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@coal
Your point four isn't unviersally true by the way. You make rules to stop future abuse, not necessarily solely to notice past abuse. Obviously if something bad is happening that needs to be stopped, this is a typical inspiration of rules but it isn't the only reason toake them.
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Along the lines of Coal's suggestion, many atheist and antitheist debaters (as well as some of their opponents) have produced some of the world's best 1v1 debates.
Richard Dawkins is my absolute favourite but his best debate speeches have been solo stuff where he was basically persuading the audience or interviewer rather than 1v1 debating.
Christopher Hitchens was not the 'best' debater in raw logic, his strength was rhetoric and he picked strong Theist opponents to hash it out with, he never picked a simple weakling opponent to steamroll a debate with. Search Hitchens debates for many fantastic listens.
When it comes to true 1v1 debating, the UK has produced some of the world's best. Hitchens became an American citizen towards the end of his life, however. He wouldn't want me to say RIP as he firmly abhors/abhorred the concept of a soul.
Another fantastic UK debater is Stephen Fry.
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@whiteflame
Know what we did? We talked about the topic ahead of time. We discussed strategies that we expected our opponents to use, and then designed counter strategies.
Okay, that's not live or during the debate. Try again.
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@whiteflame
What's the barrier to a college assignment you receiving tips and help specifically and far beyond what's acceptable level of assistance by someone else via PM? Nothing much, they can't even really get a legal warrant to search your device even if they suspect it.
Nonetheless, it's a rule right? Do you see how limitations of enforcement aren't justification for letting someone get credit for someone else's skills?
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@whiteflame
I've had a single source change my mind on how to approach a topic before and give me a novel structure to work from. Why isn't that source off-limits to me in the same sense?
That's your own research and brainpower at work. That's why.
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@whiteflame
I didn't say I get to decide, I said the mod team and anyone who wants to chip in can decide as long as the general idea is that helping debaters during a debate is wrong. I made this thread because David suggested to, it's up to him to convince you.
I have no clue why anyone on this thread is supporting the opposite but I do know how groupthink works so the later opposers are probably just bandwagoning and maintaining status quo.
Your reasons for being against it are nothing more than nitpicking solely directed at something I said about it being based on how significant the help was. Can you offer a better measurement to scale the repercussion?
I don't understand a single thing you are raising as a point here, not even one. It's so crystal clear to me how wrong and fallacious what you are saying is that I don't want to rehash the rebuttals I just gave you once again. You can think whatever you want, people on this website can do what they want. It may take years or may never happen but eventually there will come a time if this isn't a rule, that someone keeps helping another debater with live, interactive tips and then you will realise the issue.
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^ I meant to post this in the voting request thread, sorry for the mixup.
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@whiteflame
But that's not really addressing my point, which is that the point at which assistance is provided matters, and not to whom it is provided. I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say "the enemy", but if you're informing both debaters, then the assistance you're providing should be even less concerning, since everyone is equally affected.
Not at all for you to decide and 'equally affected' is extremely presumptive even if both debaters agree it was.
Not all scenarios where you assist both sides equally affects both sides whatsoever. Not even slightly. It would be an extreme miracle scenario where that was, in fact, the case.
The enemy of each debater is the other debater.
If you're concerned that the debaters aren't going to come up with their own ideas, I'd also say that that's problematic on a couple of fronts. First, debaters get ideas that come from the brains of other debaters in a dozen other ways, including PMs (if you make public comments about this off-limits, that's where these would go), forums, looking at previous debates, discussions IRL, etc.
Not necessarily, at the moment we have situations occuring where a poster who wouldn't PM to assist the other in an illicit manner is doing so. If people begin to gang together in PM groups of assistance, this will at first be something they get away with, of course, however it just takes one to snitch and things will begin to fall apart. Limitations of enforcement are never a good excuse to let something bad keep happening twice as much as it otherwise would (I predict this is more than twice actually, you're bringing up fringe cases which aren't the focus here).
The looking at previous debates is 100% allowed as is discussions IRL, the ability to use them within the limited time given per argument using only one's own brain and typing skills is what the rating of each debater should reflect in the end. It should not reflect the propensity to be helped by others, especially not during the debate.
Second, I don't see the problem. If debaters were copy-pasting ideas from other debaters, that would be one thing, but there's recourse to punish that in voting.
Actually there isn't much. Sure direct copy and pasting without giving any credit is, however it will inspire them to think of things in ways they wouldn't necessarily have done so and that is a huge element of skill (or lack thereof) that is removed from being fairly assessed. I have not even the slightest clue where you are coming from here. You wrote on your profile you teach middle-school debating, there is no way on Earth that you would allow other students to live-assist a debater during a debate, period. You know why it's wrong and how severely you'd punish it already, you're lying here for reasons I do not understand. Stop the bullshit act, it isn't helping anyone.
The rest of your reply is the same stuff worded differently. Chess isn't very different from debating at all.
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@secularmerlin
This thread spoke about a syllogism and asked if it was irrefutable, it didn't say we are generally discussing free will.
Free will comes down to whether teality is scripted fate or random at its core, in my opinion. See, even if reality itself is semi deterministic, if it's random at the core than will is free because god itself is incapable of full control then.
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@secularmerlin
Can you expand each premise and the conclusion?
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@whiteflame
Every Chess website that I know of rules out using a computer engine and getting live coaching from another user during a match with advice and move-suggestions specific to the game being played, since the elo rating is meant to represent the individual's skill alone.
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@oromagi
Are there some examples of debates wherein the outcome was reversed by coaching or live tips?
Aside from the evidence that one significantly recently has potentially been altered, rules are not in place to stop what has happened (they can be inspired by it), they are instead in place to prevent what can go wrong in the future if one acted in a way that would negatively impact the community and fair competition elements of this website.
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@whiteflame
Additionally, the opponent of each may have structured things specifically to exploit that debater's style and flaws, failing to do so directly due to your assistance of the opponent which opened their eyes to something.
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@whiteflame
Because you have no idea which of those ideas would have come to the brain of the debaters nor if your wording of it would help them word it better (or ironically worse) than they originally would.
The help you offer each side assists the enemy too, to structure and prepare for rebuttals.
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@Bones
Premise 1 Every human choice or action is driven by past events.Premise 2 We do not control past events.Conclusion 1 Human free will does not exist.From my perspective, the syllogism seems simple to the point where it is irrefutable. What do we think?
There are some issues with how you drew the conclusion as well as semantics of the word 'we'.
So, premise 1, even if proven to be true, doesn't exclude other factors in the choice-making process. It states that past events are part of it.
Premise 2 doesn't make clear who 'we' are because if one individual was or wasn't in control of certain past events it doesn't necessariy equate to 'we' being or not being in control as a whole group. Equally, even if 'we' the collective were in control in a hive-mind type thing, free will for the individual surely would be significantly limited.
The conclusion implies you had a premise specifying that free will is or isn't contingent on something (such as control of past events, which is probably what was implied) however the direct way you linked premise 1 and premise 2 to the conclusion isn't irrefutable at all, it's inconherent based on written words in your syllogism. You maybe needed a first conclusion to that syllogism to use as a premise in a future one, then you may evolve it to draw the conclusion you had there (with another premise on the new one).
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@David
Why do you do things like make this comment:
This issue is certainly something I’d consider MEEPing
Then stay completely silent when someone else offers it?
You have a habit of doing this a lot, have you ever had to take the flack for an idea you support or do you just flip-flop on everything?
I am curious where you stand on this, since even that comment was supporting the other side before you said that. Please make it clear so we understand, I predict you'll just mimic the popular stance though.
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@thett3
Evolution for social species always leads to politics if that species isn't a prey species or one that goes extinct.
Alphas lead, betas follow and others such as sigmas, deltas and omegas find their place.
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@whiteflame
What you wrote is essentially total agreement with me except for if someone offers coaching to both sides at once.
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@coal
That's great that you agree... Ironic but great. So let's get to making it a rule.
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Your approach is popular in Asia (not just in Japan where it's considered offensive to tip). The approach in Asian countries is that tips are to be earned by super excellent service (except in Japan where it's considered offensive to tip as it insults someone's perceived wealth). In Asian countries a tip is taken as a serious compliment, not a standard service reward. However, Asian cultures and countries have brutal harshness on the poor, in general (again, except for Japan as well as more socialist ones like Vietnam and Sri Lanka). So, the approach is usually brutal on the poor.
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@coal
How is it any more fucked up than saying you only want males and their cocks as opposed to vagina?
Yes, when I say 'you' I am asking you. You probably have a type, we all do, that goes beyond just the biological sex of the person you're fucking as well (I say sex, not gender, intentionally here, as I am alluding to sexism if you are alluding to racism). You may even have kinks that are inappropriate but very pleasing to you in a roleplay or general fetish-friendly scenario.
There is absolutely nothing more discriminatory about refusing to date a race than there is to not date a certain sex.
What is true, however, is that in today's day and age admitting you have the former preference is more taboo because people get emotional. The proof it isn't equivocal to racism is the fact that all races, black-Africans, black-Caribbeans brown-asians, 'yellow' Asians, Arabs, all variants of Latino, so on and so forth, do this.
I have never come across a race or ethnicity that has a majority of its members whom actively seek to date outside the race, I have seen the opposite plenty of times. Individuals may begin more and more (in melting pot nations) to interracially mate and form loving relationships, absolutely but how do you know some interracial couples aren't racist towards other races?
As I said to theweakeredge:
To many who propose this forum thread's topic, there is a notion that dating someone proves you 'approve'. I am sure you blatantly can see that sexist men can date women and male-loathing women at times can date men (but often can be abusive during the relationship and it tends to stem from some kind of trauma if it's not pure anger issues or narcissism).With regards to racism, I have seen Wylted himself flexing "I have fucked black chicks" to justify his 'I can't be racist' stance. I am also certain there are people with fetishes for fucking a race they hate (it could also be done by blacks to whites, an 'envy and rage' hatefuck and short-term passionate dating type thing). This thread says dating, not lifelong marriage, so you can't say this is an uncalled for Kritik and line of questioning.I do not see the direct correlation between dating a specific race and 'proving' you don't have underlying racism. You could date a black male/female/genderfluid as a non-black and be racist in other ways to that exact race. It doesn't necessarily need to be to that person, you could genuinely 'love' the person and certainly lust them but by no means does this correlate with direct proof you are absent of racism in and of itself unless you long-term live with them, produce offspring with them and show well past the 'dating' stage that you enjoy that race. Even then, a minority can still be racist elsewhere in their life and attitudes.Equally, I do not see the negative correlation between (the absence of) dating a particular race and being racist. Sure, the 'trend' will exist as at least a 60/40 type thing but I am certain there are many non-racists who in no shape or form have proven they aren't racist via their dating, especially if we include all races in the measurements.
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If Chauvin is found innocent, I will not accept the verdict at all.
I am too knowledgable about corruption and how it works to even flinch before protesting that. I'm not some edgy right-wing 'ooh liberty wee woo' rebel, I am a true rebel who knows what my enemy is; oppression and tyranny in all its shades and forms.
I will not tolerate if he is found innocent, it is crystal fucking clear what happened. If you murder someone who overdosed on drugs, your defence cannot be that they overdosed on drugs; if the judge and jury have decent brains and hearts, the verdict is clear. I am happy that I was not put on this jury and also don't envy them as Coal has said he doesn't. I would find it impossible to find this murderous racist innocent of what he did.
This being said, I am not someone who is stampeding to say firing all the other officers was a fair and just move to make. I also don't understand why all the other officers were held equally responsible for what went down, surely there should be a scaled system of punishment and offer to retrain some who clearly had the right idea but wrong actions. I do not support the idea for a single second that all the cops present were hellbent on a racist agenda to kill a black man that day, that's a huge leap of logic and involves severe confirmation bias. They were fired largely as a convenient PR scapegoat comment to make 'look at us, we fired them therefore we aren't responsible for the poor training'.
Chauvin, on the other hand, directly violated training protocol, has a history of being violent especially towards blacks when he was a bouncer and is by no means whatsoever innocent.
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I will unblock all the cast members I have blocked on day one for the game so no reads are revealed about teams.
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@Vader
Since this is a bastard setup yet many tryhards are playing it, I'd love to participate, the chaos is too juicy. Please.
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I know what you'll say, just a second think...
If this happened it wouldn't be once in a blue moon that forum games carried on for a long time. The reason they die out is Mafia threads drown them and people too easily see that other thread and can't resist to take a peek (not that I can relate, I find Mafia pseudointellectual banter at best).
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@oromagi
We may never know but most recently there's been two instances that demanded me to report, the most severe being this:
and also this in the same debate:
Those count as one instance.
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"'Race' and 'ethnicity' have been and continue to be used as ways to describe human diversity," said Nina Jablonski, an anthropologist and palaeobiologist at The Pennsylvania State University, who is known for her research into the evolution of human skin color. "Race is understood by most people as a mixture of physical, behavioral and cultural attributes. Ethnicity recognizes differences between people mostly on the basis of language and shared culture."In other words, race is often perceived as something that's inherent in our biology, and therefore inherited across generations. Ethnicity, on the other hand, is typically understood as something we acquire, or self-ascribe, based on factors like where we live or the culture we share with others.
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You were only looking for this endgame from the start anyway, whether you knew it consciously or not.
You are looking for a fight everywhere on this website, I'm actually being nice to you by blocking you and giving you a hint.
As for my post right there, the one you just replied to, I don't see an issue with it.
Eminem is/was ethnically closer to black people in his hometown than Caucasians in the nearest vicinity, this is because ethnicity isn't the genetic component in cultural/subcultural formation.
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@Theweakeredge
You have it totally wrong. Race is genetic, ethnicity isn't.
Race in humans is akin to pedigree breeds in dogs.
Ethnicity in humans is akin to pack culture dynamics and behaviours that certain breeds or mutts have developed a tendency for over time.
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King David of this fine establishment wants you all to know that there is no rule and he wants a MEEP.
An enforcable rule on using comments sections as well as general assistance and coaching of debaters during a debate both in general but especially in the Comments Section of that debate with live tips.
Should it be introduced?
I say yes and it should have punishment proportional to how extensive and precise the assistance was, not simply on how intentional it appears to be.
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@FourTrouble
The entirety of your post had a logical contradiction present in the first two sentences.
When you say:
Aesthetic preferences (especially with respect to race) are neither immutable nor part of our evolutionary design (i.e. they're entirely cultural).
Culturalism itself (the idea it even exists and we should preserve and participate in it) is itself evolutionary. Everything about attraction and genuine dating is involuntary and passion-driven AKA impulsive, not capable of being rewritten unless you spent time planning how to manipulate and brainwash people to be less or more attracted to a type you intended them to be (and with 'gay cure therapy' that churches and the like offer, this hasn't been proven to have much success unless we talk CIA level of brainwash that are using during interrogation).
I do not for a single second believe you when you say:
I'm not saying we have an ethical duty to engage in anti-racist dating practices.
In fact the very sentence that follows it makes crystal clear you do indeed say and want that.
I don't care much about this thread's topic, to be clear, the reason I posted was I found an interesting angle that doesn't allow the progressive agenda to be violated while also using it against itself, regarding homophobia, transphobia and other things.
It is not transphobic to actively and consciously avoid dating trans people if you truly don't enjoy them in that way any more than it is to do the same with a particular gender if you're homosexual or heterosexual. It is also not racist if you have preferred race(s) and ones you have bad experience with or just don't like. What is racist is when you start preaching about it and trying to spread it as a commonplace no-go-dating-zone for others of your race.
There's many people of ALL races, including black Africans and Carribeans that are very ethnocentric with who they date and want their children and siblings dating. Is it ethnocentric? Yes. Is it a problem to fix when it's widespread? Yes. However, when we use the term 'racist' it very clearly has more attached, it implies more specifically to if the majority race that's wealthier refuses to integrate and accept the (not necessarily first-generation) immigrant, minority people as viable to date. If this becomes widespread and the animosity doesn't ease up, that is when there is indeed racism involved with the dating choices.
Racism is systemic and individuals perpetuate it when it's spreading and truly excluding. I'm talking about giving funny looks at a table when a mixed race couple sit down, scowling at them. This was the norm as recently as the 80s and 90s even.
I loathe racism, real racism, with every bone in my body. You don't understand where I am coming from if you think I think it's 'okay' when it's actually done. It's about how severe the impact is and how 'spread' the opinion is becoming. If this individual isn't 'infecting' many with their dating preference and accepts it's their own preference, that is absolutely fine. We need to accept that everyone is entitled to have a type, if acting onthat 'type' harms people, or animals in some outlandish cases, then we need to step in and stop that preference from being acted on. If noone is being harmed overall by the impact, we need to stop wieldingthis word 'racist'. I have seen articles about making it taboo to admit you won't date other races (ironically they called it 'the final taboo in dating' meaning they see it as taboo to call people out on it and want that to change).
I know what racism is, I am not saying I totally understand and have been victimised by every form of systemic racism, of course not. However, I know what it is due to both actively researching as well as knowing actual people who have been victims of it. I know refugees from the civil war in Sri Lanka, that involved extreme racism against the Tamils from what looks like the same race to many outsiders, the Sinhalese. This systemic racism inspired deep rage and pessimism with the nation's direction that led to movements that ended up being terrorists, such as the Tamil Tigers, and I am not here to say that's okay but you need to understand what led to it and how many up-and-coming militias of Tamils there were at the start of the civil war.
If you are curious about that particular thing, this is a brilliantly to-the-point article/piece on the matter:
Systemic racism isn't something simple as one individual having a certain preference in dating, it's about if you truly stop them having upward mobility and equal rights. That's where the line has to be drawn, what's the impact and how does it affect their ability to be as free and accepted of a citizen of that nation or county (not country, county) as others. If it's not impacting on that level, we need to start dropping the term 'racism'.
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@MisterChris
The second thing you said, about Mac running on iOS, is why I was hesitant to join him on what he was 'celebrating'. I was like... Why bring up Mac? Ask it for PC and Linux.
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@ebuc
Not entirely sure what you mean, you mean you bought the OS for virtual box?
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@MisterChris
Not on par, superior.
The value isn't even close, not even slightly. The iPhone is on par with Android that cost 73% its price, on average.
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@MisterChris
No, I just don't want to be lazy when I debate on this website.
I put effort in, since you did. If you want me to post uncaring and lazily I can do that too.
The very thing you said is the 'appeal' of Apple is the complete opposite and it shocked me and stirred me to put effort in.
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@MisterChris
And no it's not a monopoly for Apple to only put Apple software in Apple phones... it's smart business.
The only reason it isn't a monopoly in a legal sense is because Android existed as competition. It's absolutely a monopoly if you analyse the hardware component being one provider only if you wish to use the OS software.
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@MisterChris
Lol? I don't think it's really good at all. I got family who use it and have compared to a good Android system (not even god tier, just good) which is what I use (I invest mainly into my PC not smartphone). What my phone can do is everything the best iPhone can do. This isn't just me, everyone I know of who has a good Android system thinks and feels the same way.
I have never seen someone go to Android (after knowing what iPhone has to offer either by knowing someone or owning it themselves) and go back to iPhone unless their work gives employees iPhones as part of its package and even then they tend to have a personal one on the side. I have seen people who try out iPhone regret it. This js farore common to be admitted by people who bought it for their mother or child or whatever. They see how bad it is compared to Android but their less technologically concerned relative or close friend doesn't always mind.
Everything in Apple is built for idiots, especially the way the menus and options are laid out. Siri's answer vs Google's Assistant's answers are always less directly helpful and much more assumptive of the context you're asking if it's a complex task, which isn't good. That's just for Google phones both (Pixel and HTC) as well as Samsung Galaxy though, as for other phones and their AI (usually Amazon's Alexa for other Androids) it's still superior to Siri.
I have seen absolutely nothing, at all, on iPhone that is superior to good, let alone high-end Androids. A slightly above average Android does everything the most expensive iPhone does equally well, pretty much. I don't get the appeal whatsoever and iPhone vs the same priced high-end Android is a whitewash in favour of the Android device in every single measurable department.
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@ILikePie5
Apple OS is way better than Android OS without a doubt. Apple revolves around quality of their product earning profit even though the market is dominated by Android
How? Name one way. I will name plenty of the opposite but I'm curious how you can just baselessly say this.
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@MisterChris
Let me repeat:
In fact, earlier on iPhone and iPad apps costed TWICE AS MUCH or at least 1.5x as much as the same Android App.
same.
They also blackmail(ed) you to use their hardware for their software so there is total monopoly and lack of competition regarding hardware excellence, whereas Android has much of that to force each hardware provider to give decent value for money if they don't want to be grinded into the ground by their competition.
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@Theweakeredge
Now that I have fully exposed the fact that you have nothing more than rhetoric and appeal to emotive TYPE IN ALL CAPS TO MAKE A POINT SEEM IMPORTANT strategy, I will push harder in the other direction.
What precisely is it that defines a racist? To me, it's if they perpetuate systemic racism through their individual actions. Actions do include words if they're in a position to influence people in a significant way with those words.
To many who propose this forum thread's topic, there is a notion that dating someone proves you 'approve'. I am sure you blatantly can see that sexist men can date women and male-loathing women at times can date men (but often can be abusive during the relationship and it tends to stem from some kind of trauma if it's not pure anger issues or narcissism).
With regards to racism, I have seen Wylted himself flexing "I have fucked black chicks" to justify his 'I can't be racist' stance. I am also certain there are people with fetishes for fucking a race they hate (it could also be done by blacks to whites, an 'envy and rage' hatefuck and short-term passionate dating type thing). This thread says dating, not lifelong marriage, so you can't say this is an uncalled for Kritik and line of questioning.
I do not see the direct correlation between dating a specific race and 'proving' you don't have underlying racism. You could date a black male/female/genderfluid as a non-black and be racist in other ways to that exact race. It doesn't necessarily need to be to that person, you could genuinely 'love' the person and certainly lust them but by no means does this correlate with direct proof you are absent of racism in and of itself unless you long-term live with them, produce offspring with them and show well past the 'dating' stage that you enjoy that race. Even then, a minority can still be racist elsewhere in their life and attitudes.
Equally, I do not see the negative correlation between (the absence of) dating a particular race and being racist. Sure, the 'trend' will exist as at least a 60/40 type thing but I am certain there are many non-racists who in no shape or form have proven they aren't racist via their dating, especially if we include all races in the measurements.
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@Theweakeredge
I am curious of something, can you find me a person who has dated someone from every race to prove they aren't racist at all?
I am curious how they prove it unless they do this, in the identical way that I would think a gay man who refuses to date women can be framed as a sexist, a white man who never dates black women can be framed as a racist, it's identical to me indeed.
I do not see the difference. What I see is that it's more taboo to admit it.
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@MisterChris
iPhone used to be the clear victor in terms of hardware and value
Never. Maybe hardware at the very start but value? Never ever.
In fact, earlier on iPhone and iPad apps costed TWICE AS MUCH or at least 1.5x as much as the same Android App.
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@Theweakeredge
Now you're just flat out lying about scientific facts. Firstly I said Chinese vs Blacks for that to be most significant of a difference, secondly the facial build and other factors like eye colour, ass size, hair style and many more things factor in.
You are continually hostile to me in 100% of the interactions you've had in the past couple of weeks. I have patiently replied to you only to get more rage, if I putore effort into my response. It's futile to interact with you and you are blocked.
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@Theweakeredge
Height and general muscle tone and build are also factors and black people are much 'more' in this department than, for instance, Koreans and Chinese. Some prefer the latter as they want petite.
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@Theweakeredge
There have been plenty.
Skin tone is only one aspect of race. The difference between a chinese person's eyes and nose vs a caucasians vs a black person's vs an Indians vs a Latinos vs jew/hebrews so on and so forth, Arabs and Kurds too, it's all varied. Base hairstyle of each race, general temperament of those of that eace within the vicinity of one's local area (so culture and ethnicity too, not just race, religion included) are all factors that limit people's taste palette ind dating
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@FourTrouble
Interracial dating is one of the strongest anti-racist actions available to us.
Is this not (according to you) racist to one's own race if one exclusively aims for this and engages in this?
I ask based on your definition of racism in dating.
Of course I know it's not racist, I am asking to understand what precisely your case is.
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@Theweakeredge
being HOMOSEXUAL is not the same thing as being attracted to WHITE GUYS
Of course, however it is the same level of subjective and involuntary urge.
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@Theweakeredge
When you say 'equate' do you mean literally? That's obviously true.
There are many things people have tastes, fetishes and kinks regarding, race can indeed be one of them.
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