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@Reece101
I don't know what you are saying.
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@Reece101
The Church has always understood being made in the image of God to refer to our noetic faculties rather than our physical appearance.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Hard as it may be for you to accept, I am 100% certain of God's existence and the discipline I practice very much has to do with purifying the heart and mind so as to repel delusion and abide in The Truth.
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@Reece101
It isn't so much that God speaks as if with a human like tongue so much as it is an illustration of how everything originates in God.
In a pre-eternal sense, God spoke the word. The word existed before it left the mouth(this isn't to say that the pre-incarnate God has a literal mouth or tongue.), and after leaving the mouth, became flesh as it has been incarnate in the air as a word. Like all words, it is carried by the breath that proceeded from the "lungs of God" so to speak.
The Father is The One speaking.
The Son is The Word.
The Holy Spirit is the breath.
We use these illustrations as images, types, and shadows of the greater reality that we are witnessing to. It would be a mistake to see the hand of God as being literal hands like a man's hand rather than God's work in the world. That said, God did become man, and so we can speak of "God's hands". We can also say that the bishops and priests who administer the sacred mysteries as well as anyone who does the work of God is working with the hands of God.
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@PGA2.0
Mysteries can be explained, but having an explanation of a mystery is not the same thing as experiencing a mystery.
Having an explanation in your mind of thankfulness is not the same thing as being thankful. There is a very different knowledge.
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@David
It would be cooler if it was called "Piano fantasia in c-minor" rather than "piano improv in c-minor".
*wiggles eyebrows*
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'Perfect love' is an ideal and subject to the graven images in the heavens problem-in-and-of-itself.Love is not intrinsically good: it can be exploited esp. less knowledge of how/why.
A pure heart doesn't care if it is exploited. A pure heart sees God.
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i. I won't ask how this is consciously justified.ii. It would take a "believer" to "believe" what is untrue, is true, this equivalent to "killing" the truth which, as you say, does not die. Jesus got nailed to a cross and apparently died. Apparently, he resurrected.iii. God no more became death than any one could/would die despite not "believing" in death-in-and-of-itself: death is common, not subject to anything, but all to it, and not unique to any "belief"-based god.That people exploit fear of death is a part of the perversion of "belief"-based theology which vehemently attempts to decorate their particular trees with truths, but are actually recycled time after time insofar as the aesthetic serves. Some even have fake trees!
It sounds to me as if you believe you know better.
I assume any possible all-knowing God certainly has mine. It would know, as I do, children of God are just as one might expect a child to be: needing someone/something to hold their hand. Such a desire intensifies as one would feel alone; without guidance.Therefor, if god is said to be needing anything: it is discipline. However, humility must be tried against ones own self before any/all "belief"-based god. One can either be (honest/dishonest) with themselves before any/all considerations of god which would otherwise be distortions.
The Ultimate Reality is God. God doesn't need discipline. God doesn't need anything.
I don't believe in a "belief"-based god.It is *not* good for the sake of "charity" to believe (!?). To believe that someone is being sincere, when in fact they are being deceptive, is belief-based ignorance lacking knowledge. How many conflicts would be solved among people if only a little bit more *honesty* was shown!
I don't believe in a belief based God either. I know that The Ultimate Reality is God, and belief has no bearing on this God's existence. It exists if nothing else even does.
To give someone the benefit of the doubt when they look dishonest is acknowledging the fact that even honest people suffer delusion. Certainly, believing that someone means what they say is an act of charity when you have doubts. Even if they are delusional, they may be honest. After all, if someone is being deceived, by definition they are not aware of it. If someone is honestly deceived, what an injustice it is to not believe them! To call such a person a liar is cruel and unlikely to be met with respect. Love is superior to polemics.
Always try so-called virtues: can they be exploited? If yes: not necessarily a virtue.If one has faith in a belief-based god which happens to be false, their life will prove to be exploitation (but knowledge certainly derives).I undermine "belief"-based theology because it has motive/will/intent to deceive and exploit (ie. control).
The Ultimate Reality is not a false God.
Control is not the intent of the church. The Church is more interested in getting people to use their free will for good rather than evil. What is good to us? To love God and to love others as God loves us, as shown in the example of Jesus Christ. It is really simple. The Church is not a secular government or any kind of kingdom of this world. We consider free will to be part of what it means to be made in God's image, and so hold it in special reverence. Thst being the case, The Church is very much against the use of coercion.
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@PGA2.0
It is not simple belief or intellectual assent that the scriptures speak of, but a faithfulness. Faith being without works being dead, and not considered faith at all.
The mystery has not been revealed to all, as not all are enlightened. If the mystery was revealed to all, the scripture you quoted would not say, "but has now been manifested to His saints."
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@Reece101
God created the universe from nothing. We say that God spoke everything into existence. The Word of God itself being co-Eternal with God as God. Time came about at the beginning.I was meaning if causation/creation is temporal, how did God start to create the universe without it (time)?
God is pre-eternal, that is, the beginning and end of time itself is known to God, who is outside of time, yet in it, but not subject to it.
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Christianity is most certainly a belief-based religion.Even Dr. Bill Craig correctly stated if there was no resurrection, Christianity is false.It takes a "believer" to "believe" in a resurrection that supposedly happened 2, 000 years ago.
One can come to know and be a witness to the resurrection.
Think about it. If in your heart, you kill The Truth... does The Truth really die? If something that is true today becomes untrue tomorrow, does The Truth die?
God became even death so that it can be said truly, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.", for in becoming death and rising again, death itself has been spoiled.
It's not a mystery unless from the perspective of the child
Indeed, a child of God. You do not have God's perspective, nor can you. And so, a humility befitting of a creature of God is necessary to draw closer to God.
There is only two conscious (justified) choices when it comes to belief:Try to believe = try it for/as knowledgeTry *not* to believe = know it, as *not knowledge*
Of course, a student must believe their teacher if they hope to learn what their teacher is teaching.
It is good for the sake of charity to believe. To believe, for example, that someone is being sincere. How many conflicts would be solved among people if only a little bit more charity was shown!
Belief is not a virtue - it is needed to confuse the primordial poles of good and evil (so-called).
Belief in itself may not be a virtue, but faithfulness is. Even so much that a faithful unbeliever is seen as more virtuous than a believer who is unfaithful.
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In other words, the existence of multiple universes can be accounted for and in no way undermines reality as it truly is.Yeah, already took that into account. Still kinda ruins it though.
I don't believe it does. But besides that, I would like to point out that it is scientifically impossible to prove the existence of other universes, as they have no causal connection to our own universe. If there is a causal connection, I am not sure it could be called a seperate universe.
What would you call it other than creation from a christians perspective?
Contingent and temporal reality.
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@zedvictor4
It is less about the singing and incense than it is about being a sincere person striving for perfect love.
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@zedvictor4
Of course we have beliefs. We all do. Wouldn't deny that. Using my illustration in the post above yours, I use the example of a good father and their child. A child who believes and obeys their father will develop quicker and better learn what the father is trying to pass down than one that is dismissive and rebellious. I point this out because a lot of times we have to experience something to really know something. Belief in and trust are a choice. Faithfulness is a choice.
Say you have a good doctor. You are unhealthy and the doctor prescribes certain lifestyle changes. If you don't do as the doctor prescribes, of what use is belief? How is this even truly belief? It is dead belief. It is not enough to simply agree with something, it must be coupled with movement. With action. The patient who follows the doctor's orders is faithful. The patient who simply nods their head, goes home, and disregards the doctors orders will not reap the benefit of their belief.
If I didn't choose to believe the Christian message, I wouldn't have come to know it. Charity "believeth all things", and so if I would not have been charitable I would not have come to epignosis.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
Christianity is not a belief based religion. Certain heretics have taken the faith to be little more than intellectual assent, but the church has always recognized that the faith is a walk, not simple belief.
Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God. How can you love God with all your heart, soul, and mind if you don't purify the heart?
No, Christianity is a faith of sacred mysteries. Mysteries as we understand it are not puzzles to be solved so much as they are experiences.
The relationship between a good father and their child is a real mystery. The father knows so much, but the child knows nothing. They have to trust their father, who wants them to come to know. The Kingdom of God is for those who are like the child in faithfulness. A choice to trust. A choice to love. The charity to listen, and the humility to be taught. For God gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud.
Theophany
Theoria
Theosis
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It's not that they are necessarily intentionally hiding them, it's just that they are themselves ignorant of what they actually are. I understand Christians have an attachment to their faith, and it might be the reason should you be defensive/offensive against gnosticism (which is just a word meaning: to know).
The church wrote the gospels. The church knows what they are. I know what gnosticism means. This is why I called it "so called" gnosticism. I maintain that true gnosis is found in The Trinity.
You can't inform me of either: in agreement with, or contrary to, what I already know. I neither appeal to authority: I let truth stand in its place, even if knowing it not, but knowing what is *not* true is not in any way harmful.
Truth is the authority.
Christianity is idolatrous and derived from Canaanite sacrificial rituals: absolution of sins via human sacrifice.
Oh no, certainly not idolatrous. It does appear that way, but what the faith does in fact is address idolatry very well. I tell you, it isn't as you say.
Human sacrifice does not absolve sins. In fact, human sacrifice is an abomination.
Christ is God, The Ultimate Reality, incarnate as man, becoming death and ascending back to heaven, filling all things and reconciling all of creation back to divinity. God with us, our salvation.
And it is this humility of God becoming creation that gives us our life. For we were created and subsist on The Word of God, by which all things were made.
Actually: everything you just said applies to Christianity. Including the counter-fit part (Mithraism).
Not so much Orthodox Christianity. We all pretty much get what it is about. The things that we do differ about amongst ourselves are not the fundamentals of faith, rather nonessential NERD STUFF.
And yiu are wrong. Ours is not a faith in our own understanding. The god of gnosticism is what is called "knowledge". The God we know to be The One True God is The Ultimate Reality. To know this God and Jesus Christ is to have epignosis, or true knowledge. I say this not as someone who has only book knowledge, but experiential knowledge.
"Believers" certainly have no familiarity with Christ: Jesus did not teach he was the "belief"-of-the-way-of-the-life.I don't see any reason why a gnostic would want to be a part of any church, including a gnostic one. The word gnosis means 'to know' and that is all. It takes any/all a "believer" to become astray.Pigs whine and squeal.Sheep tend to flock.Goats climb mountains.What can you tell me about Jesus?
He is "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."
Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth, and The Life. And he is worshipped and glorified, together with the unoriginate Father and Life giving Spirit unto ages of ages amen.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
I am an Orthodox Christian. You expressed your opinion that the church was intentionally hiding the hidden meaning behind the gospels, which is that they are astrology books.
I am here to inform you that this is not true, and you should probably not educate yourself about the faith through the so called "gnostics" or youtube videos. Rather, if you are to be educated it should be with the guidance of the Church.
The so called gnostics are not Christian, they never have been. They like to use our scriptures, but their real intent is to undermine the faith in teaching a false doctrine.
The so called "gnostics" do not have a unified doctrine, they all tend to believe different often contradictory things. What unites the so called gnostics is that they practice "knowingism" or really, to put it simply... they put an awful lot of faith in their own understanding and knowledge. It is a type of self righteousness or spiritual egotism. It is counterfit.
One way the ancient church distinguished itself from those who would attempt to take advantage of people's familiarity with Christ for their own purposes is that the true church has Apostolic succession. That is, our bishops can trace their ordinations back to the apostles(Take note that this disqualifies every protestant church).
The gnostics have never had apostolic succession because they were never part of the church. My point is, you shouldn't believe what the so called gnostics teach, because they will only lead you astray.
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It ain't the only reason, but really.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
I know you don't understand my faith, but you seem to have strong opinions about it.
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@3RU7AL
Before we called ourselves Christians(which actually originated to make fun of our sacrament of Chrismation, but we took it), it was simply said that we follow The Way.
Thought you might find that interesting. Tao means "The Way".
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@3RU7AL
I am a little irked at your modification/interpretation of the words of Saint Basil.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
Knowledge is creation' is confused: knowledge is negation.
I am not confused, I know exactly what I am talking about. I would call Knowledge abstraction rather than negation. I say this because to know something necessitates the hiding and revealing of information. Knowledge is always creation. We are created beings living in creation with creation as our medium.
Any/all falsity is a contingent existence. It is temporal.
Of course. It exists as a falsity, but the defining characteristic of a falsity is its nonexistence, not its existence.
As best, with knowledge, one can dispel any/all falsity leaving only what is true, which is not-an-object (ie. 'itself' is incoherent).
The Ultimate Reality is not an object, but it isn't something to be circumscribed by the mind either. Knowledge cannot dispel all falsity, because all knowledge is false in some sense. The Ultimate Reality is true in every sense, and is greater than knowledge. Knowledge requires Ultimate Reality to exist, The Ultimate Reality does not require knowledge to exist.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
Knowledge is creation. It is a contingent existence. It is temporal.
The Truth is uncreated. It nk is not contingent on anything. It is eternal.
At best, with knowledge you can come to an image of The Truth, but it wouldn't be The Truth itself.
It is not possible to know the essence of The Truth completely, though it is revealed through the things that are made.
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3rd question: ‘our reality is wholly unique’.The potential for a multi-verse containing exact duplicate universes kind of ruins that notion.
For the 3rd question, I was refering to reality as it truly is in its completeness. Ultimate Reality. That being the case, even if there are "multiple universes", these universes which by definition are not linked to eachother in a causal manner, still find a common cause and sustenance in reality as it truly actually is.
In other words, the existence of multiple universes can be accounted for and in no way undermines reality as it truly is.
4th question: Something that is created isn’t necessarily intelligently created. If you were going for ambiguity then yeah I agree
What defines creation is that it is temporal. Reality as it truly is would be pre-eternal, that is, time finds its existence in it, not the other way around.
5th question: what do you mean by ‘the uncreated reality as it truly is fills all creation‘?
If something exists, there must be some reality to it, there must be some truth in it that gives it existence. So very naturally, even at the core of illusory reality, there must be some reality in it that even allows it to exist as illusion. Even though illusion is defined by its unreality, the reality in it is what allows illusion to exist as illusion.
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@Reece101
We can agree that there is reality as it truly is, right?
We can agree that our experience comes from reality as it truly is, exists and is existing because of reality as it truly is, and is our only way of knowledge pertaining said reality as it truly is, right?
We can agree that reality as it truly is has no beginning, has always existed, will always exist, exists without being contingent on any other reality, is wholly unique and can properly be called The Uncreated, right?
We can agree that what we perceive in our experience is that the things we observe have beginnings, change over time, have an end, do not exist on their own but are contingent, and can properly be called created right?
We can agree that the uncreated reality as it truly is fills all creation, and that it is witnessed through the things that are made, right?
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@zedvictor4
The Truth is not knowledge. The Truth is not contingent on knowing. The Truth is not data that is internally stored.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
It seems to me that you believe a lot of things.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
I know that knowledge =/= truth.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
Sometimes saying "I don't know" can really be another way of saying "I know better".
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@AGnosticAgnostic
Your claims are ludicrous and unsubstantiatable. You believe lies.
Gnosticism, or "know-it-all dipshittism" as it can be translated in English can be summed up as "Faith in one's own understanding or knowledge falsely so called."
The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church has true knowledge, or epignosis. This knowledge is experienced through the sacred mysteries.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
The gospels are actually books of astrology.... woah, that is a wild claim.
Yeeeeah, seeings how the Church has never ever believed this, and the gospels were written by the church.....
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@AGnosticAgnostic
Do you think belief is inherently a bad thing?
You seem to be awfully certain about a lot of your own beliefs.
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@PGA2.0
I wouldn't equate the universe with God. I would say that the universe is reconciled to God through the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I could even say that the universe has been in a sense deified in the process, much like how the saints have been deified in their unity with Christ. Would I call the universe God? No, it is creation, but God is in it. Would I call the saints God? No, they are creation, but God is in them. So I say there is an honor due to the universe, as it is the handiwork of God. I say there is an honor due to the saints, as they in their lives became less so that Christ would shine through them.
In both cases, the veneration is given due to a greater adoration that is given to God. Without that, matter becomes evil, and then we find ourselves committing the error of the gnostics, iconoclasts, and other such heretics. God is with us, everywhere present and filling all things.
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When you live in an epistemological blackhole, at some point you realize that even when it is easy, it is a choice to believe. You can choose to trust or love based on emotion or feeling, but you can also choose to trust and love for the sake of purity. Often times, self interest gets in the way of choosing love, but choosing love even against self interest in truth purifies you from the influence that self interest has in corrupting one's nous towards The Truth. In that way, it is actually truly better for the self to surrender one's will over to obedience of God, because the righteousness of God is superior to self righteousness and in the end the reward is greater. For it is The Truth that makes one free, not being a slave to one's impulses, passions, and desires.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
I will say I believe, even when I speak of things I know. For even after enlightened, we still say, "I believe in one God..".
The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is God.
I am more certain of the existence of The One True God than I am of anything else.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
The difference between simply believing you know and truly knowing is the difference between gnosis and epignosis.
Relying solely on the self very easily leads to plané, which is why even monastics, whose very vocation implies solitude, swear to obey and follow the discipline and instruction of an abbot. An experienced guide knows how to test the spirits, and can identify more quickly what could have potentially derailed the student from The Way.
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@PGA2.0
I am not denying the mind of God or the omniscience of God. In fact I am openly declaring it.
I am saying that nature is as the incarnation of God's mind much in the same way that Christ is the incarnation of God's word. I say much in the same way, because they are one in the same. Christ is the divine wisdom of Proverbs 8.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
You can be very certain and simply delusional. Sure, the delusional might believe they know.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
How do you know I don't know God exists? I am 100% certain that God exists. In fact, I am more certain of God's existence than anything. I can't even think of anything else off hand that I am also 100% certain.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
Don't you have to believe you have knowledge?
I still believe knowledge/belief is a false dichotomy, and I am still not really clear on what it is you are really trying to say.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
If all knowledge is belief, and all belief is ignorance, but you say knowledge negates belief...
I am not really sure what you are saying.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
Of course it requires belief too believe that God exists.
But I believe God exists, and if I didn't believe, God would still exist. I do not simply believe that God exists, I know that God exists. I do not believe that it is incorrect for me to say I believe God exists because I know God exists.
I do not accept that belief is the absence of knowledge.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
I can not say I agree with your use of language if you are saying that to say "I believe because I know" or "I believe what I know" can never be meaningfully said.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
It kind of sounds like you are saying all knowledge is ignorance. Is that what you are saying?
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"Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."
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@PGA2.0
@Reece101
So, I want you to tell me, from a universe that has no intention behind it (i.e., not created by an omniscient Mind), why uniformity of nature should continue to happen as it has done in the past and present into the future?Ignoring the framing of your question—I don’t know. I’m pretty sure the scientific consensus is “I don’t know” as well.
I think it would be more accurate to say that God preceeds mind, but the way that God manifests a mind in creation is through nature. Nature itself is as the "mind" of God. I would like to reiterate though that God is of a different nature than created things, and so God truly preceeds mind. This preceeding happens much in the same way that the divine nature of The Son preceeded the human nature. One is eternal nature, the other is temporal by nature. One has no beginning and end, the other begins to be and ceases to be. One is a completely non-contingent existence subsisting by itself, the other is contingent on time. The Divine nature is very different from the nature of creation. Yet, the divine nature fills all of creation, and these 2 natures are both distinct and complete, united with neither confusion nor division in the divine hypostasis of The Son.
But to be a little more concise and clear, I am saying that instead of seeing nature as proof of God's mind behind it, nature should be seen as the mind of God incarnate in creation. I say this because mind is of a created nature, and so the divine nature would have to proceed it.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
That doesn't really say anything. Belief in a god can mean so many different things. I am not sure what "Belief theology" means, and its meaning is not obvious to me.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
What is belief based theology?
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@RationalMadman
I would recommend that you rather learn from the church about these things, but I don't get the impression that you are willing to consider that option at this time. Of course, my impression could be wrong.
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