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@TheRealNihilist
some how's that?
doesn't negate the point that just because someone doesn't have a birth certificate doesn't mean they don't still have rights, that better for you now?
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@Athias
many immigrants don't have or can't produce a birth certificate....then again at one time there was no such thing so....
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@Greyparrot
As former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher famously put it, “the trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”
hey how did the Sanders campaign make out raising their wages to $15/ hour, you know because they were under threat by their union.....guess it got a really good taste of what socialism really is like lol
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@zedvictor4
intent and reason is what differentiates most things imo
miscarriages, spontaneous abortions happen for many reasons, biological ones not willful, not ones you can't choose or not choose.
You say intentionally which I don't find important as is the reason.
"Hands down, the single most common reason that a miscarriage occurs is some a problem with either the egg or sperm's chromosomes during embryo formation."
you can search more up yourself if you'd like but that is worlds different than having someone perform an abortion for non medical reasons which boils down to inconvenience.
the woman's immune system is suppressed so it doesn't attack the fetus/embryo etc as a foreign body, much like what happens with organ transplants.
in both instances the foetus is intentionally rejected by the host.
the intention is to carry the pregnancy to term. both instances would be similar if they are both for similar medical reasons, otherwise apples and grapefruit.
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@dustryder
However the constitution and supreme court rules have enough wiggle room in their wordings such that it is the right of the lawmakers to argue on the basis of those wiggle rooms.
I guess that is what I was actually wondering, you just said it better than I did, do you think there's still wiggle room given this case/ruling?
"the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding" and that "the Second Amendment right is fully applicable to the States".
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@Greyparrot
it's very obvious, unless you are an ideallog or lemming.
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@Lucy
Your internal sense of gender identity is presumably that you are male,
maybe, but don't blind people know if they are male or female?
well, try choosing to feel female
I could no more know how a female feels than anyone else, nor could I explain how it feels to be male/man, it doesn't have anything to do with feelings, just biology. If you disagree or see it differently that's fine, but I don't think your views should be imposed on mine, just like I wouldn't impose mine on you. You may wish to be called x or considered x (that's a request) and that's your prerogative only in so far as you don't attempt to force that one me.
Again would you like someone to lie to you and tell you want you want to hear or be honest with you?
why do think using a trans person's chosen name is good, but not their pronouns?
because I am not Lucy, but I am a man
the real issue is when someone unintentionally uses incorrect words, even to the point people want to make it a crime, I mean wtf, seriously?
I make a conscious effort to avoid all pronouns for those very reasons.
People generally don't want to be forced or threatened into doing things they don't want to do.
I guess since this is such an issue we'd need to go back to the creation of the words male/female as well as how other languages use them etc.
We look at an animal and say whether it's female or male yet the criteria for the human animal is different somehow? That difference in criteria is choice? This doesn't seem to be consistent.
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@drafterman
nope, having a discussion with them, it's interesting, which is a form of entertainment, your post kind of struck me as funny.
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@drafterman
sometimes work gets pretty boring and this is the one of the few entertainments I can get away with hahaha
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@Lucy
I am male because I was born with a penis etc, that makes me a male. If you are saying you don't need a penis to be a male then what am I? If you are saying you can choose to be male or female, those terms are meaningless because they can be defined and redefined anyway anyone chooses.
Again if you want people to lie to you and call you female when they really don't believe it that's up to you to live that lie. A name is different and people should use your name.
You have to decide if you want people to be real towards you or fake to appease you.
to that end, I am a man/male, I can not get pregnant, therefore men/males can not get pregnant.
any artificial physical changes done to look like me and my kind doesn't make you one of us, no more than me changing the color of my skin makes me the race of which I look like. That's my opinion and I am and should be entitled to it shouldn't I?
I've provide customer service and care to transpeople in my job. I never try to treat anyone different and everyone the same. I'd like to think I've done a good job at doing that generally. Naturally how I'm treated does make a difference, I'm only human after all. No one should be treated unkindly or badly, most people anyway.
A: Did Lucy take a turn?
B: Yeah, Lucy built a castle.
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@dustryder
so the candidates who say they will ban them are knowingly and willfully going to violate the constitution and supreme court rulings?
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why I never came across this until recently, I have no idea.
Does this seem to put the kibosh on any ak/ar bans?
There are cases still pending because of the fascist state of NY attempt to destroy the 2a, but that's nothing new.
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@Greyparrot
Teachers of English should teach our students that words are not given things, but verbal tokens or signs of things that should finally be carried back to the things that they stand for to be verified."
I love that, I want that on a tee-shirt
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@bmdrocks21
when you ask someone how many genders there are, it would be 2.
really what they should probably do is adopt the name trans or something like that, which accurately describes them, that would be used in place of he/she. it would be awkward but eventually it would be normalized. Also this could help for those who try to "pass" to fool the gender they are after. Usually it's the guy being tricked into thinking that the person is a natural born female.
So if that would make it a 3rd gender I'm find with it.
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@Greyparrot
if someone has an opinion you don't like or they are mistaken, it's a lie, therein lies the difference.
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@Greyparrot
got my popcorn, this should be good.
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@Lucy
like someone born with both sets of sex organs. What sex are they born as, and why? Or is it not possible to say?
from what I remember, there are either hormone levels or some other kind of testing along with physical presentation to determine which one is more, in other words these people are not 50% both sexes, they are more one than the other.
Sure! Pronouns are just an easy way to tell how someone wants to be referred to.
I see what you mean, I can't honestly answer that question as I have never been in that position yet.
If I did say it wouldn't be because I meant it or believed it, it would be a lie, if that is what makes people happy, lies, being fake etc I would probably do that.
side note but this was interesting https://youtu.be/C1roM98Dass
It's worth noting that hormone replacement therapy for trans people is safe and effective, about as safe as medication can get.
I think that's debatable, but again if someone wants to risk it, that's up to them so long as it doesn't affect me which includes my tax money
have some parts that are considered male and others considered female.
shared traits or similar ones are what we use to differentiate and define.
cars and trucks have many similarities but are vastly different, I'd say more different than similar.
Brains I think is a whole different discussion as we are talking about the outward, visible physical traits.
if xy and xx are not male and female chromosomes what are they? what else can they be?
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@Greyparrot
correct, then at some point they would be given x number of minutes to explain their answer but can not talk about any other candidate/person, period. Then a free for all period where they can rant about anything/anyone they wish. by then most people will know what they wanted to know and it won't matter all that much.
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@HistoryBuff
I don't respect the double talk, vagueness and what I consider dishonesty in the way they address (I won't use the word answer here) the questions. IMO Bernie is the most transparent of them all which I do respect even though I don't care for him and dislike most of his ideas/policies. But if you are open and honest there can be some kind of trust vs the shadiness we are accustomed to. For all the great many faults Trump has, this is one thing he does better than the rest, he lays it on the line, doesn't sugar coat or pander like the rest. That is to say he seems to do it the least amount.
Everytime I hear a politician use the word integrity (or similar) I throw up in my mouth a little.
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@Greyparrot
it's not who would you invite but rather what questions would you ask, fail to answer directly gives increasing levels of electric shock.
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@Lucy
Does this mean people who are born that way have bodies that are wrong and we should try to "fix" them?
so the "perception" is someone doesn't think they are the sex they were born with, yes that would be an issue/abnormal, try to "fix" them, people can choose to do whatever they want imo, generally, but I'm not paying for it.
If an intersex person identified as female and asked you to use she/her pronouns, and she had both sets of sex organs, what would you do?
can you give me an example of when talking to a person you'd refer to them with a pronoun vs their name? Like the conversation we are having, I can't imagine an instance where I would use a pronoun directed at you, that's just not how language works.
why do chromosomes determine one's gender as male or female?
yeah typos happen, I'm not a geneticist but until recently that is how it's been, it is binary, as are the chromosomes, barring abnormalities.
Gender has some element of performance to it.
agreed
It seems to me that in a case like the above, it's acting like the gender that you're assigned at birth that's a charade.
you can "perform" the role w/o surgery, dangerous hormones etc, so if that's something someone wants to do, do it. All animals afaik we've identified as male/female in some species the females is dominant and the leader so roles doesn't really mean much to me, however it is binary as there are only males and females normally. Animals are classified male/female based on physical and genetic characteristics.
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@Lucy
some males do not produce sperm, and some females do not produce eggs.humans with extra chromosomes,
those are abnormalities, birth or other defects so....
if you'd like to say trans people are abnormal I would agree with that, but to say one can claim to have male dna and sex organs, or female if you like, which ever they were not born with, just isn't possible.
changing or attempting to change outward physical appearance is just that, changing to something it was not originally.
do you deny that xx chromosome is a male? you can't change that. again trying to alter physical appearances doesn't make you what you have attempted to emulate, it's fake.
females have evolved and are physically designed to carry babies.
saying a "man" gave birth is stupidity, hypocrisy or comedy.
You are free to play whatever role you wish, I don't really care, but it is a role just like an actor pretending to be something or someone they are not. If that makes you happy, good for you, but don't expect or demand I accept the charades.
do you have a clitoris? you do not because that is a female physical trait they are born with, barring any abnormalities, obviously there are many other female only parts that you could never have. So you are still a male acting/pretending to be a female, which is fine, I don't care how you live your life, I really don't, just don't expect me to go along with it. You will never, ever have to worry about cervical cancer, you'd never need a pap smear, but rather a prostate check.
Blair White is the closest I've seen that could really pass, and yes he/she makes an attractive looking female (he/she is very smart too) But he/she also will never have all those things I've talked about. But how he/she lives isn't my concern until or if it involves me somehow.
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@HistoryBuff
You are afraid that poor people getting healthcare might cause a line that you would have to wait in
oh no you are mistaken, it won't be me that has to wait in line(s) but it will be many other people, for me it's because of who I know, for the rich, well they have money so it won't impact them (search medical tourism) Nope the people who are struggling right now or close to it, those are the ones who will be negatively impacted.
I'll ask again
Currently
Do you think there are enough Doctors, Hospitals and Hospital workers? (nurses etc)
How about things like scans, xray, physical therapy, mental health?
would reducing costs cause it to be used more?
If something has a higher demand many things need to happen to meet that demand. More employees for instance, more hospitals, state of the art equipment etc etc
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@Imabench
probably the best candidate to support if your primary concern is healing the divide between the Left and the Right that has ripped open in recent years.
that is a huge consideration to me
the divide will never be healed imo, it could have, but it's much too late for that now. There could have been an epiphany when Trump was elected, but instead terms like deplorables, uneducated etc were tossed out so easily and calously. Still they have learned nothing from that. Given recent talk from the likes of Beta aka Robert Francis it's as if they want a civil war. Make no mistake it will happen if they push that kind of agenda.
Unless the gun confiscation is just more pandering that is. Warren, while hasn't been as obvious as Beta, her "ideas" rank right up there with his, she just won't come out and say she will send the feds to your house if you don't comply. But I digress, perhaps a discussion on the divide might be interesting.
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@HistoryBuff
You seem to not want any left wing plans that would improve things
if you go back and read what I wrote that may help
the left wing plans will not improve things and would probably make things worse for the very reasons I have already stated and many that I have not.
I would encourage you to search this topic and read the lengthy discussions many of which I have participated in. I'm not inclined to do all the work I have already done numerous times when it can be found.
I don't need a better idea to point out one that is bad.
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@Imabench
I didn't know that about Klobuchar, your description, that could definitely sway me.
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@Greyparrot
wow!
must be rough trying to confess to save whatever career you might have left after lying for so long and doubling down on it.
I like using the word perceive instead of assume, like there's much of a difference.
Jordan Peterson A+++
I've watched that one a few times :)
spot on, I wasn't actually saying anything but pointing out the consequences (potential)
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@HistoryBuff
I laid out what I ASSUMED your argument to be
There fixed it for you
I believe we should deal with the entire problem. Why would I advocate for only helping a tiny percentage of children when I can advocate for helping all of them?
sure all or nothing, I got it the first example you gave.
based on the concept that healthcare is a right.
it's not a right
Do you support a government plan to provide healthcare to every single american?
nope, it's not their job nor within their scope of practice, they will not do a good job at it. My opinion is based on past performance which is limited. Expanding it to all would magnify the incompetence and inefficiency that already exists. There is no reason to believe otherwise other than to take it on faith.
Do you have some other plan that would accomplish this?
if your car breaks down, doesn't work properly, do you just run out and buy another car? Do you replace the whole motor rather than just what is needed?
What I want to hear from anyone, party is irrelevant, is Here are 20 things that will cut spending by x, reduce costs of x without increasing debt and there is no way the other party can't vote yes for them.
Hand up not a hand out
How about making it easier for charities? Real ones not like the bull shit clinton foundation, notice how the donations all but dried up once she was defeated, gee I wonder why.
Let's not spend millions on studying how shrimp walk and instead put that into healthcare.
Let's stop giving billions to countries that hate us and put that into healthcare.
You see the wheel doesn't need to be reinvented.
I know, such a monster huh.
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@Imabench
If only the money could be taken out of politics :(
Clinton did Gabbard a huge favor lol I kinda like Gabbard more than I did and we know more about her.
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@Imabench
it's really sad no one is willing to advocate for fixing the current system, Obamacare was shoved down everyone's throat, billions on a website fail etc, a real mess that didn't need to happen. A much better and far less complex fix could and should have been done.
IMO Obamacare was less about helping people and more about self and party promotion which is a shame. Government parties no longer want to share credit for good things, therefore we really don't get good things, not like we should.
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@HistoryBuff
You are advocating for poor people to get sick and die.
since this is the 2nd time you've said this and I asked you to show where I said any such thing and you didn't because you can't because I never said anything like that, I view you as a liar.
I don't have the resources to resolve the problem. Anything I could do would be a band-aid.
you could sponsor 1 child or add to what is already donated to "resolve the problem" of a few people. guess it's an all or nothing thing for you.
The government can resolve the issue entirely.
LOL yeah I hear they've been doing a great job with the V.A. and medicare, they do deserve the whole thing from doing such a good job with those.
1) you disagree with medicare for all because you think it would be too expensive and might increase wait times.2) you would prefer to leave things more or less the way they are now.
wrong yet again
I've long advocated in many, many threads that the system needs to be fix,changes made etc, most of which means LESS government.
in the current system millions of people die from not receiving proper care.
citation?
Millions more go bankrupt trying to afford the care they need to survive.
citation for that one too
your argument is that you want poor people to not be able to get care (thus killing or bankrupting them) so that you don't have to wait a little longer.I am simply laying out what you are advocating for.
your assumptions are so far off the mark it makes you look kinda dumb to be honest, perhaps calm down, put your emotions in check, take the blinders off and read the words written in front of you without injecting your emotional knee jerk response to them.
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@HistoryBuff
Are are attempting to shift the conversation and the responsibility.
you called me a monster, I'm telling you to take a good look in the mirror, if you want to claim some kind moral superiority then I expect you to live like it, which obviously you don't.
You are advocating that poor people shouldn't have healthcare.
I am? where did I say any such thing?
do you understand what cause and effect are? If you could ever learn to tame your emotions you'd understand that is exactly what I have presented. Because you lack self control you resort to personal attacks and name calling. Your emotional appeal is getting childish.
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@HistoryBuff
You are arguing that bad things would happen if this was done.
if you consider increased costs, wait times etc "bad things" that's up to you, I presented them as facts, whatever emotional tag you want to put on them is all you.
But you see that as irrelevant?
yes other countries are irrelevant to me generally speaking, problems are unique and so are solutions.
You want poor people to not be allowed to have healthcare so you don't have to wait in a line.
never said that, please control your emotions
You are advocating for people to die for your convenience.
no your emotions are making you think that erroneously.
How much of your money do you donate to places like Bradley free clinic or St. Judes? They save lives do they not? Do you waste money on things like video games or other useless entertainment to amuse yourself instead of saving lives? Are you a monster?
you should only spend money on things you need to survive, don't you care? Ohhh but that's different right?
Why stop at healthcare? Don't people need food and shelter?
Stop letting your emotions control you, you should try harder to control them and see things how they actually are.
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@HistoryBuff
lol I don't care what other countries do or do not do, it's irrelevant to me.
another appeal to emotion and no denial of what I presented, duly noted.
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@HistoryBuff
facts don't care about your feelings
the wait and cost will increase for everyone, how you got just the rich out of what I said is pure emotion which is blinding you to the facts.
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@HistoryBuff
let me be pragmatic and let's take any emotion out of this.
Currently
Do you think there are enough Doctors, Hospitals and Hospital workers? (nurses etc)
How about things like scans, xray, physical therapy, mental health?
would reducing costs cause it to be used more?
If something has a higher demand many things need to happen to meet that demand. More employees for instance, more hospitals, state of the art equipment etc etc
This is why I don't believe it will save individuals money but rather cost them more, increase wait times and create shortages. I can't see any other outcome.
Our current system is already under a great deal of strain trying to meet the demand and they want to increase the demand? How do you square that circle?
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@HistoryBuff
you will no longer be paying co-pays, premiums etc.
but that's not how medicare currently works, there are out of pocket expenses and premiums, heck if you want prescription drug coverage that's a totally different policy, it's an addon.
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@HistoryBuff
If family separation, kids in cages, drinking out of toilets, if those things were real, wouldn't they and shouldn't they take precedence over the g7 issue which became a whole lot of nothing? would that indicate some really warped sense of importance? either that or it just wasn't a real issue, it has to be one or the other.
Same thing with the Muller report (insert cricket noise here)
They need to shitcan Shift, however you spell that dumbasses name. Talk about counterproductive. He's "evidence" that he never produced etc, cry wolf, that's all this is becoming because of him.
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Here's what I think of the top 3 on these issues.
1= serious, believes in it
2= semi serious, semi pandering
3= doesn't really believe, pandering
Bernie Medicare for all 1
Reparations 2
Eliminating student debt 1
Biden Medicare for all 2 (mostly because of Obamacare)
Reparations 3
Eliminating student debt 3
Warren I would rank her same as Biden
those seem to be the main issues I think, feel free to add.
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@SirAnonymous
very informative, based on that I could see providers essentially creating their own "union", that has been done and threaten before. Can you imagine?
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@HistoryBuff
the unions don't seem to be a fan of medicare for all, one less thing they can negotiate for, it would weaken them a great deal, good or bad it will have a big impact on them.
if it would save people money that would be front on center when they talk about it, but that is not the case, prime example is when they tried to nail down Warren on the issue, whether it will cost middle income people more or not. Obviously it will since she has yet to answer the question.
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@zedvictor4
dunno, guess I'll have to look it up, though it must be working since it's not in the news nor are "kids in cages" go figure, no more outrage, problem solved apparently lol
when you think back to all the outrage over x and yet now it doesn't even get mentioned, much like a child who's grown weary of a new toy and has found another, repeat cycle x number of times.
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@HistoryBuff
interesting, I had not looked at it the way you described, I could see it being less for those who pay a high price for healthcare, but certainly for those who do not, like many government employees for example, that will be an increase for many others. Essentially I see this as a spread the wealth scheme.
But setting that aside. I would like to see much stronger/better standards for anyone running for any public office. No more "you have to approve it to know what's in it" kind of b.s. It will never change, I am realistic about that. Not as long as you can successfully pander and lie to the right demographics to get elected. It's a shame really, but it's what has been allowed and the new norm. It's just so perplexing to me the large portion of the population that believes the lies and fake promises of people running for office. There must be a few who are trustworthy, can't really think of any, they should be the majority, but I don't believe they are.
I feel we are always left with the choices of who is the least objectionable rather than one you can really get behind. It's not an issue of perfection but transparency and honesty. For all the things I dislike about Sanders at least he tells you how it is, more so than many past and present.
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@HistoryBuff
the first part makes a lot of sense and I agree with that.
single payer, eliminating private healthcare does not seem possible or even logical, it appears most other countries do not have that type of system.
I'll have to look but I think taxing all the companies and billionaires 100% still wouldn't be enough. Warren hasn't admitted the middle class will pay more in taxes for the medicare plan, but the fact she hasn't denied it means taxes will go up for the working class. If these plans could be covered by taxing companies like Amazon more etc then that's what they would say over and over, it would be a great selling point but that is apparently too far from reality.
Depending on the state, people earning 30-50k-ish pay about 35% taxes (medicare,medicaid etc) currently (personal experience). How much higher should taxes go up for pay for these plans? At what % would you say we'd have to stop because that's too high a % for people to be taxed at?
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The democratic presidential candidates, do you believe them, what they say, what they promise?
if so, how are these promises possible?
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@ebuc
so no other country is concerned in what is going on to do anything at all and it's all up to the U.S. to send their loved ones to potentially die, spend millions on this issue, while the rest of the world does the usual nothing, ok I understand now.
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@ebuc
are other countries getting involved to stop this? what role have they played, if any, from the beginning? is this just a U.S. problem or only one that the U.S. can solve?
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@Swagnarok
I see, yet all this time the U.N. and or other countries have done what? anything? Why is this a U.S. issue/burden?
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@ebuc
is that happening under the cease fire?
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@Nemiroff
then why are we still discussing it and why is it being debated in the news etc?
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