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@Ramshutu
Christianity is not the only religion that recognizes The Ultimate Reality as God.
You are making a non argument.
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@3RU7AL
Belief has nothing to do with it. Atheists don't think they have gods either, but we know they do. Most atheists are pagans.It is logically impossible to be an atheist AND simultaneously believe in (much less worship) satan
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@3RU7AL
I am not going to listen to you if you say "No true scottsman" at me while falsely equating my religion with that of those who don't share my religion.
They are not with the church. They are heretics. You are wrong, and making an identity fallacy.
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@Ramshutu
You're not engaging with me honestly, you are simply trying to change what I am saying to what you wish I was saying.
You are not being reasonable.
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There are nice and friendly atheists, but atheism is still abominable, wicked, and satanic.
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@3RU7AL
The Ultimate Reality exists. To be uncertain about this is foolish.
The hatred that atheists express in so many ways, combined with historical precedent of atheist governments treating religion other than state worship as an infection comparable to lice.
The actions of nominal "Christian" heretics is not represenative of true Orthodox Christianity. In addition, The Church is not intended to be a secular authority, in fact, caeseropapism is a heresy, so theocracy or more accurately clericocracy is fundamentally an anti-Christian idea.
There is no such thing as a crusade or Holy war in Orthodoxy.
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From our worldview, there are no atheists, only those who are in denial or ignorance of their gods.
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@Ramshutu
You keep ignoring me correcting you.
I don't know how many times I have to tell you that none of the things you are falsely attaching to my "argument" are what I am saying.
But while I leave the question open to these things you falsely accuse me of asserting, you seem to "know better"
I am simply saying that God is The Ultimate Reality, and we both know God exists, so can we settle on that?
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@3RU7AL
I'd wager that most of them are converts from other forms of Christianity. I can't really say.
I converted to Christianity and it wasn't until later I found the true church. Orthodox Christianity is small in the United States, but it is growing. The people who tend to find Orthodoxy are educated protestants, ones that go through seminary and sccidently stumble on the true church. There are several members of my parish who were protestant pastors for over 20 years. Sone of our deacons also used to be protestant pastors. We also have a retired priest who before becoming orthodox was a Roman Catholic priest for over a decade.
See, it nbn is kind of hard to evangelize when there are so many protestants running around making things confusing. I would say the brunt of our evangelism is actually aimed at people who call themselves Christians these days.
Atheism to us is utter foolishness, and it is the justified opinion of many, including myself, that when they seize power they are going to try to kill us off.
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@3RU7AL
Interesting fact, about a third of all Orthodox Priests in the United States are converts. In The Antiochan Church, which is the church I belong to, around 70% of our priests are converts.
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@3RU7AL
What percentage of adults who know how to read were taught how to read as children?
What percentage of adults learned how to read when they were adults?
I personally find your questioning to be nefarious, because the motivations for suggesting what is in the OP is only one thing... the eradication of religion.
And sure enough, Communist China has laws that enforce what is in the OP. What are their intentions? To eradicate religion so that they can replace it with their state religion which is secularist in nature.
The Turks would just kidnap our children, make them eunuchs, and have them fight in their armies. I suppose what is being entertaimed here is a nicer way of killing us off institutionally!
There will always be a remnant.
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@disgusted
Nonsense. The Ultimate Reality was not invented by anyone, nor could it be.
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@Ramshutu
You don't even understand my argument. You are trying so hard to refute what I am saying that you are incapable of understanding what I am saying. In fact, you are trying so hard that you are taking your own delusions as arguments I have made.
So can we agree that God exists?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
I reckon we don't love god when we sleep
Some particularly hardcore monastics have written about sinning in their sleep. Some really hardcore monastics are known to be practically sleepless.
These are certainly things that cross the minds of those who have dedicated themselves to being monks.
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@Stronn
This might not be immediately obvious, but The Trinity actually demonstrates how our God is not a conception. We could even go so far as to say that other monotheists in fact worship a conception of God because they don't acknowledge what is expressed in The Trinity.
A pretty beefy(in terms of Christology) excerpy from Saint Paul's letter to the Colossians...
"The Son, who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciledIn the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven"
Our faith has everything to do with how God is and how we relate to God. This makes a lot more sense if you come to understand our discipline, which very much has to do with expelling delusion and purifying the intellect through love of The Truth.
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@disgusted
I will actually use a line from the Tao te Ching..
"The name that can be named is not the eternal name"
We call this The Holy Name.
Notice that Jesus is pronounced differently in every language. Notice that the church isn't bothered by this. It is no accident.
A major overarching theme of the New Testament is that "The letter kills, but the spirit brings life."
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@zedvictor4
It is because I know God that I know the essence of God is beyond knowing.
You too could know if you contemplate what "The Ultimate Reality" is.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God."
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@Alec
Communists love to kill Christians when they get in power. They really don't like us. It is institutional to the whole thing.
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@Alec
Nah, I don't think so.
The USSR collapsed not long after allowing The Church to speak publicly. Before that they persecuted the church heavily. I mean, as much genocide as they could get away with. Tens of millions murdered.
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@Stronn
Not at all.
The church doesn't really deal with the issue of what God is so much as how God is. How we relate to God even as creatures.
Both the mysteries of the trinity and the mysteries of the incarnation are intended to explain how God is with us in creation. It also reveals the mystery of salvation.
This is all very much contingent on recognizing that God is The Ultimate Reality.
The Son is The Truth.
The Holy Spirit is The Spirit of Truth.
If this is how The Father is revealed in creation, how is The Father of the same essence with these two other persons? It NJ is all united by Truth.
And so we know God through Trinity. Our religion is Trinity.
Not on this mountain or in this temple, but worshipping The Father in Spirit and Truth. The Trinity.
And the incarnation has to do with the second person of the trinity, the Son. This is the hypostasis that unites all of creation to the rest.
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@Stephen
“I’m doing a lot more learning, studying and kind of making decisions myself rather than listening to someone else.”Exactly. It is just a crying shame the mopacs of the world can't force themselves to do the same.
I spent a greater chunk of my life leaning on my own understanding and learning on my own than listening to direction.
I still study and learn a great deal. I certainly have to make decisions. I listen to council. If no one else, I am married!
Really what you would have me do is, like dog returning to their own vomit, return to the conceit of my youth.
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I will answer questions to clarify, because there is a lot to this subject. It can be confusing.
I am not interested in arguing fruitlessly with those who aren't interested in understanding something before they reject or dispute it.
I will do my best to clarify what we believe.
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The Father
The Son
The Holy Spirit
These are the three hypostases of The Trinity. They are of one essence and undivided. The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God.
God is manifested in creation through The Holy Spirit and The Son.
The Son is The Word of God. The Holy Spirit is like the breath that carries that word. The Word of God is Truth. All of creation was created by and through The Word, as nothing can exist unless Truth is in it.
The hypostasis or person of The Son is the unity of two natures. Fully man and fully divine. This is the unifying of all creation with divine.
The incarnation is God becoming man. By God becoming creation, all of the universe is deified with him. Becoming death, God descends to the lowest hades and rises back up, filling all things, drawing all of creation back to Him.
And so God is with us. God did not speak creation into being and then back off. All of creation is filled by God, enlivened by The Holy Spirit and united in the fleshly nature of the second hypostasis.
And being united with God, all of creation, though dying, is saved and given eternal life in Christ Jesus. Through His resurrection, Christ has conquered death by death, bestowing life to those in the tombs.
Jesus Christ is the persistent reality, The eternal Word of God. And through His incarnation, He is The Most Perfect Image of God The Father as revealed by the life giving and consubstantial Holy Spirit.
It is God's presence in creation that gives it its existence. God is with us.
To know The One True God, The Ultimate Reality, and The One He sent, Jesus Christ. This is to know eternal life.
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Here are the things we know about the properties of Realty.It exists
And so God exists.
Leave it at that.
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Here are the things YOUR God has/is - according to your vehement definitions:Your God is realityYour God has a mind.Your God has super powers.Your God Judge’s us.
The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
Only definition I have given.
But really, minds exist don't they? How can you say God doesn't have a mind?
How can you look at creation and not think it is a super power to make all this exist?
How can you say God doesn't judge when there are consequences for actions?
Yet all of these issues here are non issues. Once again you sre trying to make The Ultimate Reality into a conception you have of my conception of God instead of what it is.
All your confusion would evaporate if you simply accept that The Truth is what it is and qbandon your baggage.
The Truth is God.
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@3RU7AL
There are plenty who come to the church who were not raised in it.
I was raised by rock and roll. Somehow, I am an Orthodox Christian now.
If Muslims or atheists want to raise their kids or let the world raise their kids maybe in the later case, that is their business.
Truthfully though, I see this as a question coming from the religion of secularism, which likes to pretend it isn't a religion and is already state sanctioned and force feeds itself on the population through all forms of media, culture, and even the education system.
Of course the secularists would like a 16 year head start to indoctrinate children in such a way as to make theological concepts mean the opposite of what they really do!
And you know what? China already does something like what is described in the OP. Except of course, it is a state enforced thing not the choice of churches.
No, the idea of not allowing children in church is very much against our religion. It would be better for them earlier on to be instructed in righteousness so that they have a better shot at not being raped by the evils of this world.
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@Ramshutu
You are trying really hard to disprove Ultimate Reality, but it will never work.
You should give up this fools game, and stop trying to confuse the matter with your sophistry.
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@Ramshutu
You should stop pretending you know God, your inability to reconcile what you think you know with what we actually believe is confusing you.
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If realty isn’t God, and is something else
Then you are not talking about God, but a god.
And this is your only argument against God, to smash idols and then declare victory over The Ultimate Reality.
I understand that accepting what I am saying would constitute a huge paradigm shift for you, but I am telling you the truth.
That is why we say, "Forgive them, they know not what they do."
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@ludofl3x
"Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence."
There is your answer.
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@Polytheist-Witch
No, he actually said he wanted to hear everyone's opinions except us.
So yeah, he was asking for us to respond. Lol.
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Talk about something else while pretending to talk about the same thing...
Thats atheism for you.
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@Ramshutu
You accusing me of using circular reasoning is actually you refusing to accept that God means The Ultimate Reality.
You are simply in denial of what the word means. You need a straw man god in order to have an argument.
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@ludofl3x
People tend to be attached to their own reasonings much like a parent is attached to their own children. You might be a little bias.
Might be butt ugly, but mama thinks you're beautiful!
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@ludofl3x
You tried to exclude us both from this topic.
You were kind of asking for this.
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@Ramshutu
If God doesn't exist, you don't exist. If nothing is ultimately real, you cannot be real.
Clearly there is some reality to your existence or you would not be having an experience.
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@Ramshutu
If you have a mind, God certainly has a mind as you could not have your mind independent of God.
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@ludofl3x
A fool is always right in his own eyes.
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Even if the US considered these things racist, it is a violation of the 1st ammendment to the constitution to ban these things.
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@ludofl3x
No, we raise our kids in the faith, and there is nothing wrong with that.
You should mind your own business.
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@Ramshutu
Then you get no answer. Carry on.
But even you know that "mind" is not an essential quality of what it means to be The Ultimate Reality.
You are arguing against your own superstitions.
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@Goldtop
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@ludofl3x
Because we educate our children better than the state.
The state is secularist, and that is how the state educates the population.
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@Ramshutu
I'm actually giving you an answer, I think you are the one who is afraid of looking stupid. I assure you, this fear is irrational.
Do you have a mind?
There you have your answer.
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@Ramshutu
If you answer my question, you will have the answer to your question.
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Take that trash to China, we don't want it here.
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@Ramshutu
Where do you get "mind" out of The Ultimate Reality?
It simply isn't there, you have a non argument. I am hearing you, I have been saying this whole time that you are confused. I am not interested in arguing fruitlessly.
Your argument about conceptions is nonsense and shows me you are confused. You don't understand what I am saying. I am not interested in arguing fruitlessly.
So can you say that God exists?
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