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I am a vegan 364 out of 365 days of year!
Then on pascha, I eat more meat than someone should eat in a week in a day!
Hah
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@Stronn
I thought it was obvious I said yes, and there would still be consequences.
But it is against the law anyway, so it doesn't matter. I'm not calling to change the law.
I wiuld be effected if a business were to discriminate on these things, and I think that is worth mentioning.
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@Snoopy
I think comparing sexual orientation to race is kind of asinine, but I am all for loving everyone.
I am concerned about churches being forced by law to bow to the lbgt agenda, because as I said earlier, the type of things that are being proposed at city hall where I live would demand churches to do things we definitely won't do.
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@3RU7AL
Is sexual orientation evena protected class to begin with? In the context of a business being allowed to refuse service?
Not where I live. Not to my knowledge.
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@Stronn
Which question?
If you are talking about the civil rights act question, I have no opinion other than the one I stated. Government should be held to a different standard than private business.
If you are talking about a different question, could you repeat it?
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@WyseGui
"Truth" is not self evident. It is subjective.The fact that you do not need logic and reason to reach it show its bias nature. This is the same reason we sacrificed virgins to volcanoes.
The Ultimate Reality is not subjective.
An example of apodictic truth is "The Ultimate Reality exists". When we say "God", that is what is meant.
And certainly, you can arrive to this conclusion with sound logic, but you do not need logic to know that The Ultimste Reality exists.
The reason humanity have advanced this far is because of the unbiased nature and predictability of logic. True logic, since it is also fallible. The entire universe works this way. Math for example, is logic incarnate, and can be used to explain almost anything that applies logic. But somehow religion has found a way to obtain undeniable truth in the universe without using logic, reason, math, or science which is used to explain every single atom in our universe. The missing component here is human nature. Which religion consistently underestimates.
What about purifying ones heart, mind, and intellect (Nous) does not make one a more rational or logical person? While western Europe and its corrupted form of religion was wallowing in the dark ages, the sciences flourished in the east. In fact, the west didn't even go through their renaissance until after the 4th crusade when the Latin crusades sacked Constantinople and took back with them relics, artwork, and libraries worth of books.
The religion you are thinking of is certainly not the enlightened faith that I came to, not out of indoctrination, but out of a love of The Truth.
Saying you need to understand something for it to be self-evident is a conflicting statement. If something is self evident it is clear and obvious
If you dismiss something before you understand it, this is a foolish thing to do. I am sure you will agree. Yes, you need to understand what is actually being said before you can see that it is self evident.
I think it is also worth noting that Christianity is a mystery religion, meaning that it takes the external form of allegories, parables, and such. That being the case, there is a certain period of catechisis expected before the Mystagogy is revealed.
Spoilers.
It is literally Truth worship.
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I wanr a cake with frosty depictions of puppy murder. Heres my money, you have to make it now.
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@3RU7AL
I believe that government and government funded or contracted businesses be held to a different standard than private businesses.
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@3RU7AL
23,000 plus nominally Christian denominations is religious anarchy, isn't it obvious?
And I for one appreciate the first amendment, even if it allows for the existence of all these heretical churches and false religions. Even God deniers!
The Church respects free will. Freedom of religion is very much in line with what we believe as far as coercion being unacceptable in spiritual healing.
People certainly have the right to be wrong!
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@Stronn
You also have the right to lose business, get negative attention, etc from these business decisions.
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@3RU7AL
Someone does not have to justify their religious beliefs.
Freedom of religion means that someone can be in a church of 1. If that church of 1 considers same sex marriage to be a non-reality, and so refuses to feed into other's delusions about that through participation in their sin, it is unethical to force them to go against that.
The Church has such a reverence for free will that freedom of religion very naturally comes from that. Not just religion, but even the freedom to sin.
Secularism, as a religion, by its very nature deals in coercion. Morality is a thing to be enforced. Secularism even by name has to do with things of this world.
Freedom of religion means that someone can be in a church of 1. If that church of 1 considers same sex marriage to be a non-reality, and so refuses to feed into other's delusions about that through participation in their sin, it is unethical to force them to go against that.
The Church has such a reverence for free will that freedom of religion very naturally comes from that. Not just religion, but even the freedom to sin.
Secularism, as a religion, by its very nature deals in coercion. Morality is a thing to be enforced. Secularism even by name has to do with things of this world.
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@WyseGui
Heterodox Churches certainly have a type of knowledge, but it isn't right knowledge. And that makes sense, because they are usally 2 or more steps away from the original church.
Believe it or not, the insistence on "concrete" is something that comes out of western thinking. The logical end of protestant scholasticism is worldly secularism. Really, nihilism and absurdism.
There is a certain absurdity in expressing the uncreated within the medium of creation, and thst is what we have to work with. The most concrete image of God is still that, an image.
The Orthodox Church understands these things very well. God is incomprehensible, uncircumventable. The Ultimate Realitynis not something that can be disproven, but its existence is not only absolutely necessary, but self evident.
Western theology developed out of what is called "Roman Catholicism". Roman Catholicism broke away from The Orthodox Church, and they developed a different theology. They took matters of the faith as things to be arrived at logically and philosophically. Protestantism inherited this from Roman Catholicism even after breaking away from it. Atheistic philosophy naturally grew out of protestant scholasticism.
Now here is one of the main distinctions between western theology and western philosophy that came out of it and Orthodox, or true Christian theology. Orthodox Theology is apodictic truth in nature. What that means is, when properly understood it is self evident. It isn't arrived at through philosophy or reason. We do not get closer to The Truth through logic and reason, we better abide in The Truth through the cleansing of our hearts, our minds, and the purifying of the intellect.
And surely you can see how this is an undeniable reality. There is a proper way of loving The Truth. The cleansing of the nous.
It isn't so much about believing the right facts as it is about seeing clearly. It is the difference between looking at everything through a dirty lens and taking the time to make sure the lens is clean.
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@Snoopy
Interestingly enough, the way Muslims treat the Koran might be a form of bibliolatry.
The church does not teach that the bible was dictated by God, but inspired. Some call the bible "the word of God", and sure, in a sense you could ssy that... but the bible itself says Jesus Christ is The Word of God.
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@Snoopy
I should clarify, a particular brand of protestantism.
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@Snoopy
Bibliolatry is definitely a mistake. A very protestant thing.
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@WyseGui
Unfortunately, heterodox Christianity a lot of times seems to be "We don't understand any of this stuff, but we got to believe it because we got to believe it."
That isn't really how Orthodox Christianity operates, we know what it is we believe. It is something that is lost in western forms of "Christianity". We also are the original church founded by Jesus and the apostles.
One thing I can tell you with certainty is that neither do we or ever have done anything silly like worship the sun. The God we recognize is actually truth itself.
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On multiple occassions have I unjustly been refused service in an establishment.
How many of you have actually experienced this?
Yet here I am, recognizing it as a right of a business to do this.
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@ludofl3x
It was discrimination based on appearance, not behavior.
And no, I wasn't walking around without shoes or shirt.
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I just want to say that I have personally been refused services by businesses, even kicked out before walking 5 feet in the building.
No, I didn't do anything wrong.
Yes, it made me want to throw bricks through their windows.
Yet here I am, still respecting this right.
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@3RU7AL
I don't really think it matters the reason.
A business owner has the right to render or refuse service to anyone.
If you recognize that right, there is no need for silly things like piety testing.
Government institutions or government contracters should for obvious reasons not have this liberty, but that isn't to say they shouldn't discriminate at all. Germans living in Germany shouldn't vote in our elections or benefit from government programs(obvious exceptions would be things like foreign aide).
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The will of Jesus' flesh is always in submission to the divine will.
To say that Jesus has 2 natures but only 1 will is the heresy of monothelitism.
To say that Jesus has 1 nature is the heresy of monophysitism.
1 God, 3 persons, consubstantial of 1 essence and undivided. 2 natures in the person of The Son. That is what the church teaches. It does matter.
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@Stephen
Just as the flesh might fight someone who really wants to exercise and get in better shape, so does the flesh of Jesus fight Him despite his will and the father's will being one.
And that is what the church teaches, and the church certainly has the highest authority over these matters.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
A cake covered in frosted lingams
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@3RU7AL
I imagine a business with a "No blacks served" policy would have a hard enough time staying open. Without even law getting in the way. That would cause a ruckus.
But I do believe that business owners should have the right to do these things, even if they are morally questionable decisions.
I don't believe the government should tell churches they need to have homosexual clergymen, ordane women into the priesthood, or force them to marry homosexuals, things like that.
And believe it or not, this is the kind of stuff that goes through city hall where I live.
The government itself should remain as non-descriminatory as possible I say, and I even mean that to the extent of getting rid of certain demographic relsted questions. If the government doesn't discriminate based on race, it doesn't need to ask about it. If the government doesn't discriminate based on sex, it doesn't need to ask about it.
But thats all just like my opinion, and I really try to stay out of politics.
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@3RU7AL
Discrimination is not marrying someone of the same sex because they are the same sex as you.
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What do Iraq and Afghanistan have in common?
They both border Iran.
If we do go to war with Iran, I can't say I didn't see it coming.
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@3RU7AL
Orthodox Christianity is not a legalistic faith.
In other words, if an Orthodox baker was asked to make a wedding cake for a man and his horse, it would be a matter of his own personal conscience whether or not he should go through with that. It is between him and God.
So in this case it is a matter of whether or not you respect the baker's right of free will, not whether or not you respect his religion. Yet on the other hand, and truthfully, that is what religious liberty is about. Respecting another's free will.
And if the secular authorities were to force a man to work against his conscience in a manner like this, ethical or not, we recognize that all civil and governing authorities were put in place by God, even the evil ones that demand craftsmen to construct idols. And in a very real way, it may not be much different for an Orthodox baker to be forced to make a cake for one of these abominable weddings as it would be for an iconographer to be forced to paint images of some pagan deity.
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@Harikrish
We certainly do not worship a dead Jewish corpse. That would be silly.
We worship God, the Ultimate Reality, who through the incarnation filled all things, deifying the universe, becoming death in order that death be conquered and life eternal be realized unto all who abide in His Word.
To the glory of The Father, Son, Holy Spirit who is blessed forever and unto ages of ages amen.
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@Stephen
As I said, it is our book. It is not for you to interpret. If your interpretation doesn't match with what the church teaches, it is wrong.
We wrote the book. It is a part of our Holy Tradition. We know what it means. End of story.
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@3RU7AL
If you're going to claim a "religious objection" you should be required to prove you are following every law with equal enthusiasm or explain why one teaching should be prioritized over another.
I don't believe that is how the first amendment works.
Besides that, protestant Christianity is far too diverse for this to be practical anyway.
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@TheRealNihilist
The Ultimate Reality
It is what it is.
Whatever the ultimate reality is, that is God.
I ask God, "Who are you?"
God replies "I Am That I Am"
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@ludofl3x
I think there is a big difference between spreading bad publicity and using the force of the law.
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@TheRealNihilist
In some sense, we are like nihilists.
To you, the world is everything and God is nothing. And so your hope is in the void.
To us, the world is nothing, and God is everything. And so our hope is in eternity.
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@TheRealNihilist
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@TheRealNihilist
The Ultimate Reality is what God means.
That is what we mean.
If you don't accept this, you are arguing to no profit, and showing that your accusations of my being arbitrary are really projecting on your part.
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@TheRealNihilist
As it is everytime someone uses this argument, it is very flimsy.
Unicorns are not defined as "The Ultimate Reality".
As The Ultimate Reality exists, there is a fulfillment of what God means that exists.
It should be apparent that nihilism itself is an embrace of arbitrariness.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
If you cannot accept that The Truth is God, as I have been saying, what I am saying is true. You can be insulted all you like, but it would make more sense if you believed what I was telling you.
After all, if Christianity is apodictic truth as I am telling you, it is only possible that you see this by first believing.
That is the context in which the faith is open to those who approach it with sincerity, charity, and humility.
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@3RU7AL
Unlike the west which sees theological conclusions as being arrived at philosophically and through reason, we in the ancient faith understand that Christianity is fundamentally apodictic truth.
The Ultimate Reality is God. It is self evident that God exists.
When people here demand that I prove God exists, they are not asking me to prove the ultimate reality exists, they are asking me to prove their own conception of God exists.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I think it really means that you aren't hopeless.
The Truth will set you free.
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@Stephen
I am telling you what the church teaches, and it is our book to interpret, not yours. Jesus willingly died on the cross. It was Jesus' will to do the will of the father. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Yet the flesh of Jesus was still in full submission to that divine will.
And so, like us, Christ was subject to temptation and human frailty. Yet, Christ did not sin. And so we too can take up our crosses, deny ourselves, and obtain theosis in Christ.
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The Orthodox Chruch maintains that just as Christ's kingdom is not of this world, so must the church be distinct from the state.
From Saint John Chrysostom...
"The decision to receive treatment does not lie with the man who administers the medicine, but actually with the patient. That wonderful man, Paul, knew when this fact when he said to the Corinthians, "Not that we have lordship over your faith, but are helpers to your joy." For Christians above all men are forbidden to correct the stumblings of sinners by force. When secular judges convict wrong-doers under the law, they show their authority is complete and compel men, whether they will or no, to submit to their methods. But in the case we are considering it is necessary to make a man better not by force but by persuasion. We neither have authority granted to us by law to restrain sinners, nor, if it were, should we know how to use it, since God gives the crown to those who are kept from evil, not by force, but by choice.
For this reason a lot of tact is needed, so that the sick may be persuaded of their own accord to submit to the treatment of the priests, and not only that, but be grateful to them for their cure. If a man struggles when he is bound(for he may still choose to), he makes his suffering worse. And if he ignores the words which cut like steel, he adds a second wound through his contempt, and intention to heal becomes the occasion of a more serious disease. For the man does not exist who can by compulsion cure someone else against their will."
And this should make clear a few things.
1. We recognize that spiritual illness is at the root of these issues.
2. We have a therepeutic method for curing these spiritual illnesses.
3. It is not on the healer but the sick to not only to consent to treatment, but follow through with it.
4. We do not heal through compulsion, it has to be in the will of the one being healed.
5. The church is not intended to be a secular authority.
Also worth noting, caeseropapism is recognized as a heresy.
All this said, secular(by this I mean worldy) governments love to exert control over the church!
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@Stronn
I like many here was at one time a know-it-all dipshit. I'm pretty sure that is how I became an atheist.
Thankfully, I am not an atheist anymore. There was a time.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Actually, as you resist education, that would make you guilty of the invincible ignorance fallacy on top of your straw man.
Really though, that isn't my argument. My argument is that I am engaging with fools. If the people I am arguing with refuse to accept the way we understand our terms, they refusing to engage in debate.
I can't compromise to your errors.
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@TheRealNihilist
Definition courtesy merriam-webster...
"capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality"
Definition courtesy Oxford...
(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
I'm being arbitrary, but you are arguing with the dictionary.
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@TheRealNihilist
That is simply untrue.
The Ultimate Reality is what is God means. That is certainly how we Orthodox understand God. You confuse god with God.
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@Stephen
I think it is pretty obvious from the scripture in question that there is in fact no disagreement.
And certainly, Jesus willingly went to the cross, no one took his life, he gave it.
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@TheRealNihilist
When you ask me to prove that God exists, you are asking me to prove that there is ultimate reality.
You can't know what you are asking.
And indeed you don't, otherwise you would see how to say God doesn't exist is reject reality.
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In the trinity of Father, Son, Holy Spirit, we have Jesus the son.
In that 1 person, there is united 2 natures, the fully divine, and the fully human. That being the case, Jesus felt everything it meant to be a man. That God may fill all things and all righteousness be fulfilled.
On the cross, Jesus was singing this psalm to reveal its fulfillment...
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this."
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@Deb-8-a-bull
"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
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