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@Speedrace
No, I am saying don't waste hitting four of a kind and having the power of surviving a normal lynch amount by claiming that role and getting 0 information from people's reactions to it. The only way to not do that is to fake/lie about what you are and bluff that you actually got less lucky than you did and gauge reactions (including if someone speed-hammers you or not).
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@Speedrace
You're saying that the hand to get a vig kill on the mafia's list is probably easier than on our own list. And what you're not saying is that the probability of Mafia getting the NK is more likely than town getting itIs that a good summary of what you're saying?
I forgot to put it in a quote format
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@Speedrace
You're saying that the hand to get a vig kill on the mafia's list is probably easier than on our own list. And what you're not saying is that the probability of Mafia getting the NK is more likely than town getting it
Is that a good summary of what you're saying?
I am saying both at the same time. You see, Mafia probably have nothing to lose in their betting, meaning if they only hit 'high card' I think the consequence is basically just that they are the mafia version of vanilla AKA goon.
This is how I predict that it is evened out the disadvantage they have of town having multiple PRs per night if Town merely hits pairs.
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@PressF4Respect
It’s very improbable that scum has their own NK. Considering there are 8 players in this game,
This is so fake of you to say. Scum has to eliminate ALL town to win, not be 50/50 the game is completely fair if they have a NK and NK is always a quintessential Maf feature.
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@ILikePie5
I don't think you know what luck/probability in cards is. It's not the same unlikeliness to hit a more probable hand.
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@Speedrace
but that doesn't affect the fact that scum has a smaller chance of getting the NK that's up for grabs
it does, the hand required to get it is probably easier to achieve (more probable).
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@Speedrace
Lol, you saying this will ENSURE that scum DOESN'T quick hammer, they'll let a noob do it and that noob will get lynched.
Besides all that, how is a popular townie supposed to get themselves lynched?
It only requires 1 more. At the point where they are hammered, if they are active and if they are getting lynched for the false report or whatever else then they can read a lot into things. For example, Mafia will struggle immensely (or would but you forced me to out this) with the situation and make themselves goddamn obvious by not believing in the cop's guilty from the get-go. They will hesitate to pick a side or contribute at all, simply happy that the cop guilties a miller and if the guilty townie happens to out as not miller they will rub their hands together and leap onto the cop at once. This readiness, combined with me giving precedent for the claim here, lets them then go 'I am popular, you can test me if you want, I just didn't want to waste my luck by claiming popular and getting 0 reads out of that'.
by the way I just realised now, that a 'framer' is a likely superpower for mafia getting very lucky.
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@Speedrace
The OP never ever says that the NK for the highest hand is solely the only NK mechanism.
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@ILikePie5
You don't get it. We have no idea what their roles are, they probably get NK for two pair only, for instance and the superpowers for more luck are likely to be defensive in some way (such as appearing innocent on reports vs what miller can do).
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@Speedrace
No it isn't. Someone going for a quick hammer in a game where mafia is this terrified of being NK'd let alone lynched is more likley to be scum (and it doesn't matter if the hammer is towntelling, you can read into the others who sheeped it).
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@BearMan
its just that the NK is required
we have no idea what the mafia's roles per hand are. They likely have more powers than us for less luck to even out the unfairness on them in the game with how overpowered the town can be.
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Ilikepie just townslipped. He revealed that he thought mafia are gambling on the same role distribution as we have.
I townread him now.
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@ILikePie5
Town players have more cards in play. It’s more likely that we get the NK than scum do.
How do you know that? Their roles are secret, they probably need far less luck to get the NK ability:
Mafia roles are different and only known to the mafia.
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@Speedrace
What?? Town who gets loved should IMMEDIATELY say that because we can test it and then confirm that they indeed did get loved, which then confirms them as town. Suggesting that town lies to town is inherently scummy
No. Town who is popular can at any time at all out that and get it confirmed at any moment. It is fundamentally stupid to test it on lylo/mylo as you are basically handing the game to the mafia unless they get unlucky with the night role interactions after the mylo.
Even if testing it is safe and it's an early day in the game, it's still stupid to out that you're popular rathre than bait scum into hammering you and going 'gotcha' while instead you outed as cop and revealed SO MUCH from both the reaction the one you guiltied and others.
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Town, if you get the full house, claim that you got three of a kind and you copped someone who died that night. Alternatively pretend you have a guilty on someone (I don't care what you say about this strategy). Do not reveal you are popular until you have to. It is very important to both bait mafia into revealing themselves with who fast-hammers you if it's a Mylo/Lylo situation and furthermore important to use your luck in card for reaction testing.
If it's not easy for you to fake the second card of three-of-a-kind, feel free to fake a watcher report or anything. I am saying this now to set it as a norm and expected town behaviour, so that you are not scumread for correctly applying pressure and saying 'just kidding it was a reaction test' after. This is optimal and makes the mafia squirm more and slip more by what they retort you with.
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It is possible that vig happens given the flop, however it is not probable even now.
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@BearMan
what a ridiculous suggestion. A kill by town at night requires an extremely rare hand that's very unlikely given the flop.
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Round 1
Coldplay - Viva La Vida
Originality - 15/20
While it seems generic, if you look at the stringed-themed melody and the way it has constant altering between singing and melody (rather than a lot of singing and then a period of just melody) it's not actually generic, especially not for the era of 2005-2010 songs. It was a massive hit but that wasn't because it was blending into the genre, it was because it was so soothing and intriguing at the same time. This song, despite not being a rap, has incredible flow in the lyricism. It is unrealistic to rank it above 15/20, it was clearly going for a 'dance along to the song and don't worry too much about the lyrics' vibe and that doesn't 'blow my mind' nor is it hugely original for the aim of a song. The part where the song goes 'ooo wa oooh oh' in the background towards the ending is a fantastic example of simple layering making such a subtle yet deeply felt vibe difference in a song as it progresses.
It was a great song.
Obscurity - 2/20
Everyone who is generally into music of that kind knows this song except for some strange hermits or people who are not at all into that genre or era of music. It's an extremely popular band and that song is one of their GOAT hits.
Aura/Vibe and how it makes me feel. 14/20
Nice for a bop, would have scored 16/20 in the dance round. It is not a god-tier phenomenal song it is just a very hard-to-hate song from so many angles making it difficult to deny that it's a great piece overall. I like the vibe but it isn't good for a 'blow my mind' kind of song nor do I feel passionate about it.
Quality of lyricism for the Genre 16/20
It was good, if you actually look up the lyrics there is wordplay and flow to it. Internal rhyming is extremely unusual for artists to care about at all in pop or soft rock. This was very good for the genre in the lyricism, the chorus itself is also not generic in its lyrics like most 'hits' are.
Sexiness/pleasure of the Voice and instruments to my eardrum AKA Delivery. 20/20
Absolutely nothing about it displeases my ears at all, not even the pace or voice or anything. There is literally not a single point in the song where I feel bored of it or dissatisfied by the sounds hitting my eardrums.
How relistenable it is 18/20
You will always enjoy this song again after a while of not having listened to it but can it get brutally stuck in your head against your will? Yes. Is the hypnotic effect of the song pleasurable? Yes but the fact it's so extremely so isn't entirely nice. This is the type of song you listen to again and again and then by the fifth replay you're like 'oh goodness, that's my dose of it for the next 3 months.'
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Round 1
Immortal Technique - Dance With The Devil
Originality - 17/20
The topic and way it was portrayed were extremely revolutionary for the genre (being severely anti-gangster especially) but the reason it's not a 20/20 song is that the production elements of the song are generic and the flow isn't something phenomenal at all. While it's extremely poetic and that alone got it that decent score, I feel that there's an issue about the topic and it clearly was IT going over the top reciting a fake story that was so extreme and grotesque almost 'for the sake of it' to get his song talked about it. It's not a child-friendly song yet it won't be too hard for sensitive people or minors to come across the song and that to me doesn't earn an 18+/20 ranking. It's extremely original but it played dirty to get there in a way.
Obscurity - 15/20
All rap fans who get seriously into 'conscious and/or lyrically intense rap' end up coming across this song at some point. It's a niche interest though and while it's one of the most well-known raps among that niche interest, the fact that it's only prominent at this point in time amongst a tiny group of fans out of all musically-inclined people scores it a solid enough 15/20.
Aura/Vibe and how it makes me feel. - 13/20
It is important to understand that this isn't the dark theme Round. I don't deny that the first time I heard the song it really made me genuinely feel shock and sick to my stomach. That feeling isn't pleasant though and this isn't just empathy for the victim, this is real deep rage towards the wrongdoers and the fact that someone made a song so sickening. For me, the fact that the song is fictional only increases the anger one feels post-listening to it as all that agony and empathy towards this character was for nothing. While the poetry is intense and the imagery extremely vivid for a rap, the feeling itself is so negative that it's like I passionately hate the song. The sound of it is girating (including his voice) and doesn't please my ears whatsoever, the lyricism is skilled in content and rhyme scheme consistency, it nonetheless significantly lacks flow.
Quality of lyricism for the Genre - 18/20
Look, it's good at this. I'm not denying that but a 19/20 or 20/20 lyrically developed song needs smoother flow and better metaphors. This was a storybook that happened to rhymes, you could call it the mature-version of Dr. Seuss. I also feel like the lack of internal rhyming meant even though the actual imagery and storyline were strong, it felt lazy in spite of it in a sense. The raw content and brutal imagery is not normal for the rap genre and that is significantly boosting both its originality and quality of lyricism content-wise.
Sexiness/pleasure of the Voice and instruments to my eardrum AKA Delivery. - 6/20
It's listenable but barely so. This is both his voice and the production quality. The melody itself is not super catchy even though it's repeated throughout.
How relistenable it is - 8/20
You almost definitely will listen to this song 2-3 more times after first hearing it. Just because of the pure shock that a song even would go that far content-wise and the fact that it's such an epic/iconic song amongst underground rap fans. That said, you are not likely to enjoy listening to it the second or third time around and the displeasure to the ear of the sound of his voice and the overly repetitive melody just undersell its reslistenability (I know that repetitive melody can make a song catchy but in this song it didn't). I also think because it's such a severley inappropriate song to show family and more sensitive friends, it reduces the chance you will even indirectly relisten to the song when it comes to your mind to introduce your friend to the genre or even to the artist. IT has far better songs than this if we talk about 'appeal'.
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@Crocodile
while it's possible, you showed absolutely 0 signficant more effort or improvement in the game before this one vs the one 2 games ago. You basically shrugged your shoulders when pressure was put on you Day 2 of that game and hardly tried to portray a very town vibe while claiming a significant character like Thanos.
In this game you are trying hard, very alert to each thing. It seems that some people in the mafia chat told you not to fuck around and you maybe only try hard when you feel you want to do your partners proud as their suffering at your incompetence is far more apparent to you.
It's true town is also a team but it's much easier to forget that when you don't talk to others about the game in a group chat of sorts.
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I will order these songs in the order that they best fit the category. It is possible that the higher scorer across the 6 categories wasn't the best fitter for the category but those ranked highest have score-boosts that I'll explain.
These songs were meant to 'blow my mind'.
Fit it the most: Warren42
Immortal Technique - Dance With The Devil
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WARNING, DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS SONG IF YOU ARE SENSITIVE TO DARK TOPICS OR UNDER THE AGE OF 16 (in my opinion)
It is a very extreme song and topic.
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SpeedRace
Seven Lions Ft. Fiora - Days to Come
Mild Epilepsy Warning: YouTube Music Video has some small moment of flashing images (not strobe light but somewhat similar effect)
Music Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNQqqztmLYU
Song without video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1hWi-vgoaU
DWTD was something I felt/knew that Supadudz or Warren42 would use in the Dark Theme round but Supadudz didn't enter this and Warren42 seemed to feel it would blow my mind (or lacked a song to 'blow my mind').
Before proceeding with scoring, let me show you a song I would have entered into this round towards RM:
Jedi Mind Tricks (Vinnie Paz + Stoupe) Ft. Shara Worden - "When All Light Dies"
Now, I will score them but Warren gets boosts because his song significantly 'blew my mind' more than the rest, though the musical aspects of the song be brought (as opposed to lyrical) did not entirely 'blow my mind' and Disc did compete in that regard. Speedrace's song was not my style at all but may have done well for the 'chill vibe' Round.
All these 3 songs clearly were put forth as genuine effort for the category, thus no points are docked for dodging the category and slanting a high scoring score by avoiding it.
I will do the scoring in the next Post.
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@warren42
@Discipulus_Didicit
@Speedrace
You three have entered. Now we must consider who the real champion is...
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I will be revealing the results bit by bit, Round by Round.
I will also be giving my own song choice for each Round (not the one that necessarily fits the category best but the one that I'd enter into the competition with RM as the host, aiming to score high).
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Strong Townreads
- RM - without a doubt a very active and helpful member for the town (as he always is).
- Bearman - explained.
- Speedrace - can explain if needed, basically just consistently good posts and high activity level
Weak Townreads
- SupaDudz (he always plays this way as town, I've seen it before but I admit ignorance to knowing the nuances that imply he's scum as I have not personally been in a game with his scumplay and so haven't truly 'perceived' it as it went along rather only in hindsight if I took the time to reread a game of his in detail where he's scum).
- Disc-Did - Just vibes from his effort and posts. Why would he be so aggro as mafia? Mafia are not bloodthirsty in this setup, they are defensive (like usually town is but this game has reversed who is the prey vs predator especially as Joker is there day 1 in the flop).
Null
I actually don't nullread anyone in this game because I both have gained more knowledge about each player from the 2 I just played and also this game seems to be forcing people to talk more and engage others for reads (rather than calmly rely on PRs or dominant personalities to lead like usual).
Weak Scumreads
- Warren42- https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4499/post-links/186090 This post, combined with his first 'humorous' one, show me that he is experiencing a level of frustration that he's masking as pseudo-joy towards the fact that town has been lucky as all hell to have a Joker in the flop on Day Phase 1. If I were scum, I'd be very stressed about that too as it means all the town can comfortably bet and get power roles that night phase.
- Oromagi - strangely unattentive to the details of the game structure or nitpicking about logic like he usually is. His laidback demeanour is nothing at all like his usual town demeanour but what is true is that this setup itself would frustrate and bore a player like Oromagi, who relies heavily on knowing the concrete structure and analysing it in order to then pivot his reads. He could be town, just leans scum.
- ILikePie5 - Demeanour totally different to usual, mafia is the defensive/prey team in this game unike usual so the friendliness goes hand in hand with that.
Strong Scumreads
Press and Croc, already explained why. The strength comes from how significant what I've read or spotted as a slip from them is, not from the 'amount' but Croc does actually have many things on top of a strong few things implying he's mafia. His temperament is so severely different to usual.
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Also when Crocodile was being lynched, he simply stayed stone-faced wgen he was town. Here he's actually fighting it and then saying 'lol' which contradicts itself as he's both displaying fear and yet laughing casually.
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@Crocodile
I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm not solely focused on him and I DID NOT townread bearman significantly in that game. You were the one who paired us.
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Bearman is town. The rest idk, maybe speedrace is town too but he'd be a good scum player based on him being very self-aware.
I scumread Pie's friendly attitude a lot. He's never happy whole yown to my knowledge. Croc and Press both scummy.
I scumread Pie's friendly attitude a lot. He's never happy whole yown to my knowledge. Croc and Press both scummy.
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When vearman was scum he tried waaaaay less to anseer people's interrogation auestions here he's actually stepping up to the plate even if he somehow mimics others at times. Tbh idk where the mimicking is, I just see the accusation.
This is evwn more in the direction he was in last game as town, here he's trying even harder as he began to as that game progressed. I townread Bearman as I townread Cookie last game. Bearman is solid town. He's asking very good questions in the last few pages and showing serious concern over town's victimisation if game mechanics go wrong.
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@oromagi
You lost track on vc? To you as town this game is 100% tryaclable but now you suddenly lost count for your magic powers? Maybe you care too little about it as you're mafia. Maybe that's why suddenly you want us to avoid lynching. Maybe not.
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@Speedrace
Press tjought there were roles assigned to us, he deflected it by saying he meant the later-given roles in the OP but I really think he slipped.
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@Speedrace
Croc is playing very different to before. When he's town he doesn't give a damn about being scumread and lynched, now suddenyl he's all on guard and trying? Yeah I scumread him hard for that.
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Bearman does have a strange habit of copying other while he's scum, I definitely aaw him do that to me and another in our game as scum together. It doesn't mean he's scum with me if he's doing it again. It's so extremely done that it can't be involuntary.
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Oh yeah, force everyone to out cards in all scenarios where joker isn't there and where two numbers or suits are the same. It will help people estimate combos to the fold or bet wiser. Don't fucking ever do a check/fold nonsense gambit my goodness.
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It is like this, press and croc are two of them, I can't work out the third
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Since it's a kill-all-town win condition do we assume three mafia yes (not two)?
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Agreed that's it let's go
Unvote Press
VTL Crocodile
I'm im agreeemnt and again have to go. I know me coming and leaving seems troll but I have tiny moments.
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I must go for now sorry all I know you love to hate me. In all seriousness both Press/Bearman and me/Pie are right. Pie and myself like to pressure and make risks happen, Bearman amd Press prefer slower paced betting you could say (I'm not talking about cards).
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@Speedrace
That can only happen if you force same-time outs as I said.
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@ILikePie5
Yeah but you're too friendly in agreeing with me and too accurate in why it's correct.
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He's too agreeable and correct in his understanding of game situation, this is so different to him when he was town.
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I scumread Pie for being so towny and friendly, when he is town, he seems to be aggressive and scummy. This is not a joke-read.
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With card reveals, split up number from suite, then have them reveal the suite at the same exactoment relatively preplanned when both can be there during the day phase same 4-second window kind of thing
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@Speedrace
You vs disc so far will be the situation
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@PressF4Respect
Your reaction is not towny. Either way I want to be a prick who votes someone and puts pressure like was done to me. It seems to be the optimal playstyle in this crowd. I am calling myself a prick here, I am not insinuating that it's wrong to play that way.
We should also lynch because why not? It seems mafoa wons only when all town is gone based on this OP, not when maf vs town is 50/50 so we can be aggressive and I am johnny chan
Anyway I would loke to say if/when I die this night phase, please remember to demand everyone to out their hands from the day before when piecong together the puzzle of roles. This is futile for the joker situation but do it for practise anyway, it's the only way to get estimations, CCs etc
We should also lynch because why not? It seems mafoa wons only when all town is gone based on this OP, not when maf vs town is 50/50 so we can be aggressive and I am johnny chan
Anyway I would loke to say if/when I die this night phase, please remember to demand everyone to out their hands from the day before when piecong together the puzzle of roles. This is futile for the joker situation but do it for practise anyway, it's the only way to get estimations, CCs etc
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