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@TheMorningsStar
@Nyxified
@ADreamOfLiberty
We would never entertain a young-looking, botox-filled, plastic-surgeoned 76 year old claim to be 30 in any official sense. Why do we allow males to claim to be females and vice versa for extremely similar body modification levels?There is not one genuine reply that you can give me which disagrees that doesn't commit a logical fallacy, try it.
Quoting myself from another thread.
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Secularmerlin, you just made transphobic point, while meaning to do the opposite.
We would never entertain a young-looking, botox-filled, plastic-surgeoned 76 year old claim to be 30 in any official sense. Why do we allow males to claim to be females and vice versa for extremely similar body modification levels?
There is not one genuine reply that you can give me which disagrees that doesn't commit a logical fallacy, try it.
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@secularmerlin
Cancel culture affects science a lot. This isn't a conspiracy theory it's a conspiracy reality.
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@Nyxified
I'd challenge you to give a better treatment for gender dysphoria that doesn't amount to conversion therapy, since we already know that doesn't work.
Extrapolate all.functionally equal treatments given to people with similar bodily dysphoric mental disorders; the anorexic, the bulimic, the 'I am so ugly I should cut myself and die' depressed/BPD'.
Then, mixing instead meds and therapies for them, tweak it towards helping the dysphoric person learn the real difference between sex and gender and do not let them fall victim to conflating the two. They should love their sex, be as a feminine a male and as masculine a female as they naturally are.
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@Nyxified
As long as you put in the bare minimum effort to affirm a person's gender (because, even if you consider it a charade [I don't, but I digress], it's undeniable that it spares trans people from the hell that gender dysphoria can be at least regarding their interaction with you
Not at all. It enables the hellish dysphoria's hold on them with an iron vice grip. They now learn they were right to hate their body and sex.
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@secularmerlin
Is it my business to care if somebody in my nation is raped or robbed from and it's not my body or money?
Just curious how the 'not your body' argument works.
Is it my business to care if suicide rates go up but it's not my suicide?
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@Polytheist-Witch
can be trans and never transition
No, you cannot.
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@secularmerlin
@Theweakeredge
@Double_R
@Nyxified
@Aowdd
So far the only people to reply on-topic have agreed with me.
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@zedvictor4
Loathing is not there from me.
They do loathe their bodies, I don't understand your question.
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I don't quite know. I am curious.
At this point, I am not sure how to ever present my stance irl or even online outside of here without trans people taking it totally wrong.
My stance is as follows:
- Sex =/= gender, sex is physical and gender is sociological or even psychological
- When 'transitioning gender' one is actually transitioning the characteristics of their physical body (HRT and operation). That is mimicking the sex, not the gender of the one they want to mimic. To mimic the gender, they'd only need to mimic haircuts, clothing, ways of talking and acting as well as hobbies and interests associated with the other gender.
- If both the previous arguments are simulatenously true, one has to wonder what is at the root of transgenderism. Is it feminine males and masculine females or is it more so loathing of one's body they were born into? It follows that we'd only want to enable the former, not the self-loathing latter. We would not give artificial hormones to enable an anorexic to remain less hungry and happy, we would not try to help a depressed person enable their sad, hermitic and toxic lifestyle of social withdrawal and poor health... So on and so forth. Why then would we allow a person who wants to mimic the sex, not gender, they fancy having and enable their self-loathing of their natural, healthy body rather than treat the psychiatric condition that is their hatred and dysphoria?
I don't get it. I can't get it. I am forced to zip my mouth in order to blend in with the left wing of this modern generation. It is so horrible because I am so proudly left-wing in basically all other ways.
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@Lemming
this post you just did there was great. more of that less of the other stuff, thank you.
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@TheMorningsStar
@Lemming
@ADreamOfLiberty
Then I will agree with you, it is possible the directors were racist, not Tolkein.
That is the end of the discussion for me.
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@Lemming
Dude, you can just preach then. Tell I lost this to yourselves in this echo chamber. There is a lot to answer for.
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@Lemming
Wormtongue was white, Sauron was white before he got crushed by an ocean, Gothmog the orc was white, that one orc in the third movie with a skull on his head was white, Denethor was white.
So, the best/greatest amongst the orcs were white... I have already told you, orcs in Tolkein's world are complete and utter BS, they are not even orcs they are some rodent vulture ass being.
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@Lemming
Why are all the caucasian-type races good guys except Saruman.
Use your head. Either the previous director(s) are/were subliminally being racist or Tolkein's description was. Surely it has to be.
There is definitely an undertone to the whole thing, you have to be blind not to see it, I even noticed it when I was young, I literally noticed it before 'systemic racism' was a thing in the media people really spoke about as a commonplace thing. I am telling you that there was a completely unfair bias towards Caucasians being good guys in the visual narrative of LotR. You can play your rhetoric games here all you want.
Orcs are not meant to even look brown or dark or beige, they are meant to be olive green muscular af big beings not some hideous mole-rate looking scavenger.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Sorry, let me be clear the orcs being shadier/muskier and hideous was the lesser part.
The elves and hobbits all being caucasian af was the major gripe. Dwarfs have to be very caucasian that's a given.
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@Lemming
Well either the director is racist or Tolkein is, take your pick. I'll take the L on Tolkein if you wish.
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@Lemming
"Ariosto
An early example of an orco appears in Ludovico Ariosto's Orlando Furioso (1516), as a bestial, blind, tusk-faced monster inspired by the Cyclops of the Odyssey.[b]
Tolkien
The orco from Orlando, along with the Old English word orc (in the sense of an ogre, like Grendel), was part of the inspiration for Tolkien's orcs in his The Lord of the Rings[3] In other manuscripts Tolkien wrote a side-note on the word:
Which is truer to this.
or
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@Lemming
Why don't you show me orc mythology please then.
They are based on ogres but converted into warriors.
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@Lemming
Even at their most hideous they should appear handsome in a rugged way:
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@TheMorningsStar
As with the Italian orco (“ogre”) and the word ogre itself, it ultimately derives from the Latin Orcus, a god of the underworld. The Old English creatures were most likely the inspiration for the orcs that appear in J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings.
Ogres and orc-like versions of Ogres existed long before Tolkein. He twisted them into hideous disfigured creatures for no reason at all. Their colouring is marred/dark.
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@Polytheist-Witch
They literally made the law of love and what do you even mean
When we kill a farm animal how is that a law of love?
Are you vega
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@Polytheist-Witch
Describe the personality of your creator to me.
I reckon god would be narcissistic and if nit, at least sociopathic in my own outlook and prediction
Honestly I am kind of agnostic or atheistic if it comes to being sure god is worthy of worship. I believe there is a creator but idk if it deserves worship
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@secularmerlin
Theism relies on that excuse
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@secularmerlin
No one has to do anything to realize that they are in fact not comfortable living as the gender they were assigned at birth and the pronouns used by others,
They have to do something for others to know it and react to it. That is the difference between a femboy/sissy fetish, being a recreational drag queen and a consistent trans woman identity.
while it would be polite to use their pronouns and while it is strictly speaking inaccurate not to, has nothing to do with this internal state.
It has everything to do with it. In fact I agree that the internal state means nothing towards that unless the person acts and makes externally, verbally clear that their internal state is that way.
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@secularmerlin
I made absolutely zero assumptions.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I am speaking of personality/psyche of the god, not actual utility.
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@secularmerlin
You are saying some do less or more than others prior to demanding that people use their preferred pronouns and change their gender on legal/official documentation.
You are, however, ignoring the decision and action of said demand.
I also am perplexed at your stance. You start off saying you realise they do not conform to the social norms of their birth-assigned sex's gender and then deny they take action to end up as either genderfluid or transitioned into the other gender.
You are actually taking the most extreme case of someone who looks and acts totally masculine and is male-sexed but demands we use she/her pronouns (or vice versa) to strawman my side of the discussion/debate. Most will take actions to appear and behave as their preferred gender.
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@secularmerlin
They literally can/do, they become a trans woman or trans man respectively, if they choose to transition.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
I already know the atheistic answer.
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I already do and yes I still would.
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Would you consider them to be narcissistic assholes or not?
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Elf warriors outside lotr:
Elf warriors inside lotr:
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Lotr orcs:
Proper orcs outside lotr:
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I will agree that JRR Tolkein is truly racist.
In JRR's book and the movies, other than Saruman and Smeagol, evil was generally darker-skinned beings and good was light-skinned beings.
Even stranger is that he went out of his way to wrongly depicts orcs as both dark skinned, frail and ugly while his elves are all pale, tall and handsome/beautiful.
I am not being racist in calling ugly vs handsome and beautiful there. Look at the LotR orcs and then look at the elves.
In all mythology other than LotR racist shit, elves are frail and small, orcs are massive, greenish/olive/light-brown, massively muscular and aesthetically awesome.
A true orc towers the fuck over a true elf and is far more handsome and isnt even that dark at all.
The elves in JRR's book have speciesist and racist plot favoritism as do the hobbits. The orcs are called evil and scumlike for wanting to get hold of the ring so they can use it to defeat the wrathful rule that elves and wizards have had over them for centuries. The entire story is so biased that somehow the dwarfs, which are meant to be enemies of elves, are serving the elves as loyal frontline soldiers...
Wtf. No black hobbits, no black elves, no black dwarfs... all called good guys.
So, while the casting is not true to the racist book, I say hip hip hooray.
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@ILikePie5
That is why force is required to get tax money out of the greedy.
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@secularmerlin
Let me explain the direct decision aspect.
A feminine man is not a woman. A masculine woman is not a man.
The choice made to transition and all verbal (he becomes they or she) and vice versa involved with trans is down to the individual's active choices and demands even.
The choice to get aroused by things one isn't aroused by and to not be aroused by things one is is outside of active decision, the only choice is how one acts on those urges.
I ask to you how a trans person doesn't choose and doesn't make active decisions. Please elaborate.
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@secularmerlin
Yes they do. Unlike being gay or lesbian etc, being trans involves active decisions and actions.
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@Greyparrot
Correct. It should tax the rich more to give to the poor, LOL! Didn't think that one through did you?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Buddy the government lets them fucking starve, do you think they count them in quotas/surveys
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I'm confused, sorry, are we discussing if the rich within the country are richer than the other ones?
The rich in Kenya for instance (never had a drop of communism) are very rich, yes. The poor are also extremely poor.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Not true at all. I actually know about pretty much every single one there as it's a perfect case study continent-wide for the harms of extreme capitalism.
The few places that dabbled in so-called communism are just more aggressive/violent. Poverty in Africa is severe in the capitalist nations.
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@ILikePie5
Um... that's exactly what I'm saying. Except replace 'food' with 'food, hygiene products and happiness'.
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@Greyparrot
Yes, that is what the rich do to the poorMore Marxist BS. It would be funny to just dismiss this as the ramblings of the uneducated, but we have a special breed in D.C. at war with American suppliers and producers at the moment.Bare Shelves Biden is the result when you entertain dated Marxist BS.
I see. Bare shelves Biden, eh? Well skeleton-bodied starving people in Africa and South Asia is the result when you don't entertain what you call Marxist BS.
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@Athias
Force is necessary to enforce the will of the populace (in democracy) or leadership (in autocracy) upon those that wish to circumvent the rules of the system.In other words, my ideals grant me carte-blanche to conscript your time, labor, and property into my service while I place you under duress.
Yes, that is what the rich do to the poor (apart fromt he honest and generous ones) and would do more mercilessly if it wasn't for minimum wage, welfare, food banks and a few other things like public education.
Fraud is committed by the rich to tax-evade severely, regularly and at large.There's nothing fraudulent about avoiding theft, robbery, and/or burglary.
Please stop using other words that you feel are what 'tax' is and use the word 'tax' in that sentence, so that we understand what you are referring to.
The poor-welfare fraud is mainly being used out of desperation to cope better.How do you know this?
I'd say 'common sense' but it does appear only the left-wing and centrists seem to have that on this matter. To make this simpler for you, I'd like you to imagine magnitude rather than frequency.
How much starvation, lack of hygiene, lack of happiness and lack of (therefore) productivity would you imagine will come to the poor if the rich were not providing for them in almost any way.
I can give you a clue, visit Bangladesh or Uganda.
So, which fraud disgusts you more?The second one, hands down.
This really is a case of 'I wasn't asking you'.
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@TheMorningsStar
I am still curious where you got the idea that the right was opposed to food banks though.
Because the right-wing press that pushes the narrative that the poor are lazy, ungrateful welfare-grabbers is very easy to twist into an anti-foodbank narrative saying they are just enabling a parasitic lifestyle of the poor.
I have and do volunteer places and while Ilikepie says he's volunteered I can tell you that 4/5 workers in volunteering are heavily left-wing.
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@TheMorningsStar
Because that way the people prospering from/within the society are maintaining the poorest within it (who are working hard everyday for those rich people's corporate profit) are healthy and happy enough to keep working and living optimally.
The alternative is that the greediest leeches benefit from the society while the middle class end up having the lift the weight in the charities.
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@ILikePie5
No, it isn't even close to being equal let alone better. They are a minority in votes.
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@ILikePie5
@TheMorningsStar
@ADreamOfLiberty
Okay, let me ask this differently since it seems the Right Wing members here do not oppose food banks.
In your ideal society, would welfare, taken from the most wealthy regardless of their greed and given the most desperate, be how the poor can eat and afford sanitary products or would food bank charities (taken from the most empathetic, regardless of wealth) be the way?
The left wing would prefer the former.
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