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@Stephen
The creed of the church might help explain the distinction of Christ...
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father; by whom all things were made:"
Jesus Christ is The Word of God, or The Truth.
"Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."
The grand point here is that, as Saint Athanasius put it.. "God became man so that man might become God". That is what we call theosis. Not to become God in essence, but through cooperation with divine energies. The Christ in us, or even, putting on Christ through our baptism.
So there is a distinction between The Son of God, and even a peacemaker, who will be called son of God according to Jesus. Jesus is special.
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These rebels in the middle east like to kidnap our bishops. Seems to be a problem.
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It is an act of great mercy by governing authorities that sexual deviants aren't executed, because in every way they are destructive to society.
Sexual behavior is a choice.
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@Stronn
I was about to say, there are a lot of Muslims who are big on numerology and the Koran.
In fact, one time I aquired a Koran at a mosque that had an introduction explaining some of this stuff.
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Kind of reminds me of "the bible code" that was popular a few decades ago. I don't really think scripture is intended to be used like this.
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@keithprosser
David was King when the later happened, and as Nathan the prophet said, it was this action the lead to all the division and turmoil that plagued the rest of his reign.
And to this day, just as Nathan also said, this will be a stumbling block to those seeking God.
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@TheRealNihilist
I am the only Orthodox Christian around here.
I think that is worth pointing out.
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@TheRealNihilist
Homosexuality was punishable by death in ancient Israel, so the idea that David and Johnathan were involved in that way is ludicrous.
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@n8nrgmi
You might find this informative.
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@keithprosser
@TheRealNihilist
Obviously homosexuality is not condoned by the bible.
The bible is certainly not for the godless to interpret to begin with. Rather than reading scripture and relying on your own understanding, it would be better to be educated the proper way.
Go to an Orthodox Priest. Ask questions. Read recommend books. Sit through some liturgies.
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@BrotherDThomas
Your words are vain, heretic. It would be better for you on the day of judgement if you ceased being a stumbling block to those who blaspheme God on account of your unrighteousness.
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"No. For that all Scripture is divinely-inspired and profitable {cf. 2 Timothy 3:16} we know, and is of such necessity, that without the same it is impossible to be Orthodox at all. Nevertheless they should not be read by all, but only by those who with fitting research have inquired into the deep things of the Spirit, and who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and in fine read. But to such as are not so exercised, or who cannot distinguish, or who understand only literally, or in any other way contrary to Orthodoxy what is contained in the Scriptures, the Catholic Church, as knowing by experience the mischief arising therefrom, forbiddeth the reading of the same. So that it is permitted to every Orthodox to hear indeed the Scriptures, that he may believe with the heart unto righteousness, and confess with the mouth unto salvation; {Romans 10:10} but to read some parts of the Scriptures, and especially of the Old [Testament], is forbidden for the aforesaid reasons and others of the like sort. For it is the same thing thus to prohibit persons not exercised thereto reading all the Sacred Scriptures, as to require infants to abstain from strong meats."
Are the Scriptures plain to all Christians that read them?
"If the Divine Scriptures were plain to all Christians that read them, the Lord would not have commanded such as desired to obtain salvation to search the same; {John 5:39} and Paul would have said without reason that God had placed the gift of teaching in the Church; {1 Corinthians 13:28} and Peter would not have said of the Epistles of Paul that they contained some things hard to be understood. {2 Peter 3:16} It is evident, therefore, that the Scriptures are very profound, and their sense lofty; and that they need learned and divine men to search out their true meaning, and a sense that is right, and agreeable to all Scripture, and to its author the Holy Spirit.
So that as to those that are regenerated [in Baptism], although they must know the faith concerning the Trinity, the incarnation of the Son of God, His passion, resurrection, and ascension into the heavens, what concerneth regeneration and judgment — for which many have not hesitated to die — it is not necessary, but rather impossible, that all should know what the Holy Spirit manifesteth to those alone who are exercised in wisdom and holiness."
(From the confession of Dositheus)
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So the conclusion here is that it is not fit for unbelievers and heretics to interpret scripture. Scripture belongs to The Orthodox Church, and it is what The Church teaches about scripture and its meaning that matters.
Indeed, all Christian heresies make use of scripture. Yet, they twist scripture to conform to their false doctrines. Likewise, atheists and other unbelievers use scripture to avoid understanding what we really believe, instead arrogantly telling us what we believe.
Yet our religion is simple and pure. Our religion is loving God, and loving mankind who is made in the image of God.
And The Orthodox Church is the very church of Jesus Christ and The Apostles, the church that all others can be traced back to deviation from.
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@BrotherDThomas
The OP already makes it very clear that he only accepts his interpretation as valid, so I am not going to waste my time.
Go ahead and refute the OP yourself if you care to. But I don't believe you do care, you are obviously some subversive atheistic caricature of what an idiot thinks a Christian looks like.
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@zedvictor4
A healthy blood pump has little to do with the heqrt I am speaking of, and the heart that is relevant to this topic.
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You were not trained in Christian theology or Islamic fundamentalism. You are the type of spiritual egotist that is typical of your tradition.
You have revealed your superstitious, superficial, and incorrect understanding of Christian theology time and time again. You are simply arrogant.
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@Harikrish
You must not have a very good memory, because I have told you several times that I am an Orthodox Christian, and we don't recognize the Pope of Rome as a bishop.
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@WyseGui
No amount of sophistry can disprove or cast into doubt into The Ultimate Reality, and this is what is meant by God.
You can plug up your ears and wish it wasn't so all you want, but this merely a reflection of your unwillingness to confront The Truth.
Instead you would rather mock, scoff, and make pretense that you know better. You certainly don't.
God is Real.
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@Harikrish
The Church disagrees with you, and they are the authority on this matter, not you, a subversive armchair theologian.
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@Harikrish
There is no argument against The Ultimate Reality, you are talking nonsense.
You can do nothing apart from God, you couldn't even exist. While you do indeed blaspheme, in the end you mock yourself, and not God. For on the last day when the light of Truth reveals all as it truly is, the futility of your arrogance before the one who created and sustains you will be revealed, and these lies you identify with will be as the rotting flesh that clings your sorrowful bones.
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@n8nrgmi
Yes, you did say you believe scripture supports this view. I got that part.
Maybe what I am really asking is if you believe that Jesus Christ is God.
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@n8nrgmi
How can you call yourself a Christian if you don't believe Jesus is God?
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@zedvictor4
There shouldn't be anything contentious about purifying the heart.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
The gospel is very simple.
The Truth sets you free. Love The Truth over all things. Abide in The Truth.
It's very simple.
But even when it is spoken plainly, none of you believe. Instead you blaspheme and being deceived, you deceive others. The unfortunate side effect is that people die over these things.
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@keithprosser
people quarrel over the meaning of stories made up by men long ago and written to further their own selfish interests.
Given what Christianity is, this claim does not make sense.
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- Yes, that's of course allegorical, it's an expression. God is obviously *not* -literally- nearer than your jugular vein. There are plenty such verses in the Quran, such as "the Hand of God is extended", it doesn't actually mean that the -literal- hand of God is extended. It's just a metaphor for bounty & generosity as the Arabs say, meaning: 'God is Bountiful'. It means God's Mercy is everywhere.
We certainly believe that God is omnipresent. You don't because you don't believe in the incarnation. But I tell you no lie when I say that if The Ultimate Reality did not encompass even the reality of creation, God would not be what God is. For you to say that God is not omnipresent is to say that there is reality outside God.
So yes, we believe that God is literally omnipresent.
John is not an apostle
He most certainly was, and he was the only Apostle who was not gruesomely martyred. They tried to boil him alive, but he survived. He lived in Ephesis, which came to be called "The city of the theologian" of whom Saint Timothy was a bishop. John had the distinct honor of taking care of the ever virgin Mary after Jesus' crucifixion. Both John and Paul were pious Orthodox Christians. The writer of the Gospel of Mark was one of the 70 sent out by Christ, and the first Christian church was in his house. He helped spread Christianity to Egypt, and he was Appointed by Peter as bishop. Matthew was made one of the 12 by Jesus Christ himself, having formally been a tax collector. He was burned to death for preaching the gospel. Luke knew Jesus Christ in his life, and was appointed among the 70 that were sent out. Luke was tortured and hanged to death by pagans for preaching the gospel.
- Again with John quotes. Of course you'll find such quotes in John. We too call Jesus (pbuh) the word of God, as in the creation of God ('He said, or it is'). That doesn't make him God! You have yet to address all the other things I said.
One of those quotes was John, and I used it to tie in to a quote from James The Just, who was thrown off the temple and beaten to death for confessing Christ. The other quote was a psalm of Asaph.
The question is, can we check wether these authors are reliable? Can we check the veracity of their texts regardless of their reliability?
The Church has recognized these books as reliable since the beginning, and that made finalizing the canon of The New Testament a great deal easier, because these books had universal acceptance in the church. These books are fit for liturgical use.
If you don't believe that Christ sealed the church with The Holy Spirit, I don't know what to tell you.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
There is only One Ultimate Reality, One God. We agree on this.
And you know, there are probably a lot of things we do agree on.
But Muslims do not understand Orthodox Christianity because their prophet said things about what we believe that aren't true. That being the case, one can not expect superstitions to be expelled over night.
They in effect accuse us of being idolaters for worshipping a man as God, but that isn't actually what we do. We acknowledge The Ultimate Reality as God, just as they do.
However, we Christians do not accept their Mohammed as a prophet.
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- This is a self-contradictory statement.
And so you deny your own scriptures which testify, that God is nearer than your jugular vein.
We have a similar expression from our scriptures, thst God is nearer than our breath.
- Why are all these exalted statements which fit the Church's narrative always appear in John, the last of the 4 Gospels, & in no other of the great number of gospels
Because The Gospel of John is a Mystagogic gospel, and the other 3 are for catechesis. This is also reflected in our liturgical year. Yet even at the beginning of The Gospel according to the Apostle Matthew..
"Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
- Yes, just like the Quran says. Jesus (pbuh) designated as 'the soul from God & His word', given his miraculous birth. We don't go around claiming Jesus IS God because of it... The Bible also refers to other characters as 'Son of God', why aren't you calling them gods too?
Ceartainly, it is even written, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations."
Jesus Christ is unique in that we are talking about "The Word of God" by whom "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.", that "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth"
When we speak of Jesus Christ, we speak of The Truth, and how it's incarnation is necessary for all things to exist. When you speak of Jesus, you speak only of a man.
- Again, this -THE most foundational doctrine of Christians- is only found in John, & in none of the previous gospels. Why? Because he made it up, or took it from someone who made it up.
Yet it was you who said that you respect the Apostles as saints. Surely, the Apostles believed as John, but in denying John, you are contradicting yourself and sccusing John of idolatry.
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@Harikrish
Lies and nonsense.
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- Even if we suppose Luke wrote Acts, he has never met either Paul or Peter. In fact, he contradicts Paul's own accounts. & that's the thing, no one of these characters has proof or testimony through unbroken chains to corroborate their supposed accounts & claims. Why are the sources of such foundational doctrine so unreliable & always written in implicit ambiguous text?? We believe in Twheed, a doctrine that's asserted virtually on every page of the Quran.
Again you are showing your ignorance of our religion, Yassine. Luke did personally know Paul, he traveled around with him for 2 years.
We certainly believe that God is One and Indivisible.
- Then, show me. But I will tell you, you can't, because it doesn't exist.
From the earliest days of the church, apostolic succession was seen as a mark of the true church. I will give you the same answer, ask a Bishop and they will show you their credentials. Apostolic succession certainly is a reality, and my directing you on how you can find out for yourself is not at all evidence against what I am claiming.
- Ghassan had many sects... by the 6th century, most Christians in the Middle East did indeed believe in the divinity of Jesus (pbuh). Many other didn't.
Well, their beliefs contradict The Apostlles, The Church Fathers, and The Church itself. Denying the divinity of Jesus simply isn't orthodox.
- Supposedly, & then he rejected the Law. The thing is, many of these 'heretical' or 'gnostic' gospels (such as the Gospel of Thomas, & the Gospel of Judas) agree with the Islamic account of Jesus & Mary (pbut), yet later on rejected by the Church in favor of other gospels ascribing some level of divinity onto Jesus.
They were rejected because we know where they came from. They were not written by the church.
I will of course point out that I believe Mohammed was a false prophet.
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@Yassine
- If God is everywhere, then he is bound by space & time, which makes him un-god. Panentheism is an incoherent self-defeating belief.
Filling all things, but outside of it as well. God is certainly not bound by time. Or as we say, God is pre-eternal. That is, eternal in a timeless sense.
- So Jesus is just like everyone else, resurrected & risen to heaven for eternal life...
Jesus Christ IS the resurrection, as it is written by The Apostle Peter who also quotes The Prophet Isaiah...
"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."
And in the words of Jesus Christ...
"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."
- Where? What is the proof for any of this?
Without recognizing who Jesus Christ really is, it would be impossible to prove this. You say Jesus Christ was simply a man, a prophet. Well, He was not simply a man, He is The Word of God made flesh, and as is written by The Apostle John...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not."
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@Harikrish
Sounds irrelevant. Just like this topic. You should probably move on to other things.
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@RoderickSpode
We Orthodox certainly understand salvation as a cooperation with God. Not that we are saved by works, but that as you said we can reject or squander God's grace. Not faith as in simply believing, but faithfulness, because faith without works is dead.
The doctrine we have of theosis refers to this cooperation with God's divine energies. Or as John the baptist says, "I must become less so He becomes more.". Let Christ rule our life. Jesus being savior is easy for people, the Lord part is hard!
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@BrotherDThomas
I am assuming that you are talking about the TRUE Christian God named "Yahweh/Jesus/Spirit
If "Yahweh" is simply The Father of The Trinity, how is it that...
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."
This is an incorrect understanding of The Trinity you have.
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@RM
Blocking everyone who upsets you only feeds into the perception that you are petulant and immature.
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@Yassine
- So, Jesus is the incarnation of God on Earth, & is also part of the creation
There are two natures of The Son. Fully Divine, fully man. The man part is creation, because God became creation. The incarnation effectively deifies creation, uniting it to God in the fleshly nature of the hypostasis of The Son.
This is not the same as pantheism, that is, saying the universe(creation) is God. We are more accurately described as panentheists. That is, God is everywhere present in creation, but pre-exists creation. Is of a distinct nature. Uncreated rather than created. In fact, God's word even pre-exists time, being co-eternal with The Father. God is present in creation through His Word and His Spirit.
It is the incarnation of God that gives creation its reality.
- How can Jesus -the god- conquer death?! If he was god incarnate in man, then he can't die to begin with. If he was man raised to god, then he isn't divine to begin with.
Not god, God. The persistent reality is Christ. The Divine nature does not die, it is the fleshly nature that dies. For the present to exist, the past must die. For the future to exist, the present must die. But Christ is here past, present, and future, and all of creation rises along with Christ, united to His flesh. On the last day, all of creation will be resurrected, and the light of Truth will shine through all revealing everything as it truly is. In doing this, death is abolished.
It is written by The Apostle Jesus loved, Saint John the theologian, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
The second death being the death of death. That is why we say that the divine glory of God on the day of resurrection is both the light of heaven and the fire of hell. It is both eternal life and eternal death. Eternal life because to abide in God is to abide in life. Eternal death because to abide in delusion is to abide in death. As it is written by the Prophet King David, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.", and so the light of Truth conquers death, for death has no dominion over The Truth. Yet all are resurrected, either to glory or shame. There is no escape from God.
Jesus Christ not only taught in parables. His entire life, from his conception in Mary the theotokos' womb through his crucifixion and resurrection was a parable.
And so Jesus Christ fulfills all the law and the prophets. The one they point to is Him.
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Ghassanid Kingdom accepted the council of Chalcedon, so they were indeed Orthodox. They would have honored Paul.
One of the amazing things about Paul is that before his road to Damascus experience where he witnessed the riisen Lord, he was a persecuter of the Christians, and very zealously so.
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@Yassine
I'm sorry Yassine, you are badly informed. Saint Luke wrote the Acts of tbe Apostles, not Paul. Paul did not corrupt the faith as you falsely believe. We know what we believe, and heretics are not arbitrarily identified. They are identified as such because they contradict the teachings of the Apostles, who Jesus Christ trusted with the Church that the gates of hell willl not overcome. We know where these heresies originate.
We do not worship a man as God, Yassine. If this was the case, why would Saint Paul himself write,
"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man"
The Apostles surely vetted Paul. He was certainly Chrismated by them. He did not corrupt the faith.
As I said, if you don't believe every bishop can be traced back to the apostles, ask one of them, not me. They will show you their credentials.
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@n8nrgmi
I'm surprised you think there is no standard of authority, or that we make assumptions about what the church teaches.
Maybe you don't really know how we do things.
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@n8nrgmi
Iranaeous certainly did not believe in Papal supremacy, and neither did the patriarchs of the other churches. That is actually part of the reason they are no longer Orthodox. Another big one is that they altered the creed of the church, which was ruled at not just 1, but 2 ecumenical councils to lead to anathema. The creed of the church cannot be altered except by another ecumenical council.
It isn't that I am ignoring the evidence as you say that the pope of Rome is the leader of the church, it is that the Orthodox Church never understood primacy as supremacy.
When Rome broke away from the Orthodox Church, there were effectively 4 other "Popes" or Patriarchs more accurately. The Pope of Alexandria, the Patriarch of Constantinople, Antioch, and Jerusalem.
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@n8nrgmi
If you are not baptized or Chrismated as Orthodox, you are not really Orthodox.
Would you consider becoming an Orthodox catechuman?
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@BrotherDThomas
Clang clang
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@Yassine
Paull was an Orthodox Christian, certainly a saint, and pillar of the church.
But if the church was a Pauline Order, Saint James the just, Bishop of Jerusalem, would not have had the final word at the first council of the church, a council that both Paul and Peter were present for.
Paul did not found many of the oldest and most important churches.
The opinion that Paul corrupted the church is an opinion that heretics came up with to justify their existence of their sects outside of the Holy Orders of the church.
The so called "gnostics" tend to find both Paul and the Holy Apostle John the theologian obnoxious to their false beliefs.
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@Yassine
God manifests Himself in creation through His Word and Spirit. This describes how God relates to man and how we relate to God.
The Word is Truth. Surely, God is The Truth.
The Holy Spirit is The Spirit of Truth. Surely it is The Spirit of Truth that enlivens all things.
If it is The Spirit of Truth that comes from The Father, through The Son, and reveals The Father to us through The Son, what ellse can The Father Be?
The Son is The Most Perfect Image of The Father.
The Son is God incarnate in creation. That is, God with Us. The Truth.
We are not simply talking about prophets when we speak of Jesus Christ, we are speaking of The Word of God made flesh, dwelling among us. That through His death and resurrection, Christ conquered death by death bestowing life to those in the tombs, drawing all creation to Himself, and uniting it to Him.
Eternal life is to know The One True God, and The One sent, Jesus Christ.
You know as well as I do that The Ultimate Reality is God, and there can only be One. It should also be apparwnt that our relationship with The Uncreated is through the medium of creation as created beings. The Flesh of The Word is creation.
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@Yassine
- The apostles of the Church do not have a direct ordination from Jesus (pbuh), they never even met him.
That is a very strange thing to claim considering in every gospel they are recorded as having been selected personally by Jesus, and the church even knows where they went to preqch and how they were martyred.
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@BrotherDThomas
Clang clang
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@BrotherDThomas
It is evident that you are masquerading as a Christian in order to draw hatred to us. You should be ashamed.
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@BrotherDThomas
You should feel ashamed of yourself, masquerading as a Christian in order to draw hatred towards us.
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