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@PressF4Respect
you agree with me on the card-outing, so please speak up or it's not going to happen.
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@Vader
Why are you against the card-outing scenario even though you agreed with me that it's a brilliant way to ensure tomorrow is a 1v1 scenario in some shape or form?
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on top of that, if town is tracked visiting the dead, it's the easiest mislynch ever for scum to hide behind.
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@ILikePie5
There is no absolute certainty with revealing our cards. Randomness has been our friend the past two DPs. No oneone knew cards and we got rid of two scum. Knowing cards only helps scum because they can manipulate the game. That’s literally their mechanic this game. They cheat.
The first 2 sentences completely ignore what I asked you to do. The following is a lie:
Knowing cards only helps scum because they can manipulate the game.
It helps town manipulate the game too, severely so. It would mean we had a very skilled plan tonight where tomorrow is almost certainly going to narrow down scum becaue we will have clears vs counterclaims in almost no time whatsoever. Instead, you want to allow scum to easily be wrongly cleared if they lack the NK tonight as they'll be tracked visiting or whatever (I assume almost all scum roles involve visiting but I can definitely be wrong there) and since who they visit doesn't die and since they never had to reveal their cards the day before, they retrospectively come up with a hand to claim that lets them be townread and fits their visit perfectly.
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@ILikePie5
Likewise. I know I’m going to die today cause I’m the last thorn in your side until complete manipulation of town. Who else here is going to fight you?
You went from townreading me to scumreading me simply over me standing my ground on something that would be so easy for me to give up on presenting or antagonising you with if I were scum. You were completely on my side all game long, why would I need to irritate you or argue with you if I were scum? I'd never do that but you don't know that as you think I am simply gambit-hungry and dumb.
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@Bullish
we can change whether we folded or bet during the day even if you confirmed the original decision, yes?
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@ILikePie5
as well as having 2/3 less information about others' cards.
this applies also to how wise vs unwise folding or betting is.
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@ILikePie5
At this point, I think you are scum but I am speaking to you in the hopes that even if you are scum you will change your mind (or that if you are not and simply are being stubborn that you consider my points).
I would like to present this differently to you than you are currently perceiving it.
You are currently weighing absolute certainty against risk but I want you to weigh cost vs benefit. Explain to me how the benefits of card-hiding outweigh the cost of town being in complete darkness to each other as well as having 2/3 less information about others' cards.
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@Crocodile
In actual fact a Yakuza role could explain Oromagi dying without you being town. He dies to convert someone else. Just saying, it's possible. If this is the case, however, then yes there were originally only 3 otherwise it would be unfair on town.
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Oromagi implied there are 3 mafia, not four. This only increases the chance that there very well could be four and he was making us let our guard down.
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If we don't out our hands, someone towny will simply die tonight if mafia has the NK. We will gain next to no info from it as it's extremely likely that two people will waste their tracking ability on the same scummy target and if they don't happen to catch them or wrongly catch them visitng the one who happened to die to watch them, then we are back at square one. Additionally, since we arranged no sequence of role interactions, no one can confirm someone else doing something so in a 2-scum scenario we are entirely susceptible to scum confirming each other at our demise.
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@Crocodile
You quoted me quoting Supadudz. That is a silly point to make. My method will guarantee that we catch them doing it or vindicate others of having done it by them visiting someone else or whatever.
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@Vader
btw the reason I think it's you vs pie is obviously that croc has the inno on press. Otherwise press would be in my line of suspicion. Press has also towntold today by supporting me with this card-outing situation. You are basically the swing vote since crocodile is irrationally against it as is Pie.
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@Vader
Rather than going for the worst case scenario, appreciate that most town-roles are visiting anyway so a ninja power will backfire on them since they'll be seen visiting no one at all and unless they got the hand worthy of BP or double-vote, we will surely question that.
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@Vader
exactly, there is so much we can arrange to force it to become 1v1 scenarios by the next day if we all out cards.
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@Bullish
Public mechanic check: Watching counts as a visit, yes?
In some versions of mafia it does not.
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I talso helps that we will know who got lucky on the last 2 cards before we act at night. Even if they lie about it, the lie will force it to become a 1v1 the next day between the one who lied and the one we assume did the nightkill (who will be tracked and cleared most likely unless they unluckily visited the one who died)
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@Vader
If Mafia has a killing role for a high pair, they can take out someone with a vital role
We 100% arrange it so that the one claiming highest hand is tracked.
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@Vader
Okay, I agree Pie is scummy after fighting against a completely town-beneficial arrangement but his suspicion of you isn't really the scummiest thing he's done. I also suspect you because Croc and Bearman are now both very towny for different reasons and therefore, in my eyes, it is you or Pie.
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I townread Bearman not just for not realising that Crocodile NK'd Oromagi (the ignorance implies he's town and not 'in the loop' on any chat outside of the game thread) but for voting for the revealing of cards.
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@Vader
You must vote on whether or not all of us reveal our cards. Currently the vote is 2-2.
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@Crocodile
There's benefits to both, but I think not revealing our cards is better.
Why?
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@Vader
@PressF4Respect
@Crocodile
@BearMan
Vote please. Reveal cards or not?
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@ILikePie5
I don't even begi to grasp the case you're makingm mafia does have a life line if town stays disorganised with ngiht actions and unwise overly caitious folds and overly brave bets that result from lacking the information of others' cards
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@ILikePie5
You’re assuming a lot of things. Giving Mafia a blank check is anti-town. We can’t make a fool proof plan period. If we can’t there’s no use to revealing our cards.
You clearly eother know nothing about poker and gambling or are lying. Gambling optimally involves constantly increasing the information with which we make non-fool-proof plans. That doesn't mean it's dumb to increase the information.
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@ILikePie5
So you don’t trust townies to execute their roles and cards properly? That’s surprising. If people need help they can ask Bullish.
What stops three people who hit pairs tracking the same person? Do you see how that lack of coordination only benefits mafia? Also how can they bet or fold as wisely lacking the 10 cards of extra information sitting on others' hands?
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@ILikePie5
Or you let mafia know who you’re tracking tonight and they do something to hinder it anyways. Which one sounds better anyways? Information that likely isn’t manipulated by scum or info that is?
Info that is. We can then assess who would manipulate it and why. Unless you're suggesting they cant make people visit each other, your point is rather moot.
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@Crocodile
The vtnl is hardly the biggest issue. The lack of revealing cards and arranging our night actions is the biggest issue.
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@ILikePie5
Fold if you don’t know what to do. It’s simple. You don’t need to put your nose in everyone else’s cards.
Yes I do, I am trying to help townake the best bets and folds they can. At the moment everyone only knows five cards and can't coordinate who to investigate or anything.
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@Crocodile
It's not that we are scrwed, it's that we completely throw our advantage.
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@Crocodile
No we aren't screwed unless they also got double vote and get NK the next night.
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@ILikePie5
People may even track the same target due to our lack of organisation.
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@ILikePie5
We gain a lot of information based on roles tonight.
No, we get barely anything if we don't share carda, we may even get false reports from cops based on people betting when they would habe folded had they known others' cards reduce their chance to hit a pair.
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@ILikePie5
They know what they have to do and can easily circumvent any plan we make especially considering we don’t know the turn or the river. Also consider that mafia can cheat to benefit themselves. Revealing our cards is grounds for disaster. We have mafia on the run. Why give them a lifeline by revealing the only things that matter in this game?
No it isn't at all like you say. Mafoa don't have nightkill at all by default in these situations so you can't even begin to compare it. Additionally, we're fucking ourselves overore than them. You're right we don't knwk the thrn and river, we could better guess what it will vs won't be if we know more hands that aren't left to be dealt
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@ILikePie5
You are intentionally deceiving town, rishing to a night where qe lack sufficient information of cards during the day and making us waste our ability to better asses card odds from sharing cards.
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@Crocodile
If there's two and if they get lucky again, only one or two given that they can force vtnl or even a lynch woth their double vote and nightkill if town is disorganised . Otherwise three is more realistic if we play passove, cowardly and gain zero worthwile information as we refuse to out our cards. All that happens is I die tonight most likely.
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That’s not covering our tracks by any means. Anyone who doesn’t have a hand should be folding period.
If you have 35 and are tow reas by others and noone else.has 3 or 5 I support you betting. You even can catch 34567 of I'm wrong about recycling, on the river. I don't actually think it's impossible even if I'm right but we'll discuss more once cards are revealed.
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@ILikePie5
That’s not covering our tracks by any means. Anyone who doesn’t have a hand should be folding period.
No they shouldn't. For example.why would QK, JQ or 78 and 910 fold.here if noone else has tbe card to stop.their steaight and pair(s) hitting?
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@BearMan
I believe they can, I think it's a hitman mechanic equivalent to the town vig power. I do think that Croc may have bussed Oromaginat Oromagi's own request even, since Oromagiw as so scummy that Croc would not have been able to explain the NK onwon someone whowwho wasn't Oromagi once pressure came to proving hands etc.
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@ILikePie5
Whoever supports card claiming needs to explain how they are going to account for the turn and the river card which would screw up any plan we get
That's why we share. Let's say you have a good hand but one or two ogher players have cards that imply you won't hot your hand. You then fold it of there's a cop candidate likely (probably don't fold ot, thsy just cop outsode you gove this flop allows two viable straights with an unlikely third possible, there's little reason to fold).
We also can let a terrobld hand bet if noone has any cards countering a pair hot for it, just because it will be worth the risk , especially if that's townread by the cop player so wouldn't be investigated anyway. We keep targets of trackers and watchers secret to a degree, it's important we force some to confirm others.
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@ILikePie5
Do you realise that mafia firstly need a good hand tk even have a power? Secondly most of town's power, if theg have any will beosused and a waste if we leave things in the dark.
Secondly, ot helps js bet or not bet with more certainty of card odds. You sau 'cheat' but what we are doing is cheating and collision in loker, becauae even two people sharing cards gives each player aassive overall edge over many hands. We would be having 4-5 player collusion vs 1-2 players.
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@BearMan
Croc nightkilled Oromagi and innod anoyher player. Why would mafia do this?
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