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@ludofl3x
I am not being unreasonable, ludofl3x. Of course you aren't going to see the consistency in what we believe, the holy spirit isn't with you.
You are welcome to speak to me as a reasonable adult rather than a petulant and weak child.
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@RoderickSpode
What he is really saying is "my judgment has nothing to do with truth, just what sounds nicer to me."
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@ludofl3x
Yet it is written in Paul's second letter to Timothy, "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes."
Don't blame me for resisting you when you are being rude and haughty. All I am asking of you is that you engqge me in a manner that is conducive to discussion.
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@ludofl3x
What is the point of wasting my time and effort writing up a large argument for you that you aren't going to read?
You don't really care. You are content to dismiss Christianity all together. Real Christianity is not important to you.
I mean look at you, so quick to hurl abuse my way. This in itself is evidence that the truth isn't in you. It is a sign of your immaturity and unreasonableness. In fact, I predict that instead of correcting your behavior and engaging me like an adult, you are going to double down and continue to hurl abuse my way while defending yourself in vain. Maybe even try to turn it around on me.
Well, if you do as I predict, this conversation will be useless. If you adjust to the right attitude, maybe we will have a fruitful conversation.
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@ludofl3x
Orthodox Christianity is incompatible with protestant denominationalism or "nondenominationalism" which is oddly enough just denominationalism without discernment.
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@ludofl3x
Perhaps you are not truly interested in knowing, which is why you think there is no way to know.
Spoiler alert, it is The Orthodox Catholic Church.
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@Outplayz
Sexual immorality leads too unwanted children.
Abortion is child sacrifice, it is an abomination.
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@ludofl3x
Notice that all the problems are in deviation from Christ rather than Christianity itself.
That is why it is a fallacy to judge Christianity based on the failures of those who practice it improperly.
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@keithprosser
Roman law prohibited Jews from accepting gentile converts.
The split between Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity about survival, because Christians would not refuse a gentile convert, and would even actively prosletyze to them. Before this, gentiles would sit in the back of synagogues and listen if they were interesred in Judaism, but they weren't allowed to become Jews. We certainly do not believe God changes. In fact, a lot of false beliefs that are spread about this subject by protestants can be refuted by reading the prophets.
Of course, the non-Christian Jews of the time ended up angering Rome anyway. It has been said that the martyrdom of Saint James the Just by certain Jewish authorities during a period of relative anarchy offended the Romans enough to set the wheels in motion leading to the destruction of the temple in 70 ad. The Romans and even the Greeks before always had a difficult times with the Jews because the Jews wouldn't adapt to their abominable customs and bow to their idols.
Today, modern Jews are kind of like our cousins. Our form of liturgy in Orthodox Christianity is based off of what was done in the synagogues in the early days, so we are still very similar. Of course, we see ourselves as being the true Israel, and don't really respect the modern Jewish claim to this. We still love them though, as we love even those who curse us, and hope that one day this schism will be healed and we will be one body.
It really comes down to Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, Jews are not really taught the Jesus we believe, who is truly the God of their scriptures. The Jesus they believe is not really the Jesus we believe. Kind of like you atheists, they only see at best a man. They don't see the God that took the form of a man.
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@croweupc
The Ultimate Reality exists.
To say that God doesn't exist is a stupid and self defeating proposition that not only doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, but deserves the most severe of mockings.
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Really though, people who argue deceitfully have to break posts up into chunks so they can remove what is said from proper context.
If this is not a deceitful way to argue, it is a sign of immaturity, a sign of not being able to listen to what someone is saying before trying to rebut them.
This is a fruitless argument, because Omar is just wildly throwing shit against the wall instead of trying to understand what he is arguing against.
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@TheRealNihilist
You are accusingg me of arguing deceitfully, so I am not interested in what you have to say.
MY RELIGION IS OLDER THAN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.
You are arguing semantics. I am telling you what we believe. Your disputing over words does not interest me.
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@David
Socialists are very anti-religious. Socialism has been overtly atheistic since the beginning.
I guess what I am saying is, it seems to me that as a Jew, socialism would be the furthest thing from being desirable.
How is socialism compatible with Judaism?
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@TheRealNihilist
The Truth is God.
Merriam webster says "Supreme or ultimate reality"
Oxford says "Supreme Being"
These two things mean the exact same thing if understood correctly.
Your definition is invalid because it has nothing to do with what we mean when we say God.
And I will repeat, my religion is older than your language. You cannot change what we mean by changing the meanings of words. We know what we are saying, because we have 2000 years worth of writings that make clear what we are saying. Really, writing that goes back a thousand yesrs earlier still!
So your argument is invalid. It is invalid because you are trying to apply a false definition to what we mean. You are also interpreting our religion through your worldview, which was specifically formulated through sophistry by those who hated Christianity and wished for its demise.
You yourself say
"Good is subjective"
What that means to you is that good is an arbitrary thing, and you can say, "To say God is good is an assumption, because I don't like reality the way it is."
Well, if you don't accept God as the standard for good, what you call good is in fact EVIL. There is nothing good about embracing delusion, and if you think good is whatever you arbitrarily say is good because of some subjective whim, you are certainly in delusion.
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@TheRealNihilist
You are not arguing as one who is trying to understand. Youu are arguing as someone who is trying to refute.
I don't respect your argument.
By the way, you aren't refuting anything. You are wrong.
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@zedvictor4
The Ultimate Reality has neither beginning or end, so you are mistaken.
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@disgusted
I don't know about any gods, but here is a parable of Jesus...
"For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
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@disgusted
Robbing people who have more than you because you covet their wealth is not ethically consistent with my faith.
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@disgusted
Forcing other people to share does nothing for their heart.
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@croweupc
I seems to me that you are too busy discounting me to really get who I am or my faith.
That is certainly your right. Just don't expect me to believe you have an informed outlook.
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A generations long process of indoctrinating the youth into socialist ideals makes it a lot easier. I wouldn't call "liberals" stupid, I would say they are deceived. The ones deceiving them are very organized and clever.
I don't think most "liberals" are aware of the fact that the people they are rooting for are working towards taking over the country. These people are not really on our side.
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@croweupc
I don't get the impression that I live in a Christian culture. The culture of nominally Christian pagans is hardly what I would call Christian.
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@rosends
We don't really believe in branches of Christianity. You are either Orthodox or you are outside of the church. The Orthodox Catholic Church is as we say, The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Since there is one church, we can't acknowledge other churches as legitimate. Technically they are heretics. They also confuse things an awful lot, because they only superficially believe as we do and there are a lot of them. We have a very different experience.
But to get back on topic, we Orthodox don't put nearly as much emphasis on the suffering of Christ so much as the resurrection.
Basically, what we are explaining through the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ is how God, the persistent reality, has united all of creation to Himself, past, present, and future. That, temporal created reality, though perishing, is forever preserved by God as it truly is. So that, even in death God is present. All of creation is reconciled back to Him.
Something that needs to be understood about the historical Jesus is that he did not simply teach in parables, his entire life is a parable as well. That is, there is a mystagogical meaning behind the whole thing. One that points to the eternal Jesus Christ, The Word of God. If you know Jesus, seeing Him everywhere is no strange thing. Christ is with us even now. Because when we speak of Christ, we are not speaking of a man who lived for 30 odd years a long time ago, but God. When we speak of the incarnation, we are not simply speaking of that man who lived for 30 odd years, we are talking about God in all of creation.
Because God is present in creation through His Word and Spirit, filling all of creation with His divine energies. He is nearer than your breath.
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@rosends
I could of course, tell you the same about Orthodox Christianity, and you certainly have been wrong about things we believe before. I am not offended.
From what I have been told, Temple Judaism does not exist anymore, and so the priesthood is not really a thing. There are people alive today who would be able to resume that role should the temple be rebuilt.
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@croweupc
If I was raised Orthodox, that would not make your argument any less a product of your dismissiveness.
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@croweupc
I was raised by sex, drugs, and rock and roll. The fact that I am an Orthodox Christian of all things would not have seemed very likely given the environment I grew up in and lived in during my pre-Christian years.
Orthodox Christianity does not have a big presence in The United States.
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@rosends
No one is claiming the Aaronic priesthood. The Rabbinic Judaism that by the way, is not temple Judaism, does not even have a priesthood.
God is obviously king, even you should know this.
We The Orthodox Catholic Church certainly do have a priesthood(it is not the Aaronic priesthood, though in the earliest days of the church there were many Aaronic priests who converted), technically we are all priests. What people usually identify as priests are in fact presbyters, which are elders and leaders of the community. The Church is not intended to be a secular government, so secular kings do exist. Even they, as you I am sure agree, only have their authority insomuch as it has been granted by God.
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@croweupc
You presuming to know what I believe when you don't is arrogant.
Spare me of your "I know you are but what am I" nonsense. You have no ground to stand on. You were raised by heretics, were involved in heretical churches.
You don't know real Christianity.
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@TheRealNihilist
I certainly am going to appeal to our holy tradition because this topic is about my religion.
If you adjust your attitude and maybe also show some respect to the subject matter, I will gladly pick up where we left off.
Do you want to know what we believe or are you here simply to argue? I do not respect your argument.
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@rosends
Jesus Christ certainly isn't a priest in the Aaronic priestly sense.
The real thing here to take home is that The Word of God is our king and high priest, not a man here on Earth.
Do we still have Earthly kings? Certainly, under God. Do we still have priests? Certainly. But we do not have a man here on Earth as a supreme pontiff. This is actually part of what makes Roman Catholicism a heretical offshoot of Orthodox Christianity(in case you were curious, because Orthodox Catholicism often gets confused with Roman Catholicism despite us having a very different experience).
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@keithprosser
@rosends
"A Psalm of David. The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.The Lord shall send out a rod of power for thee out of Sion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.With thee is dominion in the day of thy power, in the splendours of thy saints: I have begotten thee from the womb before the morning.The Lord sware, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchisedec.The Lord at thy right hand has dashed in pieces kings in the day of his wrath.He shall judge among the nations, he shall fill up the number of corpses, he shall crush the heads of many on the earth.He shall drink of the brook in the way; therefore shall he lift up the head."Brenton Septuagint Translation, 1884.
God is both our high priest and king.
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@croweupc
I disagree with you that buddhism is more profound. There is nothing buddhism offers that is not completed in Orthodox Christianity.
You don't know what the bible is used for, it is not yours to interpret.
Perhaps you sre not aware of the fact that by dismissing me as indoctrinated, you are making use of one of your built in defenses to keep you from questioning what you believe. Yes, it is clear to me that you believe ridiculous things about my faith. In fact, it is evident that you think you know my faith, because when I explain my faith to you, you ignore my explanations and go right back to dismissing me as indoctrinated.
Well, you being arrogant does not in any way make me feel less secure about my faith. I know what I believe. You don't.
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@TheRealNihilist
My religion is older than your language.
That definition you are using is for "god", not "God". It is not accurate to what we believe.
The definition you are using for good is, as I said, an arbitrary thing as what is "satisfactory, enjoyable, pleasant, or interesting" are all subjective judgement calls.
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@keithprosser
We certainly speak of what we know. We also know that to take God as anything but good is to miss the mark.
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@TheRealNihilist
If you don't believe in God, good to you is an arbitrary thing to begin with, so I would argue that your reasoning is foundationally perverse.
What do you say good is? Obviously you have a different understanding of the concept, which is why you are asking for evidence.
But let it be noted at this point we are not talking about the OP anymore, because the OP has been thoroughly addressed. We are simply examining your misunderstanding.
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@TwoMan
@3RU7AL
Does a word spoken exist without the breath that carries it?
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@TheRealNihilist
We define good by God.
Good to us is abiding in God.
That being the case, if you accept what I am saying, your question is clearly unreasonable.
Apodictic truth.
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@TheRealNihilist
The logical conclusion of your approach is "Prove to me that it is true that there is truth!"
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@TheRealNihilist
Orthodox Christian theology is expressed in apodictic truths.
What that means is that these are not philosophical conclusions, but that which is self evident.
That being the case, you are asking the wrong questions.
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@TheRealNihilist
Because The Ultimate Reality is God, and good is that which is true and right.
This is part of what I mean by you being educated in such a way as to undermine Christianity. It is not that I am indoctrinated. It is really quite the opposite. The people who worked out your education despise Christianity, so they are indoctrinating the population with newspeak specifically designed to make what we believe unintelligible.
The example I point out the most is God, which actually means "The Ultimate reality". How many atheists accept this as being what the word means? Obviously if they knew this and accepted this, they wouldn't be atheists.
Another example here is "good". To most people, good is what seems nice, beneficial, or whatever aligns with some arbitrary sense of aesthetics. That is not how we understand good. Even Socrates was closer than those today when he said 'There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.'.
The point is that Truth is what determines good. Without Truth, there is no good. That being the case, it follows quite naturally that being good is about abiding in The Truth.
We orthodox Christians worship The Truth as God.
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@TheRealNihilist
Your education was specifically engineered to undermine Christianity.
That being the case, you will not understand me unless you show me some charity. Please grant me this patience.
God is what makes something good. It isn't a matter of personal aesthetics. The way western philosophy(and maybe even heterodox Christianity) understands morality is not how we Orthodox Christians understand morality. God is good, and so what is good to us is abiding in God. We call this conforming to the divine energy of God's grace "theosis".
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@3RU7AL
Kant invented a philosophy specifically to undermine Christian theology, which is why you associate God with noumenon.
His philosophy was made with the intent to be subversive.
Kant was an unenlightened boob.
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@TheRealNihilist
The Truth is good.
There can be nothing good without God. There can't be anything! How can nothing be good?
God is not contingent on anything, so to say that God requires there to be any thing would be a fallacy.
How do we understand morality? To love God with an undefiled intellect. God is The Truth. Sin, which literally means "to miss the mark" always obscures one's ability to abide in The Truth.
So to abide in The Truth is good. To abide in sin is evil. Just as righteousness(being correct, true) is good, and unrighteousness(being incorrect, wicked) is evil.
There is no real morality without God. Without God, what can you have? Personal aesthetic, which is by nature arbitrary.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I am a fool for Christ's sake. It would be a lot wiser for me to not be here at all. Maybe even shake the dust offf my feet.
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The OP is blocking me because he'd rather debate jobbers.
For something to be good is to be right. Correct. True. Well founded. Cogent.
As The Truth is God, how can God be anything else?
It is not an assumption that God is good, there is no good without God. Of course God is good.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
They are all very different from eachother. Pretty much every end of the nominally Christian spectrum. Calvinists and Wesleyans have very differwnt ways of looking at things. Then another one I go to is a lot more mix bag because it is actually the cooperation of many different churches to have a Sunday event for those who live outside and don't feel comfortable going into church buildings.
The hymns we sing in the Orthodox Church are not like what they sing in other churches. They often times are different every day, and they are intended to teach the faith. It's moreso for the benefit of those going to church than for God.
Giving money to the church helps pay the staff, building maintenance, and the building of other churches. A lot of clergy are not paid very much anyway, sometimes having to take up other jobs. No one has to give money to the church, and shamefully, a lot of those who go to church don't. However, it does help a lot. No, God doesn't need money. However, money does help keep things running smoothly.
See, you are not into it, so you think it is a big joke. If you cared about these things, it would not be a big joke to you. I don't think it is funny at all. We are living in a very evil time, and because of how far away society has removed itself from God, we are really heading towards a dangerous place. The lack of reverence, hard heartedness, and toxic cynicism that I witness fills me with sorrow. My people perish for a lack of knowledge, and it is truly a sad sight. I wish better for them.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
I go to at least 3 different churches a week, a lot of times 4.
I get around a lot.
Only one of which is Orthodox, but I am definitely Orthodox. I do a lot of work with churches in the area, because there are still things we can work together on.
It is not really necessary to read the bible to be Orthodox. If you find scripture confusing, don't worry about it.
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@triangle.128k
Thankfully, Orthodox Catholicism managed to stay intact against the coercions of the heretics because of those who were by the grace of God brave enough to stand for the true faith like Saint Mark of Ephesus!
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@Outplayz
"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar."
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