Total posts: 1,740
Posted in:
-->
@Buddamoose
CNN is now suing. I think they have a case.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
I love my country for many reasons, one being, it's the greatest.
Duly noted.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Plisken
I think you've not understood me correctly. By autonomy, I mean "Freedom from external control or influence; independence", and by aspirational, I mean something not realized. If abortion were disallowed, humans rights would be something merely desired by women.
I think parents play the role of a governing body until children are mature enough to fall under state jurisdiction. Just as the state can take away your rights for fucking up,
so can your parents! 😂
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Plisken
I don't see abortion being an issue. Those that do require human rights to be merely an aspiration to nearly half of the human population.
You can't say 'bodily autonomy is a right' and then give a list of exceptions to it. It is either a right for everyone all the time or it is not a right. Furthermore, if a person doesn't have property right on their own body, then all rights are meaningless. Simple as.
Created:
Posted in:
What does this have to do with this thread or anything I've said? It seems you're running off on a tangent.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@keithprosser
I think we humans are very bad at estimating risks and dangers. Cows kill a lot more people than sharks do.The safest time to fly was probably right after 9-11 when security personel etc were super-motivated, but people waited, and thing went back to more or less just going throught the motions.I bet every one of us does something (smoke, drink, drive a car)that is far more likely to kill us that a mass shooter is.
You're absolutely correct, but the thing is, we dont need to estimate these risks.
Created:
Posted in:
What cultures are acceptable in your opinion, it is it more an opinion of what cultures are not acceptable?Ones where women are not cattle and body parts are not lopped off for blasphemy.
So, places like Saudi Arabia (one of our allies) is unacceptable?
What is an acceptable number from your view?100
Funny.
How would you like to screen them beyond what we already do?I would like to remove the terrorists before importing them.
That doesn't answer the question. I really want to know how you think that can be acheived.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Plisken
I am for human rights from the moment of birth.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Buddamoose
I believe he is correct if we consider the connotatons of each. Nationalism is "my country is the greatest!", suggesting it can do no wrong; whereas Pariotism is "I love my country!", suggesting a willingness to work for it (and make it better).
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@disgusted
It is very disturbing, D.
If dignity for people is not extended to all, then priviledge exists where we pretend human rights do.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ethang5
Can we not have immigration without importing people with cultures alien to western civilization?
What cultures are acceptable in your opinion, it is it more an opinion of what cultures are not acceptable?
Why do we have to import so many?
What is an acceptable number from your view?
Why should we not screen them?
How would you like to screen them beyond what we already do?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ethang5
The reason is that idiot liberals keep shipping in busloads of terrorists who then either kill citizens, radicalize them into terrorists, or anger them into extreme opposition.There is no reason to import 3rd world killers into the country, and certainly not in such numbers. The blood is squarely on the hands of the morons who think several hundred civilian deaths are worth the wonderfulness of having Aikmed molest our young women in America.
How do you see America avoiding these things? Closing the borders and isolating ourselves from the world?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@keithprosser
i've never seen the difference between not believing in gods and believing there are no gods. Is it possible to do one but not the other?
I've got a jar of jellybeans here, do you believe there is an even number of jellybeans? The answer "no" is not equivalent to believing there is an odd number of jellybeans.
It is the same with claims of god, if you don't believe the claims you do not suddenly believe the opposite.
Created:
-->
@janesix
I am concerned with the negative effects religious thinking can and does bring to society. Global warming mitigation, women's reproductive rights, education, medical breakthroughs etc., have all been hindered by religious thinking.
It makes sense to bring critical attention to what harms us.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
I am familiar with it, but I'm not convinced it is a problem. If it is, then I'm not convinced any view has a legitimate answer.I puzzle how you build morality on biology (what is) and get objective values (what ought to be). Are you aware of Hume's is to ought problem?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
In that case, you are allowing your understanding of a particular subject to interfere with your understanding of logic. The laws of logic work the same regardless of the subject (provided it is not self-contradictory). - in response to this post.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
I think people have a right to control their own bodies to an extent,There are no part-time rights.So can I use my body as a deadly weapon to kill another person, or should I control the use of it?
I answered that question in our debate.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@keithprosser
On one side we have well-meaning individuals overly concerned by mass shooting (given the actual threat to society) and on the other side we have well meaning-individuals overly concerned about a wall for nothing more than a sense of protection (planes fly right over it).
Imagine what we could do if we spent all that time and energy addressing heart-disease (the #1 killer of Americans), diabetes, or depression.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ethang5
My point was about being too fearful. The words are all there for anyone who wants to understand.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ethang5
I'm fearful we as an electorate too often fear minimally dangerous things exaggerated and discount serious threats completely.Your attempt to hide behind humor implies you are one of those individuals who are fearful.
p.s. if you don't hit the reply button, I don't get a notification!
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Plisken
...does anyone think morality exists independent of conscious beings?One might generally refer to that as objective morality.
Our biology is an object and morality built on it yields objective values, thus we have an objective morality dependent on conscious beings. So, it very much can be that an objective morality ceases to be without our biology, no?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@keithprosser
Quite. But if a 'concept of god' can exist without god existing surely the 'concept of morality' can exist without morality existing!
Yes, of course, but does anyone think morality exists independent of conscious beings?
I am not familiar with it.I should ask if you know/accept the standard arguments about the unreality of colour and if you see the relevance of that question!
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@keithprosser
I think good and evil exists as concepts (much like gods). If humanity goes away then so do our concepts. So, I agree there is no evil/good in the universe discounting conscious beings.
Where we diverge (I think) is that I see our evolutionary heritage as (possibly) a foundation from which our morality is formed, and so, morality is not purely preference but at least partially, built in. I've seen you give a nod to evolution hard wiring us this way, so why are we in different places on morality?!
It seems I always find myself watching the discussion regarding nihilism not really identifying with either side. What is the purpose of labeling yourself a moral nihilist - what do you think this means to your audience?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@keithprosser
I dont think your being inconsistent, but I admit, I don't understand your view completely.I'm willing to throw it open for people to say if I am being inconsistent and/or irrational.
Created:
-->
@Goldtop
Storing energy isn't the issue, its the going from 2 weeks of intense heat to 2 weeks of intense cold and dark. The facilities would have to take all that into consideration regarding the building materials being used that could handle these changes."I think they can. A similar issue would be present for Mars. Martian nights are cold.
Building underground would solve much of this, I believe.
Edit: sorry this was meant for Alec!
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Castin
I agree, Castin.
It seems the right and the left each have their own agenda each time something like this happens and are unwilling to let the chips fall where they may in a serious evaluation.
I'm tired of the games...its time for our government to be occupied by individuals who are not quite so fearful.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@ethang5
It has nothing to do with God being driven out of society.
Ok, everyone, let's put our thoughts and prayers to work on this receding god problem! They haven't been working anywhere else! 😆😆😆
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
For there to be a logical contradiction, these views would need to exist in the same person at the same time. It makes no difference if the subject is ice cream or moral views.Not necessarily so. For there to be a logical contradiction the moral view on the same subjectwould have to contradict. Liking ice-cream and liking to torture innocent human beings for fun are different categories.
The law of non-contradiction applies to all logical categories. You can pluck ice cream out of the example and insert moral view X and the analogy is still applicable. I'm not sure I understand what you are even objecting to. We should easily agree on this.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
There are no part-time rights.I think people have a right to control their own bodies to an extent,
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
A rhetorical question is a useful tool for provoking thought, but it like all tools can be abused. Ultimately, a question is not an argument, its garnish - and a plate of garnish leaves one unsatiated.
I say this after responding to your round 3 arguments in our debate on abortion. You had ~ 41 questions, if I remember correctly. It's a crutch you rely on too heavily upon, imo.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
If I think people have a right to control their own body and you think people do not have a right to control their own body (at the same time) there is no logical contradiction.
For there to be a logical contradiction, these views would need to exist in the same person at the same time. It makes no difference if the subject is ice cream or moral views.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
I can hate chocolate and you can love it (at the same time) and there is no logical contradiction.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
This is an honest question. You are looking for my answer and not trying to build your own into the question.What is a dishonest question?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
Not that I agree with Keith's views, but there is no logical contradiction with something being viewed as good and bad by different people at the same time.If something is bad then it must be bad. It can't be bad and not bad depending on who believes it (at the same time and in regards to the same thing). That is ILLOGICAL.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
So long as you ask honest questions and attempt to understand my answers before you respond (I will do the same), we are in agreement.
...and just so you know, our debate on abortion has priority, so this will take a back burner as needed.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
I agree one of those options is likely.If I can't persuade you with logic and reason then either my system of thought is not reasonable and logical, I can't express it as such, or you are not a reasonable and logical person.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
I have no interest in playing devils advocate again.After our abortion debate would you like to debate the subject of prophecy again?
If there is no absolute, objective, unchanging source then you can't say your opinion is objective or even good. All you can say is you like it.
That's false. Within the context of chess and winning being a desirable goal, a move which contributes to a loss is bad. For instance, if the white king is checkmated two moves after the white queen is sacrificed for a pawn, then that exchange was objectively bad. Simple as.
You keep trying to saddle me with relativism while ignoring that I consider morality to be objective, or that moral actions can be objectively determined. In my view, one culture can judge actions of others because the building blocks or morality we got from evolution came long before any culture. Morality precedes culture.
I've provided examples from the animal kingdom (which have the same evolutionary substrate and no culture) which evidence this. You avoided this in your response. If you don't understand what I'm saying, or don't know what to make of it, that's fine (just say so), but when you avoid it altogether it makes me feel like you're being dishonest.
I'm not interested in a debate of dogma, but a real conversation where you or I can be open to learning something new and meaningful. If you're not open to changing your view based on new information, then this is a waste of time for both of us.
Also, given that morality implicitly endorses human rights, Hitler could not "win" while denying them. Clearly, Hitler had a distorted view of right and wrong and was not playing the same 'game' as everyone else.
One final thing, I've not suggested morality is determined by might. Is this an example of a flawed interpretation by the self-proclaimed infallible interpreter of prophecy?! Did you consider the audience of my post? I bet that threw you off! 😉
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
First, it is not my opinion alone and it does not come from me alone.
But you admit it is an opinion. If we are to play by your rules, opinion has no place at the foundation of morality, and all the rhetoric you spout against relativism might just as easily apply to your view.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
Are you suggesting there is not a correct interpretation, or that the correct interpretation cannot be known?
Theres no suggestion. Your understanding of fulfilled Biblical prophesy is an interpretation, and I see no reason to accept such a dubious method of revelation as the product of an all knowing, all powerful being much less that your interpretation is better or worse than anyone else claiming to have found the truth in it. It's a Biblical Rorshach.
2). An absolute, objective, unchanging source is not a necessary foundation for morality.In other words, why should I trust anything you are selling?
My reply was not a sales pitch, but a rejection of yours.
Morality is like chess. There is no absolute, objective, unchanging source for the basis of good chess. Yet, provided winning is the goal, we can objectively evaluate moves as good or bad.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
Two things:
1) the prophecy fulfillments you reference are built on interpretation. Ie. The prophecies themselves are vague and the specifics you read into them come strictly from the reader(s).
2). An absolute, objective, unchanging source is not a necessary foundation for morality.
(as an aside) if it were, the god of the bible does not meet this standard anyway.
Feel free to respond to my last reply - its feeling fairly neglected!
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@keithprosser
Supposed to be? Talk like that and people will believe you are advocating for a designer. 🤣🤣
I'll keep my eyes peeled for trickery, but until then I'll accept it as is.
Created:
Posted in:
Well, I'm not sure prophecy necessarily violates the laws of physics and fraud/propaganda certainly make sense, but that is really beside my point.
I don't think PGA is a willing participant in fraud or propaganda, and he probably needs us to be more than dismissive to realize it. 😉
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@keithprosser
I'm not convinced prophecy is a real thing, but that is not the same thing as being convinced they are not real and I'm curious how you've arrived at that position.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@keithprosser
I can't help but think the interpretation of prophecy is a form of cultural (denominational) relativism.
Created:
Posted in:
Without reading the thread, I find myself wondering what is the logical connection between atheism/relativism and prophecy.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
As I said, at this point we should agree to disagree. I don't believe explaining my views to you again will help the situation.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@PGA2.0
It seems clear to me we are talking past one another and you and I should agree to disagree at this point.
Created: