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It is good to be celibate, but not because procreation is immoral.
In fact, antinatalism, that is to say it is immoral to have children, is definitely immoral.
I am a vegetarian. I am not a vegetarian because eating meat is immoral. It is not immoral to eat meat.
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@TheRealNihilist
The fool always thinks they are outsmarting everyone.
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@BrotherDThomas
Obviously one set of instructions was for a time.
You are not reasoning as a Christian, but as an agent of discord.
Repent.
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@WyseGui
That is the type of response I would expect from an immature and insecure person, not a wise guy.
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@keithprosser
You are going to see what you want to see.
Anything but the truth.
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@TheRealNihilist
Nonsense
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Even the devil quotes scripture As is shown in the temptation of Jesus in the desert.
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@BrotherDThomas
Satan is literally the accuser. You are going around accusing others.
Before anyone called you a fake Christian, you were accusing others of being fake Christians, unjustly I might add.
Truly you are judged by your measure.
Where is Satan here? It should be obvious.
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@WyseGui
Neognosticism is in an upswing because we have a generation of know it alls. Very attractive to those who think they know better.
One of the oldest recognized heresies.
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@BrotherDThomas
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@keithprosser
@BrotherDThomas
Arabic speaking Christians say "Allah"
It is actually pretty disrespectful to say God's name without reverence for the meaning. The Name is not an arbitrary pronouncement of syllables. It has meaning.
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NOW YOU ARE STATING THAT OUR JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE CONTRADICTS ITSELF?!
That is what you are doing by pulling a passage out of context and falsely calling it the last command Jesus made to his disciples.
My quotation comes from the same Gospel.
You have repeatedly shown in this topic that you don't read your bible.
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@BrotherDThomas
This is not how Christians conduct themselves.
Repent.
Repent.
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@BrotherDThomas
Jesus' final instructions to his disciples couldn’t be any more specific: “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, ‘Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” (Matthew 10:5)
You know that at the end of the gospel sccording to Saint Matthew(actually chapter 28), Jesus said..
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen"
I don't believe you are a real Christian or even trying to be one. I think you are pretending to be a Christian in order to make Christians or Christianity look bad.
If you are trying to be a Christian for real, I suggest you find an Orthodox Church and talk to the presbyter.
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@keithprosser
Christianiry was illegal for the next few centuries, so it isn't like it was any different for Christiams.
And The.Church is not "the.gentiles". The church is Jew and Gentile. The Church is Israel, that is certainly what we believe.
Certainly though, no perversion of scripture makes it acceptable Christian behavior to do anything but show charity to others, especially those who are in err.
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@keithprosser
You are confused because you aren't accepting that this is what God is, The Ultimate Reality.
Instead you are trying to reconcile your understanding of Christianity's God with The Ultimate Reality.
If you don't know The One True God, how can I even begin to tell you of Jesus Christ who He sent?
If you can at least accept that The Ultimate Reality is God, and that God surely exists, we might be able to get somewhere with your request.
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Sexual Intercourse is not considered immoral by Christians
It certainly isn't!
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@zedvictor4
God isn't stupid, but he gave you the ability to choose to be stupid.
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@keithprosser
Maybe you should get an Orthodox education, you will only get further confused by the heretics.
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@3RU7AL
The Ultimate Reality is a legitimate translation of that name.
Another English translation of thst name that is even used in liturgy is "The eternally existing One."
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@zedvictor4
You don't really understand what we believe, so you aren't speaking from a place of knowledge.
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@keithprosser
There is nothing Christian about hating Jews, Thomas is missing the context.
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@BrotherDThomas
The answer is in the next verse
"Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost."
Under Roman law, Jews were not allowed to proselytize or accept converts. Christians attracted a lot of negative attention because they both proselytized and made converts.
So the earliest persecuters of the church were the non-Christian Jews, because they saw it as a survival issue. All of the Jews would be blamed for what these Christians were doing.
As it was written in the Apostle John's gospel(chapter 11 verses 49-53)...
"And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death."
So why did the bible passage(actually written by Saint Paul) disparage the Jews in the scripture you pointed out? Because they were supposed to be a light to the gentiles, and instead they put the light under a bushell.
Now when I say, what do you think a real Christian looks like, I am not talking about physical appearances.
You keep calling me unchristian, but as I said, you are not in communion with the apostolic church. So if you want to keep going that route, know that I am unphased by your accusations.
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@zedvictor4
The Truth doesn't change.
Nothing will suffice as proof to the faithless and wicked who deny The Ultimare Reality as existing.
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@keithprosser
You have no hope of understanding what it is I say unless you accept that God is Reality as it truly Is. Everything about Trinity has to do with our relationship with that.
So what you are in fact requesting is an unreasonable demand. If you are faithless, how can I overcome your disbelief?
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@Yassine
Considering I believe Islam is a Christian heresy, I do not believe that killing Muslim apostates is acceptable.
As long as you are threatening people with death for coming to the true faith, you are surely on the wrong side.
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@Yassine
Ok, so you believe in God's word.
Do you believe in God's spirit?
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@Yassine
I'm really just making a joke, because people who are diagnosed as mentally ill get 1000 bucks or so from the government.
Aka the crazy check.
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@Yassine
So wait, instead of paying taxes to the government, the government pays me taxes?
That sounds crazy. If America elects this guy, tgey will certainly deserve their crazy check.
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@keithprosser
The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is God.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that this would be a name of God in English.
I say a name because we have many names for God.
The Hindus would probably say Brahman or Om, something like that.
But God means The Ultimate Reality. This is not the same thing as a god.
In fact, an error of atheism is that atheists do in fact have gods, but like the alcoholic who denies having a drinking problem, the atheist denies the influences and passions that rule their life. Someone can deny gods all they want, but if their entire life is centered around playing videogames or collecting comic books and comic book paraphernalia, it is really easy to see what their gods are. To the idol worshipper, these things can be said to hold supreme value.
So when the atheists deny all gods and even God itself, they are simply ignoring the gods that they do bow down to, and the God that can cure them of their idolatry.
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From the acts of the Apostles chapter 7 verses 51-60
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."
So what do you think a real Christian looks like, Thomas?
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Note that only one of these definitions specifies capital "G" God as having a meaning distinct from lower case "g" god.
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Full Definition of God courtesy merriam-webster...
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3 : a person or thing of supreme value
4 : a powerful ruler
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@keithprosser
Definition of God courtesy Merriam-webster...
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality:
So no, you are the one who is wrong, capital G refers to the Ultimate Reality, and Merriam-webster backs me up on this.
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@keithprosser
You believe in the existence of God.
Your conception of God is not what you think the Christian God is.
If you believe there is Ultimate reality, you believe God exists whether or not you acknowledge this is God or not. The Ultimate Reality is what God means.
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@BrotherDThomas
If you don't really know the bible, why are you shouting down at everyone? If you knew the bible, you would recognize my quotations.
I do not feel pressured by your egging me on. Quite the contrary.
It is written by Saint James the just and brother of the Lord in his namesake epistle, chapter 4 verse 6...
As well as the holy, glorious and all-laudable Apostle Peter in his namesake 1st epistle chapter 5 verse 5...
"God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."
It is also written of by the Apostle John the theologian in his first namesake epistle, chapter 4, verse 20...
"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"
So in you hating me, I can discern that the truth is not in you.
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@keithprosser
If you are not accepting what is meant by "God", you are doing as I say. These are not baseless accusations.
Then, not accepting what it is we mean, you go on to try to figure out our theology without accepting the basic fundamental.
The fact that you think you can understand us this way is patently delusional.
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@keithprosser
Considering that sexual immorality is normalized, sure, they won't. They won't see anything wrong with "shagging".
But it is immoral, and contraception is a way to get around this by mistaking utility for morality. It doesn't make sex outside of marriage moral.
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@keithprosser
We can't actually have a real debate because in continuing to dispute over the meanings of words, you are refusing to engage in the subject matter.
That is why this is what you get.
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@keithprosser
Your aversion to reality does not negate it.
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@keithprosser
Modern norms of what constitutes sexually moral behavior is in fact immoral, and I think that people ignore this because it isn't what they want to hear.
There is a reason why marriage is an institution, to us Orthodox even a Holy Mystery, a Sacrament. This is not an arbitrary thing. Or worse yet, a system of control that some radical feminists may assert.
Sex outside of marriage is immoral. It causes a lot of problems. Trying to circumvent these problems through birth control, std testing, etc does not fix the problem. Lessening the emotional invetlstment through insensitivity training does not fix the problem. Fixing thenproblem is the wrong approach.
Nip it in the bud. Sexual immorality is the real issue here. Self centerdness.
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@keithprosser
I love Muslims, but it is impossible to detach theocratic dictatorship from the religion. If Muslims were to seize power where you live, they might force Christians and Jews to pay protection money(which is truly what every government does anyway), but they would likely kill you for being a godless blasphemer.
And really, they don't trest Christians and Jews thst gre as t either most of the time. Also, apostssy from Islam is punishable by death, so it kind of discourages conversions.
While Christianity was from the get go established as a Kingdom not of this world, Islam is very much a seculsr government, a political ideology taking the form of religion.
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@Stephen
I know a clergyman in the church who was sent to seminary in the middle east(The Antiochan Church is actually based in Damascus right now).
He was talking to a Muslim Imam over there, and it was brought up that there were good Muslims in The United States, and a town was mentioned that was all Muslim. The Imam responded that they were not good Muslims, because if they were good Muslims they would have already militarily taken over the state.
Needless to say, this was a shocking response.
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Keith is simply doing what every atheist has to do in order to have an argument. They turn God into a conception of God. If they don't do this, they have no argument.
But God is not a conception. God is The Ultimate Reality.
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@keithprosser
This is why you can't understand our theology, you try to understand it without accepting the premises.
The Ultimate Reality is God.
There is no amount of lawyer nonsense that will make atheism anything other than a foolish or badly informed worldview.
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@keithprosser
You can call it emotional rhetorical nonsense.
I will still call it child sacrifice.
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@keithprosser
The dogma is fact. We speak of what we know.
If there is no ultimate reality, there can be no reality. It is very simple, and obviously true.
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@zedvictor4
Well, you are wrong.
The Ultimate Reality surely exists.
It is not blind faith that gives knowledge.
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