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@secularmerlin
The Ultimate Reality cannot be a fallacy, wizard, no matter how pretentious you are about being rational.
The Ultimate Reality cannot be subject to time, because then time would be a reality over The Ultimate Reality. If there is a reality over The Ultimate Reality, it does not fulfil the essence of what it is to be The Ultimate Reality. That being the case, you are simply looking at a conception of God, and calling this conception God. God is not a conception. God is not a created being.
The Truth is not a fallacy. Time only exists as it does in Truth, only so much as The Truth is in it. Time does not exist before The Truth. Time exists because of The Truth.
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@secularmerlin
The Ultimate Reality by essence is Singularity. It is therefore not a fallacy to say that all created realities are contingent, but The Ultimate Reality by essence is not contingent. The Ultimate Reality is, after all, not created.
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@secularmerlin
In order to exist a created being needs space to exist in and time to exist during.
Fixed.
But God does exist in space and time as well as outside it. That is part of the mystery of the incarnation. After all, to become incarnate in creation God had to take the form of creation.
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@Fallaneze
If you deny free will, things are not accepted out of reason, but out of necessity!
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@secularmerlin
Omniscience and free willl are only mutually exclusive to a being that is bound by time, not a being that exists before time, outside of time.
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@secularmerlin
If determinism is true, you can only be compelled to accept reason, or anything for that matter.
It is no strange thing that the very one who existed before time and thus outside time gave us the freedom of choice without determining the choices we make, also knows everything that happens in time.
It is not necessary that God determines what we do to be able to know what we are going to do.
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@3RU7AL
Gentile converts to Christianity were not expected to become Jews.
The spirit behind Mosaic law was to write on the heart love of God and love towards one's neighbor. In that sense, Jesus Christ is the fulfillment. Jesus Christ is the point of the whole thing.
The Mosaic law itself also had to do with a secular, worldly government. The Kingdom of God is not a secular worldly government. It is not of this world.
And so we do see all governing authorities as having been given their authority by God, and we are not anarchists. At the same time, we are not secularists. The church is not intended to be a secular government, it must always be distinct from the state.
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@secularmerlin
I understand that it would be a misrepresentation to call you evil, because evil itself is a meaningless term, as everything has been determined. Who can be blamed for anything?
In fact, your charge of me misrepresenting your position is in itself meaningless, because I am only expressing what I was determined to represent.
Don't blame me, blame reality as it is
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@secularmerlin
Lets talk about eachother instead of free will. That seems to be what you really want.
Or maybe that isn't the right choice of words, wanting, that is. After all, if we have no free will as you seem to believe, it was determined before you were even born that you would be compelled into doing what you do. You are after all, little more than a manifestation of the weather.
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@secularmerlin
I actuallly did in that post you are replying to, but this is really just your way of dodging the subject of this topic, not an attempt by you to be educated.
I find your facetiousness offensive. The type of debate that is unchristian is the type of debate you engage in. Self righteousness over the truth's righteousness.
You don't want to engage me because your magic has no power over me, and engaging with me exposes your sophistry.
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@3RU7AL
Abortion is not a religious freedom issue any more than theft.
And sacrificing a child to the god of convenience sure sounds like a religious reason to me.
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@3RU7AL
If god made the world, then anything inspired by the world is inspired by god.
I don't believe that someone who is inspired by the cartoons I drew on the back of a cereal box is inspired by me.
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@disgusted
As long as you make God something other than what I am saying, it is easy to say this.
But this has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with your own embrace of delusion.
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@secularmerlin
I only read the first sentence of what you said, because I have never proposed a law, nor would I.
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@secularmerlin
If debate was wrong in all cases, why would the church have ever held ecumenical councils to begin with?
There is a right type of debate, and a wrong type of debate.
The type of debate you are having with me is certainly an evil debate, because the intent is not to find truth, but to simply kill, steal, and destroy.
I do not respect your wicked appeals to my faith, which you don't understand and truly revile. You have no real interest in what I believe, and your worldview calls for the death of my religion.
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@secularmerlin
All I see is you attacking me and not debating then subject matter.
Excuse me if pointing this out means I have 3 fingers pointing back at me.
Denying free will is a harmful and dangerous belief. It is a dehumanizing belief even.
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@secularmerlin
In either case your last post is completely besides the point. Lucky for you this is not an indication of your debating prowess since you are not really debating here.Again I urge you to go find that proclaiming web site you were looking for when you accidentally stumbled onto us.
If that is what I am doing, you are doing no better. Except I am willing to talk, and you would rather be unchallenged.
It should be obvious that this isn't possible to debate when I you are speaking to those who don't really debate, but destroy all debate through their invincible ignorance and appeals to selective epistemological nihilist.
Debate might actually occur if your idea of what debate means wasn't perverse to begin with.
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@secularmerlin
So you are saying it wouldn't be right to blame the hurricane for destroying people's homes and displacing a population from the land?
Oh no, you'd say maybe caused.
In that case, adjust accordingly.
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@secularmerlin
You are the one who has an anthropomorphic conception of God.
Clearly.
Carry on.
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The thing that makes me nervous is false accusations of rape.
I imagine it happens a lot when people get drunk and do things they regret.
Imagine if it was declared that all sex outside of marriage is rape, and we stoned rapists to death, removed their sex organs, etc.... That would really make things a lot easier, eh?
Maybe not, but maybe people would think twice about even trying.
The problem with rape is that things get more confusing in a post "sexually liberated" society.
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It has been concretely confirmed through philosophy that humans can philosophize.
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Denial of free will is functionally the same as blaming God for making you such a shithead... or even blaming God for why you don't believe in God.
I'm a fool because God made me this way, it's his fault!
The reason why this is an unhelpful and even harmful belief is because it denies the reality that man doesn't have to live like an animal, tossed to and fro by his passions and the environment. Man has been granted the ability to change his mind.
Yes, we do choose our beliefs. To a certain extent, we all have to, because as even these epistemological nihilists know, we can really only be so sure of things, and even our own understanding is untrustworthy.
To deny free will is to embrace defeatism and make yourself less than human.
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@secularmerlin
Anthropomorphize?
It sounds to me like you are projecting your own superstitions, because nature certainly is an evidence of ultimate reality.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Don't you know yet, all theists are trolls. And here you are.
I have said it before, and I'll say it again.
Trolling is a fishing term.
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@WyseGui
Perhaps you simply did not perceive my addressing it in my response.
If you are not satisfiied, I would appreciate it if you would reword your point for the sake of my comprehension.
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@WyseGui
Yet, none of these examples you listed are The Ultimate Reality. If they were the ultimate reality, that is what it would be.
So I think you are missing the big IF.
The Ultimate Reality cannot be any of the things that you mentioned. I know this. However, if it was, The Ultimate Reality Is That It Is.
As I said, your agitation, irritation, impatience, whatever you want to call it is certainly a manifestation of some type of passion defiling your intellect. It should be apparent that impatience compromises good reason and sense.
If you love The Truth, recognize that charity is a virtue.
Don't give up now when we are inching towards having a good conversation!
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@3RU7AL
You don't think that there is a difference between inspiration that comes from love of God and inspiration that comes from the love of this world?
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@Yassine
You believe that all things were crested by and through God's word, right? That God spoke everything into existence?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Apodictic truth means that once you understand what is actually being said, the truth of it is self evident.
All of Christianity theology is apodictic truth, and The existence of God is the easiest one to demonstrate.
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We don't capitalize God because there is "only one". They are actually different words. They have different meanings. The word "God" capitalized means "The Ultimate Reality". Uncapitalized it means something else, some of which are even gods we acknowledge to have some reality to them.
When the artist wrote on the back of a cereal box, was God their inspiration or did they find their muse in cornflakes? When Shakespeare wrote his plays, was God his inspiration or human experience?
Certainly, you could say that God created all things, but we Orthodox don't even believe that God dictated the bible. It should be obvious that the personalities of the authors are present in the writings.
Muslims believe the Koran was dictated in this way. Maybe some protestants do too. We Orthodox would see that as a type of idolatry.
That said, we do revere scripture, but we also know what it is used for. It is, after all, a product of our church tradition and a part of it. It is our book(s).
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@3RU7AL
Do you mean God or god?
They mean different things.
What do you mean by holy book?
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@WyseGui
The universe is a contingent existence, and is therefore not God.
"the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated."
Note that without observation or postulation, there is no universe.
The Ultimate Reality cannot be a contingent existence.
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@WyseGui
If the ultimate reality is nothing, how is there anything? This is just as nonsensical as saying "It is the truth that there is no truth!", and this is certainly nihilism.
This is not Christian. This is what I am denying and focusing on because it is clearly contradictive. Otherwise you have to be saying God is on some level a specific thing like Christians do. If so I will again refer to my original argument.
What is contradictive? But really...
All the Christianity you are exposed to is likely heretical, so I don't believe.you know what Orthodox Christianity is or what is truly Christian.
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@WyseGui
You say "Is the ultimate reality whatever God is?"
It is closer to "God is whatever The Ultimate Reality is."
To say the ultimmate reality doesn't exist is self defeating.
You can't say, "It is the ultimste reality that there is no ultimate reality!"
It is not rational to deny God.
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@WyseGui
The Ultimate Reality IS God. I have maintained this since the beginning.
That is what God means.
Don't blame me for you not unnderstanding. I am doing the best I know how to help you understand, and you don't. Believe me, and it will be easier. Do you think I am trying to trick you? I am trying to help you in the best way I know how. I am human. Show me some charity, please.
I am telling you that the reason you are struggling with this is because the conception of God in your head conflicts with this. You have a lot of preconceptions, superstitions, and baggage concerning God.
So wash it all away, because it is getting in the way.
The Ultimate Reality. Whatever that is. What it truly Is. That is God. That is what we mean.
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@3RU7AL
There are two ways to interpret deism.
The first way is that you believe God exists.
The second way is that you believe God exists, created the universe, but is not present in the universe.
Which of these forms of deism are you refering to, and if neither, how would you describe deism?
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@WyseGui
Wroooong
God means The Ultimate Reality. That is what it means.
Look, you don't understand my faith. There is nothing shameful about admitting this. I can't really talk about it effectively unless we get this God issue down.
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@YeshuaRedeemed
Bastards are people too.
Just sayin.
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@WyseGui
Ah, now you as are actually giving me something to work with instead of just whining and making ad hominem attacks(well doing both still, but whatever)
The Ultimate Reality is whatever it actually is. Not a single one of those scenarios you present refutes The Ultimate Reality. Assuming any one of these situations was true...
Existence is the product of "random" events.
Existence is a simulation of aliens.
The universe is a fingernail of God(what?)
This universe is all there is
Etc
Every single one of these possibilities, if any of them are true at all, they do not and can not "render the Ultimate reality moot".
And so, you have proven my point that you do not know what The Ultimate Reality means, because not only do you make what should be an obvioisly false claim that some unknown reality could undermine reality as it truly is, but you also make the assumption that when I speak of The Ultimate Reality, God, you think I am talking about an idea of what God is, or some explanation of what God is, or an understanding of what God is.
The Ultimate Reality. What it actually IS independent of any observer what so ever. That is God. The incomprehensible God.
And we Orthodox don't know what God is. Nobody does. The essence of God is unknowable. Think about it, The Ultimate Reality... any idea you have about what that is must be false, because ideas are created things.
So what we know is not so much what God is, but HOW God is. And that is another subject entirely, one that we are not getting into.
What is important is that The Ultimate Reality, what that TRULY ACTUALLY IS.... that is what God is. That is what God means.
And it necessarily exists.
And fyi, I am not assuming anything. I know what I am saying. And if you were truly agnostic, and not a "I don't know, so nobody can know, I know better" types masquerading as an agnostic, you would be open to that possibility. So say, "I don't know", and be open to the possibility that I know what I am talking about and not simply assuming.
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@WyseGui
Me calling you a fool is not an argument. It is an observation. No logical fallacy there.
And as long as you are interpreting "Ultlmate Reality" or "God" as your conception of what you think my conception of what that means is... you make yourself a fool.
Why? You undermine everything you say by doubting the existence of ultimate reality. If there is no Ultimate Reality, nothing you say can be true.
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@WyseGui
You would have a lot easier of a time if you believed me instead of trying to fit what I am saying into what makes sense to you.
The Ultimate Reality.
Where is the room for doubt?
You don't know God.
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I like to give a fool a shot at being reasonable before I mostly ignore them for making pretense.
Nihilists don't deserve to be taken seriously, they are chaos worshipers. The only thing keeping them delusional is that they have no love of The Truth.
They have made this choice.
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@WyseGui
You are quite mistaken in your belief that I don't want you to use logic or reasoning. I actually want you to find reason, and to abandon this logical fallacy of there being no truth.
There is nothing reasonable about saying, "Prove to me that it is true that there is truth."
You need a miracle to prove that there is truth?
This is not being reasonable. This is nihilism.
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@WyseGui
How do you prove that the truth exists to someone who doubts that the truth exists?
There is no reason without truth.
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@WyseGui
Fyi in 2019 one cannot assume gender.
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@WyseGui
What is reason if The Truth doesn't exist?
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@ludofl3x
The Ultimate Reality exists.
It should be obvious that stating the opposite is self defeating.
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@WyseGui
The Truth is self evidently existent.
If you make it anything other than this, you are making the error of the scholastics.
You willing to entertain this? If you don't understand how this can be, make the attempt with me please.
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@3RU7AL
We actually drink wine.
Or we take shots, talk about God, and read writings of the saints.
Our religion is about loving The Truth because of what it is, and loving humanity because being endowed with reason, they are made in the image of The Truth.
What is wrong with this? It is a good thing.
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