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@3RU7AL
We certainly do not acknowledge homosexual marriage as being a reality.
Just because I don't go around pointing out every sin that there is does not mean that I don't have objections.
Truthfully, you don't even know what a sin is, and as you are an unbeliever, I don't really respect your appeal to our scripture.
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Orthodox Christianity is certainly not anti-science. If that was a thing, we would not have concepts such as gnosis or epignosis.
Besides that, when the barbarians plunged western Europe into the dark ages, the sciences flourished in eastern Europe where Orthodox Christianity was strong.
Western Europe didn't have its renaissance until after looting our libraries during the 4th crusade.
Even the sciences that flourished in the Muslim world can be credited to Christian influence.
Orthodox Christianity is an enlightened faith.
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@Paul
"science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
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@3RU7AL
Some places religion has to be kept in the closet, even in today's world. There are many places today when you cannot openly profess Christianity.
I am not arguing that homosexuals should be oppressed. I am arguing that the government should not tell us to choose between betraying our faith and obeying the government.
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@3RU7AL
Second Circuit Says Sexual Orientation Is Protected Under Title VIIWith a broader circuit split, this case will almost certainly give the high court another opportunity to resolve the issue. [LINK]
I don't believe this actually relevent to the right to refuse service because of sexual orientation.
And truthfully, the legislation referenced in the OP has to do with protecting the rights of religious organizations.
So really, instead of talking about baking cakes, we should be talking about marrying homosexuals in churches and preventing ordinations based on sexual orientations.
Really, for you to take offense at this legislation is to show contempt for our right to governance of our own religious affairs.
As I said, in my town even, legislation is being pushed in city hall that constitutes as government meddling in our religious affairs.
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@3RU7AL
None of this really has any bearing on my opinion that comparing race to sexual orientation is asinine.
At least one of these things can be kept in the closet.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Watching your wording there, nice. The last thing you want to do is use a loaded word.You " discriminate " based on religion. This comment is going straight in my ( Mopac file ) for later use.Do you Orthodox Christians have a special way of indicating your a ortodox chistians?It sounds like you, a special handshake maybe..I reckon i could easy look like a orthodox Christian. Actually mopac. Stuff it. For the next five minutes after i send this post i will actually be a ortodox Christian.Ready for this ?And my time startssssssssssssssss now
You would have to be baptized and chrismated, and that would require a period of catechisis.
I doubt you would get passed the BS detector of someone ordained as a presbyter, but if it will get you to experience the divine liturgy, I encourage you to try.
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@3RU7AL
Wait, because you think one's a "choice"?So you're totally fine with discrimination based on someone's religion because that's also clearly a "choice"?
I don't like using the word discrimination, because I think it is a loaded word. If you can tell something apart from another, you are discriminating.
Yes, I discriminate based on religion. So does my church. If you were to walk in to my church, you would not be allowed to partake of the eucharist. This is not because we are mean, it is because you are not Orthodox Christian.
When I got married, I married someine nb of the opposite sex as me. I did this because I was being discriminatory. I would not have married someone of the same sex.
I don't believe that something like homosexuality is an innate thing. One isn't a thief for desiring to take things that don't belong to them. One isn't a homosexual for desiring to have sexual relations with someine of the same sex.
And just as a repentant thief no longer has to be a thief, someone who repents of homosexuality no longer has to be a homosexual.
Race and sexual orientation are not the same. One is a matter of choice one genetics.
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@Stronn
While I understand why you would believe that, I also am of the opinion that this is very naive. Good arguments alone do not persuade people. Good arguments also don't make truth. That is why people study rhetoric, and why there is every manner of sophistry available to exploit the darkness that people prefer to the light.
What someone considers to be a good argument can be and often is a very arbitrary thing.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
@Wrick-It-Ralph
lol, yeah. I wonder if he realizes that nobody is ever going to take him seriously outside of people already indoctrinated in his specific belief
"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause."
I post these scriptures not to convince you, but to show that there is nothing here I experience that wasn't expected before I came.
I suffer these things for the sake of those who have ears to hear. If no one hears, a work is still being done on my heart.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
You're just assuming the other ones are spreading lies. There is no difference between your lies and their lies. That's just subjective on your part.
There is quite a difference between a mystery religion that teaches love of God through abiding in The Truth and love of others who are made in the image of God and then say, the many Greek mystery religions that more resemble the debauchery you find in a frat house.
I am not assuming anything, I speak with knowledge. But rather than talk about these mystery cults, I'd rather speak about the position I represent.
You're right, it's not like other mystery religions. Yours is much more dangerous and poisons a lot more minds. So there's that. In this sense, I'd prefer ones that are spreading lies.
It sounds to me like you fear what you don't understand. There is nothing dangerous about my religion. If there is any danger, it is in deviation from my religion. Those who prefer lies to The Truth will be cursed with strong delusion.
Okay cool then. If that's what you call ultimate reality, then what you speak of is both incoherent and impossible. I would agree that reality is eternal and nothing precedes time because time is an illusion that is created by space and motion. Really, the term spacetime is a misnomer. It should be called spacemotion. (copyright pending ;))
If time is an illusion, then the ultimate reality precedes time quite naturally, and what I am saying is not as incoherent to you as you claim.
The rest of what you said is just factually false and therefore incoherent if you try to apply it to reality. If knowledge was a calculator and your claim was an irrational equation, then the calculator would be flashing error right now.
Not false at all. Mathematics very naturally falls apart when it hits The Singularity. The Singularity is not incoherent so much as it is incomprehensible.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
The ultimate reality is always the ultimate reality. It never was not the ultimate reality, nor will it ever not be the ultkmate reality. It is eternal.
The ultimate reality does not change. It is perfect. If the ultimate reality could change, that would mean that time is a greater reality. If there is a grester reality, what we are discussing does not meet the criteria for what the ultimate reality is.
The ultimate reality precedes time.
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Christianity is not like other mystery religions. Instead of spreading lies, we teach to love God by abiding in Truth with sincerity.it turns out that mystery religions have been spreading lies for centuries.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
I am not talking about gods, I am talking about God. A toaster is not the ultimate reality, and therefore can not be God.
If your god is a toaster though, I will have you know that those who place their trust in lying vanities forsake their own salvation. This toaster god is a created thing. It began to exist, and one day it will cease to exist. It is not worthy of your veneration, let alone your adoration.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
Not god. This is a different word than God. I am talking about God.
The word "God" means "the ultimate reality".
I think you will find that there are many conceptions of God.
That said, a conception of God is not truly God. The uncreated is very much distinct from anything in creation. Conceptions are by nature created things.
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@Wrick-It-Ralph
We likely do disagree on what ultimate reality is, and I'd love to talk about it. I would, however, like to point something out first...
You are no longer an atheist, you believe that God exists.
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@disgusted
If the ultimate reality exists only in the imaginations of humans, it doesn't fulfill the basic requirements of what it means to be the ultimate reality.
You are talking nonsense as usual.
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@Alec
I would hope so!
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@Stronn
Likewise, some people have their mind set so that no amount of evidence is sufficient to meet their unreasonable expectations of what constitutes proof.
It comes down to this: we should act as if we have freewill, because we don't have any choice.
It has been determined thst we have free will!
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@secularmerlin
If that was truly the case, you would realize that just because there is not sufficient evidence for it to be proven to you does not mean that there isn't sufficient evidence for it to be proven for somebody else.
Instead you effectively saying, "Me not knowing is proof that no one can know."
This is fake agnosticism.
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@secularmerlin
Just because there is not sufficient evidence for it to be proven to you does not mean that there isn't sufficient evidence for it to be proven for somebody else.
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@keithprosser
It certainly doesn't have to be that way.
Do a thought experiment for a moment and accept that I mean exactly what I am saying. Imagine even that I am telling the truth.
It should be obvious that as long as someone is in denial of God, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. Quite the contrary, if they get anything other than mockery or scorn they are getting more than they deserve.
That is why I can't accept that anyone who denies God understands what it is they are denying. It is really better this way.
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@keithprosser
I believe it has been scientifically proven that it is impossible to account for all variables. This being the case, the free will/determinism debate is absurd in that it is never going to be conclusively solved in a scientific sense. There will always be room to doubt either position.
What I do know is that acceptance of the responsibility that comes with free will is better for the spiritual improvement of the individual.
The church teaches that we have free will. If you do not accept this, you are effectively blaming God for your prelest.
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@secularmerlin
You wouldn't understand my claims about reality if I even told you, because if you cared about understanding what I was saying, you would have already admitted that the ultimate reality exists long ago.
Instead you want to argue about whether the conception you have of a conception I have exists.
You know what ultimate reality means. You know it exists. You don't want to admit it does because you have an irrational fear of being exposed as an idiot.
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Having a flawless argument is not going to convert people. People are not converted through debate. They are converted by love.
Love is not really something that can be done effectively over a screen.
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@secularmerlin
@Wrick-It-Ralph
It is kind of pointless to debate with someone who is in denial of ultimate reality.
It is also kind of pointless to debate when a common understanding hss not been established.
And the thing is, it is impossible to reach a common understanding with a nihilist or a nihilist in denial because the very nature of their position is to destroy everything. Common understanding is meaningless. Debate to the nihilist is simply an exercise in strife.
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@dustryder
No, but I lost countless hours of sleep reading through all the leaked e-mails and as a result have been able to predict the news cycle for the last 3 years(to the point of even impressing people I know personally)
And I'm pretty sure that all this anti-Trump stuff originated in Hilary's campaign. The Russia stuff, everything.
Also, what little faith I ever had in politics has been completely destroyed as a result.
I don't really care anymore. I am not interested in the Mueller report.
You can at least have the comfort of knowing that I don't vote. I'm at peace with the reality that no matter what happens I am going to have to live with other people's bad decisions.
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I don't think President Trump did anything wrong.
It looks to me like democrats just want to undermine his presidency and remove him from office. The justification for doing so is just kind of an afterthought.
This obsession with destroying Trump has led to us having how many 24/7 Trump news networks now?
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@WyseGui
If you don't believe there is ultimate reality, I can only conclude a few things...
1. You have no idea what you are denying.
2. You are lying.
3. You are a fool.
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, and going with 1. You have to understand, from my perspective, you aren't standing on anything, so I am not impressed with your pretense of rationality.
This is the only thing we need to talk about now.
The Ultimate Reality.
What do you think that means?
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@Greyparrot
President Trump may possibly be the greatest shit talker to ever take office.
When he first started running, I thought, "This guy needs to get elected, because he will revitalize the satire industry."
I was wrong though. He is way funnier than the people who make fun of him. The people who make fun of him aren't even funny.
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@dustryder
The Mueller report is like the length of a novel. Maybe something a little easier to digest and clear cut would be nice.
Thank you
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@Greyparrot
Same subject matter really, so I mean, its alright but I guess you can say I'm looking more so for primary source like footage of someone saying something and then an example of how it has been spun or taken out context.
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@dustryder
An easy example would be something like...
*clip of news station story*
*clip of source material that contradicts reporting*
*clip of news station story*
*clip of source material that contradicts reporting*
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Ideally, what I would really like to see are examples of the media misrepresenting qhat someone says, and then showing what they are actually saying in context.
Greyparrot, your contributions are still pretty good though.
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@dustryder
If you would provide examples, for example, a statement taken out of context and then the. statement in context.
Sources please. Like videos and stuff.
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Ham wasn't cursed, his son Canaan and his descendants were.
Also, calling someone "low IQ nigger" is not very nice.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
There are just as many ways to eat vegan as there are to eat omnivorous. Not all ways are healthy. If you want to eat healthy as a vegan, it is integral that you are mindful of what you eat.
But I neither eat vegan for health reasons or for ethical reasons. I eat this way for, and I hate to say it lest anyone think this is a requirement in Orthodoxy, religious reasons. To me, it is a religious practice.
And speaking of diet and religion, if you were to follow the prescribed fasts of the church, you would be a vegan fornover half of the year. However, it is not a legalistic thing, which is really what I am wanting to point out. Someone can be an orthodox and not do these fasts. However, it is is accepted that it is better for you if you do.
Little bit of a tangent, I'm not really trying to make this a religious topic or anything. I am just pointing out this is another reason why some might prefer the vegan diet.
In fact, I think Some Jains, Hindus, and Buddhists practice this diet. Also worth noting, the easiest way to eat kosher or Halal is to go vegan!
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@WyseGui
I would appreciate it if you gave me a little bit more charity. Your constant insults are neither necessary or helpful. I am not insulting, even though I know you are in the mud and not nearly as informed about this subject as you would like to make pretense. Perhaps you would have an easier time if you ditched the attitude. Bear with me please, and with patience.
Nous does not mean "common sense and practical knowledge". Not in any context that I am aware of, and certainly not in the context of Orthodox theology. It is, as I said, the intellect as a whole, including not only the mind, but influences, priorities, pulls, passions, etc. It is like the eye of the heart and soul.
The Ultimate Reality means exactly what it means. You say it means "Objective reality, which of course exists".
Perhaps if you did not have all this baggage and superstition attached to the word "God", you would not struggle as much. But here, let me help a little more.
All definitions courtesy merriam-webster...
Entity - being, existence; especially : independent, separate, or self-contained existence
Being - the quality or state of having existence
Existence - the state or fact of having being especially independently of human consciousness and as contrasted with nonexistence
I hope this helps to reveal something to you. When I say, "God is The Supreme and Ultimate Reality", I am really talking about the truest, all encompassing, all pervading, uncircumventable, perfect, reality. Absolute existence.
Truly, reality itself, and in the truest sense of the word. In fact, to say there is no Ultimate reality is to deny reality and existence itself. As our very experience scientifically confirms, there is some form of existence, reality. If there is some form of Reality, there is an ultimate reality.
So I am sure even you can see, if you are willing, that God obviously exists, and it is self evident. Apodictic truth. Likewise, an entire tree of logic built off faulty premises will come to reasonable conclusions that are false. That being the case, in ones love of The Truth, calibrating the tool that is being used to measure and cleaning the lens of one's instrument is more integral than reason itself.
Because The Word of Truth itself said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God", not "Blessed is the one who is best at mental gymnastics, they will see God", neither "Blessed are those who are philosophically advanced and logical, they will see God."
A pure heart is a clean and undefiled nous.
And truly, even purifying the nous as the active process of abiding in The Way, The Truth, and The Life is an apodictic truth.
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@WyseGui
I will not cleanse that(the nous) and it isn't muddied
The fact that you think you have a perfectly clean nous is definitive proof that you are in a state of prelest.
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@WyseGui
Reality in the truest and most complete sense.
The Ultimate Reality.
You know, the way it actually is as opposed to how I or anyone can describe it.
So you are saying there is no Ultimate Reality?
Can you say it plainly and simply?
"There is no ultimate reality"
That would clear up a lot. If that isn't what you are. saying, tell me what you are saying.
And if you can do that, I will tell you the reason it must exist and that it isn't reasonable to say otherwise.
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Post some examples of the news media twisting words or removing context to paint a certain picture for political reasons.
Can be any side of the political spectrum
Please source with proofs.
This should be good.
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@WyseGui
The Ultimate Reality.
It is exactly what that means.
How can words do it justice?
It isn't what you can think it is, that's for sure. It is not a conception, it is reality in the truest and most complete sense.
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@WyseGui
Your impatience is a symptom of a muddied nous.
The therepeutic method of the church is intended to cleanse these defilements.
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@WyseGui
Jesus said, "Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God"
The Nous is what we are talking about here. It commomly gets translated into "intellect" or "mind", etc. So what does this mean to purify the nous?
If we were to honestly examine ourselves, we would find that we have motivations, influences, passions, and all sorts of things that effect sound judgement. To purify the nous is the active effort of discerning these idols that sneak their way into our psyche, obscuring our discernment, and through love of The Truth, allow The Spirit of Truth to topple these strongholds.
Another way of putting it....
We are bearers of the image of God. Purifying the nous is like dusting the dirt off this image, wiping off the muck so that the image can be seen clearly.
The discipline is in abiding in The Truth. That being the case, it is more than simply believing with the mind. It is a walk.
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@WyseGui
The Ultimate Reality exists.
Do you dispute this?
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@WyseGui
I understand the words you are using. I just do not agree. I get that the Ultimate Reality is referring to God, although it sounds like you are describing a concept and not an entity, but it is not apodictic truth. It isn't a fact that God exists
The Ultimate Reality is not a concept. The Ultimate Reality obviously exists, right?
I don't know what purifying means, so not necessarily. Especially since you already said you don't need logic and reason to get closer to "The Truth". How you came to the religion doesn't matter, you are fully indoctrinated now. What does purifying mean in context and why would it lead to more rational logic?
If you don't know what I mean, why are you dismissing it offhand? It would be more reasonable find out what it is I mean rather than simply dismissing me as being "indoctrinated".
If you want to be reasonable, by all means, ask me to clarify what I mean. It takes the same amount of thought to accept something immediately as it does to dismiss something immediately, you know.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I admit I am bad at taking them consistently, but supplements should help with that aort of thing... vitamins that is.
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I don't believe there is anything wrong with eating meat. It is really just part of my discipline.
That means most moralistic vegans find me obnoxious, and the reverse is true as well.
We fast over half the year in Orthodoxy. Most Orthodox are vegan during these times. For me it is a bit more extreme, since I am always vegan. This is one reason I didn't post during lent.
It might be surprising, but I feel healthy, and I enjoy what I eat. I am content.
I have been a consistent vegetarian for 3 years, with periods before that.
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