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@3RU7AL
So do I.
Strange and unbelievable as that might seem.
And unjustified confidence is not faith to me.
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@3RU7AL
Many believed Jesus would lead a violent revolt that would destroy their oppressors.Obviously this never happened.
Jesus didn't simply destroy The Roman Empire, He conquored it. He got The Roman Empire to confess Jesus Christ before collapsing.
That in itself is a miracle.
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@3RU7AL
Happy new year
A first good step in that direction is finding the humility to admit that faith is not an avoidable thing in our lives.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
If people kill The Truth because they can't accept it, does The Truth really die? No it doesn't.
Much in the same way, Christ, who is God With us, was crucified, but rose from the dead.
And certainly the church itself acts as evidence of this.
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@Stephen
You don't know what we teach or believe, so the only thing you do by trying to undermine us is make yourself into a fool while simultaniously discouraging the ignorant from learning.
If you did though, you wouldn't be disputing over these things.
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According to Church Tradition, The Apostle John looked after Mary after the crucifixion. Why make that up? We even know the location of the house they stayed in.
Of what use is it to dispute these things? The intent is not to get to the truth, but to undermine The Truth.
These people who make themselves enemies of the faith do so even before knowing what we teach. It is not important to them.
The faith takes the form it does for a reason.
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@disgusted
If I answer you according to your folly it will mislead into thinking ours is a religion of facts.
No, it is a religion of abiding in The Eternal Way, and our use of created things is directed towards that purpose.
To put one's faith into a collection of facts is to put one's faith in illusory things. It should come as no surprise that this leads to delusion.
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@Stephen
You are wrong about everything.
The catechuman phase is to weed out people like you who think they know everything, and properly educate those who are humble enough to receive instruction. To prepare them.
I wouldn't call you a cynic. I'd sooner call you an uncharitable and opinionated know-it-all dipshit than that.
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@Stephen
As certain as it is that in stamping out a truth, The Truth itself is not killed... That is how certain of the resurrection one can become.
You can't kill The Truth. If the flesh The Truth takes is slain, The Truth will simply rise up in the flesh ALL OVER AGAIN.
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@Stephen
You are disputing facts that are atteted to in documents that survive since the earliest days of the church.
Your education is trash, and you are not an expert. You are as much an expert as any 12 year old with a youtube education. Just as arrogant too.
You should be educated through the church, because it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about the things that pertain to us. They are unenlightened.
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@Stephen
You are ignoring the fact that functionally, Bethany is in Jerusalem.
It is a little walk along the mount of Olives away. This is really not a distance at all, and if it were to be known that Jesus was in Bethany, it would not take long for those trying to kill Jesus to be informed. In an hours time someone could see Jesus in Bethany, rush to Jerusalem, tell the authorities, lead them back to Bethany, and arrest Jesus.
I mean, I think of all the walking I do. I frequently walk greater distances than this without even making it to the other side of town.
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@zedvictor4
Sure ultimate reality.But you have no way of knowing what that actually is.
That is in line with what we teach.
The essence of God is unknowable.
Being that this is one of the things we openly preach about God, it isn't something that can undermine what we say.
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@Athias
I am thoroughly in the church's corner.
Keeping that in mind, what you are saying is a great deal more insulting than I think you realize. I forgive you. You really don't understand us.
Keeping that in mind, what you are saying is a great deal more insulting than I think you realize. I forgive you. You really don't understand us.
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@Athias
You are representing a typical gnostic position.
You should own it instead of wussing out.
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@Athias
The writings of the church conclusively prove you false to me. I am no pagan, and I recognize enlightened teaching when I see it.
If anything, no one is preserving the faith like the Orthodox Church. You wouldn't know, because you don't know us.
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@Athias
We Orthodox are not Roman Catholic. We have never subscribed to the doctrine of Papal supremacy, and Rome trying to exert authority over the entire church is part of why it is a schismatic church. They are not Orthodox Catholics.You've already made this argument; and I've already addressed it.
You have simply dismissed the difference, and then go on to make some accusation against the Pope which even if true has nothing to do with us.
Why? Because you don't respect the subject matter. You are expressing a typical so called "gnostic" approach to undermine the church and indeed the faith itself with knowledge falsely so called.
If you respected the subject matter, you would hear from us what we believe, and not what enemies of the church falsely attribute to us.
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@Athias
You misunderstand what we do. We do not worship pagan gods.
It matters very little where the idea of swinging a censor came from. We do not honor pagan gods in our practices. We explain why we do what we do. There is no hidden agenda.
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@Athias
We Orthodox are not Roman Catholic. We have never subscribed to the doctrine of Papal supremacy, and Rome trying to exert authority over the entire church is part of why it is a schismatic church. They are not Orthodox Catholics.
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@Athias
You are looking at created things. You are confused by trying to associate the way a symbol is used by one culture and context with how a symbol is used by another culture and context.
You are confused by symbols with no innate meaning. That is incredibly superstitious.
You will never come to true knowledge of The Way like this. It is folly.
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@Athias
You don't know our practices or beliefs. You don't get to tell us what we believe. If you refuse to be corrected, I have identified you as a gnostic heretic. Aka the ancient practice of being a know-it-all dipshit.
The cure for your condition is humility and charity. Without that, you will continue to falsely believe you have knowledge, and you continue to walk in the dark.
If you were to point out that in order me to point this out, I have to take on a certain folly myself. I would tell you that I am aware of this, and may Christ have mercy on me for being a sinner. But I testify of what I see, and my intent is to correct with love. It is your choice whether to believe that or not.
I hope to represent the Orthodox position.
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@zedvictor4
Christianity is a myth based hypothesis.And Death is the off switch.And Death is the easy bit.It's all our stored data that is the glitch and in the end Christianity won't really help with our acquired fear of non-existence.Dementia is a good natural coping strategy.
It is not a myth based hypothesis. It is a simple recognition that The Truth is eternal, and so in becoming living icons of The Truth, we identify with The Truth itself.
If we truly are worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth, it is a living faith, a life of repentance. To abide in The Truth is to walk in The Way. To walk in The Way is to find True Life.
The Truth is what saves everything.
Is there any room for fear of death? No, quite the contrary. It is the embrace of death that truly gives us life. Bodily death is an inevitability, and making peace with that is making peace with God, because God is THE TRUTH. Our faith is not about deluding ourselves, it is about purofying ourselves of delusion.
But you don't really jnow our faith, you simply have a caricature of it in your head. Our faith is expressed in mysteries, parables, allegories, types and shadows. Why do we do this? Because as I have conclusively proven by my presence on this forum, people won't believe you if you speak directly. And so the mysteries of God have been cut off from those who lack charoty and humility. Instead, they will be exposed as fools for denying truth itself in mocking what they don't understand.
We know what we are doing, and we know we will be hated without cause for it. The world is wicked, and that is why it cannot receive The Truth. Though seeing, the world is blind. Though hearing, the world is deaf. Always studying and learning, but never coming to knowledge of The Truth.
It is a waste of time trying to convince someone who is enlightened to the truth of Orthodox Christianity that their religion is false, and history has shown that not only are we willing to die and endure cruel torments, but we do so non-violently and while forgiving our tormentors.
Realizing this, what else is there to do?
You will have to kill us all, because we will never repent, and the church has endured all of these things before. You think we are strangers to the pagans and godless trying to educate our faith away? It has been going on for thousands of years.
There will always be a remnant, because The Eternal Way cannot be eradicated. Even if you managed to kill all Christians, burn all our books, and erase all memory of us, The Eternal Way would be rediscovered. You know why?
Because our religion is true science.
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@Athias
But that's exactly what you're doing by including her in your prayers. You're not supposed to pray to anyone but God--especially considering your statement, "Mary was a regular woman just like anyone else..." Even if you admire her relationship with Jesus, you're not supposed to idolize it (e.g. "Mary is seen as our 'mother.'") The "Virgin Mary" is a reference to the Kemetic tale of Asset and Asar. Since Asar was his own father, Asset was said to be "immaculate." She is said have to given birth to Asar without a man, and Asar was both her consort and her son, as well as the reincarnation of his father.
We do not believe in the immaculate conception, nor do we idolize Mary.
You are simply telling me that I am wrong about what I believe and then putting forth an argument you already thought of ahead of time that is irrelevent pseudo-gnostic horseshit.
I would advise not learning about our faith.from gnostics, which as a warning to everyone, is what will happen if you get a youtube education.
Baptism is an allusion to the reincarnation of Asar (a.k.a. Tammuz, Oannes, etc.) After being thrown into the water after his death, he re-emerged as Heru, also known as Oannes also known as Dagon the Fish god. When John spoke of Baptism in the Bible, he meant only to incorporate the holy spirit. Any mention of water was rhetorical.
More pseudo-gnostic horsehit.
I hope you don't take offense at me saying.that, it isn't intended to be an attack on you. Moreso the people who have gaught you this nonsense.
This is another allusion to a pagan mystery known as the death of Baal. Baal was torn a part by wolves at the base of a mountain in one telling. His priests were known as Can (which would inspire Canaan and the Canaanites.) The consumption of the bread and wine is symbolic cannibalism. (Can of Baal.) It represents the death of Baal. It was never an "institution" established by Christ himself (But then again, that depends on which Bible you read.) The Eucharist claims to be a symbolic allusion to the last supper, and that's part of the perversion.
That is not at all what the eucharist is.
You guessed it, this is a bunch of pseudo-gnostic horseshit.
How is Easter on Sunday, if Jesus was supposed to be in the grave three days and three nights? Even if you include Friday (good Friday) it still wouldn't work out to Sunday. Easter is in veneration of the mother goddess "Ishtar" a.k.a. Inanna who was the goddess of sex and fertility. Veneration of her would start in the Spring because vegetation was associated with birth. (Her son Tammuz was also known as the God of vegetation.) Of course, she'd also demand blood sacrifices which is the reason you may notice some widespread murders are always televised at the end of April and the beginning of May. I believe the Wiccan Religion calls this, April 24/31, the "Night of Walpurgis." I think the last "sacrifice" happened last Easter in "Colombo" Sri Lanka. Comlumbia is the "American" greco-roman goddess modeled after Libertas a.k.a. Hecate (mother of witchcrafts) a.k.a. Isis, a.k.a. Ishtar, a.k.a. Inanna (one of her incarnations is also Kali Ma from Hinduism.) The "Columbine" shootings also happened around that time (April 21-31) in 1999. It's all in veneration to Ishtar.
There has never been any controversy in the church about the resurrection occuring on Sunday. Even if it wasn't, it doesn't really matter because we can construct our calendar however we want to.
This of course is more pseudo-gnostic nonsense.
I do not get my information from gnostics or neognostics. I get information from reading various books, encyclopedias, and yes, Internet searches. I'm not arguing this against or on behalf of any religion or denomination. I provide this information for knowledge's sake so that any who'd read or listen can have some more information on the context under which their rituals take place. Catholicism is pagan. You may assert that the schism creates a substantial difference between orthodox and roman, but it doesn't create enough of a difference to separate orthodox Catholicism from its pagan practices.
Most people who buy into gnostic misinformations are unaware of the origins of these lies.
You don't understand our faith at all. Point blank. If you dispute me on this, you are telling me you know better what I believe than I do. You would also be saying something about how seriously I take understanding my faith. You are also denying everything we believe and claiming we all believe something different than what we actually do.
You can imagine how that might make you look from my perspective. Instead of trying to woo me with false gnosticism, it would be better to take it on good faith that I understand my own faith and am capable of elaborating on it competently.
It should be obvious that I take my faith very seriously.
I do not qualify arguments based on the alleged intentions of their author. And I'm not trying to cast doubt on your faith. Note that I argue that Catholicism is paganism, not Christianity in its entirety. Though to be frank, most organized representations of Christian denominations sustain Luciferian customs, whether it be in a diminished or prominent capacity.
Though what you claim is false, the church is certainly in its right to take captive pagan practices and put them to the obedience of Christ. If this is how you reach a particular people, why not? All customs and rituals can become pagan when the object of worship becomes the customs and rituals themselves. Paganism is giving the adoration due to God alone to created things. That is not what we do
The Jewish worship does not stem from the ancient Hebrews or Israelites, but from the Cabala (Jewish mysticism/occultism.) Most of that which is considered Semitic derivation comes from none other than the Babylonian/Kemetic mysteries. There's an interesting book written by Arthur Koestler called "The Thirteenth Tribe"--for those who are fans of the anime "Ghost in the Shell," you may haven done research toward its inspirations which included "Blade Runner" and "The Ghost in the Machine," also authored by Arthur Koestler. In "The Thirteenth Tribe," Koestler provides an extensive research towards the origin of the Caucasian Jew and modern Judaism. They're rituals actual stem from the Khazar Empire, where their emperor converted them to "Judaism." I'd recommend reading it.
You are talking nonsense. The Church left the synagogue long before Kaballa was a thing and long before the Kazars became Jewish. This isn't a modern influence. We have been practicing the same liturgy for over a thousand and a half years. The liturgy that has been the standard since then was based off an earlier liturgy that was a great deal longer.
The point is, we know where all of this stuff comes from.
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@Stephen
You are talking nonsense. You are just making things up.
Debating with you is not profitable, because your intention is only to be subversive. You don't care about what is true.
If you make yourself beyond reproach, what is the point in debating? There is none. I am not interested in arguing with someone who is uneducated and takes themselves as an expert.
I'm sorry Stephen, I don't respect your viewpoint, nor do I respect your approach to these subjects. It isincredibly irreverent and presumptuous. You have the tact and integrity of an ambush journalist.
Happy New Year.
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If it isn't real, it isn't God, because being real is an integral identifier of God.
That being the caelse, to be in doubt about the existence of God is a tell tale sign of superstition.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The world secular means worldly.
And worldly people are indeed blind to the spirit.
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@Singularity
You don't get it.
It isn't "such and such conception or reality is the ultimate reality".
It is "The focus and object of our worship is The Ultimate Reality."
And you are confused because you refuse to accept that The Ultimate Reality is what is meant by God.
So now, you say, "of course reality exists", so you know God exists. Your issue is that you still don't recognize what is meant by the word God.
In doing so, you project your own superstitions on to me.
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@Singularity
I don't respect your evaluation. You are simply arrogant.
Deuces
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@ludofl3x
If the church didn't educate children, the alternative is that they would be educated by secularists who consider religion a mental illness.
And the end goal is so that secularists such as yourself can bring about something like The Soviet Union, and I bet every single one of you would look the other way if the government tried to stamp out our faith, even if now you pretend to be appalled.
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@Singularity
Can you say there is ultimate reality?
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@Singularity
Millions of my people were tortured and killed by psychaitric institutions under the pretext that religion is mental illness.
You don't understand me, so you call me mentally ill.
If you understood me, you'd realize that my position is the sanest position to have. The Ultimate Reality is my God. Not television videogames, sex, food, or any created thing. To me, self professed atheists who deny the gods that obviously rule their lives are the crazy ones, and you will find plenty of them here.
They are in error, and if yiu pay attention they only say what they think is convincing in the moment, the truth of the matter has very little to do with their thought process.
Niholism in the truest sense is denial of Absolute Truth. Atheism is just that. It is nihilism, and it is stupid.
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@Stephen
Who was it then that as you say "entrusted St. John the theologian with taking care of Jesus' mother Mary"?
"Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home."
And before you say that it doesn't say John directly, the chue h has known since the beginning of John.
What was transfered to John was received by the church, and so now we Orthodox consider Mary our mother as well.
The Gospel of Mark (6:3) and the Gospel of Matthew (13:55-56) mention James, Joseph/Joses, Judas/Jude and Simon as brothers of Jesus, the son of Mary. The same verses also mention unnamed sisters of Jesus.
In that culture, brothers and sisters also referred to other close kinship relations. If Mary had other children, Jesus would not have entrusted his mother to John, as that would have been the duty of a brother in the sense that we understand it today.
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For the record, The Orthodox Church does have a vetting process. The catechuman phase lasts a year or more.
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@Singularity
You are the one who is having trouble grasping reality. If you can't admit The Ultimate Reality exists, you don't even believe in reality. If nothing is ultimately real, the very concept if reality is meaningless.
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@Singularity
Yeah, the Soviet Union used to lock us up and torture us under the pretense of mental illness.
And you calling me crazy is another way of saying you have nothing to learn from me.
The truth is, if you deny Ultimate Reality, you are crazy. Or you don't understand what those words mean.
And since you are accusing me of mental illness, I have lost interest in talking to you for the time being.
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@Stephen
The Church has a far completer understanding of these things than you, because it is our business to know. We have writings that go back to the beginning.
We know it was John who watched Mary, it is a fact attested to since the beginning.
Your position on the crucifixion is simply unorthodox.
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@Stephen
Bethany is literally on the other side of the hill from Jerusalem. It's like a half hour walk.
You have absolutely no argument, you are making a fool of yourself.
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Much in the way the Hebrews were tasked with purifying the land of Canaan from defilement in order to make it a Holy Land for God, those who walk in The Way are tasked with subdoing the passions and making themselves a Holy Land for God.
The former typifies the later. The later fulfills the former.
The former typifies the later. The later fulfills the former.
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@Stephen
No.
They are going to see Lazarus, who lives in Bethany. Bethany is so close to Jerusalem that it might as well be considered ppart of Jerusalem. They want to kill Jesus in Jerusalem. Visiting Lazarus is dangerous.
There is nothing about this that is complicated or difficult to understand. It is all right there in the text. You are being obtuse.
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@disgusted
I gain nothing by being deceitful.
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@Stephen
You have no case, and your stubborn refusal to admit your mistake makes you more deserving of mockery than debate at this point. It is great folly to commit to one's errors and correct course.
This topic is over. Your original post has been thoroughly debunked. If saving face is so important to you, I advise going down gracefully rather than continuing your futile argument.
You are talking nonsense.
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@Stephen
I believe my rejection of Mohammed's testimony which was dictated some 600 years later is totally justified given that the apostles believed otherwise.
I believe that places me thoroughly in the category of being on topic.
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@Singularity
It's a matter of accepting who God is. If you love The Truth, this will reflect in your behavior..
I already demonstrated how everyone has performed the necessary experimentation to be able to see that God exists. Namely that existence itself is proof that there is an existence as it truly is.
But it was Christ who said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God."
Our discipline has a great deal to do with purifying the heart, or nous. Being capable of reason will not help you if your intents and motivations compromise your ability to see clearly or be truthful. What we do is not woo, but all very therepeutic towards eradicating delusion through the cleansing of the heart. The purer the heart, the clearer God becomes.
We strive to be living icons of The Truth, and so we understand The Truth not so much as an intellectual assent but The Way that is abided in. A lot is revealed simply by living The Truth.
But what you ask for, thinking you are being reasonable you are actually using logic in an irrational way. You are effectively saying, "Prove to me it is true that there is truth!". I am sure you have enough sense to see that this is an absurd request.
The existence of God is a given. To say, "The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist" is a self defeating and untenable position. In fact, it is such a stupid position that the scripture rightly says, "Only a fool says in their heart their is no God.". As the scriptures testify of the God I am speaking about, this is obviously true. The position of atheism doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.
Atheism is nihilism, plain and simple. If you don't believe in absolute truth you are a nihilist in the truest sense of the word.
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@disgusted
St. John the theologian was not just an apostle, but was even entrusted with taking care of Jesus' mother Mary.
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@disgusted
Mysteries are not riddles to be solved so much as they are experiences.
Go on, I encourage you to experience the mystery of faithfulness.
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@disgusted
Perhaps the best way for you to find out would be to practice faithfulness.
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@disgusted
The writings of John the theologian ARE the writings of the church.
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@Singularity
How do you worship God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength if you don't know who God is?
The Eternally Existing One is God.
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@Singularity
It is not so much my use of language so much as it is the nature of what it is I am trying to communicate. On top of that, the receptivity of your heart.
I am really only saying one thing at this point.
God speaks, and He says "I Am The Supreme and Ultimate Reality."
This is God's declared identity. He isn't lying either, God is telling The Truth. It is your choice whether or not you believe He is who He says He is.
If you can't make that choice to believe He Is Who He says He Is, you will never see it.
I am really only saying one thing at this point.
God speaks, and He says "I Am The Supreme and Ultimate Reality."
This is God's declared identity. He isn't lying either, God is telling The Truth. It is your choice whether or not you believe He is who He says He is.
If you can't make that choice to believe He Is Who He says He Is, you will never see it.
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