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@Paul
I'm not implying that you personally are any of those things they are all examples.
Ok. You were using you in your comment, which made me think you were including me.
Getting a little money for votes is what's going on
Every politician does this. It is part of their job to set good economic policy, and a major part of all campaigns is discussing (more like fighting for the best soundbites, but whatever) whose ideas will work best in the economy.
the problem is that you can't trust Trump. Even though we all like getting money the real problem is his character and the fact that he's screwed practically everyone that he's ever done business
I agree.
including the American people
Sometimes his policies have been bad for America, and sometimes they've been good.
However, none of this takes away from the fact that you are willing to call people racists, hateful, and dumb for the sole reason that they voted for a candidate you don't like.
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No. He'd commit a bannable offense in his first debate.
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@drafterman
Awesome. VTL Mharman
Not that it matters, since AD was lynched already.
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@Paul
Wow. Even though I explicitly stated that I don't support Trump and that I largely agree with your summary of his character, as soon as I express support for two of his policies - two! - you immediately imply that I love him and wonder aloud whether I am racist, hate Mexicans, or am just dumb. And I don't even support him and explicitly said so. That says a lot, Paul. It really does.
And even if I did support him, it would not make your comments one iota more acceptable. Trashing people's character for the sole reason that they voted for a candidate that you don't like is not acceptable, and it's not logical. You don't know what Trump supporters think; you don't know why they support him; you don't know their motives. But rather than acknowledge that people can legitimately disagree with you without being racist or hateful or dumb, you immediately jump to those conclusions and begin accusing people of those things. And on top of that, the person you're accusing doesn't even support Trump. Wow.
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Is it possible to get a substitute mod? I'm guessing not, because only Mharman would know who is who.
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@disgusted
Way to make up numbers out of thin air, disgusted. In the first Iraq War, only 4000 civilians were killed with 600 missing. And that's the total, not the ones killed by Americans.
In the Afghanistan war, only 31000 civilians were killed. Again, this is the total, not the amount killed by the US.
Regardless of the numbers, there is still no contradiction here. In war, there is sometimes no way to avoid killing the innocent, and that's a horrible thing. However, when the alternative is to let even more people die to evil groups like the Taliban, fighting the war still saves lives in the end.
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@zedvictor4
I'd forgotten that dolphins were carnivores and that Bill's referred to Buffalo Bill and not real buffaloes.
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6-7. If the Chargers win tomorrow, there's still hope for the planet.
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@Vader
Congrats on your victory. It's so hard to do well with NFL predictions when you have to pick against the Patriots, Cowboys, and 49ers. I'd really have to stretch it to pick them.
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How did opinions and polls bring down DDO? I don't really see a connection there.
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5-7. This league hates the environment with a passion found only in lying science deniers. But fear not, fellow social justice warriors: though we be on the md rocks for the moment, oro magificent phoenix will avoid death and arose from the ashes. Our virtue, so while in its flame, will speed us acrossed the finish line of the race and save the earth.
Okay, that was just stupid.
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@bmdrocks21
Thanks. I was having problems finding the numbers.
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@Paul
In the Republican tax cut.
They did also rearrange how some exemptions work, so the effects of the cut vary significantly from person to person. A few people had tax increases, some had no significant change, some had a tax decrease. But while it's easy to argue about how the exemptions affected people, the actual tax rate on the middle class was decreased.
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@TheRealNihilist
If you don't it is unfair please see this. All of them are actually making the bare increase that much greater because you are not comparing the US last year household income but you are comparing this year US to other countries. This is what I consider a bad way of finding out if the US is improving by comparing barely even comparable countries to the US.
I sort of see your point, given that there are far more developing countries than developed countries, which would skew the numbers.
I don't know why you posted the dailycaller because I find them to be spreading misinformation.
I know they have an obvious bias, but I haven't known them to spread misinformation. In any case, it doesn't matter so far as that article is concerned, because the stats are from other, non-Daily-Caller organizations. They're just citing statistics.
Don't you want to do better than that?
I probably should have been more clear in how I was using that article. Reread the Forbes article and pay attention to the European countries it mentions. Out of the 5-6 it mentions, the only one with a bottom 10% that's doing better than America's is Sweden. America's bottom 10% does better than the bottom 10% in France and Germany and is comparable to the bottom 10% in Finland and Denmark.
Politics and economics do mix together. Whenever a revolution does occur it will impact the economy. Yes it would take a lot to incite the economy and enough income inequality can do just that.
It would take a lot more than what's in the US. Also, I think that revolutions based on income inequality are sparked in large part because the income inequality is due to an oppressive government (the French revolution for instance), which we don't really have in the US.
Funny but can happen.
Maybe, but I doubt it. The far right has the guns to try it but isn't so concerned with income inequality. If they revolted, it wouldn't be because of that. The far left is opposed to guns and doesn't really have any, so I don't know how they would revolt.
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@TheRealNihilist
Logic is valid just not valid inherently like with pretty much anything in the world. It is the most valid thing we have in gaining information.
I agree. I just don't see how we can prove that it's valid. However, I don't think it really needs to be proven.
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@TheRealNihilist
Wouldn't you consider God to be one of the most important questions?
I consider it the most important question, but there are times when I want to talk about something else, like whether or not logic is valid.
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@TheRealNihilist
Are you actually comparing this to 3rd world countries? This is not a fair comparison.
Depends on how you look at. To some degree it's unfair, but it also illustrates just how well America is doing.
Of course the number would be high but would it as high compared to European countries?
Pretty well, actually.
Too much will lead to a revolution.
That's a political problem, not an economic problem. Also, nearly every country has income inequality, but most don't have revolutions. I think it would take a lot more than that to incite a revolution.
Maybe they will come together.
I know I shouldn't find this funny, but the idea of Alex Jones teaming up with Ocasio-Cortez to overthrow the 1% is a ridiculous image.
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@TheRealNihilist
I am simply showing the real life examples of philosophy. If we take this theory and apply it to the real world. We realize we can't be certain God exists.
If it's valid, we can't be certain of anything. Why single out God?
Do you want me to speak to you in another thread?
No, I don't have time for a "Does God exist?" debate right now.
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@WaterPhoenix
I want to hear avoid's full claim before hammering
That's a good idea, but he'll probably just say survivor.
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@AvoidDeath
Early advocacy for VTNL is a horrid reason for lynching me. But fine, if you want to lynch, go ahead, kill an innocent person. We should VTNL on every DP1 as I look at it. You cannot scum tell if you have 36 hours to do so. And wouldn't a mafioso move be to lynch someone, not supporting peace? Look at it from a logical point of view Speedrace.
As several of us have explained throughout this thread, we have good chances of helping our cause with a VTL. First-round VTLs do work. I should know, since it caught me when I was mafia in the last game.
VTL AvoidDeath
I don't know his resistance to a vtl is because he's new or because he's an SK, but I think he's the best option right now, unless we want to lynch Arose for inactivity.
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@Vader
SirAnon is mafia for sure
I'm not mafia. If I was, why would I second a petition for the mafia to unveil themselves instead of just unveiling myself? I'm a survivor.
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@TheRealNihilist
I can use this exact same argument for my case. What makes yours more true?
Nothing, so far as the validity of logic is concerned. It applies to everything equally.
Are you saying you know for sure God exists as in 100% or 99% sure or something else?
Yes, but this is totally off topic. Why are you making this about religion? It's a philosophical thought experiment meant to show how you can't be certain about anything because you can't be certain about logic.
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@TheRealNihilist
Please clarify. My example was 100% close to reality excluding the numbers of course.
Which example are you referring to?
1.
Before 21st CenturyRich people 8Poor people 2CurrentlyRich people 32Poor people 10
or 2.
So you are okay with lets say a recession and the rich are billionaires and there is no millionaires just people with a dollar to their name. Lets say every year they make another dollar. Would you be okay with that?
Even though I'm not sure which you're referring to, I will try to clarify as best I can. I'm saying that increasing income inequality is not a bad thing, so long as the poor are getting richer. However, that is not an absolute statement (which I think is the point of confusion). I'm not fine with situations where the poor make only a few dollars and their income improves only by a dollar each year. However, the problem in that scenario isn't that the rich are richer than the poor; the problem is that the poor are in extreme poverty and their incomes are increasing very slowly. (I'm ignoring the fact that such a scenario would almost certainly be a result of the rich controlling an oppressive government, in which case the oppression is the main problem) To use an analogy, an increasing GDP is a good thing; however, that does not mean every country with an increasing GDP is in a good economic condition. A country can have an increasing GDP, but only have a $1 GDP. In other words, simply because a country has an economic quality that is either good or at least not bad does not mean that the country is in a good economic state. I hope this rambling makes sense. Economics is complicated.
With the link provided that is true. Look at the graph.As you can see:The bottom quintile barely moved.4th quintile are moving more than the bottom but not by much.Middle quintile more then 4th.2nd quintile most so far.Top Quintile much more than 2nd.Top 5% on par give or take with 2nd.
The bottom quintile (why does the spellchecker think that isn't a word?) doesn't "barely move." It increased 28.8%. The reason it looks like it barely moved is because the graph is so zoomed out. That is an improvement, and it's improving from an already excellent position (on a worldwide scale).
No and I wouldn't be okay with barely any progression between the bottom, 4th and middle.
28.8% is better than barely any. However, this doesn't have much to do with why income inequality is bad. Yes, it exists; but what's wrong with it? How does the 1% getting richer hurt me? It's not like the just lock their money in a safe and let it rot. They invest it in their businesses or in the bank, which invests it. Those investments help the economy. They can be used to start more businesses, lower prices, and hire employees. What's bad about that?
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@oromagi
@A-R-O-S-E
Welcome to the party. Now, where's Arose?
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@TheRealNihilist
Still a Christian. Simply because I wouldn't be certain that it is true doesn't mean that it isn't true. It could still have a 99.999 percent chance of being true. Not certain just means not 100 percent.
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@TheRealNihilist
No, I wouldn't be okay with that, but that's because the poor would get poorer in that situation in absolute terms, and I do have a problem with that. I would also have a problem with how slowly the poor would be getting richer. I'm fine with income inequality. I'm not fine with recession and poverty, but that's not what we see in America (at least not to that extreme).
To illustrate my point, would you be okay with an economy where everyone's income was equal at $1 a week? Of course not. There are all sorts of economic factors other than income inequality. Your question is akin to asking someone who says that an increasing GDB is good if he would be okay with a growth rate of 0.000001 percent.
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@TheRealNihilist
It wasn't specific to my religion, but it would apply to it. However, it would apply equally to your atheism. That's why it has no practical effect, because it invalidates everything equally.
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@TheRealNihilist
Yes. It just doesn't really matter. Quite frankly, I don't care how much richer the rich are than everyone else, just so long as everyone else is getting richer too.
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@TheRealNihilist
Logically, I can't be certain that it or anything else is valid. However, this whole thing about not knowing whether logic is valid is mostly just a thought experiment that has no practical effect other than being a weird type of gotcha for people who are a little too certain they're right.
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@Paul
Cutting taxes on the middle class and contributing to the collapse of ISIS are two things that come to mind. Of course, many of his policies that I think are defensible are also things you probably wouldn't like, so I'm trying to think of things you might agree with.
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@disgusted
The Taliban and Saddam Hussein's army that invaded Kuwait were anything but innocent. There is no inconsistency here.
claim they didn't know it was happening.
Who did that?
godists
Is that meant to be an insult? If so, it doesn't seem very insulting.
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@TheRealNihilist
It would apply to everything. Theism, atheism, string theory, 2+2=4, etc.
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@TheRealNihilist
Yes, but so long as the poor are getting richer too, it really doesn't matter. Jeff Bezos getting richer doesn't make anyone else poorer. Wealth is not a zero-sum game.Do you accept that the increase has been much higher for the rich so much so the divide is much higher than earlier years?
How about the logic thread you created where you didn't reply back?
Sorry about that. I forgot about it.
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@TheRealNihilist
No, I'm not ignoring you. I just haven't been at a computer.
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@disgusted
It puts the lie to thang's lie.
No, it doesn't. See the link I posted for TheRealNihilist. The poor are getting richer too.
Wingnuts are liars.
What's a wingnut?
Right wing ****eaters are oxygen thieves.
No one owns oxygen, so it's impossible to steal it. There's more than enough for everyone.
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@TheRealNihilist
Here's a link.
This article explains data from the Census Bureau. From 1967 to 2018, the real, inflation-adjusted income of the bottom 20% has increased by 28.8%.
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@ethang5
See Paul's post above. He calls them suckers.
Just because he's using insults doesn't mean anyone else should.
Counterproductive to what?
Changing people's minds.
Those were not insults
"Poor voting slave" is an insult.
I am uninterested in changing people's minds.Changed minds are just a happy serendipity of my good arguments.
Why would people join the conservative movement if we don't change their minds?
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@Paul
While I wouldn't use that language, I don't disagree with the gist of what you're saying. That's why I said his person is hard to defend. It's his policies (some of them) that are defensible.
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@ethang5
Thank you SirA. That was well said. And that is what liberals miss.
You're welcome.
But few of them travel, so they are mostly ignorant about the rest of the world.Not being producers of wealth themselves, they hate the rich, and want to take their earnings and distribute to their poor voting slaves.
I don't see how saying this kind of thing is helpful, especially the part about the "poor voting slaves." Even if you're right, it's still counterproductive. You won't change people's minds with insults.
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@Paul
There is no defending Trump.
Sure there is. I don't support him myself, but there are things about his policies that can be defended. His person, on the other hand, is a lot harder to defend.
You have to be willfully ignorant to support Trump, he's an awful president. You should start thinking for yourself instead of just believing the crap Fox News and republicans tell you to believe.
How do you know that you're not thinking for yourself and are just believing whatever CNN and the Democrats tell you? I'm not saying that this is the case and I'm really just playing Devil's advocate here, but how do you know?
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@disgusted
The top one percent of the usual income distribution holds over $25 trillion in wealth, which exceeds the wealth of the bottom 80 percent. That is more than all the goods and services produced in the U.S. economy in 2018.Jun 25, 2019
What difference does the amount of money the top 1% has make? I don't care if they have 99.9999% of the wealth in the world. It really doesn't matter how much the rich have. What matters is how much the poor have. The poor in America would be considered middle-class or rich in most other countries. Think about it this way: suppose there were 100 people in the world. The richest guy had 99.9999% of the wealth. Does that sound bad? Maybe, but it shouldn't. If that rich guy has $99 trillion in today's money, that would mean everyone else had a $1 million dollars in today's money. That's why the percentage of money some people have compared to others doesn't matter. What matters is how much the poor have in absolute terms. And if the poor are getting richer in absolute terms, which is what's happening in America, then we're headed in the right direction.
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@Greyparrot
@Discipulus_Didicit
@Speedrace
Why does AvoidDeath seem like an SK to you?
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If it's a standard 72-hour DP, it should end at 11:20 AM Monday.
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@disgusted
I support the Afghan war because our soldiers were saving Afghan lives from the Taliban. I support the first Iraq War because we saved Kuwaiti lives from the Iraqis. I don't know enough about the second Iraq war to have an opinion on it.
Notice the theme here: I am in favor of war when it can save innocent lives. You are attempting to conflate the death of the innocent with the death of the guilty. I am opposed to the death of the innocent and I oppose it consistently. You are trying to make an inconsistency where there is none.
Secondly, you think that the majority of women - and the majority is pro-life - don't oppose their own bodily autonomy. If pro-life women don't oppose women's bodily autonomy, then you are being inconsistent by saying that pro-life men do oppose women's bodily autonomy. Having different chromosomes does not change the logic of the situation.
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@WaterPhoenix
Ohhh ok. If we're not going to vtl grey then who?
Maybe oromagi for inactivity. If you've got a better idea, I'd be glad to hear it.
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