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@ludofl3x
Legit speaking in tongues is an actual human language, not scat singing.
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@Singularity
I'm not speaking in word salad. I am not expressing delusional things.
You are having comprehension issues, and since you lack any real humility or charity you are trying to pin me with mental illness.
And if it is against the TOS for me to acuse you of having mental deficiencies, I don't see why you can effectively do the same thing to me.
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@ludofl3x
As I pointed out, gibberish is not legit speaking in tongues.
Though, waving your arms up in their air going "Ugh! Raaah! Graaaaugh!" in frustration can be a legitimate prayer.
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@BrotherDThomas
We don't respect Mohammed as a prophet. In other words, his words were not dictated by God as those who believe him claim.
There is no conflict, unless you are a Muslim who calls Jesus Christ a liar when Jesus Christ tells his apostles thst the gates of hell will not overcome the church.
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@Stephen
Why don't you tell us the explanation you invented to justify your current beliefs, and spare us all the rhetoric.
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@BrotherDThomas
Perhaps what you call Christianity is not really Christianity. We are called to radical love.
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They were all rich. Jesus had surrounded himself with RICH influential people with business' and high positions. You can deny this fact as much as you like but your scripture makes it quite clear.
I don't need to deny anything, you are the one condemning rich people.
I am getting a bit fed up with you calling me a liar and hypocrite. Its about time you told us all what it is I have lied about and where have I shown hypocrisy. With a nice dollop of evidence to prove your claim. You never know, you might even be correct about me and I will apologies to you profusely and wholeheartedly.So, when your ready.
You are motivated by hatred, it's obvious.
You don't know what we believe, and you are wasting your time with your crusade, because you will never fool someone who is enlightened.
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@Stephen
So what? It proves nothing and simply debunks "make no graven images" , does it not. Exodus 20:4 But you Christians adorn all of your places of worship with thousands of these taboo icons and images paid for by the " poor". Marvelous how you bend the rules when it suits you.
You, being blinded by your hatred missed the point.
If your iconoclastic interpretation is correct, how do you explain the seprent Moses lifted up in the wilderness? How do you explain the ark of the covenant and the statues of cherubim on it? This was Moses himself.
How do you explain Solomon's temple being adorned with images?
These questions are rhetorical, be ause the true answer is that your iconoclastic interpretation does not stand up to the scrutiny of scripture. The 7th ecumenical council rightly declared iconoclasm a heresy.
And? So what! Moses is depicted with horns, does this make him a devil or a Satan? Although we know he too was only human.
Orthodox icons of Moses do not have horns.
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@Stephen
You have a very uncharitable attitude towards the apostles and the church.
Just know that those who show no mercy will be shown no mercy, and those who judge unrighteously will be judged accordingly.
You accuse the apostles because you are unable to fsce your own hypocrisy. Pride and self love is a deadly root that supports a tree of iniquity.
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@Stephen
@BrotherDThomas
You of all people should know that the word angle simply means messenger and has no supernatural or miraculous connotations what - so - ever
You may notice that some icons of St John the forerunner and baptist have him depicted with "angel wings". Yet, John was a human being. It is for the reason you say, the Greek word for angel means messenger.
That said, we certainly believe in bodiless powers, as does anyone with a modicum of discernment. In this age of wifi, there is no good reason to deny the existence of bodiless powers. After all, modern science has lifted the veil on some of these forces.
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@BrotherDThomas
The Orthodox Church does not recognize Mohammed as a prophet.
Mohammed said what you quoted, but Christ said...
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
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@Stephen
Well, you should just come out and say what you are thinking.
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@zedvictor4
They could tell you anything, and who or whatever pops out at the end of the process will probably believe it.
Yeah, no telling.
But all of these methods of achieving immortality that rely on created means are destined to fail in the end. At best, all we can really do is maybe extend a lifespan to seemingly immortal lengths. Ultimately, such "immortals" came into being and will one day cease to exist.
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@Singularity
Whatever those marketing it can convince you of.Would it be a transference or merely a copy though?
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@BrotherDThomas
Certainly, I acknowledge The One True God, and Allah certainly is God to Arabic speaking Christians.
However, I can not acknowledge that Mohammed is a prophet as his revelations contradict the teachings of the apostolic church. He can not acknowledge Jesus Christ and the apostles while simultaneously rewriting what we know they taught and expect us to be unnoticing. The Church has taken the preservation of this Holy Tradition passed on from the apostles very seriously.
I love Muslims, as should all right believing, true worshipping Christians. Surely God will judge them rightly, knowing what is truly in their individual hearts. The fulfillment of their law and prophet is in Christ Jesus, and what Mohammed did not see has been revealed in Christ, the author and perfecter of our faith. The Word of God incarnate, born of The Holy Spirit and the ever virgin Mary, who is rightly called theotokos. The very Lord and Son of God, Jesus Christ.
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@Singularity
Being able to explain away something does not make the explanation true.
In this case, I am not motivated by fear of death in the slightest. If I was, I would not strive to die daily. I die, sure. The Truth lives on. My identity is with The Truth.
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@BrotherDThomas
Something about the "God forbid that he should have a son" etched around the Dome of the Rock seems to give the impression that Mohammed is an anti-christ and false prophet, which is why we can't believe him.
True Islam or Submission to God is Orthodox Christianity.
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The sheer amount of schlock that one finds in evangelical/protestant bookstores in no small way contributed to me becoming orthodox.
I don't think angels can actually be caught on cameras, as they are bodiless beings.
Who knows? If this event draws those involved closer to God through repentance, it is a good thing. If not, it isn't beneficial to dwell ones mind on the miraculous, as it very easily can lead into spiritual delusion.
The kingdom of God is within, so the internal actions of the heart such as prayer, meditation, repentance and the like are more beneficial towards working out one's salvation than dwelling on external things such as the miraculous.
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@Singularity
At best, you would only be delaying the inevitable.
If even. You could take the immortal pill and die in a plane wreck the next day.
Upload your mind? Just a solar flare or glitch in the system away from death or irreversible corruption.
There is One Holy Immortal, and eternal life is to recognize who The One is, and to empty oneself in order that divine grace fill that emptiness.
In grasping for life you will end up losing it, because what you call life is in fact death. Who you think you are is actually the muck that obscures who you really are.
Those who put their faith in lying vanities forsake their own salvation. The Truth is Salvation. The Truth is what sets you free. The Truth. The Eternal Way is the path of abiding in The Truth, it is unity with God. Unity with God is Eternal Life.
So who are you really? You are made in the image of God. In cooperation with God and allowing The Holy Spirit to purify you, you are transformed more and more to not only the image, but likeness of God.
At the fulfillment of the eschaton when all things are brought before Eternity, the light of Truth will fill all things. Illusion will be exposed for what it is, and that very same light of Truth that is heaven to those who have made their identity in The Truth will be the flame of hellfire to those who preferred their own delusion to The Truth.
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@Stephen
If I hadn't already discussed these very things with you before, finding you unreceptive to the orthodox understanding, I might be more inclined to answer your questions. I don't get the impression you are open to being corrected.
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@Stephen
They are going to see Lazarus in Bethany.
I perceive you are alluding at something more mystigogical, which is fair considering John's is the mystagogical gospel.
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@Singularity
You will certainly die, and you will not be able to avoid this.
Just as you began to exist, so you will cease to be. This is the nature of created things.
Who is immortal? The Eternal Truth, for before all things, The Eternal Truth was there. At the end of all things, The Eternal Truth is there. In all things, past, present, future, The Eternal Truth is there.
What is eternal life? Abiding in The Eternal Truth, for if there is any hope of salvation at all, it is only by that Eternal Truth.
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@disgusted
Creation is a necessary medium to communicate to creatures the uncreated.
And so the uncreated takes the flesh of creation in order that through creation the uncreated is revealed.
Only by The Holy Spirit.
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@3RU7AL
The existence of God is the surest scientific reality there is.
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@3RU7AL
You should know better by now than to say God was created.
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@3RU7AL
I would like to point out that even the church in New Testament times interpreted scripture in a typological sense. This can be observed most clearly in the epistle to the Hebrews
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@3RU7AL
I certainly have confidence in the church that I believe is justified. I wouldn't deny it.
What is that confidence? That The Orthodox Church reliably preserves the Christian faith and church history. On church history, we even record the history of the heterodox!
But that isn't an unjustified confidence. I understand the church is made up of human beings. Even the Bishops who tend to be very pious people are still human beings. Ultimately, we all share the same faith. That is, in God.
So just as Jesus Christ united in 1 hypostasis there are 2 complete, unconfused, and unmixed natures, that is, that Christ is fully man and fully God, so it is with the church. There is a fleshly nature to it and a divine nature.
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@zedvictor4
The Ultimate Reality.
If you know what that means, you would have the opposite opinion. Clearly the ones who acknowledge the unknowable essence are less superstitious than those who claim to have the mind of God.
Necessarily, to know God in His essence is to know everything.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
When we say church, we are not talking about a building. Church means congregation. You are confusing a temple with church.
But we are supposed to worship God everywhere and at all times. The liturgy or common action that we come together is something we do in addition to that.
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@disgusted
All gods are created.
However, The Ultimate Reality can not be creation, or it isn't what it is.
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@Stephen
There is really nothing left for us to discuss.
You don't respect what I am telling you, and your viewpoint is obviously blasphemous from my perspective.
Your argument amounts to little more than your imagination filling in blanks, sometimes even blanks that aren't there.
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@3RU7AL
Yes, the Indians have in Brahman a legitimate name for God. Or at least, as it seems to me.
It also seems to me that the best Chinese equivalent is The Tao.
Christians in the middle east even use "Allah" for God.
And so, you aren't pointing out anything that I don't already freely point out.
But here in English our word for Ultimate Reality is capital "G" God.
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@Stephen
We don't have anything more to discuss, you don't have an argument.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
The church has left the building
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@zedvictor4
If you haven't noticed, we Orthodox don't really proselytize. You are looking at a foolish exception.
The reason you have a problem with what we teach is because you don't understand it. If you did understand it, you'd see that what we teach actually makes for a saner and less superstitious people. Anyone who abides in The Way is a benefit to all of mankind, as Christ himself is the true philanthropos, or lover of mankind.
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@Stephen
The thing is, Jesus didn't just teach in parables with words. His entire life itself was a lived out parable. That is, something is communicated by His death and resurrection.
Since you don't know what it is that is being communicated, you don't see why it does no good to dispute these things.
And really, the bible is our book. It was written by the church, it is the witness of the church, and it belongs to the church. That being the case, it is ours to interpret, and any understanding that contradicts the church is invalid.
The only thing you do by attacking these things of our faith is encourage people in their lack of effort to understand us and what we teach. Don't you think Christians are treated poorly enough as it is in Muslim countries? Why are you spreading lies that conform to the proclamations of their so called prophet?
If these things weren't difficult to believe, they wouldn't be called miracles. There is a deeper meaning behind all of it though, because as I said, it communicates something much more profound than what is seen on the surface. The church understands this. The church knows the proper use of scripture.
So really, if you are trying to do this apart from the church, you aren't respecting the subject matter. You are simply acting as a recruiter for those who would slay us.
And no, you don't see through anything. You are very much in the dark. Unfortunately, you are too prideful to ever admit when you are caught in an obvious falsehood, and always choose to double down. Not only does this make you ignorant, but weak as well.
You aren't here for honest debate. You are here to practice rhetoric and other sleazy debate tactics. You will certainly respond to this post with gaslighting, projecting, more ambush rhetoric, and the tone of an unreasonable frothing lunatic.
I would love more than anything for you to defy my expectations! If not, I will quickly grow board of you, as I have in the past.
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There are certainly factual errors in my description of the calendar controversy. It is not something I am particularly interested in. To some people it is very important. I am sure that time will sort this one out.
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I've noticed that you orthodox seem to have changed alot of things.You got trinity god.You do christmas on the 7th.You know what i mean?
We would say that that all the prophets, even Moses, believed that God, His Word, and His Spirit are One God.
The churches of Jerusalem, Russia, Serbia, Georgia, Poland and Ukraine use the old Julian calendar. One of the reasons for this has to do with the coincidence of global adoption of the Gregorian calendar and The Soviet Union trying to infiltrate and destroy the church. If you notice, most of these churches were in Soviet controlled countries. In the case of the church of Jerusalem, the formation of the state of Israel displaced a good chunk of the Palestinian Christians there. Adoption of the Gregorian calendar for the liturgical year is looked at with suspicion in these places.
Others have the opinion that using the Gregorian calendar is a concession to the Pope of Rome, who we consider to be in schism with the church.
So in these churches that celebrate Christmas in January, to them it is actually December 25th according to their calendar! We all celebrate Pascha(Easter) on the same day though.
The church has been through a really rough 20th century. There are a lot of things to be sorted out at the moment when it comes to these things. It will get sorted out eventually. I'm not worried about it.
God loves it when you guys do the " don't eat things " for him.And the eat lots of things for him.
It is best to do all things to the glory of God.
I wouldn't say we do anything for God. God does not require us to do anything for Him.
Can you enter heaven with a foreskin ?
The church does not practice circumcision. In a way, baptism and chrismation take the place of that.
Or the scriptures say, "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."
In other words, if you abide in Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter if you are circumcised or not.
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I'd try to pass the buck off to someone I think would be more competent.
If that isn't possible, I'd probably just trust everybody to know how to do their jobs while at the same time keeping an eye on things. Survival would be a top priority. Peace on the colony would be too.
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If Mad Dog Mattis were to run for president, the campaign signs would read, "Mad Dog 2020".
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@Singularity
I don't respect your armchair psychology. It is really rather asinine.
Besides, you don't know me. You admit that you have mental illness. Perhaps you should stop projecting that on to other people, it is rude.
What about me is mentally ill? My religion is worship of The Truth. Is that not the sanest religion one can have?
It sure is.
If there is anything that hints at me being mentally ill at all, it is that I continue to hang out here at the insane asylum known as the DART religion forum.
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For us Orthodox, Christmas is actually 12 days, and from start to finish there is a progressive revealing that occurs.
On December 25th we celebrate the nativity of Christ. This celebration of the birth of Christ is a celebration of God being with us in the world.
On January 1st, the 8th day of Christmas, we celebrate the circumcision of Christ. The significance of this day is that it would have been the day that Christ officially received His name, Jesus. The name Jesus means "Salvation of God". This celebration of Christ's circumcision is a celebration of God's name being revealed to us.
On January 6th we celebrate the baptism of Jesus, or theophany. On theophany, worship of The Trinity was made manifest. This celebration of Christ's baptism is a celebration of both God being made visible, and The Eternal way, which is worshipping God in Spirit and Truth, aka The Trinity.
Sadly this ancient tradition and the mystagogy that it was intended to facilitate the communication of has largely been lost by most protestant/evangelical churches, who in their zeal to seperate themselves from Roman Catholicism discarded the church calendar.
Well, to those of who still use the church calendar, it is very useful as a learning tool. Besides the fasts and the feasts, every day there is a saint to remember making it a good way to learn church history. Besides that, there are scripture readings every day that are intended to flesh out the typography of the faith and reveal Christ.
To those evangelicals and protestants who don't have the calander, you're really missing out! It is a useful teaching tool, and it brings people together.
To those Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics who have the calendar, consider making it a part of your daily life.
Sure, one could say that all days are equally holy, but lets not forget that the intent here with the calendar is to edify. It is there to make use of, so why not? If it isn't your cup of tea, that is fine, but observing the calendar is still a good practice. For some people, it helps them to be mindful of God, and what believer would count that as a bad thing?
Happy new year, everybody.
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@Singularity
Now that I am a little less miffed...
When I say "The Truth", I am not talking about factual statements. I am not talking about a statement at all (Maybe The Word of God, which is The Truth). I am talking about what Merriam-Webster defines...
"capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality"
Just as when I say God, I am refering to what Merriam-Webster defines as...
"capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality"
If you want to know the connection, since the very beginning The Apostolic Church has understood that God is The Truth, Reality in the truest sense.
And if you accept this, our spirituality makes sense because it is all about purifying the nous in order to both discern and walk in The Way of Truth.
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@disgusted
Speaking in tongues is not babbling gibberish. There is no history of this being a practice among Christians before the 19th century. Plenty of evidence of this being a practice among practitioners of the dark arts and pagans even in Ancient times.
Speaking in tongues, as it is often idiomized, refers to the speaking of other languages.
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@Melcharaz
Speaking in other languages is not evidence of salvation. Non-believers can do this as well.
The miracle that occured at Pentacost is understood by the Church as having a parallel to the tower of babel. That, while at the tower of babel language was confused among men, at pentecost people of different languages were able to understand each other.
One of the evidences that the early church would present to pagans is that the gospel is preached in every language, and Christ is worshipped in every tongue.
The Way is universal.
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I personally think it is silly to argue for God's existence. Either you accept what it is we mean by God, or you can debate about some god that isn't our God.
Scholasticism in the west lead to the popularization of these types of arguments. It also is what eventually lead to the secularization of the west. That is, the scholastic mindset.
When it comes down to it, this argument isn't going to inform you about who God is, the only thing it may do is open someone's mind to the idea of God, but possibly other things as well.
But God does necessarily exist, because God is The Ultimate Reality, and there can be no existence without this.
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@Singularity
I don't think you understand that my offense at you diagnosing me with mental illness, as if you are qualified to do so, has to do with the cruel tortures that were very specifically aimed at people of my faith by the psychiatric institutes in The Soviet Union and other communist atheistic societies in the world. China is still doing it. Not just to Christians either, but Muslims, Buddhists, and anyone else that is seen to the cult of state worship that communism really is.
Calling someone mentally ill is belittling and dismissive. Your inability to comprehend what I am saying is not proof of mental illness.
So yeah, I find it offensive. And if you want to know the truth, the world looks pretty crazy from our perspective.
Our whole discipline is therepeutic towards mental illness. I don't need to see some head doctor who was trained to see religion as mental illness. I myself spent a month in a mental hospital. I wouldn't take their drugs. They kept me there longer for refusing treatment. After keeping me for a month, they let me go. Undiagnosed. Why was I put there to begin with? After I confided in someone that I wanted to sell my things and give my life to Christ, they called the police and said I wanted to hurt myself and others. Thats a great way to skip due process by the way! The whole time I was there, I was mocked mercilessly for.my belief in God, and one time they gave me a shot of thorzeine for reading the sermon on the mount outloud to people who wanted to hear it.
The scientologists got something right about the psychiatric industry!
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@3RU7AL
Faith is not always a confidence for one. Sometimes it is a hope. Sometimes it is simply fidelity.
Faith is not always unjustified either. We go to teachers not because we know what they teach, but to learn. We go to advisers who we believe have a good perspective or knowledge. To that, we have to have faith not for no reason, but because we have been convinced that our faith is justified.
What can I say? I have faith in The Orthodox Church to teach true Christianity above all others. My faith is not unjustified, because they have been around since the beginning and have the surest claim of being the apostolic church. But besides that, I have come to know that the doctrine is enlightened.
Faith is not exclusively confidence, though it can be.
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@3RU7AL
I am willing to bet you aren't familiar with how we see things. Very different.
But yeah, Constantine overall had a positive influence in his lifetime. Emperors attempting to meddle with the church was a problem even after Constantine endorsed Christianity.
The victory is that God rules over all. God already won. Rome certainly confessed Christ before falling, and that in itself is still a miracle.
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