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Trump tried to blame China for the Coronavirus. But we now know Trump tried to suppress news about Covid in America because he was told it would hurt his re-election.
Trump did everything to blame China for the cause of Covid starting with the Wuhan lab leak. But even the WHO team sent to investigate the Covid source did not find any evidence linking Covid to China or the Wuhan lab.
China has not ruled out America is the source of the coronavirus and the numbers don’t lie.
America still ranks first in Covid cases and deaths. It is still the epicentre of the disease. Note both ex and current president caught Covid. Case closed!!
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@Intelligence_06
--> @ShilaUmm no. I am a 11th grade High school student and I plan on going to a top 30 university
Does that mean you are not a talented mathematician as your earlier post advised?
You posted, “I definitely do not recommend a naturally talented mathematician into a professional liberal arts college.”
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High employment can absorb inflation better than low employment which leads to a recession.
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with Elon Musk acquiring twitter. It will be difficult to regulate social media.
With Trump media and Truth Social dropping in stock value, there will be little need to control fake news.
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The Bible is available in Esperanto so Christians will not be affected by the language change.
But I can see Atheists protesting. Having the site bombarded with protest over language will be no different than the current protests against religion.
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@zedvictor4
--> @ebuc @ShilaBrain Fog is a side effect of IT and social media addiction.Prove me wrong.Probably a global conspiracy masterminded by Elon Musk.
You are here, that is proof enough.
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Continuing with the case of the Historical Jesus.
Islamic view ofJesus.
Here are six things you may not know about the role of Jesus — and his mother, Mary — in Islam:
Jesus, Mary, and the angel Gabriel are all prominent characters in the Qur’an (as are Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and a bunch of other Bible characters).
Muslims believe that Jesus (called “Isa” in Arabic) was a prophet of God and was born to a virgin (Mary). They also believe he will return to Earth before the Day of Judgment to restore justice and defeat al-Masih ad-Dajjal, or “the false messiah” — also known as the Antichrist. All of this may sound pretty familiar to many Christians. (The fact that Muslims know that “al-Masih ad-Dajjal” is the Arabic name for the Antichrist created some...uh...unexpected problems for Netflix recently — warning: spoilers.)
Mary (called “Maryam” in Arabic) has an entire chapter in the Qur’an named for her — the only chapter in the Qur’an named for a female figure. In fact, Mary is the only woman to be mentioned by name in the entire Qur’an. As noted in the Study Quran, “other female figures are identified only by their relation to others, such as the wife of Adam and the mother of Moses, or by their title, such as the Queen of Sheba.” Mary is mentioned more times in the Qur’an than in the entire New Testament of the Bible.
Just as they do with all the other prophets, including Mohammed, devout Muslims recite “peace be upon him” after every time they refer to Jesus by name.
Muslims believe that Jesus performed miracles: The Qur’an discusses several of Jesus’s miracles, including giving sight to the blind, healing lepers, raising the dead, and breathing life into clay birds.
The story of Jesus’s birth as told in the Qur’an is also the story of his first miracle, when he spoke as an infant in the cradle and declared himself to be a prophet of God.
So although Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the son of God — a critically important distinction between Muslim and Christian views of him — Muslims do revere Jesus as an important prophet.
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@Lemming
I've never really paid 'much attention to what church says on the subject,But arguments against it, can fit into science easy enough I'd figure,Not that I'm saying people should or should not.People are partially formed of their experiences,Some experiences are habit forming,Experiences being what they are, forming of character,It's not a crazy argument that looking and thinking about smut, can leave an imprint on a person's mind,Greater the time or impact, greater the impression, one would suppose.. . .That being said, people are also formed of themselves, their material, genetics, set habits,People vary in libido,Probably easy for low libido to avoid,Hard for high, to avoid.Some habits like beer, easier to avoid, never start,But harder to avoid ever starting an 'idea, being born with the parts as humans are.. . .Still, I doubt that the 'only way to control it, is to use it,Though might be that works for some people,To me it'd seem more likely that using it, increases it,Habits like rivers, cut deeper a channel, more they flow
By the time you give all your reasons for masturbating you will be done. So what did you learn from all this self analysis?
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Americans were given handouts for staying at home because of Covid. With so many Americans dying from Covid the handout reserves grew bigger. So the stay at home policy was extended.
There is a higher chance of catching Covid staying indoors. So the handouts are working as intended. More Americans are staying at home and dying from Covid.
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@Intelligence_06
"Is College Worth It"I definitely do not recommend a naturally talented mathematician into a professional liberal arts college.
You did the right thing and quit after high school. A higher education would be a waste on you.
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GDP rose to 2.6%. That is after 2 quarters of negative growth. Recession might be avoided.
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How does America joining the Global Internet Censorship Committee advance it’s freedom rights when it is banning books in schools and libraries? American leads in the cancel culture. This move might simply be one to exert its influence on the Global Internet.
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@Yassine
--> @ShilaThe Muslim logic behind throat slitting.Muslims believe cutting the foreskin around the head of the penis (circumcision) will cause the penis to behave.Applying the same logic slitting a persons throat which is just below a persons head will also cause the infidel to behave.- I gotta admit, I laughed when I first read this. This is new sh*t I ain't seen before. Genuinely clever. I was gunna respond, but I'll let you have this one. Until next time.
Muslim men in Iran go through great effort to cut their foreskin so that their dick head is exposed. But want their women to cover their head with a hijab or face the morality police. The women in Iran are protesting this double standard and public shaming.
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Well that didn't take too much effort Brother D. 👍
Neither did this, Stephen!!
Stephen, Help your troubled and mentally ill BrotherD.
BrotherD., Think carefully what you said, “ I am NOT blaspheming Jesus because I have described Jesus' true historical modus operandi within the scriptures in Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, of which you are obviously unaware of because of your complete Bible stupidity! Our Jesus we worship, as the Serial Killer Yahweh God incarnate, was embarrassingly, greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent!
Now try to justify your blasphemous claims against Jesus.
BrotherD., You have only finished high school and your career highest income is less than 20,000$? You are 56 years old. Learn to show respect.
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@Tradesecret
I agree both Stephen and BrotherD. don’t have anything to contribute. But they complement each other.
Why does BrotherD. hate women so much? Maybe if DebateArt gets busy, the mods won’t put up with their nonsense.
I will heed your warning and avoid the likes of Harikrish. Odd that someone with a Indian name had so much to say about the Bible.
Did my case for the Historical Jesus feel complete? I am working on how Catholics see Jesus. I got help from Rosends to give a view of Jesus in the Talmud/Torah.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD., How is a Shila inferior to you when you have just finished high school and your career highest income is less than 20,000$? You are 56 years old. Learn to show respect.
BrotherD., Think carefully what you said, “ I am NOT blaspheming Jesus because I have described Jesus' true historical modus operandi within the scriptures in Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, of which you are obviously unaware of because of your complete Bible stupidity! Our Jesus we worship, as the Serial Killer Yahweh God incarnate, was embarrassingly, greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent!
Now try to justify your blasphemous claims against Jesus.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
“The Scriptures” are the words written in the Holy Bible. The Gospel referred to Jesus Christ and the apostles’ teachings.
(2 Timothy 3:16) was written by Paul. Therefore it is not scriptures but apostle teachings.
Gospels are Jesus Christ’s teachings or revelations. They recount Jesus’ life, ministry, crucifixion, and resurrection. It is primarily about Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection. It is therefore a biography of Jesus.
BrotherD. You suffer from an inferiority complex because of your low education and low income of less than 20,000$ annually. That is less than what most women make.
How Jesus Viewed and Valued Women
Jesus's Countercultural View of Women
The place of women in the first-century Roman world and in Judaism has been well-documented and set forth in several recent books.1 Most frequently, women were regarded as second-class citizens.
Jesus’s regard for women was much different from that of his contemporaries. Evans terms Jesus’s approach to women as “revolutionary” for his era.2 But was his treatment of women out of character with Old Testament revelation, or with later New Testament practice? Other chapters in this volume will show that it was not.
Disciples Come in Two Sexes, Male and Female
For Christ, women have an intrinsic value equal to that of men. Jesus said, “. . . at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’” (Matt. 19:4; cf. Gen. 1:27). Women are created in the image of God just as men are. Like men, they have self-awareness, personal freedom, a measure of self-determination, and personal responsibility for their actions.
Scanzoni and Hardesty point out that “Jesus came to earth not primarily as a male but as a person. He treated women not primarily as females but as human beings.”3 Jesus recognized women as fellow human beings. Disciples come in two sexes, male and female. Females are seen by Jesus as genuine persons, not simply as the objects of male desire.4 Hurley believes “the foundation-stone of Jesus’s attitude toward women was his vision of them as persons to whom and for whom he had come. He did not perceive them primarily in terms of their sex, age, or marital status; he seems to have considered them in terms of their relation (or lack of one) to God.”5
Three Clear Examples
Examples of this even-handed treatment of women by Jesus are found in the four Gospels.
First, Jesus regularly addressed women directly while in public. This was unusual for a man to do (John 4:27). The disciples were amazed to see Jesus talking with the Samaritan woman at the well of Sychar (John 4:7-26). He also spoke freely with the woman taken in adultery (John 8:10–11).6 Luke, who gives ample attention to women in his Gospel, notes that Jesus spoke publicly with the widow of Nain (Luke 7:12–13), the woman with the bleeding disorder (Luke 8:48; cf. Matt. 9:22; Mark 5:34), and a woman who called to him from a crowd (Luke 11:27–28). Similarly, Jesus addressed a woman bent over for eighteen years (Luke 13:12) and a group of women on the route to the cross (Luke 23:27-31).
A second aspect of Jesus’s regard for the full intrinsic value of women is seen in how he spoke to the women he addressed. He spoke in a thoughtful, caring manner. Each synoptic writer records Jesus addressing the woman with the bleeding disorder tenderly as “daughter” (references above) and referring to the bent woman as a “daughter of Abraham” (Luke 13:16). Bloesch infers that “Jesus called the Jewish women ‘daughters of Abraham’ (Luke 13:16), thereby according them a spiritual status equal to that of men.”7
Third, Jesus did not gloss over sin in the lives of the women he met. He held women personally responsible for their own sin as seen in his dealings with the woman at the well (John 4:16–18), the woman taken in adultery (John 8:10–11), and the sinful woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:44–50). Their sin was not condoned, but confronted. Each had the personal freedom and a measure of self-determination to deal with the issues of sin, repentance, and forgiveness.
Jesus's Valuation of Women Today
Even though clear role distinction is seen in Christ’s choice of the apostles and in the exclusive type of work they were given to perform, no barriers need exist between a believer and the Lord Jesus Christ, regardless of gender. Jesus demonstrated only the highest regard for women, in both his life and teaching. He recognized the intrinsic equality of men and women, and continually showed the worth and dignity of women as persons. Jesus valued their fellowship, prayers, service, financial support, testimony and witness. He honored women, taught women, and ministered to women in thoughtful ways.
As a result, women responded warmly to Jesus’s ministry. Have things changed too drastically today for us to see this same Jesus? Not at all. Modern women can find the same rich fulfillment in serving Christ as did the Marys and Marthas of Judea, or the Joannas and Susannas of Galilee.
BrotherD., Think carefully what you said, “ I am NOT blaspheming Jesus because I have described Jesus' true historical modus operandi within the scriptures in Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, of which you are obviously unaware of because of your complete Bible stupidity! Our Jesus we worship, as the Serial Killer Yahweh God incarnate, was embarrassingly, greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent!
Now try to justify your blasphemous claims against Jesus.
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@Sidewalker
Sidewalker sorry I got you mixed up with Stephen.
Jesus in the Talmud.
Excerpts from Rabbi Rosends link.
Bastard.
The Accusation
Insults Against Blessed Mary, Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.
"Jesus was a bastard born of adultery." (Yebamoth 49b, p.324).
"Mary was a whore: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man." (Sanhedrin 106a &b, p.725).
"Jesus was a magician and a fool. Mary was an adulteress". (Shabbath 104b, p.504).
R. Shimon ben Azzai said: I found a book of geneologies in Jerusalem and in it is written "The man Plony is a bastard."
Balaam
R. Yochanan said (regarding Balaam): In the beginning a prophet, in the end a sorcerer.
Rav Papa said: As people say, "She was the descendant of princes and rulers, she played the harlot with carpenters."
The Accusation
Gloats over Jesus Dying Young, A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died:
"Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."
The passage
A sectarian said to R. Chanina: Do you know how old Balaam was? [R. Chanina] replied: It is not written. However, since it says (Psalms 55:24) "Men of bloodshed and deceit will not live out half their days..." he was 33 or 34. [The heretic] said: You said well. I have seen the chronicle of Balaam and it said "At 33 years Balaam the lame was killed by Pinchas (Phineas) the robber."
Sifrei on Deuteronomy 34:10
"Never again did there arise in Israel a prophet like Moses" - But in other nations there did arise. Who? Balaam the son of Beor. But there is a difference between Moses's prophecy and Balaam's prophecy.
Moses did not know who spoke to him but Balaam knew who spoke to him, as it says (Numbers 24:16) "The words of the one who hears the sayings of G-d..."
Moses did not know when G-d would speak to him until he was spoken to but Balaam knew when He would speak, as it says (ibid.) "Who knows the knowledge of the Supreme One..."
With Moses, G-d would not speak to him until he was standing, as it says (Deuteronomy 5:28) "But as for you, stand here with Me..." But with Balaam, G-d would speak to him even while fallen, as it says (Numbers 24:4) "Who sees the vision of the Almighty, while fallen with uncovered eyes."
Avot DeRabbi Natan 2:5
Why is Job called (Job 1:8) "A perfect and upright man"? To teach us that he was born circumcised. Adam was also born circumcised as it says (Genesis 1:27) "So G-d created man in His image..." Seth was also born circumcised as it says (ibid. 5:2 ) "He begot in his likeness and his image..." Noah was also born circumcised... Shem was also born circumcised... Jacob was also born circumcised... Joseph was also born circumcised... Moses was also born circumcised... Even the wicked Balaam was born circumcised... Samuel was also born circumcised... David was also born circumcised... Jeremiah was also born circumcised... Zerubabel was also born circumcised...
Talmud Sanhedrin 106a
Numbers (24:14) "Come, I shall advise you..." Rabbi Abba bar Kahana said: [Balaam] said to them: Their G-d hates promiscuity and they desire flaxen clothes. Let me give you this advice. Make tents and put old prostitutes in front of them and young ones inside... When the Jews are walking in the market, the old lady offers to sell them clothes at market value and the young one offers it cheaper. After two or three times she tells him that he is already a comfortable visitor and should choose what he wants, all the while a bottle of Amonite wine sitting beside her. She offers him a glass of wine. After he drinks it will burn him up and he will ask for sex. She will take out her idol and demand that he worship it first. He will say that he is a Jew and she will say that all she is asking is that he defecate [and he will not know that this is the worship of that idol]. She will also say that she will not sleep with him until he denounces the Torah of Moses.
Mishnah Avot 5:19
Whosoever possesses these three qualities belongs to the disciples of Abraham our father: a generous eye, a humble spirit, and a meek soul. But he who possesses the three opposite qualities -- an evil eye, a proud spirit, and a haughty soul -- is of the disciples of Balaam the wicked.
How do the disciples of Abraham differ from the disciples of Balaam? The disciples of Abraham enjoy this world and inherit the world to come, as it is written (Proverbs 8:21) "Endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries." The disciples of Balaam inherit Gehenna and go down to the pit of destruction, as it is written (Psalm 55:23) "But you, O G-d, will cast them down into the lowest pit; the bloodthirsty and treacherous shall not live out half their days. But I will trust in you."
Professor Louis Ginzberg, "Some Observations on the Attitude of the Synagogue Towards the Apocalyptic-Eschatological Writings", Journal of Biblical Literature (1922), p. 121 n. 18
One may therefore state with absolute certainty that the entire Talmudic-Midrashic literature does not know of any nicknames for Jesus or his disciples.
John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew (1991), vol. 1 p. 95
For instance, a radical position is represented by Johann Maier, who maintains that not only the Mishna but also both Talmuds lack any authentic, direct mention of Jesus of Nazareth41...
In my opinion, Maier's arguments are especially convincing for the Mishna and other early rabbinic material: no text cited from that period really refers to Jesus. He thus confirms the view I defend in this section.
41 See Johann Maier, Jesus von Nazareth in der talmudischen Uberlieferung (Ertrage der Forschung 82; Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, 1978). His position, which is argued in minute detail throughout the volume, is summarized on pp. 263-75.
The Accusation
Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."
The Text
[Onkelos Bar Kalonikus] called up Balaam from the dead. [Onkelos] asked: Who is honored in that world? [Balaam] replied: Israel. [Onkelos asked:] What about joining them? [Balaam] replied: (Deut. 23:7) "You shall not seek their peace or welfare all your days." [Onkelos] asked: What is your punishment? [Balaam answered]: In boiling semen.
[Onkelos] called up Yeshu from the dead. [Onkelos] asked: Who is honored in that world? [Yeshu] replied: Israel. [Onkelos asked:] What about joining them? [Yeshu] replied: Seek their good. Do not seek their bad. Whoever touches them is as if he touched the pupil of his eye. [Onkelos] asked: What is your punishment? [Yeshu answered]: In boiling excrement. As the mast said: Whoever mocks the words of the sages in punished in boiling excrement.
All of the Yeshu references you are listing were about people who lived in different decades or a different century, as you acknowledged in your previous post under "conclusion", it's unlikely that the Jesus of Christianity is mentioned anywhere in the Talmud.Every historical author mentioned , Biblical or otherwise, were themselves Jews, it's unlikely that any of them held "the Jews" to be responsible for "deicide" of the Christ, this anti-semitic concept came from a much later time and sentiment.Granted, Jews do not accept Jesus to be their Messiah of prophecy, but that is because he did not possess the expected qualifications of the Jewish Messiah, the Christian hostility associated with that fact came about centruies later and is generally not reciprocated by Jews.
There are no anti-Semitic concepts in the Torah or Talmud.
Torah definition: (in Judaism) the law of God as revealed to Moses and recorded in the first five books of the Hebrew scriptures (the Pentateuch).
Talmud definition: the body of Jewish civil and ceremonial law and legend comprising the Mishnah and the Gemara. There are two versions of the Talmud: the Babylonian Talmud (which dates from the 5th century AD but includes earlier material) and the earlier Palestinian or Jerusalem Talmud.
The post is about;
Jesus in the Talmud.
Excerpts from Rabbi Rosends link.
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@Sidewalker
--> @BrotherD.ThomasDeuteronomy was written somewhere between 700 and 1400 years before Jesus was born dumbass.
Tradesecret thinks BrotherD.is a Christian from Kentucky. We should have been warned.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
BrotherD., How is a Shila inferior to you when you have just finished high school and your career highest income is less than 20,000$? You are 56 years old. Learn to show respect.
BrotherD., Think carefully what you said, “ I am NOT blaspheming Jesus because I have described Jesus' true historical modus operandi within the scriptures in Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, of which you are obviously unaware of because of your complete Bible stupidity! Our Jesus we worship, as the Serial Killer Yahweh God incarnate, was embarrassingly, greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent!
Now try to justify your blasphemous claims against Jesus.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
TO THE MEMBERSHIP:Poor Shila stepped in the proverbial poo again with her ungodly quote of: "BrotherD., Thank you for sharing your views about Jesus which is in stark contrast to the Bible verses you quoted which simple acknowledge a jealous God."Yes, Jesus relates to a Jealous God concept, to the point where Shila forgot to mention that Jesus is so jealous, that He wants us to MURDER anyone that tries to make us change gods:"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, BUT KILL HIM. Your hand shall be the first raised to SLAY HIM; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall STONE HIM TO DEATH, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)Then Christians have to ask themselves, with Jesus wanting us to MURDER in the passage above, is He still considered to be ever loving and forgiving, NO HE IS NOT! But, just watch the Bible fool Shila run from this fact, just watch! LOL!
You don’t read too well.
It has already been stated Jesus was not mentioned in the Torah.
Here you are a attributing (Deuteronomy 13:7-12) which is part of the Torah to Jesus. Why don’t you try reading before you post?
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Stephen, I noticed you have shared your views about Jesus.
Here is one that you found made very little sense to you.
Jesus was terrified of what was to come.
And his payers and plea’s went unheard and ignored and unanswered by his “father”. He lost his faith and wanted no part of what can only be seen a pre-planned moronic plot.
Luke 22:41-42 New King James Version (NKJV)
41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed, 42 saying, “Father, if it is Your Will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.”
Matthew tells us of Jesus making his request of the Father twice: "Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken away from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will'"(Matthew 26:39) and "He went away a second time and prayed, 'My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done'" (Matt. 26:42).
This man was obviously absolutely terrified of what he was about to face we have to ask, did he bargained for this, did he not understand the scripture or the script. Did he not know that all of this mission was leading up to a sacrifice, his own sacrifice?
We can only conclude that he didn’t have a clue that this was how it was all supposed to end.
Mark attempts to put positive spin his prayer "'Abba, Father,' he said, 'everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will"(Mark 14:36).
But the non response and total silence from his “father” are the same: a complete and utter refusal to even recognise the absolute peril his “only son” was in.
It seems only his so called “father” could excuse him of this savage and brutal commitment. Had this Jewish mission been intended to go this far; for this young man to be “scourged& nailed to beams of wood, & speared in the ribs.
If this was the “will of the father” then who would want such a savage indifferent being for a father? And it shouldn’t go unnoticed that not only did god, the “father” ignore and refused to answer the pleadings and prayers of this poor young man but was so indifferent to his ONLY SON’s pleading and begging to be released from this contract that he couldn’t be bothered to show up himself to comfort his only son who had “sweated blood” out of sheer fear, but sent a messenger to say ‘there there, have faith, everything will be alright in three days time.
Like all of these gospels, this story simply does not make a single piece of sense.
Here is another link claiming lucifer is Jesus.
I have created one or two threads concerning Satan/Lucifer. In one of those threads it was seen to have been strongly suggested that Lucifer was also know as the light bringing "morning start". #2 and some biblical scholars seem to agree.https://www.history.com/topics/folklore/history-of-the-devil
It was also suggested in the link below that Lucifer was the "serpent" who tempted Eve AKA Satan and Devil and the same is referred to as "“the ancient serpent” (Revelation 12:9, 20:2)
So all of these titles appear all to be references to the same being. And this verse is believed by Christians to be a reference to Lucifer and all his titles :Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!
I am sure that this will be vehemently denied by Christians as referring to Satan aka Lucifer and all his other epithets.
And for one simple reason. Jesus (their god) also calls himself;
" the root and offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.” (Revelation 22:16)…
Could it really be that Lucifer is just another name for Jesus of which he had many.? We are never allowed to forget that Jesus was with god from the beginning, as was Lucifer Satan /devil serpent, where he was also known as the Word. John 1
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Since I am the ONLY TRUE Christian within this Forum, I have to accept the following biblical axioms relative to my serial killer Jesus the Christ!THE BIBLE STATES THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD IN JESUS: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5)JESUS IS GOD OF THE CHRISTIANS: “And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces and said, “The Lord, he is God; the Lord, he is God.” (1 Kings 18:39)PETER SAYS JESUS IS GOD: “Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours.”JESUS BEING GOD IS SHOWN TO BE A WEAK “CONTROL FREAK” THOUGH HIM BEING JEALOUS! :("For you shall worship no other god, For the Lord, Whose name is Jealous, Is a jealous God.”( Exodus 34:14)“You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me.” (Exodus 20:5)“For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.” (Deuteronomy 4:24)“For the Lord your God in your midst is a jealous God—lest the anger of the Lord your God be kindled against you, and he destroy you from off the face of the earth.” (Deuteronomy 6:15)“The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies.” (Nahum 1:2)Therefore, I am NOT blaspheming Jesus because I have described Jesus' true historical modus operandi within the scriptures in Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, of which are the following biblical axioms, to wit: Jesus is shown to be jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent!MOST IMPORTANTLY, JESUS SAYS TO MURDER UNBELIEVERS OF HIS FAITH:"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, BUT KILL HIM. Your hand shall be the first raised to SLAY HIM; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall STONE HIM TO DEATH, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)Pseudo-Christians, can we still proffer that Jesus is all loving and forgiving? NOT!!! :(
BrotherD., Thank you for sharing your views about Jesus which is in stark contrast to the Bible verses you quoted which simple acknowledge a jealous God.
Since I could not find Jesus described in either the Torah or Talmud as blasphemously as you have as a true modern Christian from Kentucky. I am considering adding it as a Christian from Kentucky view of Jesus before I add what Catholics have to say about Jesus.
I should also mention your neighbor’s 2nd grader named “Tommy” who helps your with your scriptures, even though you already thanked Tommy in your earlier post by saying, “Thank you Tommy, like I promised to you, I’ll give you a big Mickey D’s credit card for you and your sister.”
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@Best.Korea
I masturbated 2-3 times per day on average, which lasted 1-2 hours per day.It was too much time, and it started to affect everything. Everything became boring to me.I was able to stop, mostly thanks to voice apps and overuse of sound therapy apps.
It will be interesting to hear Kim Jung-un ordering Koreans like you to stop masturbating.
jawi geuman!!! Best.Korea.
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Jesus in the Talmud.
Excerpts from Rabbi Rosends link.
Bastard.
The Accusation
Insults Against Blessed Mary, Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.
"Jesus was a bastard born of adultery." (Yebamoth 49b, p.324).
"Mary was a whore: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man." (Sanhedrin 106a &b, p.725).
"Jesus was a magician and a fool. Mary was an adulteress". (Shabbath 104b, p.504).
R. Shimon ben Azzai said: I found a book of geneologies in Jerusalem and in it is written "The man Plony is a bastard."
Balaam
R. Yochanan said (regarding Balaam): In the beginning a prophet, in the end a sorcerer.
Rav Papa said: As people say, "She was the descendant of princes and rulers, she played the harlot with carpenters."
The Accusation
Gloats over Jesus Dying Young, A passage from Sanhedrin 106 gloats over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was?--He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."
The passage
A sectarian said to R. Chanina: Do you know how old Balaam was? [R. Chanina] replied: It is not written. However, since it says (Psalms 55:24) "Men of bloodshed and deceit will not live out half their days..." he was 33 or 34. [The heretic] said: You said well. I have seen the chronicle of Balaam and it said "At 33 years Balaam the lame was killed by Pinchas (Phineas) the robber."
Sifrei on Deuteronomy 34:10
"Never again did there arise in Israel a prophet like Moses" - But in other nations there did arise. Who? Balaam the son of Beor. But there is a difference between Moses's prophecy and Balaam's prophecy.
Moses did not know who spoke to him but Balaam knew who spoke to him, as it says (Numbers 24:16) "The words of the one who hears the sayings of G-d..."
Moses did not know when G-d would speak to him until he was spoken to but Balaam knew when He would speak, as it says (ibid.) "Who knows the knowledge of the Supreme One..."
With Moses, G-d would not speak to him until he was standing, as it says (Deuteronomy 5:28) "But as for you, stand here with Me..." But with Balaam, G-d would speak to him even while fallen, as it says (Numbers 24:4) "Who sees the vision of the Almighty, while fallen with uncovered eyes."
Avot DeRabbi Natan 2:5
Why is Job called (Job 1:8) "A perfect and upright man"? To teach us that he was born circumcised. Adam was also born circumcised as it says (Genesis 1:27) "So G-d created man in His image..." Seth was also born circumcised as it says (ibid. 5:2 ) "He begot in his likeness and his image..." Noah was also born circumcised... Shem was also born circumcised... Jacob was also born circumcised... Joseph was also born circumcised... Moses was also born circumcised... Even the wicked Balaam was born circumcised... Samuel was also born circumcised... David was also born circumcised... Jeremiah was also born circumcised... Zerubabel was also born circumcised...
Talmud Sanhedrin 106a
Numbers (24:14) "Come, I shall advise you..." Rabbi Abba bar Kahana said: [Balaam] said to them: Their G-d hates promiscuity and they desire flaxen clothes. Let me give you this advice. Make tents and put old prostitutes in front of them and young ones inside... When the Jews are walking in the market, the old lady offers to sell them clothes at market value and the young one offers it cheaper. After two or three times she tells him that he is already a comfortable visitor and should choose what he wants, all the while a bottle of Amonite wine sitting beside her. She offers him a glass of wine. After he drinks it will burn him up and he will ask for sex. She will take out her idol and demand that he worship it first. He will say that he is a Jew and she will say that all she is asking is that he defecate [and he will not know that this is the worship of that idol]. She will also say that she will not sleep with him until he denounces the Torah of Moses.
Mishnah Avot 5:19
Whosoever possesses these three qualities belongs to the disciples of Abraham our father: a generous eye, a humble spirit, and a meek soul. But he who possesses the three opposite qualities -- an evil eye, a proud spirit, and a haughty soul -- is of the disciples of Balaam the wicked.
How do the disciples of Abraham differ from the disciples of Balaam? The disciples of Abraham enjoy this world and inherit the world to come, as it is written (Proverbs 8:21) "Endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries." The disciples of Balaam inherit Gehenna and go down to the pit of destruction, as it is written (Psalm 55:23) "But you, O G-d, will cast them down into the lowest pit; the bloodthirsty and treacherous shall not live out half their days. But I will trust in you."
Professor Louis Ginzberg, "Some Observations on the Attitude of the Synagogue Towards the Apocalyptic-Eschatological Writings", Journal of Biblical Literature (1922), p. 121 n. 18
One may therefore state with absolute certainty that the entire Talmudic-Midrashic literature does not know of any nicknames for Jesus or his disciples.
John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew (1991), vol. 1 p. 95
For instance, a radical position is represented by Johann Maier, who maintains that not only the Mishna but also both Talmuds lack any authentic, direct mention of Jesus of Nazareth41...
In my opinion, Maier's arguments are especially convincing for the Mishna and other early rabbinic material: no text cited from that period really refers to Jesus. He thus confirms the view I defend in this section.
41 See Johann Maier, Jesus von Nazareth in der talmudischen Uberlieferung (Ertrage der Forschung 82; Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, 1978). His position, which is argued in minute detail throughout the volume, is summarized on pp. 263-75.
The Accusation
Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."
The Text
[Onkelos Bar Kalonikus] called up Balaam from the dead. [Onkelos] asked: Who is honored in that world? [Balaam] replied: Israel. [Onkelos asked:] What about joining them? [Balaam] replied: (Deut. 23:7) "You shall not seek their peace or welfare all your days." [Onkelos] asked: What is your punishment? [Balaam answered]: In boiling semen.
[Onkelos] called up Yeshu from the dead. [Onkelos] asked: Who is honored in that world? [Yeshu] replied: Israel. [Onkelos asked:] What about joining them? [Yeshu] replied: Seek their good. Do not seek their bad. Whoever touches them is as if he touched the pupil of his eye. [Onkelos] asked: What is your punishment? [Yeshu answered]: In boiling excrement. As the mast said: Whoever mocks the words of the sages in punished in boiling excrement.
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@Tradesecret
-> @BrotherD.Thomasquack quack
BrotherD. responded to your quack quack.
BrotherD. replied: Miss "Quack, Quack" Tradesecret, what's your next excuse you are going to use to RUN AWAY from members that have forgotten more about the Judeo-Christian Bible than you will ever learn about it?
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@Avery
Functionally, regardless of whether the religion in question is true, it will solve issues that humans face. Namely:(1) Creating an untouchable, unseeable leader who can never be caught in a scandal, contradiction or anything untoward (something that humans will never be able to rectify if they themselves are leaders, due to their imperfection).(2) Adds mystical magic to morality so that it seems divine, rather than just an impulse. This is especially important for cause-driven people who want to feel like they are living with a real purpose. It also helps to prevent crimes of all natures.(3) Quells fear of the unknown with answers to queries that scare humans (e.g. what happens after death? You go to Heaven or hell; you are reincarnated; you enter paradise etc.).(4) Creates free labor as a religious zealot will gladly do things in the name of the divine, all the whilst making them feel good for doing so.Without religion, there are important holes to fill, and I don't think Atheism or Agnosticism fill them. I think it could be said that humans currently need religion to function.
Are you saying atheists are disadvantaged?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
It would of been way cooler if the bible was written in a language that not even the writers knew.On like a flash drive.Hey remember at school playing ummmm. chineese whispers ?
Actually we have passed that milestone.
Jesus spoke Aramaic but the New Testament is written in Greek. So the Bible was written in Greek a language that not even the writers knew because they all spoke Aramaic. Except maybe for Paul who was a citizen of Rome.
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@Tradesecret
--> @ShilaI don't tell lies as a general principle. Yes sometimes when it comes to Stephen and to Brother D, I am happy to speculate about their lives. Such as suggesting Brother is from Southern Kentucky. He never denied it - so my speculation may well have been correct. The same with Stephen and his educational status. He has never denied that he failed high school. If of course either of them denied these things - then I would stop saying it.I take the view that both of them are envious of me. They dislike me. that's ok. but they shouldn't keep lying about me.
What is troubling is the many links they provide as evidence of your past indiscretions and confessions. Why did you choose to go public with your excursions into the abyss?
Your reputation as a Pastor is tainted. The only way to stop this is to have a change in heart and mind.
To help BrotherD. I have turned to the Torah and Talmud after reading his spiritual beliefs.
BrotherD., mocks Jesus on this very thread, “ I am NOT blaspheming Jesus because I have described Jesus' true historical modus operandi within the scriptures in Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, of which you are obviously unaware of because of your complete Bible stupidity! Our Jesus we worship, as the Serial Killer Yahweh God incarnate, was embarrassingly, greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent!
I am trying to get the Hebrew translation to BrotherD. portrayal of Jesus so I can go back to the Talmud to find equivalent adjectives for Jesus that Jews used to justify his crucifixion.
You can find more details on my thread, “The Case for the Historical Jesus.” There is even a link provided by Rabbi Rosens to what the Talmud says about Jesus.
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@TWS1405
--> @ShilaI wasn't forced to retire. I chose to retire. Living for me and my wife is better than dying for "the man."
So you went back to your wife after realizing what "the man." and you were doing to each other could have killed you. But "the man." damaged you enough that you had to retire. That does set the record straight.
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@rosends
I am trying to get the Hebrew translation to BrotherD. portrayal of Jesus so I can go back to the Talmud to find equivalent adjectives for Jesus that Jews used to justify his crucifixion.
BrotherD., mocks Jesus on this very thread, “ I am NOT blaspheming Jesus because I have described Jesus' true historical modus operandi within the scriptures in Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, of which you are obviously unaware of because of your complete Bible stupidity! Our Jesus we worship, as the Serial Killer Yahweh God incarnate, was embarrassingly, greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent!
Thank you Rabbi Rosends. I glanced through your link and reached the same conclusion that both the Torah and Talmud do not mention Jesus. So there was little justification for the Jews to demand Jesus’s crucifixion.
The fact the Jews went through several displacements from their homeland and suffered persecution and antisemitism since the beginning of their history and no Messiah showed up , should be considered evidence that Jews identify with Jesus and share a common destiny with Jesus.
Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).
Sorry I could not give you a Talmudic reference.
Conclusion
It seems clear by now that there is no consensus whether Jesus is mentioned at all in the Talmud. Most of the supposed "blasphemies" of Jesus and Mary in the Talmud do not refer to them at all. However, there can be no denying, and no rabbi would deny this, that the authors of the Talmud did not believe in Jesus' messiahship or his divinity. If you are looking for Christian fellowship then Jewish literature is not the place to look. However, there is no basis at all to state unequivocably that the Talmud calls Jesus a bastard or that Mary was a prostitute who had sex with many men. As has been shown, those passages definitely do not refer to Jesus.
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The world should thank Dr Anthony Fauci for helping Wuhan get ahead of it’s virus program.
The Chinese city of Shanghai started administering an inhalable COVID-19 vaccine on Wednesday in what appears to be a world first.
The vaccine, a mist that is sucked in through the mouth, is being offered for free as a booster dose for previously vaccinated individuals, according to an announcement posted on an official city social media account.
Needle-free vaccines may persuade people who don't like getting a shot to get vaccinated, as well as help expand vaccination in poor countries because they are easier to administer.
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@K_Michael
--> @sadoliteThere are 2 sexes (outside of chromosomal disorders). Gender is a social construct, as evidenced by how gender roles differ from culture to culture and by species. As such, gender is only limited by how many society comes up with.
You have more than a gender issue. You have a species dysphoria
What is species dysphoria?
Species dysphoria is the experience of dysphoria and dysmorphia involving the belief of one's body being the wrong species. A person may not be happy with their body image and may hallucinate or think of themselves as an animal of some sort.
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@Wylted
It was pretty obviously manufactured. My talks with people close to what is going on indicates that they were downplaying the fact it was a lab leak because they didn't want to alienate Chinese scientists who were of immense help in combating the pandemic. I don't think anybody in the know we're in denial about this day one, but it they had a pretty serious ethical conundrum.1. Be honest about the lab leak theory and lose cooperation with the Chinese who were a major help in battling COVID-19.2. Down play and even lie about the lab leak so that way they could get cooperation with scientists who worked on COVID-19 and knew it best so they could move quickly and save countless lives.I think dishonesty is wrong in any case, but I might think differently if I had a choice of being honest and adding 1 million potential deaths or lying and saving 1 million lives.As for the other main point about running drills prior to the COVID outbreak. There have been people raising the flag for years about the potential for a very serious pandemic. A few years prior to COVID-19 I watched a documentary following some frustrated scientists around who could not get help trying to prevent the next pandemic because of 2 main problems. The first problem was there is zero money made from preventing a pandemic. The second problem is that public officials had an optimism bias and thought a pandemic was very unlikely despite a major one being way overdue.
If China was the source of the Covid-19 virus why was America the epicentre of Covid ranked number 1 with some 99 plus cases and over a million deaths.
China ranks 107 with 250,000 cases and 5000 deaths.
Trump banned travel to China after the first case was reported from an American visiting Wuhan.
January 21 — CDC Confirms First US Coronavirus Case
A Washington state resident becomes the first person in the United States with a confirmed case of the 2019 novel coronavirus, having returned from Wuhan on January 15, 2019.
But Covid in America was undetected because it was winter time and flu season. So Covid was confused with the common flu till China provided the DNA for Covid-19.to WHO Jan 11, 2020.
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@Wylted
Just jerk off prior to praying and you should be fine
Where would the motivation to continue to pray come from?
If Best.Korea masturbates after he prays daily. You can be assured he will pray daily.
Read his OP. Best.Korea is a creature of habit. Good or bad.
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Members who are following the case for the Historical Jesus will be shocked to read that Jesus was mocked both in the Talmud and New Testament.
Jesus in the New Testament compared to the Talmud.
The Talmudic stories make fun of Jesus’ birth from a virgin, fervently contest his claim to be the Messiah and Son of God, and maintain that he was rightfully executed as a blasphemer and idolater. They subvert the Christian idea of Jesus’ resurrection and insist he got the punishment he deserved in hell — and that a similar fate awaits his followers.
Jesus is mocked in the New Testament too.
Matthew 20:19 and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up.”
Mark 10:34 They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again.”
Luke 18:32 For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon,
Matthew 27:29 And after twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand; and they knelt down before Him and mocked Him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!”
Matthew 27:31 After they had mocked Him, they took the scarlet robe off Him and put His own garments back on Him, and led Him away to crucify Him.
Mark 15:20 After they had mocked Him, they took the purple robe off Him and put His own garments on Him. And they *led Him out to crucify Him.
Luke 22:63 Now the men who were holding Jesus in custody were mocking Him and beating Him
Matthew 27:41 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying,
Mark 15:31 In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes, were mocking Him among themselves and saying, “He saved others; He cannot save Himself.
Luke 23:11 And Herod with his soldiers, after treating Him with contempt and mocking Him, dressed Him in a gorgeous robe and sent Him back to Pilate.
Luke 23:36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine,
Luke 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.
Luke 23:35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.”
Acts 17:32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, “We shall hear you again concerning this.”
Other comparisons:
BrotherD., mocks Jesus on this very thread, “ I am NOT blaspheming Jesus because I have described Jesus' true historical modus operandi within the scriptures in Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, of which you are obviously unaware of because of your complete Bible stupidity! Our Jesus we worship, as the Serial Killer Yahweh God incarnate, was embarrassingly, greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent!
I am trying to get the Hebrew translation to BrotherD. portrayal of Jesus so I can go back to the Talmud to find equivalent adjectives for Jesus that Jews used to justify his crucifixion.
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Jesus in the Talmud
Scattered throughout the Talmud, the founding document of rabbinic Judaism in late antiquity, can be found quite a few references to Jesus — and they’re not flattering. In this lucid, richly detailed, and accessible book, Peter Schäfer examines how the rabbis of the Talmud read, understood, and used the New Testament Jesus narrative to assert, ultimately, Judaism’s superiority over Christianity.
The Talmudic stories make fun of Jesus’ birth from a virgin, fervently contest his claim to be the Messiah and Son of God, and maintain that he was rightfully executed as a blasphemer and idolater. They subvert the Christian idea of Jesus’ resurrection and insist he got the punishment he deserved in hell — and that a similar fate awaits his followers.
Schäfer contends that these stories betray a remarkable familiarity with the Gospels — especially Matthew and John — and represent a deliberate and sophisticated anti-Christian polemic that parodies the New Testament narratives. He carefully distinguishes between Babylonian and Palestinian sources, arguing that the rabbis’ proud and self-confident countermessage to that of the evangelists was possible only in the unique historical setting of Persian Babylonia, in a Jewish community that lived in relative freedom. The same could not be said of Roman and Byzantine Palestine, where the Christians aggressively consolidated their political power and the Jews therefore suffered.
A departure from past scholarship, which has played down the stories as unreliable distortions of the historical Jesus, Jesus in the Talmud posits a much more deliberate agenda behind these narratives.
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Continued from previous post…
Specific references to Jesus.
Sanhedrin 43a[79] relates the trial and execution of a sorcerer named Jesus (Yeshu in Hebrew) and his five disciples. The sorcerer is stoned and hanged on the Eve of Passover.[80]
Sanhedrin 107[81] tells of a Jesus ("Yeshu") who "offended his teacher by paying too much attention to the inn-keeper's wife. Jesus wished to be forgiven, but [his rabbi] was too slow to forgive him, and Jesus in despair went away and put up a brick [idol] and worshipped it."[82]
In Gittin 56b and 57a,[83] a story is told in which Onkelos summons up the spirit of a Yeshu who sought to harm Israel. He describes his punishment in the afterlife as boiling in excrement.[84][85]
Some scholars claim that the Hebrew name Yeshu is not a short form of the name Yeshua, but rather an acrostic for the Hebrew phrase "may his name and memory be blotted out" created by taking the first letter of the Hebrew words.[86]
In addition, at the 1240 Disputation of Paris, Donin presented the allegation that the Talmud was blasphemous towards Mary, the mother of Jesus (Miriam in Hebrew), and this criticism has been repeated by many Christian sources.[87] The texts cited by critics include Sanhedrin 67a,[88] Sanhedrin 106a,[89] and Shabbath 104b.[90] However, the references to Mary are not specific, and some assert that they do not refer to Jesus' mother, or perhaps refer to Mary Magdalen.[91]
Summary
Scholars have identified the following references in the Talmud that some conclude refer to Jesus:[92]
- Jesus as a sorcerer with disciples (b Sanh 43a–b)
- Healing in the name of Jesus (Hul 2:22f; AZ 2:22/12; y Shab 124:4/13; QohR 1:8; b AZ 27b)
- As a Torah teacher (b AZ 17a; Hul 2:24; QohR 1:8)
- As a son or disciple that turned out badly (Sanh 103a/b; Ber 17b)
- As a frivolous disciple who practiced magic and turned to idolatry (Sanh 107b; Sot 47a)
- Jesus' punishment in afterlife (b Git 56b, 57a)
- Jesus' execution (b Sanh 43a-b)
- Jesus as the son of Mary (Shab 104b, Sanh 67a)
As a sorcerer with disciples
Sanhedrin 43a relates the trial and execution of Jesus and his five disciples.[93] Here, Jesus is a sorcerer who has enticed other Jews to apostasy. A herald is sent to call for witnesses in his favour for forty days before his execution. No one comes forth and in the end he is stoned and hanged on the Eve of Passover. His five disciples, named Matai, Nekai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah are then tried. Word play is made on each of their names, and they are executed. It is mentioned that leniency could not be applied because of Jesus' influence with the royal government (malkhut).
The full passage is:
The Rabbis taught, Yeshu had five disciples: Mattai, Nakai, Buni, and Todah. They brought Mattai in, he said, "Shall Mattai be executed? Isn't it written, ‘When (māṯay) can I go and meet with God?’" They said to him, "Yes, Mattai shall be executed, for it is written, ‘When (māṯay) will he die and his name perish?’"
They brought Nakai in, he said, "Shall Nakai be executed? Isn't it written, ‘Do not kill the innocent (nāqī) and righteous’?" They said to him, ‘Yes, Nakai shall be executed, for it is written, ‘In the hiding places he kills the innocent (nāqī).’"
They brought Netzer in, he said, "Shall Netzer be executed? Isn't it written, ‘and a branch (nēṣer) shall grow out of his roots’?" They said to him, ‘Yes, Netzer shall be executed, for it is written, ‘But you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch (nēṣer).’"
They brought Buni in, he said, "Shall Buni be executed? Isn't it written, ‘Israel is my firstborn son (bənī)’?" They said to him, "Yes, Buni shall be executed, for it is written, ‘I will kill your firstborn son (bīnḵā).’"
They brought Todah in, he said, "Shall Todah be executed? Isn't it written, ‘A psalm of thanksgiving (tōḏā)’?" They said to him, "Yes, Todah shall be executed, for it is written, ‘The one who offers thanksgiving (tōḏā) as his sacrifice glorifies Me.’"
— Sanhedrin 43a
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Members who are following the case for the Historical Jesus will be shocked to read that Jesus is not found in the Torah.
Torah is the Hebrew word for “instruction.” The Torah is most widely known as the five books of Moses. Another word for Torah is “Pentateuch,” which is more widely used in some Jewish nations. Like the Talmud, the Torah is also a very religious manuscript. They both contain religious writings important to the Jewish community. The Torah is basically the Hebrew Bible – it contains the 613 commandments, and is the whole context of Jewish laws and traditions.
Some people may say that the Torah is the Old Testament. To the Jewish people, the concept of the Old Testament is not widely used. It is, in fact, unfamiliar for them. There is also no such thing as the New Testament in the scriptures of the Jews; the books that Christians call the New Testament are not part of their scriptures. “Tanakh” is the Jewish term for the written Old Testament. Most people from find it hard to distinguish between the two Jewish concepts just from their definitions. The key difference is that the Torah mainly describes the initial five chapters of the Hebrew Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy). To put it simply, the Torah comprises the entirety of Jewish law and tradition. Under Jewish beliefs, Moses received the Torah as a written text alongside an oral version or commentary. This oral section is now what the Jews call the Talmud. The Talmud depicts the primary codification (by Rabbi Judah the Prince) of the Jewish decrees.
Is Jesus found in the Talmud?
The Talmud is the most vital manuscript of the conventional Judaism religion. It is literally the Hebrew word for “learning,” and is sometimes referred to as the six orders of the Mishnah. The Talmud contains the history of the Jewish religion, as well as their laws and beliefs. It is the basic tool for learning the ethics behind the customs of their religion.
Judaism Torah
The oral Torah, or the Talmud, explains the meaning behind the written texts so it is easier for people to apply them in their daily lives. The scriptures are a vital part of how they should live. All the oral traditions were compiled and called the Mishnah. Over the years, more commentaries are added to the Mishnah – these are referred to as the Gemara. There are two kinds of Talmud: the Babylonian Talmud (the more complete one and more widely used of the two) and the Jerusalem Talmud.
The Jewish law being practiced by modern Jews is mostly based on the Torah; a lot of people actually say that the Torah is the most important reference in the Jewish community. However, Jews still base some of their practices in Rabbinic Judaism on the Talmud.
All in all, the commentary of the sages, including their writings within the debate between Jews about the Torah, is what we now call the Talmud. Its purpose is to help people follow the rules of the Torah.
Possible Talmudic references to Jesus
There are several Talmudic passages that are said to be referring to Jesus. The following are among those considered the most controversial, contested, and possibly the most notable.
Our rabbis taught Jesus the Nazarene had five disciples, and these are they: Matthai, Naqqai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah.
The master said: Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic and deceived and led Israel astray.
"Jesus son of Stada is Jesus son of Pandira?"
Rav Hisda said, "The husband was Stada and the lover was Pandera."
"But was not the husband Pappos son of Yehuda and the mother Stada?"
No, his mother was Miriam, who let her hair grow long and was called Stada. Pumbedita says about her: "She was unfaithful to her husband."
On the eve of Passover, Jesus the Nazarene was hanged and a herald went forth before him forty days heralding, "Jesus the Nazarene is going forth to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and instigated and seduced Israel to idolatry. Whoever knows anything in defense may come and state it." But since they did not find anything in his defense they hanged him on the eve of Passover. Ulla said: "Do you suppose that Jesus the Nazarene was one for whom a defense could be made? He was a mesit (someone who instigated Israel to idolatry), concerning whom the Merciful [God] says: Show him no compassion and do not shield him (Deut. 13:9). With Jesus the Nazarene it was different. For he was close to the government."
There are still noticeable challenges to the identification of Yeshu as Jesus, as elsewhere in the Talmud his stepfather, Pappos ben Yehuda, is mentioned as being martyred with Rabbi Akiva[6] and is himself mentioned as being among the Pharisees returning to Israel following their persecution by John Hyrcanus,[5] which would place Yeshu's lifetime anywhere between 130 after and 70 years before the birth of Jesus.
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Here is an exchange between Shila and BrotherD.
This is a good example why building a case for the Historical Jesus is important. It helps us understand the different views people hold of Jesus some bordering on the extreme.
Shila wrote: “We now know the Jesus you worship is very different from the Jesus Christians worship.
Here is how you described the Jesus you worship BrotherD.:
BrotherD wrote: “our Jesus we worship, as the Serial Killer Yahweh God incarnate, was embarrassingly, greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent!
Why are you blaspheming Jesus, BrotherD.?"
HELLO SHILA BIBLE FOOL! I am NOT blaspheming Jesus because I have described Jesus' true historical modus operandi within the scriptures in Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, of which you are obviously unaware of because of your complete Bible stupidity! Now, once again, are you ready to discuss the aforementioned TRUE statements relative to Jesus, or are you going to run away from them and go into hiding, just like the equally Bible ignorant Tradesecret continually does?
BrotherD., You even deny you are blaspheming Jesus after your reconfirmation in quotes, “I am NOT blaspheming Jesus because I have have described Jesus' true historical modus operandi within the scriptures in Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, of which you are obviously unaware of because of your complete Bible stupidity!
Our Jesus we worship, as the Serial Killer Yahweh God incarnate, was embarrassingly, greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent!
Again, remember dear, this thread is about the "Historical Jesus," therefore the MO of Jesus as I have shown above is pertinent to your ungodly thread!
BrotherD., Your MO of Jesus is nothing like the Historical Jesus based on the Bible or historical sources Shila used to build the case of the Historical Jesus.
Waiting for your response!
BrotherD., Think carefully what you said, “ I am NOT blaspheming Jesus because I have described Jesus' true historical modus operandi within the scriptures in Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, of which you are obviously unaware of because of your complete Bible stupidity! Our Jesus we worship, as the Serial Killer Yahweh God incarnate, was embarrassingly, greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent!
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Who is Jesus Christ for us today?
Let me close by suggesting there are really three broad options in how we understand Jesus.
There is Jesus-according-to-Jesus, seen in the very first layer of Christian tradition. The Jesus who preached the kingdom of God. The radical, apocalyptic, healing, prophetic Jesus. The Jesus who opposed the authorities of his time in radical love for the poor, sinners, Gentiles, women, children, all who are oppressed, which took him all the way to the cross. This Jesus asked not only for belief but for imitation and obedience of his way of life, filled with specific moral content, and moral demand.
“Jesus asked not only for belief but for imitation and obedience of his way of life.”
Then there is Crucified Savior Jesus, visible in the New Testament but somewhat distant from the synoptic Gospels. This is Jesus who dies an atoning sacrificial death for human sin. This is certainly a biblically defensible vision, but one which largely misses the Jesus we meet in the synoptic Gospels and offers little guidance for life.
But finally, there’s the Jesus we Christians have pretty much just made up. Hallmark Jesus, Success Jesus, Vacant Jesus — so remote from Jesus, so alien from the New Testament, so easily made into a vessel of hellish ideologies or opiate complacency.
Any version of Christianity that loses the primal Jesus of the Gospels is at risk of moral emptiness, seduction and collapse.
I call for a fresh wind of study, preaching and discipleship recommitment to the Jesus we meet in the primal core of the synoptic Gospels. This is the prophetic, radical, just, powerful, defiant preacher of the dawning reign of God. The one who both tells us and shows us how to live. The one who makes it clear that we cannot serve both him and anyone else.
Let me close by suggesting there are really three broad options in how we understand Jesus.
There is Jesus-according-to-Jesus, seen in the very first layer of Christian tradition. The Jesus who preached the kingdom of God. The radical, apocalyptic, healing, prophetic Jesus. The Jesus who opposed the authorities of his time in radical love for the poor, sinners, Gentiles, women, children, all who are oppressed, which took him all the way to the cross. This Jesus asked not only for belief but for imitation and obedience of his way of life, filled with specific moral content, and moral demand.
“Jesus asked not only for belief but for imitation and obedience of his way of life.”
Then there is Crucified Savior Jesus, visible in the New Testament but somewhat distant from the synoptic Gospels. This is Jesus who dies an atoning sacrificial death for human sin. This is certainly a biblically defensible vision, but one which largely misses the Jesus we meet in the synoptic Gospels and offers little guidance for life.
But finally, there’s the Jesus we Christians have pretty much just made up. Hallmark Jesus, Success Jesus, Vacant Jesus — so remote from Jesus, so alien from the New Testament, so easily made into a vessel of hellish ideologies or opiate complacency.
Any version of Christianity that loses the primal Jesus of the Gospels is at risk of moral emptiness, seduction and collapse.
I call for a fresh wind of study, preaching and discipleship recommitment to the Jesus we meet in the primal core of the synoptic Gospels. This is the prophetic, radical, just, powerful, defiant preacher of the dawning reign of God. The one who both tells us and shows us how to live. The one who makes it clear that we cannot serve both him and anyone else.
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@Stephen
You wasted over a dozen posts labelling them false witnessesOk. I won't be wasting anymore posts on this particular point.
Maybe you can help BrotherD. not to waste anymore posts on gender dysphoria. He is not a medical expert and like you only finished high school.
Let us improve ourselves and DebateArt in that process
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@Stephen
You accept my conclusion the two false witnesses were not false witnesses because they repeated what Jesus claimed.
That was a question I asked you . See the question mark. It looks like one of these >?< . And do you see the underlined? So please read carefully and answer my question if you can or you will be wasting your own time and mine. Did you read what I wrote at #19
The Gospel of Matthew does not post it as a question.
I know. It was my question to you.So I will rephrase my question one last time and as simple as I can. Do you believe that these so called "false witnesses" were not false witnesses after all.Yes they were false OR No they wasn't false?
Read Matthew 26
Matthew 26:Finally two came forward 61 and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”
Even Matthew does not call the two who came forward “false witnesses”.
All Matthew wrote: Finally two came forward 61 and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”
You wasted over a dozen posts labelling them false witnesses and distorting what Matthew said.
Tradesecret suspected you never finished high school. But it is clear you struggle to read scriptures.
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@zedvictor4
--> @Intelligence_06Planetary appearance depends upon the point of view of the observer.Though a perfect sphere would have a flat surface. Wherever it was viewed from.What you are referring to is a disc like object as opposed to a spherical object.And the two main problems with a disc, are the edge and the underneath.And because these problems never present themselves, it is therefore safe to say with all certainty that the Earth is a spherical object.As I stated, Disc World relies upon an infinite conspiracy and human silliness.And just take a look at facebook and you will see how silly some people like to be.So "Flat Earth Model" is wrong in its interpretation of the Earth. (As every flat-earther knows).But nonetheless fun to consider.
You are out of your league. You couldn’t even fill your membership details and left all personal information marked ‘unknown’.
To see the earth surface curve;
You should be able to detect it from an aeroplane at a cruising height of around 10,600 metres (35,000 feet), but you need a fairly wide field of view (ie 60 degrees) and a virtually cloud-free horizon. The reality is that clouds, hills and mountains mean we rarely get to see the kind of perfectly flat horizon where the curve would be most obvious.
However, you can detect the curve of the Earth from ground level at the coast with a pair of binoculars – just look for distant ships on the horizon and you’ll see that their hulls start to disappear before their masts and other superstructure. Ancient Greek scientists, who spotted this without any optical aids, used this to conclude that the Earth was round.
Earth's curvature
The Earth curves about 8 inches per mile. As a result, on a flat surface with your eyes 5 feet or so off the ground, the farthest edge that you can see is about 3 miles away.
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@TWS1405
--> @Shila🖕🏿🖕🏿🖕🏿🖕🏿🖕🏿
You cannot even count the number of people on the jury. Any wonder you were forced to retire.
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@Stephen
--> @ShilaNope. Any more questions about that dulcet dunce tradesecret I suggest you refer them to tradesecret.and I will remind you that you are cross threading which is against the CoC rules. Be carfulYou have taken an unrelated post from this thread here>The logic of Bible - The Ultimate logic (debateart.com)and reposted it here>#377 on this thread
I needed your link to show how you and BrotherD. expects to build a fence to keep out Tradesecret with just 3 nails.
Do you and BrotherD. seriously believe you can build a fence around Tradesecret with just 3 nails? BrotherD.has been hammering the same 3 nails in the fence since the construction began. Lol!!
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@Stephen
John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
So Matthew should not consider them false witnesses. They only repeated what Jesus said.
So they were not "false" witnesses then? I have already covered that aspect. Here> #19 < Please read it properly before you start repeating me and yourself.
You accept my conclusion the two false witnesses were not false witnesses because they repeated what Jesus claimed.
That was a question I asked you . See the question mark. It looks like one of these >?< . And do you see the underlined? So please read carefully and answer my question if you can or you will be wasting your own time and mine. Did you read what I wrote at #19
The Gospel of Matthew does not post it as a question.
Matthew 26:Finally two came forward 61 and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”
Yet you continue to maintain they are anonymous false witnesses.
That is because the bible says so. It is not my opinion; it is the opinion of the gospel writers.Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”And if you had read my post at #19 you would have read : "So there was certainly indeed some truthto their testimony. The only part that can be in dispute is the beginning of John which omits _ “ I am able to”.
Accept my conclusion and move on.
Now you are contesting what John omits. You are still stuck on Matthews 26.
I will move on when I think I can move on. If you would stop repeating what has already been covered, I may not have to keep pausing to bring you up to speed.
Speed is not your asset. You still haven’t filled your membership profile after 4 years. Get real!!
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@Stephen
--> @BrotherD.ThomasTradesecret, your problem has always been that you think that the membership is as stupid as you are, and LIE like you do adinfinitum to try and get out of predicaments that I and others easily place you in!Nail on head Brother D.
Do you and BrotherD. seriously believe you can build a fence around Tradesecret with just 3 nails? BrotherD.has been hammering the same 3 nails in the fence since the construction began. Lol!!
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“Jesus according to Jesus” — the core depiction of Jesus himself as presented in the synoptic Gospels. This very core Jesus, the most basic Jesus, looked like this:
- Jesus created and articulated the Love Command as the highest statement of moral obligation: love God with everything you have, and love your neighbor as yourself.
- Jesus placed priority on the poor. This was visible in his preaching, his parables and his actions.
- Jesus offered welcome to sinners. He also taught that welcoming sinners is what God does. This drew criticism because it upset the expectations of those around him.
- Jesus demonstrated openness to Gentiles. He taught that many will come from all directions to the messianic banquet, he ministered to many Gentiles, and he commissioned the disciples after his resurrection to go and make disciples of all nations.
- Jesus included women among his close followers. He gave women a vital role in his ministry, including them among his band of followers, ministering to them just the same as to men, and appearing to them after his resurrection.
- Jesus demonstrated openness and love to children. People brought sick kids to Jesus and he healed them. Jesus’ rejected the disciples’ efforts to shoo them aside. He elevated a certain kind of innocent childlikeness.
- Jesus relaxed Jewish food laws and related regulations about purity. He emphasized inward rather than external cleanness.
- Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper. This unforgettable last meal with Jesus became an important part of the ritual life of the early church and provides a link between the ministry of Jesus, his death and the practice of his followers.
- Jesus proclaimed the kingdom of God, which he understood as already evident in his ministry but also with a grand consummation lying ahead. He offered powerful, authoritative teaching and was notable for his striking parables.
- Jesus healed and exorcised demons through the power of the Holy Spirit.
- Jesus understood himself as commissioned by God for ministry, sent by God his loving Father, anointed by the Spirit, coming as messiah of Israel.
- Jesus understood that, contrary to common expectation, his messiahship meant suffering, rejection and death rather than triumph. He expected to die in Jerusalem, and he did.
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@Stephen
--> @ShilaJohn 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”So Matthew should not consider them false witnesses. They only repeated what Jesus said.So they were not "false" witnesses then? I have already covered that aspect. Here> #19 < Please read it properly before you start repeating me and yourself.
You accept my conclusion the two false witnesses were not false witnesses because they repeated what Jesus claimed. Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
Yet you continue to maintain they are anonymous false witnesses.
Accept my conclusion and move on. Besides they did not factor in the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus was not charged with blasphemy.
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