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@RationalMadman
So when you don't believe something, you choose instead to believe in what you can imagine?
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@Castin
Doesn't mean you understand what I am talking about though.
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@zedvictor4
Pigs share a lot of diseases with people, they eat shit, and besides, not healthy in a lot of other ways. If you want to eat them, that is your business, but you'd probably be better off without.
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@Castin
Your experience is your relationship with God.
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@HistoryBuff
I really do care about what is true. I think that if you have a problem with the guy, it should be for something that is real, not a narrative that was invented to smear him. I don't believe Donald Trump is racist. There are plenty of legitimate problems you can have with the guy that maybe I would even agree with you on. I don't believe Donald Trump is racist.
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@Castin
It is no strange thing to see our walk as a relationship to God when our God is The Truth and our way is to abide in The Truth. The struggle one has in this walk is very personal.
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@HistoryBuff
I don't think you are taking the care to isolate the many variables here that do not pinpoint race as being the reason for these actions and sayings. I think a lot of that is spin the sensationalist media pushes for political reasons.
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@Harikrish
The Jews put to death many prophets who are to this day recognized as such by all.
Some examples
"The Jews stoned Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah in Egypt, because he rebuked them for worshipping idols; and the Egyptians buried him by the side of Pharaoh's palace. The Egyptians loved him much, because he prayed and the beasts died which used to come up from the river Nile and devour men. These beasts were called 'crocodiles.' When Alexander the son of Philip, the Macedonian, came (to Egypt), he made enquiries about his grave, and took and brought him to Alexandria. This (prophet) during his life said to the Egyptians, 'a child shall be born--that is the Messiah--of a virgin, and He shall be laid in a crib2, and He will shake and cast down the idols.' From that time, and until Christ was born, the Egyptians used to set a virgin and a baby in a crib, and to worship him, because of what Jeremiah said to them, that He should be born in a crib."
"Micah the Morashthite (was) of the tribe of Ephraim, and was slain by Joram the son of Ahab. This (prophet) prophesied concerning the destruction of the temple of the Jews, and the abrogation of the Passover on the death of the Messiah. He died in peace, and was buried in Anikâm."
"Zechariah the son of Berachiah, the priest, was from Jerusalem. Joash the king slew this (prophet) between the steps3 and the altar, and sprinkled his blood upon the horns of the altar, and the priests buried him. From that day God forsook the temple, and angels were never again seen in it."
It is not in this particular text, but Isaiah is said to have been sawn in two.
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@Harikrish
That scripture you are removing from context has nothing to do with what you are claiming.
Pope Francis, who is not an Orthodox Patriarch, did not say that Jesus was a failure, he said the opposite.
"We can get caught up measuring the value of our apostolic works by the standards of efficiency, good management, and outward success which govern the business world.
Not that these things are unimportant!
We have been entrusted with a great responsibility, and God’s people rightly expect accountability from us.
But the true worth of our apostolate is measured by the value it has in God’s eyes.
To see and evaluate things from God’s perspective calls for constant conversion in the first days and years of our vocation and, need I say, it calls for great humility.
The cross shows us a different way of measuring success.
Ours is to plant the seeds: God sees to the fruits of our labors.
And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus . . . and his life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, in the failure of the cross."
What he is actually saying is that while it looked as if Jesus failed, we are still talking about him today and many have been enlightened since his "failure". What looked like a failure was in fact not a failure, but a victory.
As it is written,
"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body."
Christ at the crucifixion was the seed, thst body on the cross. The fruit of that is The Church, which is the body of Christ.
And Pope Francis is encouraging those who do much work for the faith and see very little for it not to be discouraged, because from the very beginning things looked bleak. Yet the church is still here.
I believe Pope Francis has a good preaching there, but I would like to remind you thst I belong to The Orthodox Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church which broke away from the rest of the church due to their corrupting the true faith as guarded by The True Orthodox Catholic Church.
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@HistoryBuff
No, I don't see him say or do racist things.
I don't see how calling someone a womanizing man pig is a compliment.
The core problem with American politics is that the problems this country has aren't going to be solved with politics. The problems this country has are spiritual in nature. The reason why politics is this bad to begin with is because we live in a wicked time. Eventually something is going to snap, and then we will see exceptionally wicked times.
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@HistoryBuff
Yeah, I think there is a lot of reading into, interpreting, and removing from context that can be done to make Trump look racist, but I don't believe he actually is.
Donald Trump is the greatest shit talker to take office. He says things to hurt. You gotta realize, he is the WWE candidate, he can't just let things slide. He's gotta show them the proper way to talk shit. Women care about the kind of stuff he mocks them for. Asshole? Oh yeah, totally. A womanizer? Oh yeah, totally. If you call that misogyny, fine, but I don't think Donald Trump hates woman.
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@HistoryBuff
Yeah, believe me, everyone in the country has heard all that nearly constantly for the last few years.
I don't believe Trump is racist or misogynistic, and that is partly to do with the fact that I listen to the guy myself and come to my own conclusions rather than believe the media's hysteria.
As I said, you could find a lot of bad things about the guy that are true, but I don't believe he is racist or anything like that.
Fyi, I don't think being a womanizing man pig makes you misogynistic. I think Donald Trump loves his women very much.
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@Greyparrot
I watch like 8 hours of CNN every weekday(it is what is on the tv at my work).
If you watch that much CNN, it is really hard to not catch on to what they are doing unless you are seriously gulping down that koolaid.
Also, something about having that shit forcefed to you all day makes you want to hear the other side. Or at least it does for me.
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Doesn't RM have like every medal on the site?
Why is a vote even necessary?
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@Greyparrot
Yeah, that probably had a lot to do with it too.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I understand completely, politically I feel very libertarian. That said, I don't vote. It is my way of accepting the reality that I have to live with other people's bad decisions no matter what.
I wouldn't encourage anyone to not vote though, even though part of me thinks that our elections may be a sham to begin with. Politically I am very pessimistic. I don't trust the government very much.
That said, I still love America. America is like the circus, such a bizarre country. Everyone in the world watches the circus, and I'm living in it!
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Gay couples have a lot of money because they don't tend to raise children. The LGTBQ lobby is huge. These are big donors, which is why they have such a big influence in politics.
The right minorities are interesting because Alex Jones gets them to mobilize and do things like wave "Bill Clinton is a rapist" signs on live television. Spit your coffee out kind of stuff, like "Woah, they just did that?". It is good to have a crowd so down on your side. Hah.
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@Greyparrot
Obama was really bad for the satire industry. I guess following Bush and Clinton might have contributed to this perception since there was just so much material there to work with as far as their personalities go. Obama could be pretty charming at times, but I don't think the satire industry could get past the fact that he is black. I don't really like race humor, especially in mainstream entertainment, as I don't appreciate low life culture being tied to blackness. Unfortunately, that seems to be mainstream entertainment's approach to race humor.
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@HistoryBuff
You can say a lot bad things about Trump that are true, but I don't believe he is stupid, racist, or misogynistic.
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@HistoryBuff
Well, it might be cheaper because the government doesn't have to be charged for lodging.
I dunno, I think if Trump was really that greedy for money he wouldn't be giving away his presidential salary. I think he probably would have been better off in the private sector.
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White people have a lot of variation in eye color, hair color, and such. While you will find diversity among all skin colors, I appreciate that diversity among the white skins as it seems rather particular.
White people are people just like everybody else. I don't think it is a good thing to organize based on superficial things like skin color. I am thankful that my church is very diverse in regards to ethnicity. We have a sizable Lebanese, Palestinian, and Eritrean community. Chinese, Korean, Hispanics, and such have a presence. Of course, plenty of white people, but even then a pretty ethnically diverse bunch of white people.
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@zedvictor4
Donald Trump is a way better shit talker than Bush.
Also, satire of Dubya was funnier. Donald Trump is more entertaining than the people making fun of him. The people making fun of him are so mean spirited! I dunno.
And that is really my biggest disappointment in Trump. I thought his election would single handedly revitalize the satire industry.
I do think Donald Trump more than anyone before him has exposed how the news media is political activism and propaganda rather than real news. Like, all these news stations didn't become "fake news" as he says over night, it has always been this way! But the dishonest coverage they run damn near 24/7 of the president has woken a lot of people up. Seeing so many people come to this realization since 2015 has filled me with warm fuzzies.
Whether Trump wins the election or not, I am still very concerned about the future of The United States.
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@HistoryBuff
Is the government really paying for it though or is he since it is his property?
It is probably a really nice venue, so I wouldn't see the problem if Trump was paying for everything himself.
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@ludofl3x
That is actually part of the reason it is considered the fall of man, that is, eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
We have it in us, but what we really lack is perspective. The rightful judge of good and evil is God. Self righteousness is delusion. if we have any righteousness at all it is from abiding in God. God is the righteousness in us. The Truth is righteousness because The Truth is right. Correct. Get it?
As an aside, pigs are nasty dude, have you ever heard of pig toilets? I mean even if I wasn't a vegetarian I wouldn't eat pigs. It isn't really healthy food anyway, but to each his own I guess.
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@secularmerlin
God is revealed through the things that are made. I can't say whether or not God may be revealed through me. Certainly it is possible.
But we believe as Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God".
If you do not follow The Way, it would take something pretty miraculous for a theophany to occur. It does happen though, and not all that infrequently. The frequency of its happening in no way diminishes the miraculousness of theophany.
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@3RU7AL
Well, we are panentheists. In fact, Bishop Kallistos Ware even uses that word in his book "The Orthodox Church"(good introduction to the faith by the way, frequently recommend to catechumans), and I was happy he did because it is accurate to our theology, and you don't hear that word often in the church.
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@3RU7AL
Very little to do with social instincts.
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@3RU7AL
We are panentheists. Spinoza I think was also a panentheist, though he commonly gets called a pantheist. They are different, and we are definitely not pantheists.
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@TheRealNihilist
Deism is simply the Latin equivalent of the Greek word "Theism".
Deism became a popular way during the so called "enlightenment " era for those who believed in God but not necessarily any religion or tradition about God. Because of this, the word has been taken to exclusively refer to belief in God but no religion rather than this being a particular form of deism.
Theism and Deism are the same thing.
Hint
Greek word for God is Theos. Theism. Get it?
Latin word for God is Deity. Deism. Get it?
An argument for the existence of God would be a different argument than making a case for say, Christianity, Islam,.etc.
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@3RU7AL
Creation itself is the flesh of God, for it is God's incarnation that created everything, and all of creation has been united to divinity. The 2 distinct physis of divinity and humanity united in a single hypostasis, "having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven."
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@secularmerlin
I have read the bible many times, and before I die likely many more times. I of course venerate the scriptures. The church does too. Scripture is a part of our holy tradition, and chronicles a people set apart to struggle with God. We the church inherited the scripture to learn from. We are that holy people thst struggles with God, we are Israel. We struggle because love of God naturally requires war with the self. We believe in living truth, and strive to shine as icons of The Truth.
The Truth is not an intellectual apprehension to us
It is not something learned that you can think on in your mind. It is a way of life, a real discipline. A man who memorizes a bunch of science text books is not a scientist. Likewise, it isn't having, even all the right information that makes someone a theologian. A true theologian is one who prays, and in living the discipline of purifying the heart, comes to know God personally. God is revealed, not learned. Hidden in plain site. Our faith has a great deal to do with hidden things and revealing them. Making the invisible visible. Bringing about apocalypse or revelation.
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@secularmerlin
We do not take the bible as an idol before God. We know what it was written for and how it is supposed to be used. Those outside the church will only confuse themselves trying to understand the faith by taking scripture out of its context, which is the church.
I have read the bible many times, and before I die likely many more times. I of course venerate the scriptures. The church does too. Scripture is a part of our holy tradition, and chronicles a people set apart to struggle with God. We the church inherited the scripture to learn from. We are that holy people thst struggles with God, we are Israel. We struggle because love of God naturally requires war with the self. We believe in living truth, and strive to shine as icons of The Truth.
The Truth is not an intellectual apprehension to us
It is not something learned that you can think on in your mind. It is a way of life, a real discipline. A man who memorizes a bunch of science text books is not a scientist. Likewise, it isn't having, even all the right information that makes someone a theologian. A true theologian is one who prays, and in living the discipline of purifying the heart, comes to know God personally. God is revealed, not learned. Hidden in plain site. Our faith has a great deal to do with hidden things and revealing them. Making the invisible visible. Bringing about apocalypse or revelation.
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@secularmerlin
The Ultimate Reality is God.
You say The Ultimate Reality has the appearance of being mindless. I say that God could just as easily appear to have a mind that manifests itself as natural occurrence. This is no strange thing, and is certainly less superstitious than how you likely take God having a mind to be.
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@3RU7AL
The Ultimate Reality is incomprehensible, however likewise, we know what that means. It is because we know God through The Word made flesh, which is God with us in creation, but not circumscribed by creation.
Incomprehensibly is not whhat defines noumenon. Being originate in the mind is what defines noumenon.
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@Harikrish
We will all certainly be brought up on the last day, when death itself will be conquered by The Truth and all is revealed as truly is in God, as it is written "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
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@secularmerlin
We Orthodox don't take our scripture as the "one revealed truth". We would say it points to The One Revealed Truth. We would also say that Jesus Christ is not only the fulfillment of the Jewish law and prophets, but all religion. At the end of the road is Christ, who is The True Way
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@secularmerlin
Surely, God is The Singularity, there is none like God, and I am a witness to eternity. I have seen the resurrection, and I know The Ultimate Reality is God, the origin, sustainer, transformer, and end of all.
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@secularmerlin
It's all arbitrary. The measure is yourself. Therefore, you are never missing the mark. That is what I am getting here.
To that, I believe this.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
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@3RU7AL
God certainly is independent of the mind, and is therefore not noumenon, which by definition is NOT independent from the mind.
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@3RU7AL
You are misunderstanding me.
Not whether or not something is true or false, but the very ability to tell the difference between those two things. That alone right there.
You know that truth is reality, falsehood is unreality.
And surely you can tell, because as a human being you have inherited the knowledge of good and evil. Besides, you demonstrate that you know the difference.
I have given you enough information for you to be able to discern at least some sin. It's really easy. It becomes hard when you really start examining yourself the influences, motivations, passions, etc. that effect your ability to see the truth clearly and honestly. That is our discipline, cleansing the nous.
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@Harikrish
The Truth has to die in order for your illusion to persist.
Yet, The Truth is eternal.
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@AGnosticAgnostic
It requires belief for you to use language. You have to believe words have meaning.
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@secularmerlin
I'm afraid your story is losing my interest. Perhaps you should speak plainly about what you are really saying.
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@zedvictor4
The point is that you have some innate ability to distinguish reality from unreality. This ability can be exercised and improved much like any other ability.
The entire point of Orthodox discipline is to become a living icon of The Truth. A pure nous is more honest and sees more clearly than a defiled one.
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@secularmerlin
Not particularly relevant. The point is that the difference between truth and falsehood is discernible. You know what truth means. You know what falsehood means. You can tell the difference between these two. You know that if you say "The coin is under this cup" and it is not, what you said is not true.
At some point, you are going to have to accept that to believe anything is a choice, and if you find yourself in the epistemological black hole, it is because you chose to put yourself there.
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@secularmerlin
In otherwords, like this topic, it's all meaningless.
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