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@PGA2.0
I am not Roman Catholic, I am Orthodox.
The church has always taught synergism.
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@PGA2.0
I'm not really disputing anything in your second post.
But the idea that at a moment in time you are saved and then from that point on you can't fall away is not only not what the church teaches but is even kind of silly. That is always how I was taught once saved always saved.
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@PGA2.0
It is written, "we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."
It is also written "this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
It is also written "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
Also, to be totally frank, John Calvin was a heretic.
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Would you, as a church going parishioner, oppose this rule, or support it? Why?
No, I oppose it.
Its against what Jesus says not to let children go to church.
What else do you want?
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@ludofl3x
Do you just want us to state the obvious?
Yes, church membership would likely go down.
Now what point do you think this proves?
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Personal salvation is the restoration of our original communion with God.
That communion has not only been broken with those who call themselves Christians.
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@ludofl3x
Too much attitide, not listening.
Don't believe you care.
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@ludofl3x
You don't really get how we do things, you are simply beimg arrogant about your presumptions.
This is an unteachable attitude.
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@ludofl3x
No, i just think trying to teach someone who thinks they know better and isn't willing to be corrected is a waste of time.
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@PGA2.0
Oh we certainly don't believe we save ourselves. It is God who does the saving.
Imagine you are drowning and Jesus holds out his hand to lift you from the water. You have to grab for his hand. You can choose to smack his hand away. God respects our free will.
So we do have a part to play. The church elaborates this in the doctrine of synergy.
We also don't really look at salvation as a one time event in life, but something to work out our entire life. There is no discipleship without discipline.
Once saved always saved is a Calvinist doctrine that the church has never taught.
I don't believe Calvin even believed in free will.
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@ludofl3x
Ok mr know it all, since you lnow so much, I suppose you have nothing to learn from me.
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@ludofl3x
We are actually really good at discerning prelest in the orthodox church.
You really must think we are stupid or gullible to even suggest that we would hop to follow through on some random vision in a dream simply because the one having the dream claimed it was Jesus. If a bishop told us to worship Satan, he'd probably get chucked into the river along with losing his position.
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@ludofl3x
There are cultic practices in a religion. The religion itself is not a cult.
As I said, you are confused by newspeak.
Also, I am not Roman Catholic, I am Orthodox. I belong to the Antiochian church, not the Alexandrian church. No pope. We don't celebrate mass, we have divine liturgy.
And yes, the liturgy itself is an example of a cult within orthodoxy.
You don't understand our religion. You equate the cult with the religion itself.
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@ludofl3x
I already explained to you that it is against our religion.
Why don't you posit the hypothetical scenario of the priest or even bishop calling us to worship satan or sacrifice children?
You are drawing conclusions based off of nonsense you are imagining out of ignorance.
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@ludofl3x
If your priest in your orthodox temple or whatever said in whatever worship service you had, "I prayed so hard last night and when I was sleeping, Jesus came to me in a vision and told me this was the best thing to do," wouldn't you have to abide by it? Why not (since I am guessing your answer is no, because it's not the ULTIMATE REVELATION or something)?
The answer is actually no because a priest doesn't have the authority to make those decisions to begin with.
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@ludofl3x
As I said, not happening.
/topic
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@ludofl3x
Still sticking to your guns eh?
It is pride month or something right?
No, there is a difference between religion and cult.
A religion is a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. A cult is formalized religious veneration.
They are different.
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@ludofl3x
Cultic practice is simply formalized religious veneration.
The debate you all are having about cult vs religion is a manifestation of bad education as is the projection that "no one can differentiate between the two in any meaningful or consistent way."
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Funny how we Orthodox have no issue acknowledging that we have forms of cultic worship while everyone else is made averse because of newspeak.
Maybe to you all the difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real estate the church in question owns.
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@zedvictor4
No, it is very easily verified when it all clicks. See, when I make the claim that our theology is fundamentally apodictic truth, that means that when understood itnis easy to have faith in because it is so obviously true that there is no room for doubt.
So if it is non-sense to you, that means that you are presuming to understand it when you don't.
But it seems to me you are caught at the very first step. You are in doubt about whether there is an ultimate reality at all. If you can't see that it is impossible for there not to be an ultimate reality, and that denying the ultimate reality is self defeating, I probably won't have much hope of demonstrating to how "Only a fool says in their heart there is no God".
Theism is not a theory. What is theism about?
THE IS
Because God IS THE IS.
Theism is all about WHAT IS.
Because God is WHAT TRULY IS.
If you are denying God, you are embracing the most extreme form of nihilism which is a denial of any absolute truth, and by inference all truth. It destroys itself.
This is not really a topic on the existence of God though, it is a topic about Christology. I don't want to veer too far off that.
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You might be thinking of SEX.
There are actually 3 sexes. Male, female, and David Bowie.
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@Sparrow
That is not very mature, and is quite condescending. My viewpoint is not an arbitrary one.
I understand this is a sensitive subject, but I will not be shamed or bullied into silence because there are some who would rather hear what they want to hear rather than the truth.
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I believe that people have a great deal more control over what they find sexually attractive than what the lbgtq+ people would have you believe.
It is a choice.
Not only is it a choice, but there is a right choice.
Sexual immorality in all its forms is in every way destructive.
Even though I sincerely believe this lifestyle choice is evil, I certainly do not hate those who have been deceived into buying into it. Quite the contrary, I love them as I love anyone else.
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@Stronn
But earlier you said that the Ultimate Reality precedes existence. Something preceding itself is what I find incoherent.
I don't believe I would use such language, but whether I did or not, let me clarify.
The Ultimate Reality is literally existence in the truest sense of the word. It is the most real.
What I am saying is that all OTHER existences have their existence from it, and there is no OTHER existence that came before it. Time itself is an existence that comes after The Ultimate Reality. That being the case, time can exist within God though God does not change. God exists in time through the incarnation, but the incarnation does not mean God ceases to exist outside of creation.
I think it is important to note that the incarnation itself is what gives reality to created things.
I attempt to practice critical thinking when evaluating arguments. Part of that is playing devil's advocate and attempting to pick apart and refute said arguments. It's not dishonesty, it's healthy skepticism. Solid arguments should welcome such scrutiny.
I've got no problem with you scrutinizing or asking question, I just hope that you believe me when I correct you. You have to some extent trust that I know what I am trying to communicate and so give me the benefitnof the doubt if I say that you aren't understanding properly. If you can give me that charity, I will do the best I can to help you understand properly.
You have to believe that my intention is to educate, not puff myself up or put you down. I'm sure it'll be fine, you are being reasonable.
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@Swagnarok
Even in the early days of the church, there was the apostolic church, that is, the church whose orders descended from the ordinations of the apostles. One of the distinguishing marks of the true church is apostolic succession. This is important, because even in the early church, yes ,there were other religions who claimed Christ. Apostolic succession was seen as an important thing that distinguised the true church from the churches of heretics.
There is only one "protestant" church that can claim apostolic succession. The Anglican church. The Anglican church has this apostolic succession from the Roman Catholic Church it broke away from. The Roman Catholic Church has its Apostolic succession from The Orthodox Catholic Church which it broke away from.
The nature of The Roman Catholic Church's schism has a lot to do with them changing essential matters of the faith that were agreed on by the entire church, things that on multiple occasions during the ecumenical councils it was said change to these alessential things would lead to anathema, or a curse. So it wasn't that The Roman Bishop was booted from the church so much as they rebelled from the church.
Protestants revolted against the schismatic Roman church understandably(because at that point, the corruption in that church had reached its height) but they never returned to The Orthodox Church. This is also somewhat understandable because the west was isolated from the Orthodox Church during this time, as we The Orthodox Church were mostly under Ottoman rule at the time and persecuted heavily or isolated geographically and politically.
The main problem with protestant Christianity is that after breaking away from the bishop of Rome, they threw out a lot of what was important with it. At the same time, they retained much of what was error in the Latin church.
The protestant reformers themselves were not saintly people, and a lot o lf their bad influences on western non-catholic Christianity stuck. Protestantism has been splintering endlessly ever since.
Meanwhile, The Orthodox Church is still practicing the same liturgy as the ancient church. We remember the saints. We have their writings and make them available rather than hidden. The doctrine the church teaches is pure and enlightened. We still understand the Mystagogy of the faith.
Protestantism is simply not the church. I spent much more time in protestant/evangelical evangelical land, and now after knowing the truth and seeing the real church it would be impossible for me to go back.
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Does everyone in the Orthodox church believe that a true Christian can lose their salvation?
If someone falls away from the faith, did they ever really believe to begin with? I don't know.
Are they not saved by virtue of not being in the Orthodox church?
The church and for very good reason tends to shy away from making judgment calls about whether or not someone is saved. That goes for both those who are in the church and those who are outside the church. Christ did show mercy to the thief on the cross.
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I never did understand white people feeling guilty because some other white people did bad things.
Like, weren't most white people under the control of crazed despots through most of history? Why blame all white people for the things their oppressors did in history?
What is really stupid about this is that you even have white people who escaped Europe because of oppression, only to hide in the hills and then later get blamed for what their oppressors did.
This is crazy.
Also totally racist. Anyone who buys into all this prejudice identity political race garbage is racist.
But truthfully, and I mean this. The way media treats black people is the worst. Especially in the news media. Everytime some turkey comes up there claiming to represent thhe "black community" or the "black viewpoint" I roll my eyes. What a load of presumptuous, prejudice, racist trash. Black people are just as diverse as any other people.
I am of the opinion that the real racists are the ones going around accusing others of racism. You know, the same kind of people who came up with "white privilege" as if to fan the flames of envy. The same ones going around talking about "the black vote" or "the hispanic vote".
You know what the truth is? People are so lazy and incompetent in todays world that if you work 3/4 of an ass and don't bitch about it, you'll be a super hero. Don't let the losers drag you down to their level. Its not hard to make it in the world. Most of the war is psychological. You get over that, you can do it.
And to those who look down on the poor and disadvantaged for being crippled by this psych warfare, show some charity. Instead of being a jerk about it, help somebody in the right direction. Be edifying or something, sheesh.
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@Goldtop
Yes, a shameful thing it was when Roman Catholic crusaders sacked Constantinople.
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@Goldtop
You are making things up goldie, none of that is true.
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can you give me an example of something you might be at variance with?
No.
Does everyone in the orthodox church agree on the doctrine of eternal security (or OSAS)?
This is a Calvinist teaching, and we have never had such doctrine.
Are you saying there are exceptions within the evangelical/protestant churches?
Sure, there are some who know God. Doesn't change the fact that they aren't with the Christian church. They have an incomplete faith.
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@Stronn
I get the impression you have made up your mind before hand, because statements like "Maybe you can reconcile these fatal flaws, but I doubt it." seem to hint that you are not really here to learn.
This is not the attitude of an honest Inquirer.
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@Stronn
Creation =/= existence
The Ultimate Reality is by definition existence
I already addressed your time question.
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@Goldtop
The Orthodox Church never waged any crusades, never had anything to do with the inquisition, and your accusations of "current slaughteringns of muslims" is baseless and offensive accusation considering we are to this day persecuted very heavily in the middle east BY MUSLIMS.
Muslims who would kill you for denying God, by the way.
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State enforced anarchy can only make sense to someone who denies God.
Because, you know. Everybody gets free stuff when 99% of the wealth is consolidated into the hands of THIS 1%. Because we know this new 1% is more likely to not be greedy sonsobitches with it than the last 1% that had it.
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@RoderickSpode
I personally don't think there will ever be a universal agreement amongst the Body of Christ on the major doctrinal differences (even within the Orthodox Church).Do all members of the Orthodox church agree on absolutely every doctrine?
The things we might be at variance about are the kind of things that aren't doctrine. We pretty much agree on doctrine.
Do you think salvation depends on believing the right one of each?
I don't think it would be right of me to say whether or not salvation is contingent on knowing, but I will say that it is written...
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
And these are the words of Jesus.
We know what we teach, while most evangelical/protestant churches don't even seem to know the God they profess to worship. I say that as someone who has a lot more experience as a protestant/evangelical than an Orthodox.
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@RoderickSpode
Different beliefs about the nature of the eucharist. Homosexual marriage. If works is important to salvation. Whether textual criticism is mutilating scripture or not. Whether babbling in gibberish is a gift of the holy spirit or of the devil. How worship should be conducted.
There are so many things that I couldn't make an exhaustive list.
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@Stronn
What you should be saying is that it is incoherent to you. If you really want to see how it is coherent, speak to me with the intention of finding that coherence. If your intent is simply to dismiss the whole thing out of principle, we are not going to have as good of a discussion.
Pre-eternal is not simply a name. It describes a very particular thing. It shows an eternity that exists independent of time as it gave birth to time itself. Time is change. For the present to exist, the past must die. For the future to exist, the present must die. And so in another way, the mystery of Christ's death and resurrection is shown in time, as Christ is the persistent reality that fills all of creation. Christ is in the past, eve before the foundations of the world, and Christ is with us even to the end of the world. The Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.
The Ultimate Reality exists outside of time.
Time cannot be a reality over The Ultimate Reality.
Time is an aspect of creation.
God exists simultaneously outside of time and creation and inside time and creation through the incarnation. Through His Son and Holy Spirit. Through His Word and His Breath.
Or as we would also say, praise be to the theotokos who contained what cannot be contained in her womb. It is another way of expressing that same mystery of how God, greater than the universe, can still be with us. The theotokos typifies creation itself, who though created by God bears God in her womb.
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@zedvictor4
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@RoderickSpode
There is no "evangelical church" in the sense that you are implying.
Back when everyone understood there was one church, schism was seen as a very wicked thing. The thing that defines evangelical/protestant Christianity is that there are no end to its schisms.
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I've noticed that evangelical/protestant churches have been getting a lot gayer over the years. It seems pretty obvious that pride in sexual immorality has been driving youngins from those churches. Maybe that is why all these churches in my town fly rainbow flags. Got to get'em back in somehow!
While these churches all compromise their integrity, corrupting the Orthodox Church in such a manner would be impossible. Even the Roman Catholic Church has gay clubs in the seminaries for their priests I hear!
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@Vader
I can't imagine ever eating 3 lbs of ghost peppers, but I'll be conscious to make that my limit.
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@Stronn
The word we use is actually pre-eternal.
Hope that clears it up.
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