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@secularmerlin
That when humans do not have enough information to solve a puzzle they tend to start guessing.
I agree. That is usually the case when Christians are confronted with such dilemmas. They begin to rewrite the whole bible.
I notice the resident fanatics are giving this subject a wide berth. This biblical version of the creation story gets more bizarre the more one looks at it.
And, as with most of these scriptures none of it simply makes no sense and does not add up on the face of it.
Example:
Read this slowly and spot the anomaly>>
Genesis 5:1-2
"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created".
And what about this strange verse:
"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh". <<<this is Genesis 2:24. Can you see what is wrong with this verse concerning "Adam"?
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@janesix
Darwinists, explain this
I haven't looked at your link and I never do unless there is some kind of synopsis. But..I have to admit Darwinism, to my mind - only works to a point especially when it comes to the human evolution. Then something happens that cannot really be explained. We (<<<loose term) get to Neanderthal stage and then there is what to me, is an unexplainable explosion in knowledge and physical development .
A chimpanzee is still a chimpanzee, they are still here, they haven't changed, they didn't die out as we should expect with this theory.
Yet we lost our fur only to need fire, and kill other animal for their fur to replace the fur that we supposedly have shed. It doesn't make sense in evolutionary terms.
I personally think man would die if left out to the elements in his natural state of nakedness. Even the bushmen and desert dweller have to light fires at night. Astronauts alway comment that they know which part of the planet they are passing over in darkness because of the "beautiful sight of these camp fires".
We , to my mind, are the worst equipped animal on the planet. I personally don't believe we even belong here. We may be on the beautiful planet but I find it hard to believe at times if we are actually of it.
We have had to create a false reality for ourselves, because we are so ill equipped to cope with this world in the 'natural' state of the beings we are. We are not " one with nature" and never will be.
Just my opinion folks.
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@ethang5
Buttered popcorn level entertainment. Lol.
Lol, I agree it should be extremely entertaining watching anyone explain this great complexing, puzzling and confusing biblical anomaly.
I notice you shied away from addressing the content of the OP.
But I wouldn't expect you to be able to. You do not have the required knowledge that is needed to answer this perplexing biblical creation story. Or to even explain it.
Leave it to some who has at least a little knowledge of the scriptures and save yourself a lot of embarrassment,eh. There's' a good lad.
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@RationalMadman
Not only that, but God made Eve first. Women are the original being made in God's image.
This thread is about the biblical account only, Not your theories on who came first.
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@secularmerlin
Address the op Take you argument somewhere elseOk if you like. You still have not offered any evidence of your claims though.
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After the first 5 days of the creation we come to day six and the creation of humans.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion etc etc.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
It doesn’t say how they made them or from what but create them male & female, he did.
So here as early as Genesis 1, we have a male and a female created in the “image” of the gods plural. Gen 1 ends at Gen31 day six with god saying “it was very good”.
Then something extra peculiar happens. At Genesis 2:5
"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:for the Lord God Has not caused it to rain upon the earth, andthere was not a man to till the ground".?????
What are we to make of this? Had he forgot that he had already made a male and female? And wasn’t the first male and female at Genesis 1:27 created for this very purpose?
Well we can’t say with absolute certainty because it only speaks of “dominion over” every living thing and “over all the earth”, which implies ruler ship i.e. a monarchy.
So putting aside this question for now, it then continues with a verse informing us that god needed labourers “to till the land” . So a God sets about a second creation of man but giving the reader more details of how he went about creating this second human male.
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord god Formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. It goes on to say he then put this man into the garden, implying that the man was actually created outside of the garden somewhere else.
7 verses further on at Verse 15 it reiterates again where he placed the man and why :
“and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.”
All was good we can take it? No, of course we can’t,because 16 verses after the creation of this second man Genesis informs us that A God then decides that because the man shouldn’t be alone without a mate/helper so he goes to a third creation of a human, this time a female. But this creation is like no other.
Genesis 2:21 And the Lord God Caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And therib, which the Lord God Had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Any Geneticist reading this today would no doubt recognize this as nothing less of cloning/genetic engineering.
So what do these three individual stories of the creation of humans all mean?
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@Mopac
I showed you how you are wrong.
You have not shown me anything. You claim graven images are acceptable “with certain guidelines”.
What are those guidelines that only you seem to know about? Let us see them Chapter and Verse.
This Is the second time I have asked you for this.
I have asked you three times now to show me where god himself ordered the destruction of the god given healing Serpent rod of Moses?
You are simply ignoring my argument.
Because you offer no evidence for your “argument”. You are ignoring the fact that god's dictate was NOT to make ANY kind of graven image AT ALL!
I already gave you an answer.
No you haven't
Images are not to be worshipped or bowed down to
You mean SOME graven images, don't you. And again you have avoided the stone cold and clear fact that this dictate from GOD!!! included ANY and ALL Graven images. so again I ask you, why wasthose temple GRAVEN IMAGES acceptable to Exiakah and not the god give serpent healing rod of moses?
It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures.Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course
Prove it!
You Shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. Exodus 20:4
Look Above^^^^^^^ the dictate is perfectly clear see that word ANYTHING^^^^^^^ That means "total".
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above
Sea Above, ^^^^^you posted that ^^^^^^^ it clearly states ANY and ANYTHING does it not?
What is actually being said here is to not serve false gods or idols,
It ALSO says not to create Graven Images of ANYTHING too. You Can't get around this so you invent this crap>>
"with certain guidelines of course"
It took you along time to come up with that !?. I wonder why.
What Are these "guidelines" that allows anyone to defy this jealous god??Let us see then now.
while arrogantly calling Moses stupid.
Not true. I asked would Moses be stupid enough to defy his god . The answer is no. God told him to make this HEALING staff and to entwine Specifically a Serpent around it. The same emblem of HEALING is still used today in the western medical world. There is no mention of god instructing Hezekiah to destroy this god given HEALING staff/rod/pole entwined with a serpent.
And claiming to know better than every authority
Where have I once claimed that?I have given my opinion on what I believe all this means. You do not have to accept what I say. And I don't care. It seems to bother you more than it does me.
Now address the questions above please and stop telling me you have answered me because you haven't.
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@Mopac
I already gave you an answer.
No you haven't
Images are not to be worshipped or bowed down to
You mean SOME graven images, don't you. And again you have avoided the stone cold and clear fact that this dictate from GOD!!! included ANY and ALL Graven images. so again I ask you, why was those temple GRAVEN IMAGES acceptable to Exiakah and not the god give serpent rod of moses?
It is not a total prohibition against making sculptures and pictures. Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course
You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. Exodus 20:4
Look above the dictate is perfectly clear see that word ANYTHING^^^^^^^ That means "total".
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above
See above, ^^^^^you posted that ^^^^^^^ it clearly states ANY and ANYTHING does it not?
What is actually being said here is to not serve false gods or idols,
It ALSO says not to create Graven Images of ANYTHING too. You can't get around this so you invent this crap>>
with certain guidelines of course
It took you along time to come up with that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. I wonder why.
What are these "guidelines" that allows anyone to defy this jealous god?? Let us see then now.
while arrogantly calling Moses stupid.
Not true. I asked would Moses be stupid enough to defy his god . The answer is no. God told him to make this HEALING staff and to entwine Specifically a Serpent around it. The same emblem of HEALING is still used today in the western medical world. There is no mention of god instructing Hezekiah to destroy this god given HEALING staff/rod/pole entwined with a serpent.
And claiming to know better than every authority
Where have I once claimed that? I have given my opinion on what I believe all this means. You do not have to accept what I say. And I don't care. It seems to bother you more than it does me.
Now address the questions above please and stop telling me you have answered me because you haven't.
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After the first 5 days of the creation we come to day six and the creation of humans.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion etc etc.
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
It doesn’t say how they made them or from what but create them male & female, he did.
So here as early as Genesis 1, we have a male and a female created in the “image” of the gods plural. Gen 1 ends at Gen31 day six with god saying “it was very good”.
Then something extra peculiar happens. At Genesis 2:5
"And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:for the Lord God Has not caused it to rain upon the earth, andthere was not a man to till the ground".?????
What are we to make of this? Had he forgot that he had already made a male and female? And wasn’t the first male and female at Genesis 1:27 created for this very purpose?
Well we can’t say with absolute certainty because it only speaks of “dominion over” every living thing and “over all the earth”, which implies ruler ship i.e. a monarchy.
So putting aside this question for now, it then continues with a verse informing us that god needed labourers “to till the land” . So a God sets about a second creation of man but giving the reader more details of how he went about creating this second human male.
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord god Formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. It goes on to say he then put this man into the garden, implying that the man was actually created outside of the garden somewhere else.
7 verses further on at Verse 15 it reiterates again where he placed the man and why :
“and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.”
All was good we can take it? No, of course we can’t,because 16 verses after the creation of this second man Genesis informs us that A God then decides that because the man shouldn’t be alone without a mate/helper so he goes to a third creation of a human, this time a female. But this creation is like no other.
Genesis 2:21 And the Lord God Caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And therib, which the Lord God Had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Any Geneticist reading this today would no doubt recognize this as nothing less of cloning/genetic engineering.
So what do these three individual stories of the creation of humans all mean?
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@Tradesecret
If they were ignorant,how could they possibly enter into a dialogue with anyone about the rights or wrongs of it.
I can have a dialogue with my three year old granddaughter about very few and limited things because she is ignorant of thousands of things. I can give her dictates such as - ' don't touch that iron it will burn you,' - that said, who's fault would it have been had she reached out and touched it? Mine or hers?
As for having“dialogue with anyone” <<< your words; I would myself have trouble having any sort of conversations with a reptile/serpent/snake, So it is clear then after all, that the dialogue was indeed with a being as I've stated from the beginning. The “serpent” was the Lord of creation along withhis spouse. who was opposed to his half brother. Took your time but you got there in the end, inadvertently. Good lad.
This particular Serpent Lord was known in
Akkad
Assur
Babylon
Nimrud
Nineveh
Persepolis
And take note of this one,
Uruk
known to the Hebrews as Ur, it is where Abraham came from.
And this lord was also known as the Serpent Lord in Egypt. Interesting then (if we are to take this story at face value and literal) that Moses was instructed specifically to wrap a Serpent around his staff which healed people just by looking at it, isn't it? I mean, of all the things in the world this god could chose to adorn this staff he chose the deceiving serpent, his opposer and adversary who by all accounts had caused man to suffer death. The irony.
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You have not proved they were ignorant.You keep asserting it.
No. the bible itself asserts that. Unless the bible is wrong and you are right? which is it?
ignorant
ˈɪɡn(ə)r(ə)nt
adjective
1. 1.
lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
ˈɪɡn(ə)r(ə)nt
adjective
1. 1.
lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
Surely you do not say they were ignorant of this command
No, What I have said is that they lacked knowledge as per bible clearly suggests. They become to know good knowledge and bad knowledge.
Stop trying to rewrite what is clearly written there to be read by anyone with the slightest bit of , well .... knowledge.
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Humanity wanted to be like God, that is clear.
I don’t think so. If We are to take this story at face value and literally, the only comprehension skills these two seemed to have understood was that they were servants to the gods. Like a dog to master, they relied on these gods for their survival because they knew nothing else.
Actually God is not bad. He is good.
So Saddam Hussein was good then when he also ordered the unprovoked genocide guessing against Kurds in Halabja?
Is this not dissimilar to
“But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth”:Deu: 20:16.
But there again, we are created in their image and we did become one of them.
Your arguments - are weak. They are pathetic.
You keep saying this and I would expect nothing else. But you don’t seem to understand that I highlight these things for you to explain not for me to explain. And none of your explanations’ stand up under scrutiny, what they do is highlight further biblical problems. .
You have not looked at the overall message;
I take that to mean that ole’ chestnut of - ‘I Am not seeing the bigger picture’ – I was wondering when you was going to fallback on that excuse. Listen, the message is clear in the story, it is 'do as I Say or die' . The dictate wasn’t about free will or anything like that because it came with a very clear threat of death.
When I provide a plausible explanation.
But you only believe it is plausible until it is shown not to be so then you then come back with another explanation.
It seems to me that rather than suddenly having wisdom, every thing they did after they ate the fruit got dumber and dumber.
Then like I have said, you are completely denying what the gods themselves have said.
"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil":
Your position seems to be suggesting that eating the fruit gave them knowledge to know the difference between good and evil.
As does the bible.
“ For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”.
But I will admit, I find it quite amazing and puzzling that the day that their “eyes were opened” they were able to fashion needles for sewing and they actually started to sew. BUT then god took over the designing side of the operation and>>
3:21 "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them".????
We have come a long way haven’t we? Sewing has turned into a complete worldwide fashion industry.
This God had to ask them:
"And God said “Who told you that you were naked”?
So this tells me that these two were not even aware of what nakedness was, and somehow believed it to be sinful only after their eyes were opened.
You see the real story behind this nonsensical biblical story lies in the fact that this couple had become sexually active. As shown in detail, in the original mesopotamian epic of creation.
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@Tradesecret
You are the one whokeeps calling them ignorant, not me
Indeed, and is well withincontext of the story concerning their lack of knowledge prior to the death threat , is it not?
Lets see:
ignorant
ˈɪɡn(ə)r(ə)nt
adjective
1. 1.
lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
Which explains why it was only AFTER the act of defiance that their eyes were opened.
Lets see:
ˈɪɡn(ə)r(ə)nt
adjective
1. 1.
lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
Which explains why it was only AFTER the act of defiance that their eyes were opened.
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@PGA2.0
They were passed down from generation to generation until Moses, who wrote under the inspiration of God about these accounts.
Moses' father-in-law is named as Jethro in most stories, but in others he is named Reuel. One would have thought that of all the things Moses knew , one would have been the name of his wife's father.
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@ethang5
PGA2.0 wroteThey were passed down from generation to generation until Moses, who wrote under the inspiration of God about these accounts.
God inspired then?
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@PGA2.0
They were passed down from generation to generation until Moses, who wrote under the inspiration of God about these accounts. The accounts were passed down from the time of Adam.
Absolute buffoonery. It is common knowledge among academics,ancient history scholars and theologians that the Genesis story if taken from the much earlier Mesopotamian creation epic It was written down and copied by the so called captive Jews in Babylon thousands of years after the fact.
my belief system is based on more than the Bible. It is based on history, and on reason, logic
It doesn't show.
They were passed down from generation to generation until Moses, who wrote under the inspiration of God about these accounts.
How did Moses write Deuteronomy if it records his death?
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@ethang5
Jesus is the founder of the church. Paul says so, and scripture says so.
Jesus would have been appalled that a new religion had sprang up in his name.(1) He was a JEWISH KING of the JEWISH nation. (2) He was HIGH PRIEST of the JEWISH nation and the JERUSALEM CHURCH. (3) Jesus brother James took over after Jesus was crucified for terrorism against the state of Rome.
After the error in your post is exposed,
Show us all the "error"
never ending weird translations you insist are scripture.
Well why don't you put that right if you believe I have mistranslated them? I did ask you if you could make any sense out of them, because I sure as hell cannot. One contradicts and conflicts the other/s as with those of Acts.
Here they are again, tell me why I have read them wrong and misinterpreted them. The floor is all yours.
On the one hand we are instructed to honour our parents and we will live a long life if we do.
Then we are told not to even recognise our own Fathers.
Then Jesus refuses to recognise his own Mother and his siblings.
Then after being told to honour our mother and father we are told by Jesus not to love our parents or our own sons or our own daughters more than him if we want to be worthy.
Exodus 20:12 King James Version (KJV)
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
So here ^^^^^ above^^^^^^ clearly we are being to to honour our parents by GOD. YES OR NO?
Matthew 23:9 King James Version (KJV)
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Here ^^^^^^^ above^^^^^^^ we are categorically told not to call anyone father on earth . YES OR NO?
Matthew 12: 47-48 King James Version (KJV)
Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”
and here ^^^^^^ above^^^^^^ jesus refuses to recognise his mother and siblings and acts as if they didn't exist. YES OR NO
Matthew 10: 37 King James Version(KJV) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
And above in ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this verse^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ we are told by Jesus to love him more than our parents AND our own CHILDREN , if we want to be worthy of HIM! YES OR NO?
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@ethang5
Paul founded no church
So you keep insisting but I disagree with you.
Paul is generally considered one ofthe most important figures of the Apostolic Age and in themid-30s to the mid-50s AD he founded severalchurches in Asia Minor and Europe.
Can you make any sense out of these statements?
On the one hand we are instructed to honour our parents and we will live a long lifeif we do.
Then we are told not to evenrecognise our own Fathers.
Then Jesus refuses to recognise his own Mother andhis siblings.
Then after being told to honour our mother and father we are toldby Jesus not to love our parents or ourown sons or our own daughters more than him if we want to be worthy.
Exodus 20:12 King James Version (KJV)
Honour thy father and thy mother: thatthy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one isyour Father, which is in heaven.
Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers arestanding outside, wanting to speak to you.”
He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”
Matthew10: 37 King James Version(KJV) He that loveth father or mother more than me isnot worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthyof me.
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@ethang5
Stay honest, and everything will be fine.
You are still accusing me of lying then. It should be simple to prove is all you have to do is just show the members hear what is is I have lied about with supporting evidence.
Yes I will go to a mod should I believe someone is purposely derailing my threads with nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with the theme of the OP.
So, where is your evidence of me lying? You have accused me multiple times now, it is about time you backed up your accusations.
You have accused me of manufacturing these verses below. I demand to see the proof.
The anomalies are there to see.
Acts 9:4 King James Version (KJV) contradicts Acts 26:14 which contradicts Acts 22:9 which then contradicts Acts 9:7.
One says Paul fell down and then another says they ALL fell down,
One says they "heard not the voice"
another says "I heard a voice speaking unto me"
then another verse tells us they all heard a voice
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
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@ethang5
Yet you brought up as if it did.
No you just assumed It Had implied to those verses in particular. I simply said they _ the GOSPLES_ are SUPPOSED to be god inspired.. yet it doesn't take seconds to find a flaws in them. get over it.
I am simply highlighting the flaws in these SO CALLED GOD inspired scriptures. Get Over it.
I am not mixing anything you fool.
Those verses are from Acts and are an example of what are supposed to be a “GOD INSPIRED” collection of scriptures ACCORDING TO TIMOTHY.
Deny it as much as you like, call me a fraud as much as you like, but those are the scriptures not mine, I didn't’ write them and the flaws and contradictions are not mine either. Stop crying,
Here they are again. get over it .
The anomalies are there to see.
Acts 9:4 King James Version (KJV) contradicts Acts 26:14 which contradicts Acts 22:9 which then contradicts Acts 9:7.
One says Paul fell down and then another says they ALL fell down, One says they "heard not the voice" another says "I heard a voice speaking unto me" then another verse tells us they all heard a voice
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
You are wasting your time completely trying to paint me as a liar and accuse me of lying and making these verses up when they are so easily confirmed BY YOUR OWN SCRIPTURE. How could I possibly believe I could get away with manufacturing and inventing, biblical scriptures that have never existed.
Pull yourself together man and stop denying the bloody obvious FACTS!!!!!
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He took advantage of his status as both a Jew and a Roman citizen to minister to both Jewish and Roman audiences.
ethang5This is just fluff that says nothing about Paul starting any churches.
What it is saying in actual fact is that paul was quite two faced he said to a "Roman I will be a Roman to a Jew a Jew and to to a Greek a Greek", if it furthered the cause of his mission.
You said, "all is supposed be a “ god inspired” gospel truth. Why is it supposed to be?
because Timothy makes it quite clear they are GOD inspired. it doesn't take you long to start ignoring the facts does. CAN'T YOU READ???
2 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
You can't find contradiction, so you manufacture one, and then pretend its in the script.
yes you keep saying that but haven't shown myself or anyone what it is I have "manufactured" from those scriptures.
Then why do you need to insert fake scripture?
I haven't. I have taken them directly from Acts as anyone interested can check for themselves. I suggest you do so. And they DO contradict one another.
You don't know what you are talking about, you simply do not know or maybe haven't even read your own scriptures. if you are going to call me a liar then at least have the decency to show those reading here where and what about I have lied.
The anomalies are there to see.
Acts 9:4 King James Version (KJV) contradicts Acts 26:14 which contradicts Acts 22:9 which then contradicts Acts 9:7.
One says Paul fell down and then another says they ALL fell down, One says they "heard not the voice" another says "I heard a voice speaking unto me" then another verse tells us they all heard a voice
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Get over it. The blinding muddled mind of these gospellers or Paul himself just cannot get their stories straight, and it gets worse.
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@ethang5
Nowhere in this passage does it say it is a “ god inspired” gospel truth.
Not in that particular verse it doesn't . But Timothy does inform us :
2 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
You really need to read, understand and above all, know your scriptures before firing off wild accusations of fraud.
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@disgusted
They are so used to the obvious and more common questions concerning the bible/ and why god does things for one person and not another etc etc. that they have had centuries to kind of perfect their answers in one shape or form. That is until one actually challenges them on their scriptures in detail , they then simply come apart and reconstruct the whole bible right in front of your eyes.
When one takes the time to pick at these scriptures with a clear and critical eye it is not hard to spot the flaws, as I have shown above and on many other threads. What makes me grin is when they insist that they have answered your question. They don't seem to understand that responding to a question, is not answering the question. See above for examples.
You will notice, above it is Hezekiah himself and on his own accord doing what he decides is right or wrong and not the god who instructed the making of the staff in the first place. Mopac cannot seem to accept this. Mopac has also ignored the GLARING double standards of the fact that it was ALL graven images that were taboo, but still there were graven images in god's own temple and outside of which two had over 30ft wingspans, (hows that for a blatant graven image!) of which neither God nor Hezekiah seemed to object.
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@EtrnlVw
.I never liked his voice that much, but actually I liked it much better in his gospel songs.
Which just happens to be the same voice as the one you "never like much".
you like Presley's voice better than mine!!
Yep, and I think I could be right in believing that so do half the population of the world. I think I would rate you as .... must try harder.
No offence ☺☺☺☺☺
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@Mopac
I'm pretty sure I brought the whole Moses serpent thing to you in another topic. You really wonder if I read the verse?
No you haven’t and yes I do. Why ask me why god instructed Moses to make this staff unless you’re just being stupid? It was me who put the verse there above, IN MY FIRST POST, that details this staff and why it was made. Numbers 2121:1-9 Then you ask me the silly question of why god told Moses’ to make it. Are you backwards?
why don’t look at your own post 18 above to see your own stupid question.
The fiery serpent was never intended to be worshipped.
But they had been venerating the thing for over a thousand years before Hezekiah came on the scene,without any punishment from Moses’ god. You haven't explained that. why did it all of a sudden and after over a thousand years, become an abomination to Ezekiah??
You must think Moses Was awfully stupid or something to think he would be so careless as to make all these idols after the commandment was given to not make them.
Are you stupid. show me where Moses was instructed to make anything else other than this staff .Are younow trying to say that Moses’ god didn’t instruct him to make this staff?
Here is the verse:
8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. Numbers 21:8
And while you mention “making all these idols” you are conveniently skimming over and ignoring the stone cold fact that there were graven images in the temple on the ark and each side of the temple portico.
Now you look at the commandment again:
You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. Exodus 20:4
Do you see that? ^^^^^^^^ in the form of anything^^^^^^^ it includes ALL and everything above and below.
So explain to me why these temple “graven images” were not taboo when god clearly commands not to make ANY???
Even if what you say is correct. It doesn't explain why some graven images were acceptable yet this particular staff was an abomination to Ezekiah.
Can you not see the hypocrisy and double standards going on here?
Your argument collapses under your own inadvertent admission!
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@EtrnlVw
What did you think of my little gospel hymn in the first link?
Nice. But I didn't find it moved me like a gospel choir going full tilt does or the sincerity of Presley's brilliant baritone voice can.
I am not religious but the mood and feelings conveyed by the above mentioned are sincerely moving .
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if the fiery serpent on a pole is the god of Moses, why did God tell Moses to make it?
No. It was fashioned on the instructions of his god. I haven’t once said it was Moses’ god. You are now turning to deceit for answers.
And it is clearly in the scripture why Moses Was instructed to fashion it. HAVE YOU NOT EVEN READ THE VERSE!!!? It was to heal. Are you purposely being ignorant?
Show me where in the scripture the god of Moses instructs Ezekiah to destroy this Rod that he specifically instructed Moses to make?
I have said twice now
For centuries Hezekiah, Joshua or the Babylonian exile, the united kingdom of Israel is being shown to have been practicing what was regarded as idolatry without the slightest implication of any infringement of God's holy laws. there is absolutely nothing that suggest this life saving Rod was destroyed on the orders of Moses' god. It appears that these destructive actions were reforms made by Hezekiah himself and on his own accord.
They had then according to you been "worshiping" this god given life saving rod for over a thousand years without any retribution or punishment from god, why is that?
You haven't addressed this. Ignoring these facts is not answering.
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@Mopac
very common method of responding to posts
post 153 mopac Common among fools.
So PGA 2.0 in his post above is also a fool for using the quotation icon to its full and perfect advantage and capacity. SEE HIS POST 159 ABOVE THEN GO CALL HIM A FOOL!
You really need to grow up mopac. Stop making excuses for not answering questions when everyone else has no trouble with "interruptions" as you put it and the "breaking up" of posts. it is common practice on forums SEE ABOVE post 159!!!!!!!!
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very common method of responding to postsMopacMopac Common among fools.
So I am a fool when I use the quotation correctly and for its intended purposes but you are not when you do. You are as hypocritical as your scriptures.
Ok then, I guess we aren't going to talk anymore.
That is entirely up to you. I cannot force you to engage me no more that I can "interrupt you" , on a internet forum, you silly man. I suppose this another way for you to get out of your stupid statement that I questioned you on and you have totally ignored for lack of a answer.
You stated in a post above that christianity is a religion of the spirit, so:>
Tell me,what is spiritual about someone in the scriptures saying “honour thy mother and thy father” and then saying “He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”?
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Not in the eyes of Moses' god as I have shown above and it is the same subject that I am sticking to.
For centuries Hezekiah, Joshua or the Babylonian exile, the united kingdom of Israel is being shown to have been practicing what was regarded as idolatry without the slightest implication of any infringement of God's holy laws. there is absolutely nothing that suggest this life saving Rod was destroyed on the orders of Moses' god. It appears that these destructive actions were reforms made by Hezekiah himself and on his own accord. It had been in the possession of the Mosaic hebrews for over a thousand years before it was destroyed.
Jesus compared his own healing power to the actions and power of this serpent symbol. Jesus likened it to the symbol of eternal life. Is this not worshiping !?
In The book of Mormon Alma tells the people of Antionum that many of Israelites died because they lacked the faith to look at the brazen serpent. He then compared the brazen serpent to a type of Christ and exhorted the people to look to Christ and spiritually live
And I have just come across this :
There is a Brazen Serpent Monument on Mount Nebo in Jordan created by Italian artist Giovanni Fantoni. The Cardston Alberta Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a hand painted mural depicting Moses and the brazen serpent. Similarly, on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, Michelangelo painted a mural of the Israelites' deliverance from the plague of serpents by the creation of the bronze serpent.
So all the above are worshipers of graven images.
you said earlier " I still have an aversion to statues and pictures. I don't have any in my home".
Would this include photos of your parents, children, brothers , sisters, friends and other relatives.
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@Mopac
Everytime you ask a question, you ask 4 others before the first one is answered.Maybe that is because you didn't answer question 1 you idiot.
You simply cannot explain away this godly hypocritical contradiction. I have. And if you had read your Old Testament extremely closely, you would see that my explanation is perfectly sound. Hezekiah took exception to this rod because it was an emblem of the serpent god that Moses supported and revered unlike the one Hezekiah worshipped. AND This is why Hezekiah didn't demolish and destroy the cherubim images.
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@Mopac
If you break up my posts like that, I will not read it. I am on a cell phone, and I am far too busy to waste my time dealing with your formatting while addressing every one of your fallacies.If you have something to say to me, respond to my whole post at once.
It is not my fault you don't have the time or patience or the equipment to use this very common method of responding to posts on a forum. I have explained to you, it is there so you understand which parts I am responding to specifically, otherwise if I was simply to adress your opinions, answers and responses in one single post, then you cannot be sure to what it is I am responding to precisely.
Here's is a better idea. make your answers ( when ever you have one) direct and short and to the point. Your long drawn out filibustering doesn't help.
I do not respect your method of post dissemination, I see it as a reflection of your inability to truly listen.
then you are blind. because quoting and answering to each and everyone of your points individually obviously shows I have read and "listened" to each and every one of them.
I would be willing to bet that you interrupt people when they talk.
You really are silly aren't you? Did I interrupt you when you posted the above? how can one possibly "interrupt" you unless one was right beside you. This is the internet you absolute fool.
And you still have managed to avoid those questions above. why?
you stated in a post above that christianity is a religion of the spirit so:>
Tell me,what is spiritual about someone in the scriptures saying “honour thy mother and thy father” and then saying “He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”?
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@Mopac
You are not open to the possibility that your interpretations are faulty, even if no authority on these scriptures. were to tell you otherwise.
I am, but look how you have responded to this question
I have asked you to explain away this contradiction by god himself. You have suggested as a answer that the hypocrisy in this case is “GOOD” and the blatant contradictions are “GOOD”. In other words you simply cannot explain it away can you?
You have offered NO explanation, full stop!
And you simply saying I may be “faulty” in my "interpretations" without actually telling me why they be “faulty” is not an answer EITHER ISIT!
I am telling you. This staff was around along time before Moses was born., thousands of years before in fact. It was the symbolic staff of the flesh and blood Mesopotamian Lord of healing and medicine, EA/ENKI and his spouse. The evidence for my "interpretation" of this staff and it symbolism is overwhelming. The staff Moses fashioned on the direct orders and in contradiction of his god earlier dictate, is said to have healed those who simply looked at it.
All of these staffs have one single thing in common: HEALING. These EXACT symbols are still in use today to signify HEALING. As I have shown
You on the other hand have offered absolutely nothing .
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@PGA2.0
And a myriad of gods as the bible clearly states. But yours is the one true god I suppose?Unfortunately, many people do not worship God as He is. They have molded God into what they want Him to be. Thus, a myriad of world religions.
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@Mopac
Your questions will never end, because you don't really accept what the faith is about.
That's neither here nor there. I am questioning the scripture not your faith. I am more than well aware of your faith.
You Argue over letter issues when Christianity is religion of the spirit.
No, that would be whole verses full of contradictory letter issues.
Tell me,what is spiritual about someone in the scriptures saying “honour thy mother and thy father” and then saying “He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”?
You Seem to be ignoring the fact that these New Testament scriptures are suppose to ACTUALLY be telling the ACTUAL story of the ACTUAL words and ACTUAL deeds of the Son Of God and THE ACTUAL ACTS words and deed OF HIS Disciples. Yet, when put under the microscope they don’t ACTUALLY not ring true. And that is just the New Testament
No Matter how many questions of yours that are answered, they will never be enough.
Wellyou haven’t answered any yet, although you insist that you have. And I Agree, there are so many anomalies, half told stories and enigmatic statements in these scriptures that they, for me have to be ironed out, discussed and explained by someone who should know.
You Don't ask because you intend to be wrong. You ask questions because you are sure you are right.
How could you possibly know that? I ask a question to get a answer to my question. You just can’t handle my questions, so , that, somehow, in your faithful eyes,makes wrong FOR ASKING!!!?
The Scriptures themselves give instructions on how to handle such as you
Well I Haven’t seen anything that describes what you claim. I have read certain dictates “turn the other cheek” and sell you clothes and buy weapons” are those the instructions to which you refer?
Tell Me, if the end of time/the world was approaching as these poor suckers ofthe time were led to believe, then what was the point of giving all your belongings and everything you owned away to the so called “poor”?
"But Avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Yes from Titus. and would say that wouldn’t he? He probably, like you, simply couldn’t address or answer some of these problematic scriptures himself so came up with something as bland and dismissive as you do.
My Religion is Truth worship.
If you worship truth, then get to know that these gospels do not ring true on the surface.
Truth Worship is the religion of Christianity.
That’ll Be Christianity then. Yes I think I got that.
You don't know my faith, nor can you as long as you believe you know it is false.
You’redoing it again. I understand you have faith in these scriptures. I understand that you have faith in at least in one of the many gods of the bible. It is the scriptures I am questioning, not your faith.
You remain unteachable.
I am open to all kinds of teaching, but it appears you are in any position to provide the simplest of teaching, not even to a child. You repeating over and over that you are a lover of “truth” and a believer of "truth"wouldn’t even answer a child’s basic questions such as, why did my motherdie? Why have I got a illness that is going to kill me before I get to school age?
It's My hope that you one day come to understand what the faith is really about
I know perfectly what faith is about, it is believing something is true without evidence.
that you come to repentance and acknowledgment of The Truth.
I believe I Am slowly acknowledging the truth of the scriptures and am revealing what Iacknowledge. And that seems to be annoying you and a few others here.
Your Questions will never end,
That’ll be down to the hundreds of inconsistencies in the scriptures. I don’t believe you have even read the bible and certainly not as closely as I have.
and you have had several answered already
stop saying that, it just isn’t true , truth lover!!!
You Don't ever accept the answers you are given because you think you know better.
I have given you examples how one of your so called answers simply leads to another question because your answers do not add up. Telling me that biblical hypocrisy in some cases is “GOOD” and the blatant contradictions are “GOOD” are not answers, THEY'RE MORE CONTRADICTIONS!!!!!
Whatthis tells me is that you aren't really interested in learning, but instead youare playing a game of rhetoric.
So let me get this straight, when I quote a verse from your own scriptures, that is me being rhetorical? But when you do the same it is something else entirely.: Truth? This again is hypocrisy. And this is the nature of the scriptures, they continually throw up questions. Are you trying to tell everyone here that you have never ever questioned the bible ?
You are a typical case of being led to verses by someone else and by the same token you are also being led away from those verses that contradict those verses you have been led to and directed towards. Now that is the "TRUTH"
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@Mopac
"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
I thought you was interested in the ruth. Your above verse has no meaning to this thread unless you would like to show us how it actually relates to the story of this Rod of God and the conflicting statement of God himself?
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Who can deny that the sound that comes from a gospel choir is uplifting. My sister used to play gospel songs from Elvis Presley albums sang with a perfect voice that could almost convince you that Elvis was onto something.
So High, Run On, Where No One Stands Alone and quite a few others from his albums have stuck with me, I cannot deny.
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@Mopac
No, that'll be Christians when they have been backed into a corner with cold hard and so obvious contradictory verses from their OWN scriptures. You have even said >>>'one doesn't have to be knowledgeable of the scriptures to know the truth' <<<< My paraphrasing; as if this is some kind of perfect answer to a difficult question concerning the bible. You have even now suggested on another thread that sometimes these hypocritical contradictions are "good" or "for the good" ! this wouldn't satisfy anyone's curiosity not to mention the fact isn't even a answer.Atheists love to use this language game because they don't believe in truth.
In your own words Mopac: Why did the son of god Jesus require baptizing?
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@Castin
Reminds me of the Rod of Asclepius.
That is exactly what it is, Castin. It is the sign of healing and has been since man developed a brain. I have stated here many times now that one can see this sign of healing on every ambulance in the West it adorns the sides of ambulances, can be seen hospital lobbies and even on Fire Engines in the United States.
It is the sign of the Sumerian Lord Enki, the creator God of Mesopotamia copied by Babylonians, Akkadians, Egyptians then Hebrews. It is the same Caduceus of the Greeks known as the Staff of Hermes. This staff was the Sigil/ symbol of this very flesh and blood Sumerian Lord Enki, lord among lords that is being referred to as the serpent in the biblical creation story.
Symbol of Lord Ea/ Enk 1000 's of years before the bible was even thought about
Greek Caduceus
It is no coincidence that Moses chose this Symbol, It was the sign of the lord that opposed his half brother Enlil in the garden of the Edin.
And this is why King Hezekiah took great exception to this particular staff of this particular god carried once by his chosen servant Moses. Ezekiah, you see had been worshiping the other half brother Enli.
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YHVH'S Hidden Format in the bible
Interesting. And from which parts of the bible did you actually winkle and decipher your version of creation from?
I asked because give or take a few words, it is almost identical to Genesis 1:1-10
And you haven't quite "revealed" your "format" to deciphering the creation epic, even though you say:
this is 1 of 4 formats i am revealing.
So, what is the format?
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@Mopac
So no, iconoclasm is a heresy for good reason
This shifting of the goalposts by you shouldn’t surprise me. Saying the hypocrisy in this case is “GOOD” and the blatant contradictions are “GOOD”. is perhaps the only thing you can say given the facts that this hypocrisy involves God himself and one of the Bible's most famous patriarchs.
and the ark of the covenant has statues of cherubim on it Indeed,
Pleased you mentioned that;
why then did not Hezekiah King of Judah destroy those “graven images”that adorned the lid of the Ark of the Covenant?
And what about those two absolute massive golden cherubim erected at either side of the temple portico? They are said to have had ten metre wingspans!! If this is not making a likeness of “anything in the heavens above” then what is!?
It also appears that neither GOD nor King David NOR Hezekiah King of Judah had a problem with these graven images? Why did he have a problem with the GOD GIVEN staff of MOSES?
What you are refusing to acknowledge is that for centuries before Hezekiah, Joshua or the Babylonian exile, the united kingdom of Israel is being shown to have been practicing what was LATER regarded as idolatry without the slightest implication of any infringement of God's holy laws. What changed?
"Thou Shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:.....thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them"
If you are going to string two commandments together at least quote the whole and complete verse where god states he is jealous and will punish the children of fathers for generations for something they are not responsible for..
5 "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me";
From your favourite and trusty dictionary
iniquity
1: gross injustice. 2: wicked act or thing.
So he is not just a “jealous god” but a terrifying vengeful one too that will commit wicked acts of injustice to these blameless generations of children.
Although I am sure this verse you added also gets contradicted somewhere. I shall have to look that up for . It won't take long.
Ah, here we are.
Deuteronomy 16 “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Just cannot make up their minds can they these gospel writers.... or god himself?
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@janesix
What makes you think God wants to be known?
Funny you should ask that. He certainly didn’t want Moses to know his name did he. When Moses asked him his name he told him ‘never you mind about my name’ and to mind his own business and to get on and do as he had been bid .. more or less.
And amen does mean – invisible - from my own understanding. So it appears that this god wanted to remain incognito and unseen at least for the time being.
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I am no longer an iconoclast.
I suppose you cannot afford to be iconoclast seeing that this massive biblical contraction by god himself cannot simply be explained away by ,misunderstanding, misreading, translation or any of the other myriad of excuses you likely to spill out repetitively when cornered with such a blatant contradiction as this concerning a biblical iconic patriarch such as Moses himself.
Afterall, being an iconodule who favours the veneration of religious icons you do not have to explain away all the biblical iconography that adorn Western Christian churches throughout the whole of Europe and parts of the Near East.
But I see you have failed once more to reconcile this biblical anomaly. One the one hand God categorically forbids idols and on the other hand, god encourages the fashioning of such things and a serpent of all things, the so called great deceiver and liar from the garden of Eden!!!.
But it doesn't end there does it? It never does with these scriptures, as one contradiction will undoubtedly lead to another. And here it is.
Keeping in mind at all times that this Rod/Pole with a snake wrapped around it was the very symbol of god's authority and Exodus describes it as the "Rod Of God" that held great power - god's power - we have to assume:
then why did the Judeans take great exception to this graven image that was fashioned of the orders of their own god that carried great significance for the children of Israel? And explain to me, why did this happen?:>>
When Israel Was invaded by the Assyrians, thousands of its citizens fled to the safety of Judah. King Hezekiah welcomed them with open arms but seized and broke their most treasured relic. Read for yourself,
2 Kings 18:3-4
He did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, just as his father David had done. 4 He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it.
The people, rightly, revered this staff, they had seen its power, yet King Hezekiah saw it as a form of idolatry???
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Does this dictate actually mean what it says?
You Shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below”. Exodus 20:4.KJV.“
Because to Moses, this lord then later goes on and gives another dictate and ordered Moses to make a graven image of a “serpent of brass” and it cured the desert wondering Hebrews of.... well other Serpents actions, just by looking at it!
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. Numbers 21:1-9
I noticed this serpent is actually taking the role of some kind of physician and curing people.
Which is something I suggested in my thread concerning the The problem with the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. where at post 25 I state:
Of course it wasn’t a tree at all was it? It was the half brother of this lord that was a problem, he wanted humans to be knowledgeable where as this “god gods” did not. You need to go back to where this story actually originated, Mesopotamia,and you will read this creation epic in its original form. The two brothers involved are named Enlil and his half brother Enki the serpent lord<<<< see that serpent Lord. Post 24 Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
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@Mopac
When I say God, I mean the ultimate reality, and the dictionary backs me up.
I suppose it depends on what dictionary suites your belief best.
God
NOUN
- 1(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.Example sentencesSynonyms
- 2(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.‘a moon god’‘the Hindu god Vishnu’More example sentencesSynonyms
- 2.1 An image, animal, or other object worshipped as divine or symbolizing a god.‘wooden gods from the Congo’More example sentencesSynonyms
- 2.2 Used as a conventional personification of fate.‘he dialled the number and, the gods relenting, got through at once’More example sentences
- 3A greatly admired or influential person.‘he has little time for the fashion victims for whom he is a god’More example sentences
- 3.1 A thing accorded the supreme importance appropriate to a god.‘don't make money your god’More example sentences
- 4the godsinformal The gallery in a theatre.‘they sat in the gods’More example sentencesSynonyms
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But no, these concepts do actually have meaning that I believe becomes clearer with the study of scripture
I have yet to discover what it is that these gospellers actually mean when they use the words "Paradise" and "Heaven". And my studies of these scriptures are not fleeting, I can assure you.
But thankfully, it is not necessary to even be literate to be a good Christian.
O dear o dear o dear.
Being a good Christian is not about knowing everything
Being a good atheist doesn't mean he/she has to have faith in Jesus to be a good person of good character either , but Christians seem to believe they have the monopoly on who has good morals and who doesn't and that only christians can have decent morals.
There is a difference between faith in The Truth and faith in knowledge.
Sigh!
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@Mopac
You breaking up my posts into pieces tells me that you aren't really listening.Do you interrupt people when they talk?
The idea of individual quotes is to show you which parts of your post I am directly responding to. That is what the quote facility is for. And I could hardly "interrupt" you when this is a forum on the internet. Stop being silly .
You really do behave like a fanatic, you know? And you don't accept answers you don't like.
No I just want some answers. If you see that as "fanatical" there isn't much I can do about that. It is your baby, you rock it!
You are talking at me, you aren't really listening. That is the impression you are giving me.
I understand what you are saying, and I do listen. if I were not listening then I couldn't respond to specifics. But you simply have not addressed my question, you have only given me your opinion, which doesn't answer my questions.
I will at least agree that in the context of this discussion, paradise or heaven Is not a place in the sky up in the clouds.
Yes that would have been a excellent starting point. But then this leaves you with the problem of what then do the scriptures actually mean, because they are ambiguous on the matter.
It may also shock you that Jesus isn't going to float in the sky and do a sky dance as everyone who has ever died is resurrected and brought up there in the sky to join in.
Yes I thought that "coming on a cloud" might give you a jolt. Silly for the scriptures to even state that, don't you think? Unless it means something else entirely. Does it? Or shall we put this down to yet another Unclear, puzzling, enigmatic and ambiguous statement by these gospellers?
The letter kills the spirit brings life. This is a major overarching theme of the new Testament
Is it. Ok. I don't understand that either.
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@Mopac
Why don't you tell me what you believe scripture says?
The scripture says exactly what they say. But I want to know what they MEAN by what it is saying.
Better yet, why don't you just tell me what scripture says.
I HAVE! I have quoted chapterand verse see above. I just don’t know what the scriptures MEAN by the words paradise and heaven. BECAUSE THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT MAKE THEMSELVES CLEAR.
because obviously there is no interpretation going into whatever godly declarations you make.
But I haven’t made any " godly declarations",have I? I have been asking you what itis the SCRIPTURES MEAN by these words.
Where are paradise and heaven? In God. In The Truth. That is what I am saying.
And you have said at post 10
Paradise Is Godliness with contentment. That is my answer.
So you don’t know anymore than I do then. Just as I thought. So you will agree with me then if I were to say that paradise and heaven are not a places above in the sky/space. Although the scriptures give tantalizing hints that they are. I mean, "coming on a cloud" most certainly suggest a skyward abode now, doesn't it!
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@Mopac
I already told you what Itake paradise to mean.
You have but how many times do I Have to repeat myself? I want you to tell me what the scripture means by the words paradise and heaven and where they are located.
But you perfectly understand what the question is. Do I have to keep repeating it?
on Earth as in Heaven
And there we are again, IN signifying to be - enclosed- in something.
I can give you many more references to Heaven, try some of these:, maybe they will help you explain tome, what the scriptures mean is by “heaven” and where it is located.
Matthew 7:21 King James Version (KJV)Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
So this ^^^^ suggests "heaven" to something somewhere that can be entered into, but is it a place? or a state of mind?
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
Is Jesus here^^^^^ suggesting a place, If so where is it?
Luke 10:20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
This^^^^ suggest somewhere enclosed.
Mark 13:32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
This^^^^ suggests that something or some can actually abide in this enclosed place this enclosed place.
Mathew 24:30 - 31 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
This^^^^ again suggest someone; Jesus is actually in a place called “Heaven”.
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Again ^^^ this is suggesting a place rather than a state of mind
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven,but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Again, this is suggesting Jesus is actually dwelling IN this place called heaven. and clearly stating it is UP i.e. that it is located SKYWARD.
You insisted that these are not ambiguous statements. But the scriptures only give tantalising pointers to what these words "paradise" and "heaven" may actually mean. Your opinion on what you think these words mean are only as good as mine and therefore would be just as valid, if we were to go by your standard of deduction.
What do the scriptures mean by paradise and where is it?
What do the scriptures mean by heaven and where is it?
Just say you don't know , if you don't know.
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@keithprosser
Consider an explorer who comes back from Africa and says he discovered a new species of elephant; ie he 'had en experience of a new species of elephant'.That is evidence a previously unknown species of elephant exists...
not according to the definitions of both Evidence and Proof.
evidence
1.
- the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."the study finds little evidence of overt discrimination"
proof
- 1 evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement.
Someone's word alone is not proof or evidence and neither does it make it fact unless proven with an available BODY of evidence.
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