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@3RU7AL
Since you are asking for church documents, this one might be relevant. The historical context behind this comes from The Orthodox Church repudiation of a Calvinist claim that the Orthodox Church supports their position. How this is relevent comes from the fact that Calvin taught a determinist theology that functionally denied free will. It represents The Orthodox Position well, I hope it at least clarifies something.
This is an excerpt from "The Confession of Dositheus" at the Synod of Jerusalem.
Since it is quite a chunk to read, I will wait until you read this and respond before I say anything else.
Decree 3We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He has chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He has rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that would be contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth {1 Timothy 2:4}. But since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other. And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call preventing [or, prevenient] grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requires as necessary to salvation, there is consequently granted particular grace. This grace co-operates with us, and enables us, and makes us to persevere in the love of God, that is to say, in performing those good things that God would have us to do, and which His preventing grace admonishes us that we should do, justifies us, and makes us predestinated. But those who will not obey, and co-operate with grace; and, therefore, will not observe those things that God would have us perform, and that abuse in the service of Satan the free-will, which they have received of God to perform voluntarily what is good, are consigned to eternal condemnation.But to say, as the most wicked heretics do and as is contained in the Chapter [of Cyril's' Confession] to which this answers — that God, in predestinating, or condemning, did not consider in any way the works of those predestinated, or condemned, we know to be profane and impious. For thus Scripture would be opposed to itself, since it promises the believer salvation through works, yet supposes God to be its sole author, by His sole illuminating grace, which He bestows without preceding works, to show to man the truth of divine things, and to teach him how he may co-operate with it, if he will, and do what is good and acceptable, and so obtain salvation. He takes not away the power to will — to will to obey, or not obey him.But than to affirm that the Divine Will is thus solely and without cause the author of their condemnation, what greater defamation can be fixed upon God? and what greater injury and blasphemy can be offered to the Most High? We do know that the Deity is not tempted with evils, {cf. James 1:13} and that He equally wills the salvation of all, since there is no respect of persons with Him. we do confess that for those who through their own wicked choice, and their impenitent heart, have become vessels of dishonor, there is justly decreed condemnation. But of eternal punishment, of cruelty, of pitilessness, and of inhumanity, we never, never say God is the author, who tells us that there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents. {Luke 15:7} Far be it from us, while we have our senses, to believe or to think this; and we do subject to an eternal anathema those who say and think such things, and esteem them to be worse than any infidels.
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@3RU7AL
We understand that part of what it means to be made in the image of God is to have free will. So it is really quite the opposite of being a God puppet. Part of what makes us human is the ability to reject God and the grace that is freely offered to us.
And I don't see how this couldn't fit into what you call an "indeterminate framework".
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I know it is long for a video, but itnis impossible to look at American politics the same way after watching.
Keep in mind that this interview took place in the 80s. It very much predicts a great deal about why we are where we are today.
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After they harvest your organs, what do they do with the rest of the body?
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@Outplayz
I know I've told you before, and you reject the label, but you totally sound like a satanist.
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You die, The Truth is still there.
What is my religion? To abide in The Truth. Theosis.
How can I fear death? It is obvious that The Truth is eternal. My religion is all about killing the self and magnifying The Truth.
My faith isn't in this body to begin with. Long after I am forgotten by men, The Truth will be there. I am not important. I must become less, so that The Truth becomes more.
So tell me, do you even have to accept my religion to see that The Truth is eternal?
I am not invested in this passing world, it is vanity. We all know this. The Truth is what is eternal.
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Rome for the longest time had this idea thst scripture should nb only be in Lat i'l n, Greek,nor Hebrew, which is bizarre because the ancient Alexandrian Church had scripture in Coptic, the ancient Antiochan church had scripture in Aramaic and Syriac, and the Latin scriptures themselves were translated from Greek.
Also, western Europe might have still been in the dark ages had not Roman Catholic crusaders sacked Eastern Christian land and looted us of our libraries of knowledge.
Muslims like to take credit for the knowledge they conquered from Eastern Christians as well. Didn't take too long after for them to slink back into the dark ages.
Because believe it or not, Orthodox Christianity is an enlightened faith, and there is nothing anti-intellectual or oppressive about it.
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@WisdomofAges
Roman Catholic Church is schismatic. Not Orthodox.
We have always translated scripture into common vernacular, even going so far as to creating written languages for this purpose(see cyrillic).
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The classic example is quantum flux. Historically it has been referred to as an "uncaused cause" or "first cause" or "causa sui".
Sounds like God, even related to our essence/energies in Orthodox theology.
I understand that "chaos" is generally "overwhelming complexity" and not necessarily "random".If an event is "uncaused" then it is 100% divorced from the previous chain of causes and events and as such could not be context sensitive, and would therefore be essentially random.
Ok, we are on the same page.
Determinism is the foundation of science and thought. Without cause-and-effect, all logic goes completely out the window.However, there are unknown variables, and whether or not they are "random" is an open question, so in order to be perfectly comprehensive, I trade the term "determinism" for the more comprehensive "indeterminism" (which includes all possible caused (known) and uncaused (unknown) variables).
I would like to kind of make an observation concerning the identifying of unknown variables as uncaused variables. Not so much an argument, but an observation to give an idea of what this kind of looks like.
I think it is a reflection of your worldview, which from my perspective exalts science or knowledge in such a way that is not truly reasonable, that you would call unknown variables "uncaused". I noticed this also earlier when you interpreted me saying that you could not conclusively prove anything as being random as an indication that random does not exist.
I do not believe that something exists because it is known. I do not believe that something exists by being known. In fact, I don't truly believe that anything in the universe is actually random. I do believe in chaos.
I do however believe that God fulfills the essence of what an uncaused variable is, but I do not take God as a placeholder for anything outside our knowing, as sometimes it seems that you do when you use words like noumenon.
I am not really debating you here. I get that you are saying the question of random variables is an open question. I'm just giving you an idea of how I am interpreting what you are saying.
Think about it. How does a random impulse = human will? Is your will random?Think about it. How does a random impulse = freedom? Is your freedom random?
I wouldn't use the word random, I don't truly believe in the existence of random. I would perhaps say that there is an aspect of our will that is free. I say aspect, because it should be apparent that our will is tempered by our flesh, the world, etc.
It has been referred to in the writings of the church as a "divine spark". So while we are indeed subject to causality, there is still something in us that allows us to defy predictability. We can choose to make decisions that go against what is expected.
And it appears to me that the idea you have of uncaused variables in an indeterminate universe makes room for this possibility.
And so, you may be thinking in such a way that perhaps will lead to the reconciliation of these concepts that seem mutually exclusive.
That is what it looks like to me.
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@TheRealNihilist
It's not nice to be a bully, Omar. I find you hating me without a cause to in fact be what is irrational.
I believe that my first post was on topic, and certainly reflects a worldview that is accepted by abortion activists all round.
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@disgusted
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Oh, I like this one... abortion is good for the environment. Population control in the name of sustainability!
The kind of door that type of thinking opens for evik... gyeh...
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@TheRealNihilist
Quite the contrary, it is difficult for me NOT to make fun of people.
And if you couldn't tell, I was making fun in that post that you called me irrational over.
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Admitting that God exists is not atheism.DEISM IS FUNCTIONALLY IDENTICAL TO ATHEISM.
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@EtrnlVw
Yet, the church not only wrote the gospels you read, but also determined the books that are contained in your new testament.
By The Church, I of course mean the historic and actual real church, not the church of your prelest.
By The Church, I of course mean the historic and actual real church, not the church of your prelest.
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@TheRealNihilist
Sometimes the hardest thing for me to do is not to make fun of people.
I don't think anyone really appreciates that.
Oh well. Pissing in the wind.
I don't think anyone really appreciates that.
Oh well. Pissing in the wind.
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Abortion is a good thing because now I can CHOOSE to live the kind of life I WANT. I can CHOOSE whether or not I WANT to get fat and pregnant, which would destroy my figure and sex appeal, and I can CHOOSE to do with MY BODY what I WANT.
Girls just WANT to have fun! Pregnancy is INCONVENIENT and a total buzz kill.
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@3RU7AL
Give me an example of a non-causal variable.
Also, how can you make the leap to call chaos "random"?
Also, maybe it would be a good thing for you to clarify what it is that you mean by determinism, because I don't see how random variables can exist if everything that ever happened and ever will happened has been determined. Determinism usually actually means "pre-determinism" or that the future has already been determined.
I also don't see how you could flat out reject freewill as being illogical when a concept such as "non-causal variable" seems like an opening for free will to be snuck in.
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@3RU7AL
"it is impossible to prove conclusively the existence of anything random."sounds like, "nothing is random".
But what it actually means is we can't know.
You haven't explained why you believe this subject is "absurd"
I sure have. Because..
"...it is impossible to prove conclusively the veracity of either free will or determinism."
Well, cause and effect seem pretty conclusive. I'm not sure why you would imagine it to be "impossible".
Because..
"..science itself has conclusively proven that it is impossible to account for all variables. Given our experience, It would seem that the possibility of free will cannot be ruled out."
Do you think it is beneficial to believe something false if it makes you feel better?
No
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This a very informative interview that should give some insight into the real Russian influence in American politics, and is a must watch for anyone no matter what end of the political spectrum you are on!
If you watch this whole interview, it may reveal a great deal about what is going on.
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The impression I got from studying Jainism was that a true Jain saint would be someone who goes off into a cave and slowly starves themselves to death.
That seems to be the logical conclusion of the vegan moralfag route.
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@3RU7AL
Both "random" and "chaos" are mathematical terms with actual meanings, and they are different.
They look the same, but they are different.
You are right though, if I were to argue that "nothing is random" it could be said that I am a determinist.
However, that isn't what I am arguing. I am arguing that it is impossible to prove conclusively the existence of anything random.
And how that ties in to the topic at hand, I am saying that it is impossible to prove conclusively the veracity of either free will or determinism.
As the debate itself is absurd, I suggest examining the effect of belief in either of these two realities.
From my standpoint, belief in free will is far more beneficial in the healing process of an individual.
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@3RU7AL
Chaos is simply the perception of disorder. This is not the same as saying something is random. It is impossible to prove that anything is truly random.
What appears to be chaos can in fact be so grand in its order that the order that constitutes it can no longer be perceived.
Anton Webern's music might sound random to some, but his compositions tended to be an extreme example of order.
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@secularmerlin
An epistemological nihilist such as yourself should have no problem seeing the absurdity that I pointed out.
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@Fallaneze
You should probably not speak about things you don't understand as if you had knowledge(My faith).
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@3RU7AL
Physics is the study of causality. If there is no causal relationship, it isn't a variable. It has zero effect and is therefore irrelevant.
Instead I would say there are either local or non-local variables, the later being the harder to account for.
I am not quite as superstitious as the ones I am speaking to, thank you.
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@secularmerlin
For someone who is so full of shit, I think it nbn is pretty obvious that I have the most reasonable approach to this topic.
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Somehow I am not surprised that the nihilist is suggesting to everyone that hey kill themselves.
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@secularmerlin
The things I say as you understand them are "beyond human epistemology", but I know this isn't so. Though, for an epistemological nihilist, there isn't much of anything that isn't beyond human epistemology.
Christian theology is fundamentally apodictic truth. If this seems like a bold claim, realize that the only way you can possibly come to know that claim is true is if you are in on it.
And I used to be in the epistemological black hole too. It feels nice to be out of that mess.
But what I am talking about is very much on topic. I am, as per usual, hated without a cause.
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@secularmerlin
Then the debate over the veracity of free will is absurd and amounts to little more than vain imaginings and philosophical masturbation.
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@secularmerlin
@keithprosser
@Fallaneze
Reason is the only way anyone comes to the conclusion of determinism. Otherwise, experience certainly gives us the perception of choice.
And I believe it is a huge mistake to think that either requires a greater burden of proof when science itself has conclusively proven that it is impossible to account for all variables. Given our experience, It would seem that the possibility of free will cannot be ruled out.
So since it is really kind of an absurd thing to ponder the veracity of either side in this debate and come to a solid conclusion, perhaps that means that we should look at other aspects of this question.
For example, how does the acceptance of free will or the denial of free will effect the psychology of the believer? What is a more useful belief to have? A more beneficial belief to have?
I am of course bias very much so with the opinion that accepting free will empowers a person to free themselves from their mental illnesses, the fetters of passion, the bestial pull of the body, and the oppression of one's environment. The Orthodox Church also has this position. So we see that having free will is part of what it means to be made in the image of God. It is also the reverence for this free will that makes known the evil of compulsion, and a reverence for that image that makes known the dignity of every person and mankind itself.
On the other hand, fatalistic thinking that comes from denial of free will leads to the dehumanizing of the person and the perceived hopelessness of effecting one's situation.
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@disgusted
The Ultimate Reality is not created by man or at all for that matter.
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@disgusted
I couldn't anymore than I could teach 2 + 3 = 5 to someone who insists that a 2 is a 0.
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See, I can already tell that your Christology is not in line with what the church believes and teaches.Jesus was definitely an enlightened being
That could be a good discussion if you are interested.
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@EtrnlVw
The Ultimate Reality is God.
Yes, reality as it truly is.
Most people when they think of God have a conception of God in their heads. They either reject or embrace this conception. The Ultimate Reality is not a conception.
The essence of God is The Ultimate Reality. If you understand what that means, you will also understand why we say the essence of God is unknowable.
But we know how God is, and that is through The Trinity. And it is because you don't have The Trinity that what you call God is in fact a conception of God.
Our "crippled" church is still the second largest communion of those who call themselves Christians in the world, even after several state sanctioned genocides managed to dwindle our numbers by some 50 million in the last century.
So just remember, we are not only bigger than the methodists, the presbytarians, the baptists, etc... but our church is actually the very Church that descends from Jesus Christ and his apostles. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church. A church with a rich experience and a depth that you evidently are wholly unaware of.
Yes, reality as it truly is.
Most people when they think of God have a conception of God in their heads. They either reject or embrace this conception. The Ultimate Reality is not a conception.
The essence of God is The Ultimate Reality. If you understand what that means, you will also understand why we say the essence of God is unknowable.
But we know how God is, and that is through The Trinity. And it is because you don't have The Trinity that what you call God is in fact a conception of God.
Our "crippled" church is still the second largest communion of those who call themselves Christians in the world, even after several state sanctioned genocides managed to dwindle our numbers by some 50 million in the last century.
So just remember, we are not only bigger than the methodists, the presbytarians, the baptists, etc... but our church is actually the very Church that descends from Jesus Christ and his apostles. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church. A church with a rich experience and a depth that you evidently are wholly unaware of.
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@secularmerlin
The nihilist once again is sucked imto his epistemological black hole, paralyzed by his faithlessness.
Waiting for you help me understand.
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@secularmerlin
You can't say the Ultimate Reality exists, which is very unreasonable. You asking for evidence concerning this is also unreasonable.
There is nothing reasonable about nihilism. Even entertaining it is irrational.
Still waiting for you to help me understand.
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@TheRealNihilist
I believe I better know what I am talking about than you know.
The Ultimate Reality exists, and that is the only God I recognize.
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@secularmerlin
If asking you to help me understand is no reason to you, I can't help but think that maybe your delusion stems from you being unreasonable.
But here I am asking again, hoping that maybe you are more reasonable than it would appear.
Help me to understand.
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@TheRealNihilist
My argument for God to you is that you don't know God.
If you accepted the identity of God as being The Supreme and Ultimate Reality, the existence of God would be self evident.
Many have a conception of God, and then they either believe in or deny the existence of that conception. The Ultimate Reality is not a conception. It is reality in the truest sense of the world.
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There are countless wrongs to righted in the world, so many evils to be corrected.. so many problems to be solved....
The one thing out of all of these that you choose to be an activist about is the "right" to abort a pregnancy?
You're a piece of shit.
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@secularmerlin
It is a fallacy to misidentify fallacies.
What I am saying is the truth, and your inability to discern creation from the uncreated does not invalidate the necessity of the uncreated existing.
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@Harikrish
The church has greater authority than your interpretation of scriptures
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@secularmerlin
I am telling the truth. It is fallacy to point out nonfallacies as fallacies.
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@Harikrish
Yes, it is no strange thing that parents pass on their idolatries and bad habits to their children. And even these curses can be lifted!
As far as Ham being cursed, as well as all of his children, that is simply not what the church teaches. The curse fell on Canaan, not his brothers.
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