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@secularmerlin
What does it mean to you personally if you do not have free will?
What does it mean personally if you do have free will?
Please answer these questions even if you think they are irrelevant.
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@keithprosser
What does it mean to you personally if you do not have free will?
What does it mean personally if you do have free will?
Please answer these questions even if you think they are irrelevant.
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@Outplayz
If you are truly in a state of prelest, it is unlikely that you will respect my opinion on the matter anyway, even if I am telling you the truth. That being the case, would it really be beneficial for me to give an observation?
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RM prefers to live in a reality of his own design.
Duh, he's obviously a chaos magician. If the things he says doesn't give him away, look, he's the 23rd member to join the site.
And like all true discordians, he's sticking apart and creating his own personal variance.
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@Outplayz
Orthodoxy is certainly not about manipulation or control.
"You are delusional unless you believe me" is not what The Church teaches.
You make it an arbitrary thing, but perhaps that is because you are judging based on outward appearances. The Church is a hospital that treats prelest, and if it actually does have a knowledge of these matters, it's claim to be a hospital of spiritual sickness is not a claim stemming from haughtiness but truth.
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@David
I would say that in the points where Calvinist Christianity and Orthodox Christianity differ, Orthodox Christianity would be closer to Judaism.
In my experience, Orthodox Christians seem to be more offended at Calvinism than any other form of protestant Christianity.
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Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry...
They are Calvinists!
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We Orthodox Christians certainly have no desire to enslave or murder you or anyone.
Jesus Christ is the lover of mankind.
You are loved.
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@Outplayz
I don't know where you get scare tactic out of prelest.
I also don't understand how you could think it is an evil word.
That line has everything to do with prelest, because the less delusional you are the more you are aware of your imperfections.
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Actually, it would probably be wrong for me to identify this to Roman Catholicism as well, since you seem to equate European Imperialist powers to Christianity.
Wasn't Enland Anglican by this time anyway?
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@TheRealNihilist
Mopac says: The standard is my body my choice! I don't want to carry a useless collection of cells and tissues, so I don't have to! It's like getting a haircut, clipping toenails, or getting your tonsils removed. I have a RIGHT TO CHOOSE whether or not I am pregnant. My body, my choice!Disgusted says: Finally something that makes sense.
What I say?
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@Outplayz
Well, an Orthodox Priest is certainly an expert on Orthodoxy.
But I think you should read this article.
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Christianity obviously has nothing to do with the slave trade, you are making an identity fallacy by equating colonial European imperialist powers with Christianity. Also, your curse of Ham claim is a debunked argument.
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@Outplayz
Do you trust someone who is an expert in their field to be able to speak with knowledge about their field?
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@janesix
I like the taste of coffee. I think maybe those who put cream and sugar in their coffee maybe don't like the flavor of coffee.
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@Outplayz
I mean that children have to give their trust. Their parents... teachers... baby sitters... whatever the case.may be.
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@Harikrish
That is the Roman Catholic Church.
They broke away from The Orthodox Catholic Church.
They are schismatics, and I am of the opinion that no other organization has done more damage to the name of Christ.
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@Harikrish
The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
The Orthodox Catholic Church.
It is the very church that was founded by Jesus and the apostles. All these other churches can trace themselves back in some way to deviation from this church.
All other churches are either a step away or several steps away from Orthodoxy.
Most evangelical or protestant churches trace themselves from breaking away from Roman Catholicism.
Roman Catholicism broke away from Orthodoxy a thousand years or so ago because they had this crazy idea that the pope of Rome was somehow the supreme bishop of the church and could just do whatever he wants. They have altered the faith a great deal, and protestantism is largely a reaction against that.
Most evangelical churchs are reactions against the protestant churches.
And so the multiplication of heresies never ends.
But the actual definitive Christian Church is Orthodox Christianity. Everyone else kind of has a piece... a napkin of peter or something.
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@Outplayz
I am not saying to throw out your trust to everyone.
But I will say, as far as what you are talking about, children don't have much choice in these matters.
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@secularmerlin
The name "Yahweh" literally means "I exist".
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Utilitarianism promises that robots will perform all the labor, and my heroin is free. I am disappointed that what is said to be moral is not my right.
It's time to wave signs in front of the capital.
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@Snoopy
"it is the greatest happiness of the greatest number that is the measure of right and wrong."
I see this as an incredibly dangerous and unethical moral philosophy.
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@3RU7AL
When theophany happens, and you realize the whole time you have been persecuting the one you love, the effects that this has on a person can be very dramatic.
Paul was always a man who loved God. It was Paul's love of God that drove him to persecute the church to begin with. Just like many people who even call themselves atheists love God very much.
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@3RU7AL
What you acknowledge as being a reality is still what is called free will, so really your debate is whether or not "free will" is a good term for it.
And you know what? I have had the same issues with this term as you. As I am incapable of farting muffins into existence, it is difficult to call this will free.
But I think it is important to note that at least in the context of Orthodox thelogy and how we understand these things, a great deal of it is translational issues.
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@Polytheist-Witch
@3RU7AL
Loving God for who God is should really be enough.
The Truth.
If you prefer the things of this world, you would sooner place your faith in the miracles themselves than God.
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@3RU7AL
I don't know whether spiders make choices or not.
What I do know is that I have choices, and hard as it might be for me to choose to do what seems right, it is still my choice whether or not I do what I can discern that I ought to do.
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[1] Theism is the believe that God exists. Atheism is lack of belief in the existence of God.
[2] God is The Supreme and Ultimate Reality
[3]
(A) The so called "agnostic" atheist, that is, the one who isn't sure whether or not God exists either does not know what God means or is entertaining a self defeating position.
(B) The atheist believes that God doesn't exist holds a position that is self defeating.
[4] God or, The Utimate Reality must exist or it doesn't fulfill the definition. It is part of the essence of God that God exists. If it doesn't exist, it is not God.
As God by definition must exist, it is neither justifiable to deny or be uncertain about God's existence.
[5] If there is no God, there can be no reality as nothing is real. As experience scientifically demonstrates, there is clearly some form of existence. Whether this existence is illusory or not, it still exists as an illusion. There is some reality to it. If there is reality at all, it can only be real by The Ultimate Reality, which gives all existences their reality.
To say, "There is no God" is to say "It is the truth that there is no truth!". Obviously, this is a self defeating statement because it cannot be true.
As the position of denying Godnis irrational, it is not rational to even entertain it, therefore agnosticism concerning God is just as irrational as outright denying God.
Atheism is a position fundamentally founded on ignorance.
It is not written in vain, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.", because anyone who knowingly denies the existence of God is both evil and a fool.
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The only atheists that use the same definition of God are the most hardcore of nihilists who deny Truth itself.
Otherwise, atheism that denies God, The Ultimate Reality can only prop itself up by constructing a straw man God that is certainly not in line with orthodoxy.
Atheism other than nihilism is contingent on making God anything other than The Ultimate Reality, and for that reason they are simply pretending to talk about the same thing.
I say other than nihilism, because the truest most extreme form of nihilism denies ultimate reality all together, which completes nihilism in that it destroys everything including itself.
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@3RU7AL
No it would be making a choice, not an emotion you get.Freewill is an emotion. It's just a feeling you get when you make a choice.
The ability to choose is what is called "freewill". Free will is probably not a good wsy to describe it, because as I have mentioned before, free will sounds like the ability to jump to the moon and back on a whim.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
That is so very important to recognize.The Constitution and Bill of Rights is a recognition of inalienable rights, they are not given/granted by government, if they were they wouldn't be rights they would be privileges
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@Polytheist-Witch
Pagans are as diverse as created things.
And that is what they have in common. It is creation worship.
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@3RU7AL
Sounds about right. And that is actually what is meant by free will. Not that the will is totally free to do whatever it wants or that it isn't tempered by the causal universe. We can make choices, but we are still very much bound by a meatsuit. The meatsuit will always have its influence, but we do have the ability to choose to resist many of its influences. That is a very peculiar thing if you think about it.
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Worship sex as your god.
I want to be able to have sex with whoever I want, whenever I want, without any responsibility whatsoever, and if that means sacrificing my children, so be it!
It's evil pagan bullshit.
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@TheRealNihilist
Well yeah but having a standard does help because it is pretty much something fundamental needed to know in order to make laws around it
The standard is my body my choice! I don't want to carry a useless collection of cells and tissues, so I don't have to! It's like getting a haircut, clipping toenails, or getting your tonsils removed. I have a RIGHT TO CHOOSE whether or not I am pregnant. My body, my choice!
And you can call me names all you want, but it should be obvious that this is an actual argument that is used.
Why is abortion good? Because it empowers women to have choices concerning their own body!
Yes, of course it is wicked.
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Drinking black coffee.
Not staring at the wall.
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From the book of the prophet Isaiah....
Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God?Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
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@3RU7AL
A human can choose between this world of the flesh, the passions, the pride of life, of death.
Or to abide in Eternity, to abide in God, in Life.
The Way of the later is the path of synergism as we call it in Orthodoxy. It is the path of true religion. The purification of the heart, acquisition of The Holy Spirit, a willful alignment with the divine energy of God, a surrendering of the will of the flesh to the will of God. It is the path of theosis, the way of a child of God.
And The Way is The Truth, Eternal Life. For Eternal Life is this, to know The One True God and The One sent, Jesus Christ. To know Jesus Christ is to unlock this great mystery, contained in the second hypostasis of The Trinity.
For God became incarnate, deifying all of creation, descending into hades, rising from the dead and filling all things. Trampling down death by death, drawing all back to Him through His Flesh.
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@Outplayz
Sounds very self centered.
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Murder and destruction is far from us. Our way is love, truth, and mercy.
Jesus Christ is our example, giving his life even for those who revile him, saying "Forgive them, they know not what they do."
Even you are loved.
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@Outplayz
Your assessment of what a presbyter is and why they wear the vestments they do is way off mark. But I don't expect you to honor them considering you are not orthodox.
The individuality of the presbyter has to some extent fall into the background while the role they assume is emphasized. That is one. reason they wear the vestments. It is not to puff them up
The presbyters where I go are very humble people, and really, to be in the position they are in, they would have to be. Here is an example of a prayer that a presbyter says quietly in the middle of liturgy...
No one bound by carnal desires and pleasures is worthy to approach, draw near, or minister to You, the King of Glory. For to serve You is great and awesome even for the heavenly powers. Yet, because of Your ineffable and immeasurable love for mankind, You impassibly and immutably became man. You, as the Master of all, became our high priest and delivered unto us the sacred service of this liturgical sacrifice without the shedding of blood. Indeed, Lord our God, You alone reign over the celestial and the terrestrial; borne aloft on the cherubic throne, Lord of the Seraphim and King of Israel, the only holy and resting among the holy ones. I now beseech You, Who alone are good and inclined to hear: Look down upon me, Your sinful and unprofitable servant, and cleanse my soul and heart of a wicked conscience; and enable me, by the power of Your Holy Spirit, clothed with the grace of the priesthood, to stand before Your holy Table and celebrate the Mystery of Your holy and pure Body and Your precious Blood. I come before You with my head bowed, and I implore You: Turn not Your face away from me, nor reject me from among Your children, but make me, Your sinful and unworthy servant, worthy to offer these gifts to You. For You are the One Who both offers and is offered, the One Who is received and is distributed, O Christ our God, and to You we offer up glory, with Your Father, Who is without beginning, and Your all-holy and good and life-creating Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.
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@Outplayz
We have presbyters and bishops and stuff. They are still people. It is a good thing to respect their office and they work they do. They aren't really like overlords or anything. Not like kings or anything.
Glad you found a friend.
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@Outplayz
No, we are very much a church with a hierarchy. I mean that in the sense that we do have holy orders. That said, the church is not a secular government.
The way we approach scripture is not a step in the right direction, because we are the original church. Everyone else is making a step in the WRONG direction.
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@3RU7AL
Free will is the ability to choose, not immunity from causality.
However that ability is brought about, it is there. There is somehow room for it.
I can see no good reason for you to reject free will at this point.
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@3RU7AL
It's nice that you have questions. I suggest going to an Orthodox priest.
But I think the important thing to note is that yes, we do believe in free-will, and yes, we can use that free will in a way that isn't truly in our best interests.
To you I say that if free will exists, which as I said, we orthodox certainly accept that it does, it would easily fit into your paradigm as an uncaused variable without conflict.
I can see no good reason for you to reject free will at this point.
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