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@RoderickSpode
If you want to make a topic, I will take part in it. However, I don't really see why I should be excluded from this one.
There are some mighty big irreconcilable differences between the protestant/evangelical churches.
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@Harikrish
Ham was blessed, he wasn't cursed. Canaan is the one who was cursed, and sure enough, his descendants are an extinct people.
The Ethiopian church is one of the oldest Christian churches, and they are a people descended from the Cushites.
According to what is written in Numbers chapter 12, Moses had a wife who was a Cushite, or an Ethiopian.
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"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
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@RoderickSpode
The Orthodox Church is the.very.church founded by Jesus and the apostles. We simply don't see it the same way.
There is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
All other churches can be traced back to their deviation from the true church.
There really isn't room for compromise on this. Either you are with the church or you aren't. We are not going to compromise the truth to satisfy the myriad of churches who prefer a god in their own image. Never has an ecumenical council allowed heretics to cast their vote.
Unity of the faith is absolutely important. Unity of the body is absolutely important. Unity with the historical church is important.
We still love you though, and hope you find the church.
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I think a big misunderstanding here is the nature of Christian morality which is not a legalistic thing to begin with.
The discipline is about purifying the heart. The intellect. The nous.
That being the case, idolatry is the big sin, and what people usually say are bad and immoral things tend to be the fruit of idolatry.
Why is idolatry the big sin? It defiles the nous. It obscures the image of God that we as humans are created in. The Christian discipline is about conforming to the likeness of God. It is the path of theosis. As written by the church father Saint Athanasius, “God became man that man might become God,”. And just as Jesus' fleshly nature struggled, but still fully submitted to the divine nature, so we Christians as disciples of Christ strive to abide in the true vine. The Way, The Truth, and The Life.
This is not done through external reasonings or philosophy, for the Kingdom of God is within, and our focus instead should be to still the passions and purify the heart for "blessed are the pure in heart, they shall see God." And then, keeping our eye on God we must be diligent to keep our hearts clean so that most perfect image of God shines through our being, and we are conformed to the likeness of The Son.
Worshipping God in Spirit and Truth. In the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, who is blessed, glorified, and Lord, now and ever unto ages of ages, amen.
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The Ultimate Reality is God.
God's goal for the universe is for it to exist.
/topic
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@Ramshutu
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD."
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@Ramshutu
The Ultimate Reality is God.
God's goal for the universe is for it to exist.
Your razor cannot cut through The Rock! Your razor has been melted in the fire!
For
"This Word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire."
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"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" = know it all dipshitism
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@Ramshutu
No, I am quite confident that you are a fool. The polar opposite of realizing I'm in error.
Your argument is sophistry. Your inability to reconcile "God cannot exist" with "God by definition is existence".
And with that, I urge you to repent of your wickedness and abandon your folly! Those who put their faith in lying vanities forsake their own salvation!
The Truth is what sets you free, and The Truth is God!
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@Ramshutu
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
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@Ramshutu
The Ultimate Reality.
Reality in the truest sense.
Your argument is nonsense. You can't reason God away.
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@Ramshutu
Not simply reality, The Ultimate Reality.
And as I have said from the beginning, your only argument is to make God something else and then falsely accuse me of equivocating.
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@Ramshutu
The Ultimate Reality.
And I'm not equivocating, this is how we have always understood God. The proof is in the writings of the church stretching back thousands of years.
You are simply uneducated about these matters and are being haughty because you are deceived into thinking you know better.
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@disgusted
You ever hear the saying, "A rose called by any other name is still a rose?"
Your reasoning is that before roses were called roses, roses did not exist.
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@disgusted
Without charity, you are little more than a clanging cymbal, a leaky faucet, a rusty gate.
Without charity, I know the truth is not in you.
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@Stronn
This is certainly a modern form of deism, but I am simply pointing out that the etymology of the word along with its ancient usage literally means "The belief that God exists"
I don't believe that all forms of deism are functionally the same as all forms of atheism. Some forms of atheism are functionally the same as practicing witchcraft and worshipping idols!
But it appears to me that deism in the modern sense seems to be in denial of God's presence in the universe. If that is the case, that would make it a type of modern dualistic heresy. The idea that God created the universe, stepped back, and is wholly apart from it.
Maybe it is functionally the same ss atheism. It creates such a chasm between creation and God that it might as well be nihilism.
"God is not with us" might be Deism in a nutshell.
I have said it before, but I think it is worth repeating. The logical progression of protestant scholasticism is atheistic secularism.
Neo-gnosticism rears its ugly head!
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@PGA2.0
A lot of people have no problem accepting Jesus as savior.... the Lord part tends to trip people up!
Thank you for your input.
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@Stronn
It probably wouldn't be incorrect to identify "the universe" with "creation", but we certainly believe that The Ultimate Reality precedes all existence, even time, and that it is The Ultimate Reality gives the universe its existence. We would say that God created the universe.
Some people like to confuse things by talking about multiple universes or other such absurdities. I would like to make it clear that if there is a multiverse or "multiple universes", there can be no doubt that The Ultimate Reality is above all of these things, and would be what unifies them.
But lets say there is 1 universe. Let us also say that everything that exists with the exception of God is contained in the universe. I say with the exception of God because though God is in the universe(the incarnation), God is not the universe itself. Yes, the universe is deified because of God's presence in it, but the universenis not God, it is united in God.
We Orthodox are not pantheists, we are panentheists. This distinction is important, because The Ultimate Reality cannot be contingent on time or space. God does not change. God is outside of time, but time is contained by God. God is not contained. We explain this mystery through Mary, mother of God(or Theotokos). How in her womb, the uncontainable and uncircumscribable God was contained in her womb but still uncontained and circumscribed! Unfortunately, protestant Christianity has lost its appreciation of the theotokos, but I digress. Maybe it will come up later.
We Orthodox are not pantheists, we are panentheists. I think that is worth repeating.
If God is reality, and God is uncreated, it would seem to follow that reality is uncreated. Is that what you intend?
I will address this more thoroughly in your next question, but it is important to make the distinction. God is not simply "reality", God is "The Ultimate Reality".
The Ultimate Reality is Uncreated. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are uncreated. Creation is however, the flesh of The Son. The Word of God(which is divine, uncreated) made flesh(the flesh is creation).
So to keep it Christological, in the hypostasis of The Son, there are 2 natures united without confusion, without seperation, and without change. We call this the "hypostatic union" in that the divine and the created are met.
What is the difference between truth and The Truth.
It is the same difference that is between "reality" and "The Ultimate Reality". It is true that Donald Trump is the president of The United States. This statement is true now, but in a decade this will no longer be true. A decade ago, this was not true either. This "truth" is a contingent reality that can only be true in relation to other truths or realities. It is not eternally true, only truenin a temporal and relativistic sense.
The Truth refers to the persistent reality, The Absolute Truth that never changes. It is The Ultimate Reality. It Is always The Truth, there never was a time when it wasn't The Truth, and it will always be The Truth. Also, it is the existence of The Truth that gives all more relative truths their veracity.
Define "divinity" or "The Son",
Divinity means coming from God or related to God. The Word of God is divine, and all of creation comes from The Word of God. We say that God speaks things into existence. The Word is the divine aspect of The Son, the creation is the fleshly aspect of The Son. This is enlivened by The Holy Spirit is like the breath that carries The Word.
And so we are created in God's image. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
I hope that helps. Does that make sense to you? Any other way I can clarify?
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@Stronn
You are not simply asking me to clarify, if that was the case, I would be happy to. You instead are telling me to use your language.
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@Stronn
Deism literally means belief in God.
That is what the word means.
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@Stronn
"Creation" is a loaded word. Use "the universe" instead, unless you mean something different than "the universe".
Well, if you know it all already, there is little use in me bothering to address your questions!
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@PGA2.0
That was intended to be an invitation to tell who Jesus Christ is, not a jab!
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I also am mortal, like everyone else,
a descendant of the first-formed child of earth;
and in the womb of a mother I was molded into flesh,
within the period of ten months, compacted with blood,
from the seed of a man and the pleasure of marriage.
And when I was born, I began to breathe the common air,
and fell upon the kindred earth;
my first sound was a cry, as is true of all.
I was nursed with care in swaddling cloths.
For no king has had a different beginning of existence;
there is for all one entrance into life, and one way out.
Therefore I prayed, and understanding was given me;
I called on God, and the spirit of wisdom came to me.
I preferred her to scepters and thrones,
and I accounted wealth as nothing in comparison with her.
Neither did I liken to her any priceless gem,
because all gold is but a little sand in her sight,
and silver will be accounted as clay before her.
I loved her more than health and beauty,
and I chose to have her rather than light,
because her radiance never ceases.
All good things came to me along with her,
and in her hands uncounted wealth.
I rejoiced in them all, because wisdom leads them;
but I did not know that she was their mother.
I learned without guile and I impart without grudging;
I do not hide her wealth,
for it is an unfailing treasure for mortals;
those who get it obtain friendship with God,
commended for the gifts that come from instruction.
May God grant me to speak with judgment,
and to have thoughts worthy of what I have received;
for he is the guide even of wisdom
and the corrector of the wise.
For both we and our words are in his hand,
as are all understanding and skill in crafts.
For it is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists,
to know the structure of the world and the activity of the elements;
the beginning and end and middle of times,
the alternations of the solstices and the changes of the seasons,
the cycles of the year and the constellations of the stars,
the natures of animals and the tempers of wild animals,
the powers of spirits and the thoughts of human beings,
the varieties of plants and the virtues of roots;
I learned both what is secret and what is manifest,
for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me.
There is in her a spirit that is intelligent, holy, unique, manifold, subtle,
mobile, clear, unpolluted,
distinct, invulnerable, loving the good, keen,
irresistible, beneficent, humane,
steadfast, sure, free from anxiety,
all-powerful, overseeing all,
and penetrating through all spirits
that are intelligent, pure, and altogether subtle.
For wisdom is more mobile than any motion;
because of her pureness she pervades and penetrates all things.
For she is a breath of the power of God,
and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty;
therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her.
For she is a reflection of eternal light,
a spotless mirror of the working of God,
and an image of his goodness.
Although she is but one, she can do all things,
and while remaining in herself, she renews all things;
in every generation she passes into holy souls
and makes them friends of God, and prophets;
For God loves nothing so much as the person who lives with wisdom.
She is more beautiful than the sun,
and excels every constellation of the stars.
Compared with the light she is found to be superior,
for it is succeeded by the night,
but against wisdom evil does not prevail
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Thou shalt proclaim wisdom, that understanding may be obedient to thee.
For she is on lofty eminences, and stands in the midst of the ways.
For she sits by the gates of princes, and sings in the entrances, saying,
You, O men, I exhort; and utter my voice to the sons of men.
O ye simple, understand subtlety, and ye that are untaught, imbibe knowledge.
Hearken to me; for I will speak solemn truths; and will produce right sayings from my lips.
For my throat shall meditate truth; and false lips are an abomination before me.
All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing in them wrong or perverse.
They are all evident to those that understand, and right to those that find knowledge.
Receive instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than tried gold.
For wisdom is better than precious stones; and no valuable substance is of equal worth with it.
I wisdom have dwelt with counsel and knowledge, and I have called upon understanding.
The fear of the Lord hates unrighteousness, and insolence, and pride, and the ways of wicked men; and I hate the perverse ways of bad men.
Counsel and safety are mine; prudence is mine, and strength is mine.
By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
By me nobles become great, and monarchs by me rule over the earth.
I love those that love me; and they that seek me shall find me.
Wealth and glory belong to me; yea, abundant possessions and righteousness.
It is better to have my fruit than to have gold and precious stones; and my produce is better than choice silver.
I walk in ways of righteousness, and am conversant with the paths of judgment;
that I may divide substance to them that love me, and may fill their treasures with good things. If I declare to you the things that daily happen, I will remember also to recount the things of old.
The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works.
He established me before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth:
Even before he made the depths; before the fountains of water came forth:
before the mountains were settled, and before all hills, he begets me.
The Lord made countries and uninhabited tracks, and the highest inhabited parts of the world.
When he prepared the heaven, I was present with him; and when he prepared his throne upon the winds:
and when he strengthened the clouds above; and when he secured the fountains of the earth:
And when he strengthened the foundations of the earth:
I was by him, suiting myself to him, I was that wherein he took delight; and daily I rejoiced in his presence continually.
For he rejoiced when he had completed the world, and rejoiced among the children of men.
Now then, my son, hear me: blessed is the man who shall hearken to me, and the mortal who shall keep my ways;
watching daily at my doors, waiting at the posts of my entrances.
For my outgoings are the outgoings of life, and in them is prepared favour from the Lord.
But they that sin against me act wickedly against their own souls: and they that hate me love death.
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@Ramshutu
The Ultimate Reality is God.
Thats it.
And guess what?
God's goal for the universe is for it to exist.
Imagine that!
I'm not sorry if that makes you wrong.
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@Alec
I'm not willing to debate you on this, but I think what you are suggesting is unethical.
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@Stronn
The Ultimate Reality is God.
The Word of God is Truth. Everything exists by The Word of God.
The Truth is in creation, so it is incarnate in creation.
What should be taken home here is that God is present, omnipresent even, in creation. Though God is Uncreated, God is still present in creation.
All of creation is tied to divinity through the fleshly nature of The Son.
Does this make sense to you?
It is not needless repetition. There is a point to it all, and when(if) it all clicks you will realize that what is being explained is apodictic truth.
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@ludofl3x
I have no fear of this choking out my faith. I see it as being a tactic to choke out my faith.
There is a difference.
The gates of hell will not overcome the church.
And as I showed you in that scripture reference to the words of Christ, it would be contrary to our faith to not allow children to take part in divine liturgy. If churches ever decided to bar children, it would be from the influence of government.
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@Ramshutu
The definition doesn't exclude these things either.
And The Ultimate Reality is certainly what we recognize as God, whether you believe that or not is irrelevant. As I said, you have a superficial understanding of my faith, and appear to have already made up your mind about it.
I'm not equivocating, you are simply being haughty.
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@Ramshutu
I have been telling you for 10 pages that none of that is essential to what The Ultimste Reality means.
The Ultimate Reality is God whether or not it fits your conception of God.
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@Ramshutu
I find it amusing that you think you know that God is mindless, thoughtless, and doesn't judge.
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@Stronn
Good good, now here is a connection...
The Word of God is "Truth"
For "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth" and "All things were made by Him(The Word of God, Truth); and without Him was not any thing made that was made."
If something exists, it must exist in truth. Or, the truth in it gives it its existence. If something is true, The Truth in it makes it true.
Can you see this?
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The democrats are going to lose the 2020 election for president because they are too busy trying to win the 2016 election.
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@Alec
I thought you were against abortion?
If you are for eugenics, I would think you would be for abortion.
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@Stronn
Can you see that for something to exist, for that existence to be a reality, there must be some truth to it?
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@Ramshutu
You can't say that God isn't the Christian God because you only have a superficial understanding of what we believe. You are not speaking with knowledge.
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@3RU7AL
We acknowledge that gods exist as created things. They are not worthy of adoration.
There is one God, The Ultimate Reality. The God of gods. The gods are created beings. When people give adoration to them, they are giving adoration to demons.
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@Ramshutu
I have nothing new to add to the conversation. I have explained how you have embraced folly.
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@3RU7AL
Merriam webster has a better definition
"one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods"
The sensual pleasures and material goods being their gods.
Really, a pagan worships created things. They are idols that are shown preference over God.
And so, from our vantage point, atheists are either ignorant of or in denial of their gods.
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There is no argument against God. The Ultimate Reality is God.
Ramshutu acknowledges that Absolute Truth is real, he believes God exists. He believes in HIS OWN CONCEPTION of God that he doesn't call God.
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@Ramshutu
No, you are simply being haughty. Your either/or is even fallacious.
You ain't standing on shit.
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@Ramshutu
What I believe is irrelevant to my argument.
In fact, what anyone believes is irrelevant.
If I were to answer a positive to your questions, it would not make your argument any better.
Your argument is simply to make God something other than God. A big fat giant straw man coupled with invincible ignorance.
Then, to make your position even more illogical, you think that you can disprove God by imagining things.
You don't have anything to stand on.
The Ultimate Reality is God. You in your arrogance pretend to know The Ultimate Reality. Your god is your own understanding.
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@3RU7AL
You can't share 90% of Christian beliefs and then act surprised when people lump you in with Christians.
I understand why you wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but that is because you only have a superfucial understanding of these matters. In the most conservative sense, it might be a stretch to call anyone outside of the church Christian at all. However, it is not very charitable to go around calling people heretics, and we always hope that the heterodox find their way back to the church. It also worth noting that the heterodox really don't know any better, so there is a certain innocence in that to be respected.
Pagans believe in other gods. Atheists do not.
Someone whose entire life revolves around going home to play videogames is clearly bowing down to a god. As an example! The atheist simply doesn't acknowledge the gods they worship because they are educated to be blind to these things.
It also makes it hard to teach religion because people are educated nowadays with a type of newspeech that makes what we are saying unintelligible. The result? Widespread ignorance concerning the faith coupled with an arrogance that resists correction.
And that is precisely why I find the idea set forth in the OP to be offensive!
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@Ramshutu
You don't know what any of that means, so answering the questions would not be beneficial to you. You have superstitious ideas about what those things mean.
I am telling you the truth when I say God is The Ultimate Reality. Our religion isn't about what God is so much as how God is and our relationship with that.
Even we willl say that the essence of God, that is, The Ultimate Reality, is beyond knowing.
But you don't really want to understand what we believe, you are content to think that you know better.
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@3RU7AL
As I said, belief is irrelevant. From our perspective, atheists are simply in denial of the gods they worship. The way we understand and have always understood gods, they are pagans.
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@Ramshutu
You are trying to make this an argument over the veracity of a conception rather than The Ultimate Reality, which is what God means.
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@Ramshutu
Besides, you don't know what we believe, you after all, are on the outside. All you get are parables.
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