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@Best.Korea
I'll provide a logical argument once OP does. 😏
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@Best.Korea
So unless you can prove to me that you and your atheism actually exist, the only logical thing to do is to believe in God since I know that he exists as I can feel him talking to me.
That's me talking to you. You are never alone, my child. 😏
I'd say this is a 3 out of 10 as far as shitposts go. It's pretty low effort.
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@Best.Korea
I think we can agree on this:
1) Christian sects which perform exorcisms don't think they are fake.
2) exorcisms often involve(d) the mentally ill.
3) exorcisms do not cure mental illness.
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@TWS1405_2
Do Christian sects which perform exorcisms believe possession is real? Yes. Is possession real? Probably not.
Back when I was a committed believer, I assisted in an exorcism. I saw nothing supernatural. I've seen no good reason to think this isn't the norm or that there is anything beyond the natural world.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Our morality is somewhat centered on what keeps the population together (ie. Cooperation, empathy, compassion) , but definitely not perfectly so.Our moral conscience is. The choices we make based on that conscience isn't.
You can continue to assert that, but it's not something you can show to be true.
Acting morally and having a moral conscience are two different things.
Moral conscience (mind?) or not, animals act in ways that if it were humans you would recognize unquestionably as moral acts.
If you tell a dog to give you the stick back, and it growls at you, is it "sinning?"
If I tell you to give the stick back and you growl at me, is it sinning? As I understand "sin", neither scenario qualifies.
So, you think that morality is evolutionary?
I think the origins of morality come from evolution, but let's not discount the role minds have played in broadening our understanding it. There was a time slavery was considered morally acceptable, but we know better now.
If a group of cavemen decided, oh if we act this way, things work out better for us, that's not them discovering morality, that is just them acting on it. The morality was always there.
That is unclear to me. How does morality predate social beings?
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@YouFound_Lxam
There are subjectively good things, and subjectively bad things, yes?Now my question is how do we know that murder is actually bad? Why is insulting someone actually bad? Why does insulting someone hurt their feelings, and not boost it? Why are we as humans wired that way?Isn't it crazy how all humans are wired in a way, where all of our moral conscience, moral instinct if you will, is lined up almost to perfection?
As previously discussed, our moral conscience isn't lined up to perfection. Our morality is somewhat centered on what keeps the population together (ie. Cooperation, empathy, compassion) , but definitely not perfectly so.
If this was the case you would have to argue that morality is evolutionary, but I don't see any animals enacting any moral law into their everyday lives.
You need to broaden your horizons. Their are tons of examples of other social species consistently acting in seemingly moral ways. Link
And there could be more answers I'm open to new ideas, but the answer I think fits best and explains it the most, is something wired us this way, unnaturally.
Observations of animal morality argue against that.
My question basically asks, why are good things good, and bad things bad.
Because our species realized long ago that living with others has advantages over survival alone thus maintaining the group is beneficial to the individual. Morality isn't personal. Good things are what help maintain social cohesion. Bad things don't.
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@Sidewalker
will of God is justsubjectivism on a cosmic scale, it isn't objectivism.
Well said.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Who or what chose what was good and what was bad? Where do you get your moral conscience from?
Why do you think someone or something (arbitrarily?) *chose* good and bad? I don't think that.
I think individuals who didn't conform to what we now consider good and bad (ie. were harmful to the population in someway) were outcast from primitive societies. Essentially, primitive populations defined good and bad through their actions over time (regarding individuals detrimental to the cohesion of society) rather than their conscious decisions. Our conscience, which is part nature and and part nurture, is reliant on this legacy.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Yes, and you're saying that you don't think morality is objective.
Or am I?
I'm open to morality being objective. What I object to is objective morality needing a divine authority. The absence of a divine basis doesn't necessarily make morality subjective. If that's what you believe, we can address that.
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@Sidewalker
you can’t speak of what we “ought to do” without including humanity in the definition of objective.
Agreed.
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@Sir.Lancelot
Lol, no. I haven't read your arguments in the debate though, so there's still hope! 😄
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@Sidewalker
I see no reason to think Morality is any less objectively real than mathematics.
I thought I had responded to you already. Apologies.
While I agree with your statement, I wonder why is mathematics considered objective? It would not and could not exist without a mind. You seem to have a good grasp of this distinction, so maybe you can explain it to me! 🙂
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@hey-yo
Objective means external from the individual or existing independent from human opinions or perceptions (or in spite of them). This doesn't disallows change in any way.
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@YouFound_Lxam
What does this have to do with objective morality? It seems you went off the rails.Morality mean right and wrong..............not the exact definition but you get it.
Yes, I get what you're saying, but the point I'm making is regarding objective morality.
There are subjectively wrong things.There are subjectively right things.
Subjectivity is the opposite of objectivity. I don't have any issue with your statement except that it doesn't address the subject of objective morality -at least, not in a way I understand. Please clarify or we can drop this part of the conversation.
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@YouFound_Lxam
What I am saying, is that every human being has a moral conscience, that a lines with everyone else's.
Except it has been established that is not true. Ie. Sociopathy, mental issues, etc.
There are subjectively wrong things.There are subjectively right things.
What does this have to do with objective morality? It seems you went off the rails.
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@hey-yo
The claim looks at how morality may exist without God and comes to the conclusion that everything that would influence morality (i.e. science, evolution, sympathy, etc.) can change and/or does change - making morality subjective because morality never needs to stay the same.
This is a non-sequitor. Something can be mutable AND objective. Eg. Objective reality
What do you think would demonstrate the sentence (morality can not exist without God) as true?
I don't know. Do you?
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@Best.Korea
Sure. It is fairly common for Communion to be blessed. The wine is just alcoholic water. If you're Baptist (and probably a few other denominations) the grape juice is flavored water. Also, anytime a meal is blessed, wouldn't that include the drinks already at the table?
Water is regularly blessed and consumed.
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@Elliott
Depends what you mean by safest and best, as many European countries are secular and without a majority belief in God.
It also depends on what you mean by Christian countries. There is too much wiggle room in this statement to warrant a serious response.
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@cristo71
I like Matt Dillahunty’s take on it: the foundation of a moral code is subjective, but what proceeds from that foundation can be objective.
Yes, I agree. That description fits reality as I understand it. I don't think he qualifies that as objective morality though.
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@Best.Korea
You've neglected to address my refutation and argumentation. Feel free to try again. Link Otherwise, I have no time to waste on dishonest tactics and/or interlocutors.
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@YouFound_Lxam
They are humans born with a mental disorder. They are not normal humans.
Mental issues are part of the human condition. 20% of humanity has mental issues every year.
A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it's weak
If by "basic moral conscience" you mean the conscience of a sociopath, then...uh...sure. This isn't doing a lot to support your conclusion though. Nor does it explain how a *normal* person's right and wrong are objective.
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@YouFound_Lxam
I'm not talking about mental illnesses. I'm talking about all humans as a whole. Normal everyday humans.
Sociopaths are normal everyday humans. You don't get to discount ~4.5% of the population because they break your argument.
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@Sir.Lancelot
I'm open to the possibility. Just be aware, I will need long argument times due to my work schedule. I would prefer a week per inning.
That being said, what proposition did you have in mind?
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@Best.Korea
Its the best standard that increases life, ensures survival and makes best societies in the world.
I don't think the standard you prefer does that. At best, it might do that for those who think like you. However, the fact that your standard assumes an 'us vs. them' means it is divisive and literally the opposite of what is required of morality. Eg. If it causes humans to NOT get along, it's not morality.
Unless of course you prefer murders, rape, depression, suicides and abortions. Do you prefer murders, rape, depression, suicides and abortions?
First, humanity existed and flourished long before the god of the Bible was 'revealed'. Secondly, its almost like you've never read the Bible. The Bible contains plenty of god-condoned murder, rape, and even abortion. So, humanity can and has functioned without your holy book, AND your holy book is not absent these things. That's a horrible point you made there.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Yes, all humans are born with the basic moral conscience.
I guess you've never heard of sociopaths?
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@Best.Korea
Also, the atheists have terrible morality.
It depends on what standard you're using. By a particular subjective understanding of 'what God wants', I'm sure atheists have terrible morality. That being said, why should we use that particular standard besides you personally finding it meaningful?
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@FLRW
It's actually. with divine authority, you cannot have objective morality.
Did you mean to say objective morality and divine authority do not go together?
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@Elliott
Would you say morality is subjective, objective, or some type of hybrid?
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@YouFound_Lxam
All humans agree on a basic moral belief. All humans share the same basic moral conscience.
Except *all* humans don't. If the premises of your argument are built from absolute descriptions (which are demonstrably false), your conclusion can't possibly be true.
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@Sir.Lancelot
100% true!
Not an argument. Since you were the person I quoted, I was hoping for more from you. 🙂
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Without divine authority, you cannot have objective morality.
I'm not convinced that is true. I'm also not convinced morality need be objective to function. Convince me.
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@Sir.Lancelot
Without divine authority, you cannot have objective morality.
I'm not convinced that is true. I'm also not convinced morality need be objective to function.
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@YouFound_Lxam
I believe that the LGBT community and ideology is not healthy for society
You might as well be saying 'the blue-eyed community and ideology is not healthy for society'. Just because something runs contrary to your ideology doesn't mean it is a competing ideology or detrimental to society.
An ideology that goes against science,
LGBTQ isnt against science anymore than heterosexuality is.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
You say it like it's an error on my part.
Not at all! You've made it so you can't be wrong. 'Trump is innocent and he might be convicted.' Brilliant.
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@Savant
Indictment is basically just impeachment in likelihood of leading to jail time. I don't know why these people keep getting excited about it.
I would tend to agree. I think some folks are overly excited. Indictment is not the same thing as conviction. Trump still has to be shown guilty.
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@Greyparrot
I think the rule of law works in principle. I don't think it is perfect. Besides, my view of jurisprudence has nothing to do with John Edwards' legal path. That's a non sequitor.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Lol, you believe trump is innocent while also making excuses for why he might be found guilty.
I think you've covered all the bases there! 😆
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@Greyparrot
So you're willing to risk Trump as the next president to preserve the rule of law?
I don't see a huge risk in Trump being the next president...
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@Greyparrot
How important is it for you to never have to worry about Trump again
I don't worry about Trump. It is simply a matter of cause and effect. If he (or anyone) committed a crime (which it appears he did), then he (or anyone) should face the consequences.
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@Greyparrot
I grant there are quite a few government representatives that deserve something similar, but there is also a long list of defendants and convicts already. Trump is not being held to a higher standard - just the same one as you and me.
That's how it should be.
That's how it should be.
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@Greyparrot
What direction?
Accountability. I'd rather not have the precedent be presidents are above the rule of law. As for making Trump immortal? Imo, his contributions to the polarization of this nation have peaked. Acountability is the wake-up call and/or salve this nation needs to counter the damage already done.
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@Best.Korea
Atheists would sooner support Stalin than admit how Christianity is beneficial for society.
Here in the US where Christianity has been weaponized it easy to question it's benefit to society.
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@Intelligence_06
To be fair, there shouldn't be a debating limit before ratedness at all.
This.
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@Best.Korea
In the ancient times and according to the Bible
You've mistaken me for someone who finds the Bible relevant to this conversation.
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@YouFound_Lxam
Sex is binary, because you can either have the ability to:A. Bear a child.B. Impregnant.
People who can do neither aren't male or female? Listen, I get what you're trying to say, but I've already provided an example of people with male chromosomes and a uterus. That alone throws a wrench in your black and white conception of sex.
It seems clear we're not going to change each other's minds, so let me take this opportunity to thank you for the discussion and bow out.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
It seems you've traded debate for personal attacks. I'm not interested in that type of discussion, friend.
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