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@Vegasgiants
In which year is that true and how does that explain the question you think you have answered?
Liberals are more against Christianity than conservatives are, by far.
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Democratic Socialism is a branch of Socialism.
I actually have no idea wtf the original post is talking about because Germany and Italy as fascists conquered nations that all are right wing now, which nation is vegasgiants referring to?
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@Vegasgiants
And Islam is vigilantly against religious freedom, visit their countries. Experience it or research it...
It is also very against tolerance of anything getting too much.
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Muslims, be they conservative, liberal, apples or oranges, kill more Muslims than anybody else.
The vast majority of Muslims are conservative to begin with. Those that engage in sect-based aggression especially killing are almost entirely extremely conservative even for Muslims.
Islamic Sharia values are far closer to western Conservative values than they ever have been or will be to Western Liberal values.
I don't think the term Western matters but you and others seem to insist on it so I added it.
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What does proof mean?
Do you need proof that family, tradition, discipline, safety and humility (under a god especially byt more so in general) are the most severely and consistently held values by conservatives worldwide in any culture, no matter its split?
If you really don't know, then just admit it. You are giving a right wing libertarian's values telling me it is a consefvative's. I do get the confusion as especially in the US, terms have become murky.
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Islamic nations have some of the lowest tax rates on Earth, they very much believe in fiscal responsibility, at least for the general populace.
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I am not going to believe some politician, individually, over the clear clash between conservative and liberal values.
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Conservatives say limited government meaning cutting the parts of it that help, serve or protect the poor and marginalised. They also reduce beaureacracy only in ways that benefit the rich or native majority ethnicity. Documents, arrests and all of that are much harsher whether for immigrants or otherwise outcasted groups and individuals.
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Conservatives are against individual freedoms.
Right wing libertarians are not at least they say they are not.
A conservative society is a safe one for the majority, where people keep their mouth shut, head down and are disciplined.
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@Vegasgiants
And yet many Muslims live as liberals in democracies all over the world.How is this possible?
What do you mean? Iran is a democracy, can you be exact what you're asking?
Which Muslims are liberal? Do you mean people born to Muslim families that clearly disagree with Islam given their politics?
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@Vegasgiants
Muslim values are against American valuesChristian values are against American values
Wrong. This has nothing to do with American values as America has conservative, centrist and liberal values alike and 'not sure which' values like gun rights that are about liberty in one respect but about ignorance of the tyranny that guns bring citizens living in fear of them.
I said that Islam is against liberal values, regardless of which nation or culture you name. It doesn't matter if you pick liberal Americans or even liberal Saudis (who can't express their true preferences politically and views). It has absolutely 0 to do with Muslims or Liberals nor Christians or Catholic Priests that you are bringing up did pedophilia. It is entirely to do with the values of the core religion.
Liberals often defend Islam by saying that real Islam is peaceful and liberal and that only 'hijacked' or 'contorted' Islam is aggressively conservative and pro-Sharia. This is ignorant to the hilt, Islam has always been the single most conservative and aggressive religion out there in what it preaches, even if Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews or Sikhs were more aggressive in practise at points. The matter of fact is that Islam is not only completely against Liberalism's core values but it is aggressively so, it has always advocated a dogmatic approach, pressuring all within a vicinity to convert or to isolate and have nothing to do with them (but definitely both at once, not just leaving them alone).
This is also how Islam actually was superior to Christianity at its colonising, because it has a way of 'spreading' that is not 'obviously forceful' that Christianity lacks. Islam doesn't enter a nation only by the sword slaying and whips flogging, it enters, wins over by speech and truly, genuinely converts people with a charm at first that it drops as soon as it's established Sharia Law and switches around to become overt and brutal in its oppressiveness. This is as true in 2023 as the 'original Islam' just look what the Taliban did in Afghanistan, they explicitly said women will get education and then removed it along with many other tyranical approaches and right-removals.
This is why almost all Christian nations in Africa have noticeable Islam in them but the reverse is less true.
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@Vegasgiants
More conservatives are christians than liberals... Is there some point to what you're hinting at?
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@Vegasgiants
You are attacking some followers, a minority. I am merely noticing a religion that is irrefutably closer to convervatism is believed more tame by those that it hates more and stands more against.
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@IlDiavolo
You are spewing sheer unproven nonsense.
Islam is not inherently crime prone. The opposite is often true.
It depends which crime and such.
Despite having equally poor people, slums, scammers and all sorts, you are far far more likely to ve scammed, mugged and such by a Hindu in India than Muslim in Pakistan or India alike.
You are more likely to get mugged, raped, murdered or anything like fraud by Christians, Hindus and atheists worldwide than Muslims. If we talk scale despite Islam being the largest religion.
There are crimes they do. Honor killings and such are a thing and are brutal as are the floggings and such. That said, you wanted to suggest something that is just untrue. Muslims are a religion whose members are less prone to crime than those of other major religions, that is just a fact. Jews, Christians, Hindus and atheists are all more prone to crime per capita of follower.
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And YOU need to define "conservative" since YOU are the one that brought it up.
Upholding, living by and potentially pushing onto others values that include:
- Dressing to hide flesh, as a hardline rule.
- Seeing sexual urges and sex itself as for procreation only and a rare bonding experience for the married, married before they have sex.
- Resenting drugs, alcohol, music, gambling, gaming and anything that can be seen as a recreation that can get addictive and entrancing.
- Seeing men and women as two fundamentally different beings with a different purpose in life that links to their historic role in reproduction and family maintenance.
- Seeing men and women deviating from being disciplined, ordinary beings fulfilling their role as a father, mother etc as being distracted, unless a preacher or some sort of dogooder in a tangible easily understandable way.
- Resenting changes seeking to improve upon, evolve or alter things that already work and are deemed fine (if it aint broke don't fix it).
- Valuing harmony over creativity and using severe isolation tactics to pressure people to cave in if upsetting the status quo (conservative cultures force political correctness FAR more than liberal ones do).
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My point is simple and accurate. More Muslims are killed by other Muslims than are killed by non Muslims. Period QED
But all those Muslims that kill other Muslims are conservative. Which is what I am still lost as to how you tackle or deny it.
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@Vegasgiants
No woman can he a Cardinal or a pope
This lumps all Christians in with Catholicism and suggests that all men who cannot be the Pope or a Bishop are abused or mistreated. Women have literally got less rights and protection via law enforcement than men do under Sharia.
Christians supported and protected the largest pedophile ring the world has ever known.
So, you can say all Christians did or do something when only a minority of Catholics did but will ignore the fact that child trafficking, child marriages and pedophilic relationships are an actual part of Islamic countries in practise even today?
Your values are what you do...not what you say you do.
Firstly, this is false as values are core reasons and standards on which the decisions to act are based.
Secondly, I now believe you are completely derailing the thread in an intentional and malicious manner, nit at all abswering the question proposed in the title but wanting to make a redirect-villain to distract from it.
When you say your mission is to help the poor but you keep priceless works of art and jewels and palaces for yourself that's your values. Christians have killed and tortured millions for generations.
Do you believe they are genuine Christians?
The reasons this is key here is that real, genuine Islam allows for and encourages using sadism and slaughter to deter dissenters and infidels from opposing and resisting the spread and successful flourishing of Islam. This means that it is actually a lie, a true falsehood to simply dismiss the likes of ISIS saying they are fake Muslims violating Islam. Instead, they are real Muslims who have an interpretation of context of modern world as still being in the wartime era where Islam must use aggression to spread.
If you wish, I could theoretically give you verses and hadiths supoorting their actions but I refuse to actually produce such a manifesto even as a joke or devil's advocatw as it affects my status since it justifies intelligence agencies torturing me and invading my privacy.
If you are looking for the worst religion then Christianity certainly ranks up there with them
I am not sure how you got the idea that this thread in the politics section was abiut the worst religion.
If Allah is the real god then Islam is the best religion, by default. If not, that discussion is irrelevant to the thread unless explaining why liberals are less against it than conservatives are.
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@Vegasgiants
Many Muslims psychologically abuse each other to be scared shitless to be free from the cultlike religion. So, I disagree.
Not only that but because they are so anti medicine, anti psychiatry etc, they only have spiritual therapists and counsellors that violate confidentiality and add to the trust issues.
Perhaps research what living in Islamic nations is like before preaching that they hurt noone.
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@IlDiavolo
I do not understand what you are saying tbph.
You seem to believe that if a place lacks Muslims, it is safer by default.
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Provide a source for your statement that Muslims are not killing Muslims in Iraq or Afghanistan
They have done. Those 2 countries were actually founded upon such violence, especially Iraq under Hussein. Iraq used to be Shi'ite primarily, that was the 'naturally' formed ethnic background of Iraq.
I said that Iraq and Afghanistan were 2 of the most non-coincidentally both the most conservative vigilantly pro-Sharia nations and also the most violent. Iran wasn't even on that Pew Research list but would be extremely high basically 100% by force supporting Sharia.
Saddam Hussein's family and of course some strategic allies assisting them, blackmailed the Shi'ite (pronounced 'shiiah') to adapt to Sunni values (there's very different dress codes, prayer chants, ways of doing weddings and a lot of things).
They also then waged war with Iran primarily in a vicious rivalry. He also ironically was somewhat singularly a reason that Yemen and Saudi didn't have a vicious rivalry like they do now as he helped the Yemeni leader 'tame' the Shi'ites there.
He abused many Shi'ite within his nation and his son Uday did too.
I don't want to run you down a detailed history of Taliban and how it's linked to Afghanistan and what has been a continual struggle there for decades. Surely you don't need a source to believe that.
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You want a source that Islam of all sects that are engaging in killing each other is conservative to a high degree?Yes
I provided it and you ignored it.
What do you consider 'convervative' how are you defining it?
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I find no distinction in any study where a Muslim who has killed another is classed as a conservative Muslim.Perhaps you don't know what certain terms mean.
Could you clarify for me what you believe 'conservative' means?
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Indeed, the survey finds that support for making sharia the law of the land is often higher in countries where the constitution or basic laws already favor Islam over other religions.2 Majorities in such countries say sharia should be enshrined as official law, including at least nine-in-ten Muslims in Afghanistan (99%) and Iraq (91%). By comparison, in countries where Islam is not legally favored, roughly a third or fewer Muslims say sharia should be the law of the land. Support is especially low in Kazakhstan (10%) and Azerbaijan (8%).3
What are Afghanistan and Iraq known for? Violence.
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Pew Research is one of the most reliable statistics-analysing sources to pull out for free access to it on the Internet.
Look at the nations that are less extremely conservative than others but are all Muslim-majority. Then correlate it to killing other muslims due to rivalries of ethnicity and religious sect.
You will find that being more extremely conservative in a nation's Islam is correlated with being violent to other Muslim sects and countries.
If you didn't know Congo and Niger are historically so regularly violent that as recently as last month a violent Coup happened in Niger (It's pronounced ni-jer because it's French-inspired and for another obvious reason).
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Muslims that kill Muslims for religious or ethnic reasons are all very conservative.Provide a source for your statement.
You want a source that Islam of all sects that are engaging in killing each other is conservative to a high degree?
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Which part of my statement do you need sourced?
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@IlDiavolo
Your source is total BS, I have no idea what it's basing it on but this is a situation where I have to say your source is BS. The ranking makes no sense at all.
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@Vegasgiants
Anti gay
Islam is even more so.
Anti abortion
Islam is equally so. Do you support killing infants or what is the angle you come at this with? Perhaps the deeper issue is premarital sex with protection or what?
Anti women
How is Christianity anti-women?
Pro protection of pedophiles
Can you give evidence of this being part of the religion? Also, Islam has been far worse at this, child marriages as in teenagers or even 12 year-olds being married off is a thing.
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Muslims that kill Muslims for religious or ethnic reasons are all very conservative.
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In which country is that true?
Definitely not Iraq or Afghanistan (the stats on Afghanistan are lies, the truth is not known but kind of obvious).
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@Best.Korea
It's not the problem with religion, people are wrong there. It's a problem with humanity.
The secular perspective is we should be moral regardless of god, the religious perspective is that only fear of god's damnation and greed for god's rewards are to drive us to appear 'good' while having corrupt, greedy motives at heart.
There is a reason why in more barbaric times, religion was needed to tame people. They weren't motivated by societal wellbeing and still many aren't, they tend to lean right-wing.
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@cristo71
I’m starting to think you are merely being contrary for its own sake.
I often am, it's one trait Wylted and I share(d) throughout our history. I play devil's advocate very well at times, it just isn't too fun or enjoyable for extended periods.
I genuinely think that the term The West is actually ethnocentric and nonsense. The West just means white nations, people keep pretending that's not what it means. Nations that were built by and for caucasians are now the West except the few Eastern European ones that defy the rule.
Japan and South Korea are definitely social democracies but they have East Asian conservativeness woven into their cultures. Since they are Eastern on top of non-white people exclude them from the term The West. I am beginning to think The West just means white nations as I've grown older. I used to think that was ignorant to think but I genuinely realise now as I've grown that The West just literally means white nations. So, when people say The West is leading to the decline of white Christians they are inherently making a contradictory statement.
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@IlDiavolo
Well, I'm not sure if I fused religion with culture, what I know thought is that religion is part of culture. And you can't deny that muslims use religion as a basis of their culture and even their political life.
I think it's the other way around actually. ;) You are trying to argue with a secular person, not a religious one. Their way of life shaped their fairytale justification for it.
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@IlDiavolo
now they are the most safe countries in Europe.
In what metric are they safest? Those are 2 of the least safe places in Europe.
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Let’s remember the most famous Libertarian, Ayn Rand died penniless on welfare.
Why would that be an insult if you are left-wing?
Are you trying to degrade her for being a member of left-wing society?
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@IlDiavolo
Liberals love multiculturalism, so muslims fit pretty well in the diverse society these people promote.
Do they now? Could you please show me a Muslim society that is culturally diverse for any extended period of time before everyone caves into Sharia?
This may be the reason why Europe is full of muslims.
That couldn't be the reason, no... The reason is that it's geographically close to the Middle East (with Eastern Europe being the crossover into the part of Europe you probably are alluding to) and a desirable place to live economically, environmentally and technologically at the very least.
You are also fusing religion with culture. I maybe understand why but I am not sure what you mean there. You can appreciate Egyptian and Persian cultural aspects while ignoring the Islam. You can even do that with Omani and Saudi culture.
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@Vegasgiants
Christian values are just as bad
In theory or practise?
Could you list them out please?
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@cristo71
Muslims tend not to be: white
You do realise you are saying that Conservatives are more white supremacist and anti-non-whites? You're trying to push the other side of what you're admitting there but the flip side is very telling.
pro Christian
Value-wise, Islam is nigh-infinitely closer to Christianity than it is to secular liberalism both philosophically and culturally.
pro West
The West is not really the West, for instance South America isn't the West while Australia and NewZealand are.
The West consists of the majority caucasian nations that you pretend liberals hate. They love those nations even if they say they don't, they'd never want to live in an Islamic nation over a Western one if they're a true liberal believer.
and they have a victimized minority status within Western nations.
They have a minority status and the victimisation is due to conservatives targetting them to the highest of ironies.
Please do explain why liberal citizens are less islamophobic as a trend than conservatives are, not why politicians try to appeal.
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Could it be that liberals are much more apt to be 'politically correct" than are conservatives?
Partly, perhaps, however I would say that conservatives are even more politically correct, just differently. If a conservative believes in something or feels something taboo for their side of the political and cultural spectrum, they are even more so repressed than the 'liberals' who disagree with a liberal thing, both in terms of frequency and intensity of repercussions for expressing said thing.
I would say that in itself is one of the many things truer in Sharia than the West and closer to conservative outlook. Shut up, blend in and be very politically correct. That sums up both a very Christian and very Islamic society.
If I told you a hate crime attack happened attempting to slaughter Muslims, and told you regardless of who you bet on, the prize is 1.5x what you bet, how much would you bet on them being Liberal-leaning, Conservative-leaning or 'completely independent centrist'?
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Needless to say, Islamic social values AKA Sharia values are in direct violation and opposition of liberal ones much more often than they clash with conservative ones.
Both sides can feel free to answer, including people who believe Islam is a religion of peace. Educate us, tell us about how much more you know about Islam than those afraid of it.
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@Greyparrot
There are a lot of points to defend against or attack here at once and many seem to contradict themselves.
Rural lifestyle has shit tier law enforcement if we talk of the tech and investigative capacity and enables the most severe isolation possible of any lifestyle towards full-on city life.
I do understand, however, the general point being made here. It is accurate to suggest that since online communities such as this very website give people a 'gathering' feeling, their typical primate urge to be tribal is becoming less attached to real-life tribal/familial ties let alone close-proximity ties.
The only exception would be people naturally attracted (talking as friends not necessarily taboo attraction) to their family members or neighbours as friends. What I mean is that people who naturally gravitate to the personality types and energy levels/vibe of their family members and those in close proximity, are likely immune to the 'cybernetic erosion' of real-life ties.
We can, of course, reverse engineer this. It is now more possible than ever before to find people who share specific hobbies etc with you. The only thing that's truly worse off is spousal connections. You can't truly 'fuck' online, only mutually masturbate and talk about intimate things. That is likely to always be an issue, especially as everything is on the record (though that makes law enforcement far easier so if that's your priority, I don't get the issue).
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@TWS1405_2
that's double irony right there.
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Don't want this account linked to me irl other than a REALLY close friend/spouse. That 'anonymity' is pretty impossible to maintain when you're 1 of 6 active members 😂😂
Dead site, toxic membership, nothing to show off at all. The fact Wylted was elected over me only helps sum up the shitshow this is. He didn't even have a campaign thread that year other than offering bribery and a joke endorsement he literally paid money for Vermin Supreme to shill out and give him.
This entire thing is beyond repair. I have come to be at peace with it, it's sad but right now I'm not down to make a replacement website. One day, maybe. This website is largely a problem to get popular because most people aren't into debating itself and over time I am ending up being one of those people.
It's tiring arguing with a lot of typing for a voter or 2 to decide it all and they can be the most shallow-minded people or just having a terrible time irl we don't know about and voting impulsively due to emotions and bias.
The entire 'model' of this website is alluring to tryhard debaters/arguers but the fact only 6 members genuinely are active at any general time, in terms of the debating arena especially with the forums hosting maybe 13 at any time, is kind of cringe. There's just nothing to show, it's a dead site on life support. I wish the 'attacks' on DDO had not happened despite hating the mod in charge and a fair few key members for one specific reason: People didn't realise it was dying anyway (and I want them to admit and realise it) and very few people other than racist trolls and such were dedicated to the actual debating side of the website. That's why people like Mikal and Danielle could farm there so brutally well for much less effort; most opponents were trolls and it was a popular trollfest.
The 'community' as in genuine debaters had moved to the forums because of how shitty the voting and debating was and that's just the absolute truth of it. Even Airmax caved in and did rap battle troll nonsense more than real debates. It gets stale to participate in a site like this properly, you get tired and friends really resent each other voting against each other which adds this 'quiet corruption' that can't be spoken about but of course sits there.
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Not one human participating in this thread had a high enough awareness and intellect to reply to the actual post except best.korea, a self-admitted troll here.
I genuinely have to respect this irony.
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but why are they the enemies and why do people assume that religion is inherited and support this idea?
If the god of abrahamic religions were real, why would it be a lottery if your parents believed in the right religion, the right sect of it and raised you to act it out in the right way? Seems absurd to me.
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And ball caps? How many intellectuals drive pick up trucks?
How would I know?
Intellectual people don't bother worrying about that unless they sell vehicles, something to consider.
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@IlDiavolo
that has zero place in this discussion.
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On the left is Idris Elba clean shaven, on the right, hairy as can be.
Which is more typical for a Trump supporter or hippie? :)
The hairier brand of masculinity is the progressive one. Always has been in any culture.
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The actor Idris Elba is an extremely attractive black man in UK that is almost definitely left wing. He is decently intelligent in my opinion, maybe he is mediocre only. He is not low intellect and uses facial hair excellently.
Meanwhile Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage, right wing moronic figureheads for UK, don the clean shaven basic look.
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