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@Kaitlyn
Do you know what environmental conditions may trigger homosexuality?
As I remember, it was thought the environment of womb might play a role. I don't remember specifics at this point.
However, if homosexuals aren't at all attracted to the opposite sex, then there is virtually no chance that in yesteryears they would have had heterosexual sex because they would not have been inclined to do so.
People have sex with individuals they aren't physically attracted to all the time thanks to things like loneliness and alcohol. Culture can help too - Patriarchy, arranged marriages, etc. Besides that, it also seems homosexual individuals can be born of perfectly straight parents.
That being said, it's strange why partial homosexuality exists to any degree. What benefits are there to be found in any degree of homosexuality, or do you suspect it was a coincidental evolutionary adaption?
Ive seen it argued homosexuality might create an excess of caretakers which could be good for ensuring the survival of young and other spreading of labor theories. I'm not sure I buy this, but it is plausible. I would tend to think if homosexuality is passed along by genes, folks with homosexual tendencies are doing enough to pass their genes through the generations.
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@Sir.Lancelot
Well, shoot. I'm super busy anyway, so I'll bow out of this round or the tournament (whatever is necessary). Let me know if I'm needed in some way.
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@TWS1405_2
ALL are choices if and when acted upon.
Thats clear as mud. Choosing to act according to one's sexual preferences and choosing sexuality are not the same thing.
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@Vegasgiants
If a person says they changed their sexuality by choice who are you to tell them they are wrong?
If someone doesn't say they changed their sexuality by choice, then who are you to tell them they are wrong? I shift the burden back to you.
Again, if you think sexuality is made by choice, tell me when you actively chose your sexuality. If you're being honest, you can't because it never happened.
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@Vegasgiants
It's not for you to decide if someone says they truly changed from straight to gay
Oh, you think 'coming out of the closet' is changing sexuality?
Lol- ok.
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@Vegasgiants
Is it possible that people change sexuality based on something other than choice?
That wasn't my question.
And millions HAVE made the choice to change their sexuality
Have they? I'm not sure to what you're referring, but I can't help but think you've overlooked bi-sexuality and the spectrum of sexuality.
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@Vegasgiants
Yet millions of peopke change their attractions throughout their lifetime
I think 'changed' is a doing a LOT of work for you. I would agree that peoples attractions can change, but I question why you deem this a choice. Would you not agree change can happen without choice playing a role?
As for the OP, if sexuality is a choice - choose a new sexuality. Let me know how choosing to be attracted to unappealing sexual partners works out for you.
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@Kaitlyn
Unless it's epigenetic and thus activates in certain conditions, how is biological deterministic homosexuality so prevalent?
It was my understanding that epigenetics plays a role, but don't quote me on that - I'm no expert and my info is old.
That being said, I think we do have to consider sexuality seems to exist on a spectrum, and a same-sex attraction doesn't disallow attraction to the opposite sex or opportunities for genes to be passed on.
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@TheMorningsStar
Tell me, what do you think grooming is? It isn't some quick process where you take a child, show them porn, and go "let's do that!" It is a slow process where you guide them step by step, normalizing each step along the way, until they end up doing sexual things.
Agreed, in principle, but the part you and so many others seem to be leaving out is that grooming is an exploitation of a relationship. It's personal.
Hell, many people that were groomed into being porn stars first step in the process was ordinary modeling.
Yes, but modeling is NOT grooming. Again, grooming is an exploitation - merely working with kids is not grooming.
The article I linked clearly shows that part of the intention is grooming (though it does not use that word and the authors likely have some cognitive dissonance in that regard).
I do not agree with your assessment of the article. You are allowing your own biases to taint your understanding of it.
Saying "they aren't being convicted" is not saying "there is no evidence
Fair enough. You are pointing to anecdotes which is certainly general evidence of how some groomers have operated in the past. What you haven't done is shown how DQSH is analogous. From what I can see, it seems you object to the material, and that's fine, but disagreeing with what's being presented doesn't make the endeavor an exercise in sexual predation.
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@TheMorningsStar
Apparently the hyperlink broke at some point. Where, in parentheses, I quoted the name of the article (Drag pedagogy: The playful practice of queer imagination in early childhood)
The article does not support the 'grooming' conclusion you're drawing. I mean, a drag performer is a co-author! 😄
If our conception of groomers were informed by who is actually being charged sex crimes against childrenI do not see how that follows.
I think it's valid those charged with sex crimes against children are very likely to be groomers. Plus, there is data to support this.
Grooming often doesn't result in criminal prosecution.
Okay. What percentage of groomers are never charged? What percentage of those are drag queens? You're saying a particular group of individuals is guilty of priming kids for sexual contact while also admitting your have no evidence to support that. Suffice to say, I find that less than persuasive.
Since joining DART, however, it just seems like you have grown more dogmatic when it comes to certain political issues
If you say so. I don't consider myself to be dogmatic. I'm as open to having my mind changed as I ever was. If you show me I'm wrong about something, I will change my view.
If it came off as an attempted ad hominem, then I apologize, as that was not my intention.
Apology accepted.
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@TheMorningsStar
As for grooming? A perusal of recent sex offenders isn't likely to include a drag queen as lawyer Kristen Prata Browe has shown. Link I think her most recent vids are from March, but the point stands.This is why multiple drag queens that do reading at Drag Queen Story Hour have been found to been convicted pedophiles, that we see some stories of Drag Queens (like Anastasia Diamond) have recently been found with child porn, oh, and most importantly, the exact points I made about both child drag shows (even giving an example) where you can find them acting no different than some strippers and the article that outlines the purpose of Drag Queen Story Hour that implicitly admits that it is about grooming (an article I even linked).
First, there was no link in the post I responded to. (#10). Secondly, a drag performer being a sex offender doesn't disprove the fact that drag queens arent very likely to be sex offenders. If our conception of groomers were informed by who is actually being charged sex crimes against children then we would need to be much more concerned about politicians and religious leaders. Clearly, "drag queens are groomers!" isn't based on who harms children the most (or even close to it). This raises the question of why they are being targeted.
I mean, come on man, you were so much better at objectively addressing points, even from people you disagreed with, and constructing sound arguments in political discussions back on DDO. What happened in the last few years?
One thing I have consistently done is attack arguments rather than people. Attacking the person is a sure sign of a weak argument, imo.
That being said, I decide what and how I address an argument as well as how much of my bandwidth should be devoted to it. I don't have a lot of bandwidth for this topic. It is a tangent from a more important discussion that I am still forming opinions on.
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@TheMorningsStar
I also think that drag is inherently sexual, and that there very much is a grooming aspect.
Counter: Bugs Bunny in drag is inherently sexual? I don't think so. Could it be that this has more to do with women being perceived as inherently sexual carrying over to anything/anyone presenting as feminine? If so, it's a perception issue rather than a presentation issue.
As for grooming? A perusal of recent sex offenders isn't likely to include a drag queen as lawyer Kristen Prata Browe has shown. Link I think her most recent vids are from March, but the point stands.
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@Best.Korea
"Homosexual" was translated into the Bible for the first time in 1946 in the RSV translation. OP has it backwards: biblical demonization of homosexuality is a new phenomena rather than a tradition thousands of years old.
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@Sir.Lancelot
There must be a separation of religion and state in all aspects of governance. (20 points. Max Time - 2 weeks.)
Pro
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@DavidAZ
school-mandated prayers
Which isn't the same thing as prayer in schools. Prayer in school is fine.
Evolutionary theory is a lie
You're welcome to your opinion, but the evidence supports evolution better than any alternative. That's why it is taught in schools.
Human sexuality is wrong outside a marriage
Just FYI, sexuality is the capacity for sexual feelings, not necessarily sex itself. It's necessary for relationships (like marriage), core part of being human, and why it should be taught in schools.
"Accurate" history is whatever the makers want it to say (racist).
Accurate history is motivations, intentions, and what actually happened as best we can tell. Inaccurate history is teaching things known to be incorrect according to evidence and expertise. The latter is happening and conservatives have played an outsized role: Texas.
If we are idiots, do we not have the right to be fools? Why demand it on us?
Actually, I'm not worried about you. If you want to be an idiot that's your prerogative, but I am concerned about the next generation. Knowledge is power and restricting it is like restricting food and water: it limits a child's potential.
And from seeing your posts assaulting the conservative way of life, yeah, civil war will come when you guys push too far.
Right, because I'm completely out of line and not that you are overly sensitive to anything resembling criticism.
Be careful what you wish for. You're writing checks your children or grandchildren will have to pay.
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@Greyparrot
You don't mind civil war as long as your side wins. Admit it.
I do mind a civil war. I don't care about being wrong. But, I also I can't help if someone's sacred beliefs run aground on reality. That's not a problem I have a lot of control over.
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@DavidAZ
You removed prayer and the bible from public schools
No such thing has occurred. Holy books and prayer are not prohibited from schools. You've never actually thought about this narrative you've been fed, huh? I can't say much I guess...I did the same for a long time.
demanding religious separation since it would demand one's morality to be swayed, but now our children are being feed a bunch of moral junk under the guise of "inclusion".
Religious freedom is hindered by a government advocating religious views. Religious freedom and religious privilege are not the same thing, friend.
live and let live
Live and let live so long as you don't have to hear about it, eh?
The truth hurts.and then treat us as if we are children, needing the left's ideas to help nanny us "deplorables".
Listen, I'm just saying that someone rejecting evolutionary theory, a more complete understanding of human sexuality, or accurate history is going to inevitably qualify for one or more of the categories your complained about: uneducated, bigot, or racist.
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@Greyparrot
So civil war.
You're entitled to your opinion. I'm optimistic though.
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@DavidAZ
The fact that the left pushed issues such as abortion, gay marriage, trans-gender rights, evolution in schools, etc etc, makes the left the instigator. We never wanted any of these things and yet the left shoved it down our throats through legislation and if we spoke up about it, we were bigots or racist or uneducated or didn't believe in some sort of made up science.
The truth hurts.
We always said "to each his own" on all these issues but now my children will be taught that it's okay to be gay in a pubic school. Tell me how this is not instigating your views to my children?
Its not "my views". It is a better and more complete understanding of human nature. Isn't it the right that like to say 'facts don't care about feelings'?
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@Greyparrot
What would be "appropriately antagonizing?"Accountability and equality are met with hostility by abusers and oppressors. Do you believe calling out abuse and pushing for inclusivity is 'throwing gas on the fire'?
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@DavidAZ
You're making excuses for extremists. It wasn't the left that allowed abuses of power to sidestep accountability. It wasn't the left that instigated an attack on the Capitol building in an effort to overturn election. It isn't the left pushing legislation at national and state level seeking to limit religious liberty, voting rights, reproductive freedom, Etc. Etc. Etc.
If the choice is tolerate the intolerable or fight, then yah, there's going to be a fight. I still see reason for optimism though. Culture wars can only distract from so much. Cooler heads will prevail methinks. The last few elections have not gone according to historical trends, and I think this hints people are waking up to what's going on around them.
If the choice is tolerate the intolerable or fight, then yah, there's going to be a fight. I still see reason for optimism though. Culture wars can only distract from so much. Cooler heads will prevail methinks. The last few elections have not gone according to historical trends, and I think this hints people are waking up to what's going on around them.
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@Greyparrot
Civil war.
That doesn't answer the question. How has the left been inappropriately antagonizing the right?
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@Greyparrot
It always takes 2 to tango. They are kinda adding gas to the fire sometimes.
I'm curious what you deem 'gas to the fire'?
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@DavidAZ
America is becoming very extreme on both sides.
Meh. One side has definitely crossed the line. The 'other side' shouldn't be part of this conversation.
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@TWS1405_2
Oh really! Then why are there over 80M unwanted and orphaned children the world over?Killing Roe V Wade will only add to that number.
You're a very angry pedant, aren't you?
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@Greyparrot
Civil war? No - not yet anyway. This highlights Republican (extremists) disconnect from reality. The next election will (hopefully) reveal this as a campaign against thenselves.
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@prefix
Why do "we all pay"? If there is a child, then there is a mother and a father. The father needs to pay. If not, there needs be legal remedies. "You do the deed, you fill the need
Like it or not, the child is one of us regardless of what issues mom and dad are afflicted by. We take care of our own.
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@Critical-Tim
There are many things that help create uniformity and stability within a society, including happiness, wellbeing, justice/fairness, and human rights. I believe that one of these sticks out from the rest and that would be happiness
Agree.
It seems correct to assume that when people promote human rights and wellbeing for others that they are not directly trying to promote human rights and wellbeing but rather what those cultivate and that being happiness seems that the ultimate goal to achieve is happiness for all individuals.
I would agree, but I would point out well-being and human rights are recognized as necessary for happiness and not just tools to achieve happiness. Without well-being and basic rights happiness is limited and humanity is diminished.
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@n8nrgim
i know a lot of liberals on here support twitter banning conservatives. do you also support those who ban books? if you oppose them banning books, why do you not also oppose twitter banning conservatives?
When someone starts banning conservatives from a place they have a right to be (and not just a privilege) I'll be on their side. Until then, I'll laugh at the ignorant complaints.
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@Critical-Tim
I believe you're confused, I never once claimed to hold a belief of which you are speaking.
It certainly seemed you were advocating killing one person to save 99 with explicit words to that effect. My mistake.
I'm asking a question, not giving an answer. Would you walk me down your train of thought? What are Morals intended purpose, and why do they not correlate with The Greater Good?
I've answered these questions.
I was telling you what The Greater Good is relative to Morality by explaining their differences. I'm asking why they don't match and why do we have them.
The 'greater good' is a phrase associated with a particular moral theory: utilitarianism. Within that moral theory, the greater good and morality are the same. If you have a different moral perspective, then the greater good might have no relevance. The answer to your question depends on your moral viewpoint.
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Not exceptions. Killing that prevents killing upholds the "thou shall not kill", it is not an exception to it.
Uh huh. Sure. 😂
I think we gotten far enough into the weeds that we've circled back to where we started - this is where we part ways. Thanks for the discussion!
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@Critical-Tim
We are far apart on this. You are essentially arguing against consent and self ownership. I just can't follow you down that path.
Self-ownership cannot be undermined without calling into question every human right. The short term and local benefit does not, and cannot, outweigh the damage this would cause to the societal infrastructure.
Self-ownership cannot be undermined without calling into question every human right. The short term and local benefit does not, and cannot, outweigh the damage this would cause to the societal infrastructure.
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A world with consistent laws does not necessarily require a creator - reasonable or otherwise.The argument was about reasonable vs. unreasonable creator, not about creator vs. no creator.
"A world with consistent laws does not require a creator" undermines you're explanation for why a creator must be reasonable.
Sure there is. The absence of expected evidence for X is good reason not to accept the existence of X.If there is a good reason to accept the existence of God, then God should be accepted.
Thats not what I said. I do not have good reason to accept the existence of a creator.
Not to run down a rabbit hole, but I was simply trying to correct your misapprehension of atheism - it's not a competing claim to theism, but a null position.
Atheism is not about belief on little or no evidence - it's about not believing because thats what the evidence supports.As explained, there is no evidence that supports the lack of belief in God.
And there doesn't have to be - that's the point. There needs to be evidence for belief. There does not need to be evidence for non belief. Atheism is the latter.
Your position implied that there is immoral God who prefers atheists who mock him. God who has no human preferences is possible, but God who has some human preferences is also possible.
Possible is not a stable foundation. It's speculation, and I see no reason to entertain it. There is no legitimate "therefore" when youre multiple layers into imagination.
You are dodging the question, but I will assume that you would prefer to obey God who is moral, given that there is 50/50 chance of God being moral or immoral.
What was the question? I choose to do the right thing. That does not mean do what someone else tells me. It does not mean follow a bad example of morality either.
My point was simply that the deity you're holding up as the standard of morality is not moral. That throws the whole thought experiment askew.
Christian God is obviously moral. It is moral to ban killing. Christian God banned killing.
...and then proceeded to condone and participate in exceptions. I question the moral label you're trying to attach to this deity. I don't believe you have fully integrated the Bible into your god-concept.
Killing is good if it results in saving lives. Killing done by God of the Bible resulted in saving lives. Killing done by God of the Bible is good.
If God is moral because he banned killing, then violating that rule makes him immoral. You can't have it both ways.
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@Critical-Tim
Not all people agree that it is justifiable to sacrifice one person to save 99 if they are innocent.
And neither would I. I don't think killing an unwilling participant (guilty or innocent) to help any number of people is actually for the greater good. Granted, you may directly help 99 people, but you will terrify many many more which stands to cause a destabilization of society.
An excellent example was given by Best.Korea in my previous response. It would be beneficial more beneficial to the world to take criminals who deserve to be punished or executed and harvest their organs for innocent lives that could be saved, but this is considered immoral in our current society.
I don't think that act would be more beneficial to society for the same reason I listed above.
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@Best.Korea
Can we say that unreasonable God is as likely as reasonable God? Because our world has consistent laws which imply that if it is created by God, it is created by reasonable God.
A world with consistent laws does not necessarily require a creator - reasonable or otherwise.
There is no logical reason to think atheism is a correct path.
Sure there is. The absence of expected evidence for X is good reason not to accept the existence of X.
There is no logical reason for reasonable God to reward those who thought something for no logical reason.
Atheism is not about belief on little or no evidence - it's about not believing because thats what the evidence supports. Believers is what you're describing.
Can we say that immoral God is as likely to exist as moral God?
Sure. I would prefer "unlikely", but I won't quibble.
Even immoral God would like to be praised,
I don't know what you're basing this claim on. I think you're dubiously assuming an unnatural being would have human preferences and desires.
Which would you choose: immorality or morality?If your answer is morality, then you cannot please an immoral God, but only a moral God.
Just to be clear, you're holding up as an example of a 'moral god' a being that is thought to require human sacrifice (of his son) and cannibalism as a pathway to heaven for humans? ...the same one that prescribes infinite torture for finite wrongdoing?
If that is "moral", there's a fair chance different moral standards result in something more sensical and less cruel.
Christian morality is the morality which would be supported by moral God. Moral God would be against killing. Christian morality is against killing. The rest of morality relates to that.
The Bible shows plenty of example of the Christian deity condoning or participating in killing (murder). Again, if that is your standard of morality, falling short of it is not all bad.
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@Best.Korea
First, if there was a God who rewarded atheists and punished Christians, such God would have to be immoral since most of Christians have similar or better morality than what atheists have.
This doesn't make such a god more or less likely than the Christian deity. Assuming the existence of gods for the sake of argument, how does OP know gods are moral?
Second, the greatest religions on Earth are against atheism.
Again, this doesn't make the atheist loving God less likely. popularity=/=true
Option 3) is more likely than option 2), since moral and reasonable God is more likely than immoral and unreasonable God who prefers atheism.
We've seen nothing substantive to show a god must be moral or reasonable. Plus, theres a huge elephant in the room being ignored here: the Christian deity doesn't meet this standard either.
However, if a person is an atheist, it does increase his chances of being immoral.
Not being a Christian increases the odds of not following Christian morality, which isn't the same thing as being immoral.
The conclusion is a non-sequitor.
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@Critical-Tim
What is the intended purpose of morality?
To allow groups of people to co-exist.
We acknowledge that morality is beneficial to society, but are there advantages to a lack of morality?
I tend to think morality provides a net-benefit to society. An absence of it would be the opposite - it would be harmful.
How does The Greater Good align with morality?
I'd say they go hand in hand.
Why is The Greater Good not always considered moral if it is the greater good?
Maybe because we can't actually know what is best for the greater good in given situations. I don't know.
Why are some things considered immoral, but as a whole more beneficial to the world?
What things are those?
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@FLRW
Rieka once said that the original taxis were all yellow so now all cars that are yellow are taxis.
😆
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@Rieka
To be clear, I'm not denying conservative democrats were responsible for the KKK. I'm not denying conservative Democrats were responsible for segregation. What I'm pointing out is that if those democrats were transported to today - they would be Republicans. 😄
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@Greyparrot
Don't be so sure there are no people in the Democrat party more competent than old Joe.
I doubt Biden is the most competent Democrat for president. However, you know as well as I that the 'most competent' and 'nominee for president' rarely go together in either party.
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@Rieka
I don't see how it's gaslighting or any form of manipulation if it's the truth. It's history, not things I'm making up.
Blaming modern liberals for the actions of old school conservatives is textbook gaslighting.
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@Greyparrot
Lol, they're will be no sacrifices here. I'm sure Biden will weather this drizzle of a storm just fine.
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@Rieka
While I understand since then both parties are not/not as associated with their former politics, I was debating with IWantRooseveltAgain about how the Democrats are the most racist political party due to their history, not what their politics and morals are now.
Party labels don't tell the true story. This notion that "Democrats are the most racist" is a superb bit of gaslighting. That being said, if youre goal is winning at the expense of truth, carry on. I'll leave you to it. 🫤
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@Greyparrot
I'm not running down the rabbit hole on this one. It's all predictable. Someone pulls a stunt at the WH. The president scolds. Debate ensues on who was in the wrong. Long story short: transwoman was in the wrong, but won't be seriously punished (as is correct) and will gain popularity. We may look back on this day and realize this was the catalyst for transfolks being fully accepted into all parts of society since they, like everyone else, can do stupid shit. 😄
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@Rieka
You need to pay a little closer attention to your history. The party labels and political ideologies don't go together like they used to. 😉
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@Greyparrot
The point is the snake eating its tail as Biden cites "rules of decorum"
That's what I would expect any president to say if someone starts getting naked in WH public areas. You're welcome to believe it's some sort of partisan breakdown if you like, but I just don't see it. 🤷♂️
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@Rieka
I understand this, but in terms of racism, the Democratic party has been far more racist than the Republican party ever has been. I do recognize both parties have changed ideals in terms of opinion on political matters, but the Democrats have had a far more vicious past regarding racism.
You're focusing on the shifting sands rather than the bedrock truth: conservatives are responsible for the KKK and Segregation.
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@Greyparrot
I find this fascinating. I mean, conservatives tend to poopoo the distinction between transwoman and man yet we have multiple people here offended because a "NOT A WOMAN!" took off her shirt. Lol!
I would guess that was the point.
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@Savant
I'm saying that these opinions are relevant because the owner tends to care about what the userbase wants.
I'm part of that user base too, and I'm making my preferences known. 😏
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