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@3RU7AL
Based on these cases, a "religious objection" is not taken at face value. The claim needs to be backed up with some verifiable evidence and consistency.
if a religion does not, has never and will not preform gay marriages that is consistency. your examples of individuals are more about if they actually practice or keep the religion to which they claim the ascribe to.
does the bible allow or condone homosexuality? afaik that's a big no, in which case homosexual marriage need not be mentioned, so this claim that "the bible doesn't say you can't" doesn't matter.
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@Greyparrot
obviously the whole idea is absurd, but it's also a scam, if you want to receive or don't want to pay simply submit a sample for a genetic test so you can either opt-in or opt-out, simple right?
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@Mopac
love olives, I only use olive oil
I believe soy is tied to estrogen
there's a really good keto pizza crust, not sure which one, but it uses almond flower and maybe coconut flower
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@Mopac
broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower and the like, mushrooms I really like too, watch the video "Wheat belly" and what a natural wheat plant looks like compared to what is farmed today, it's poison imo for a variety of reasons, ever watch the documentary on soy beans, and monsano's patent on the soy bean?
I wish I was more disciplined on not eating some of the stuff I do, but I love candy and coda hehehe, oh and no starches like pasta and potatoes.
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@Mopac
cereals aren't good for you that's why they add vitamins in them, she doesn't eat much carbs and neither to I, there's enough evidence that has convinced me carbs and sugars are very bad for you, I don't cut them out 100% like some people but I really try to avoid them, soy, corn and wheat, not good at all. I've learned more than I ever wanted to about this subject lol and I'm not easy to convince, unlike my wife.
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@3RU7AL
"The Bible" doesn't prohibit polygamy, and appears to endorse it.
that sounds like a statement of interpretation
By this standard, all wedding cakes celebrating marriages of divorcees ARE CONTRARY TO CHRISTIANITY.
you could be right but I know different interpretations have been taught, exceptions and allowances
I've stated repeatedly that it is a "sin" but it is not worse or more evil than any of a raft of other "sins" that these same people ignore on a daily basis.
I don't know the sin grading scale so I can't really speak on if any are worse or what level of seriousness they are ranked.
Do you believe that polygamy and monogamy are "equally acceptable"? Well they would appear to be if you only look at "The Bible".
I'm aware there was polygamy in the old testament but don't know about the new one, if it's in the new testament I don't know the specifics or context. But I don't see that as relevant because even if what you say is true about divorce we know some bible based religions don't practice that and do allow it. Those churches are still recognized as legitimate protected religions. There's no hypocrite or inconsistency test to be a protected religion, not that I know of anyway. If there was there could only be one bible religion and only one that would have constitutional protections.
is there any legal basis to the inconsistency charges you keep bring up?
to claim a legal religious objection or defense must you prove consistency with the sins you've mentioned? I'm not that familiar with the laws pertaining to that if there are any.
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@Mopac
I know my wife when she was vegan was low in vit d etc, to me any diet that requires additional man made vitamins or supplements is lacking and not natural in that God created the earth with everything we need, but don't quote me on that as I'm not well versed. Yes some can do well on any diet, there's always exceptions. Much like the iodine level of the Japanese or was it Chinese? one of them, much higher than other peoples can tolerate. Regardless of what human origin you believe in the fact is vegans are new and no fossils of vegan humans have ever been found. Learned that from a documentary I watched, they found massive bone collections in France, they were digging to put in a road.
I've also seen people go for 40+ days without eating, water only, no supplements, nothing just water. My wife will do 48 hour fasts and she says she feels great and has all this energy, doesn't work or have the same effect on me, not that I've very tried it that long. But fasting makes a lot of sense because when food was scarce or you failed hunting, you didn't eat. Anyway my wife is obsessed on this stuff so I've seen more documentaries and studies than I have ever wanted.
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@3RU7AL
There are no laws prohibiting it
there's nothing that says it's ok or even possible, unlike heterosexual marriages, so to include one but not the other can very easily be interpreted as one being possible/acceptable while the other is not. Which makes sense because of what the bible does say about homosexuality which is something you shouldn't do, or is that incorrect? Does the bible permit, endorse or promote homosexuality in the same way as heterosexuality and heterosexual marriage? Certainly if they were equally acceptable they would be right? and yet....
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@Mopac
sure and just because you can do well on a vegan diet doesn't mean our physical characteristics were developed or designed for only that diet, so the argument that others make about everyone should be vegan I don't believe at all, not even a little. While I think the carnivore diet is just as extreme as vegan some people do really well on it.
when you compare the digestive tract and other physical characteristics of vegan/vegetarian animals with those of carnivore, omnivore, humans have a closer resemblance to carnivores and some omnivores.
diets can be very individualistic as to benefits
June 18, 2003 -- Researchers have long known that a strict vegetarian diet -- one that excludes all animal products -- can lead to vitamin B-12 deficiency, and possibly heart disease. Now, new research suggests that even those who follow a more lenient vegetarian diet are also at risk.
now it would seem to me if that diet leaves the person lacking in so many important things it was not intended for humans, or that humans have never adapted to it yet. If that leaves so much lacking it doesn't seem natural or normal for humans.
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@3RU7AL
Most of religious laws are VERy specific.
yes most, not all
when marriage is described in the bible do the verses ever talk about same sex couples in an accepting way? Because it often says wives, wife, man all describing heterosexual marriage. Do you know of any verses where it's ambiguous or open to interpretation with regards to gay marriage being acceptable?
since there are specifics about heterosexual marriage, duties, responsibilities it is of importance, but I am unaware of any such instructions towards homosexual marriage, are there any?
I will assume there isn't but open to change my mind, but if there aren't any we'd have to ask why, couple of reasons I can think of, they simply forgot? not very likely, it just wasn't a thing back then and or it couldn't be a thing back then, it was not accepted, acceptable.
the bible acknowledges man and woman unions,marriages whatever in an acceptable way, but not homosexual ones that I'm aware of.
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@Mopac
like the scene from Men in Black? eat me! eat me!
If man was not designed or evolved to eat meat how come we can and do with no ill effects generally. If veganism or vegetarianism is fact based I'm not aware of the science to prove it's benefit over omnivore or most other diets that include meat.
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@3RU7AL
YOU skipped over arguments lol I've asked you very direct questions about religion and interpretation of, that you have selectively ignored for obvious reasons imo
in many threads you attack religion because it's vague,inconsistent and open to interpretation, yet in this thread you demand objective specifics, consistency and your interpretation to justify objections, though you don't believe they can exist. totally opposite of what you have said and believe typically, yeah it's me not you.
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@Paul
I've recently talked with an actual neuro surgeon aka brain surgeon who is very religious, many extremely educated people of science are also very religious.
then there's what @Polytheist-Witch which pretty much said all there is to say on the matter.
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@3RU7AL
lol keep it up, another lame attempt to dismiss and divert.
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@3RU7AL
lol you ignore most of my questions because answering greatly weakens your argument and you think that goes unnoticed? if you think you've succeeded in diverting attention away from that fact you are sadly mistaken.
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@3RU7AL
be pedantic, that's fine.
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@Polytheist-Witch
dang, can't believe I didn't think of that, well played.
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@n8nrgmi
in pennsylvania alone
so in other words the federal government doesn't need to be involved since the states can deal with the issue very well if they want to, I agree let the states deal with it.
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@3RU7AL
You should not be forced or threatened into a contract that you don't wish to be a part of, that's fascist and maybe communism.
Please explain how any form of either Fascism or Communism forces people to bake gay wedding cakes.
you being unnecessarily obstinate, highlighted for emphasis of which contracting for a custom cake in included.
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@Alec
watch the movie "ex machina"
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@mustardness
perhaps someday a food substitute will be found which will not leave people deficient in things they need like vegan diets do very often.
we could call it soylent green
if there was a meat replacement which was equal in nutrition, cost and taste then I would use the replacement, but until then.....
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@Snoopy
I see a vast difference between humans and animals, far more than any similarities. Apparently some would see humans and animals as the same. I will respect their agency as soon as they show it and grant them their rights as soon as the ask me to.
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@mustardness
The more guns { weapons M.A.D. aka NUTs } in existence the easier is for humans to get shot intentionally or by accident.
how much does the chance to get shot if the number of guns which is about 400 million goes up to 550 million? how much will that increase the odds?
If #of guns = chance to get shot, then why, if # of guns goes up, # of people being shot is going down?
guns increase while murder rates decrease, explain.
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@3RU7AL
Please present any Church doctrine that prohibits selling and making things for sinners or gays. Show me the text.
afaik the bible is mostly written/interpreted from dead languages in subjective stories and teachings is it not? How specific is the bible anyway? what % would you say that the bible is specific and NOT open to interpretation.
When you say "conscience" it certainly makes it sound religious...
do you not have a conscience?
If you buy Sea Monkeys, aren't you either directly or indirectly supporting the KKK?
if you interpret it as such then yes, and it's your choice as to support it or not if you view it that way, but that's a decision up to the person to make and not be forced on them by someone else.
all these things only have value or meaning of which we ascribe to them, which is based on the individual, context and all, consider words which have been misused and taken out of context for such a long time they are now considered a pejorative, when in fact the proper and actual use isn't.
If I ran a catering company, or rented event space TO THE PUBLIC, and I was asked to serve an obvious KKK event (they usually don't tell you upfront), I would either close my business, simply refuse to serve them (and run a pretty small risk of being sued) [LINK] OR, OPEN A PRIVATE CLUB.
yes that is your choice as I have stated many times, no one is forcing you to do that. You should not be forced or threatened into a contract that you don't wish to be a part of, that's fascist and maybe communism.
there are numerous restrictions placed on businesses and business owners so being private or public as you say I don't find important.
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what we can agree on
criminal violence is bad we don't want it, we don't want murders and we don't want criminals to have guns.
has the Brady Bill/NICS check decreased gun crime? Doesn't look like it
But it does make it more difficult for non criminals to get guns then pre Bill/NICS
this trickle down effect of restricting guns from lawful individuals therefore reducing the number and availability of guns to criminals just doesn't work and that should be obvious.
Though there are many millions of guns and new purchases etc the crime rate generally goes down even with no new laws or restrictions. At no point is there real evidence that a law or laws have lead to a direct reduction in gun murders.
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@Snoopy
I did not know that of the geese, I have a soft spot for them and other animals that mate for life.
Animals should be treated as humanly as possible. My preference would be fish, wild caught, veganism wouldn't work for me.
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@3RU7AL
The objection wasn't based on religious reasons, BECAUSE "THE BIBLE" DOESN'T PROHIBIT SELLING OR MAKING THINGS FOR SINNERS.
is there only one interpretation of the bible? because there are numerous bible based churches, they must not agree 100% and yet they are recognized as separate and independent churches, even though they use the same book.
But it WAS NOT a victory for "religious freedom" it was a victory for "artistic expression" = "free speech".
as it should have been, thus my contention that no reason needs to be given.
The objection wasn't based on the design BECAUSE THE DESIGN WASN'T EVEN DISCUSSED.
right as I interpret it, the objection was on the intent, the premade cakes he never intended for gay weddings so I guess he rationalized that if they purchased one and used it for something other than HE intended his conscious was clear.
So basically this cake guy imagines he is personally endorsing every message on every cake he designs.
sure, whatever you create is part of you, a direct reflection of you, how could it be otherwise? People want homemade/handmade things vs machine made for that personal touch.
If you setup and cater a KKK banquette aren't you supporting the KKK, either directly or indirectly by adding your creativity and personal touch?
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@Swagnarok
hmmm
businesses need infrastructure, utilities, shipping and receiving etc. Spreading out as you described imo would require a lot more construction etc to provide adequate needs for a large business(s) when they already exist in large part in the cities and already established business districts. If there was a cost and business benefit to spread out they would do that w/o any need for intervention. Though towns, cities etc already try to entice business to them.
I'm not sure what the benefit would be for business to go into less developed area, if there are any, they will.
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@3RU7AL
Nobody's forcing you.You can just quit. Or OPEN A PRIVATE CLUB.
oh so the 2 options are quit or change my business to private, and that you don't consider force, what if I don't want to quit or open as private what then? What is your option or remedy then? Ah yes you'd force me to, but that's not force, roger that.
The design itself was never even discussed in the gay wedding case.
what difference that does make, he had a religious objection for it's intended purpose, not that he even needed to give a reason.
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@3RU7AL
right, everyone in a similar business should have that, problem solved.
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@3RU7AL
That's not what the sign said.
have you gone into any store that does custom work and expect they will do anything you want?
fine from now on everyone engaged in such business should have on their sign, "Subject to approval" problem fixed, see how easy that was?
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@secularmerlin
sure I'll try I have a couple of opinions here
if the country is to maintain Freedom of Religion then it does need certain protections in the form of objecting to things.
The bible is not objective but subjective thus open to personal interpretation generally (many different bible based religions) which must also be accepted to maintain Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech, expression etc
People should not be forced, threatened or intimidated into preforming they artistic or unique ability by the government generally speaking, if we are free and have some bodily autonomy and freedoms. Anything that I wish to create I should have total control over unless agreed upon by me. Forcing to create is akin to slavery.
So, if you would like me to create x, I will if I want to, if I don't then I shouldn't be forced to in the context of what is above. If the reason I don't want to is because of some religious objection then that generally must be accepted because of above, though I don't believe any reason is required due to slavery being abolished.
A heterosexual couple comes in, or an individual for that matter. They ask me for a cake, however the name they want reminds me of a traumatic event, should I be forced to comply anyway if I don't want to? I would say no, again regardless of a reason or lack of. I can choose not to do something in a free-ish country.
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@Snoopy
seems someone is taking lessons from mustardness
hunting is also about management and conservation, but I'm sure you know that and the statement is more to clear up some others ignorance on the subject.
If everyone was vegan, then all farm animals should/would be stopped from reproducing and eventually be extinct since they have no purpose or need, is that a good thing? dunno
being killed by a hunter is less gruesome than being killed by a predator.
I believe studies have shown there's not enough land to grow food on to sustain a total vegan population. Then we can get into the chemicals required, roundup for everyone!, and how corn and wheat are bad for humans. then there's the whole gmo issue......
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@dustryder
by that logic anyone can be included especially anyone in politics, doesn't fit what everyone considers media, except you that is.
the media interviews people and writes stores about people not just Trump, does Trump do that as well?
if he wanted examples of people who twist stories he probably would have used the word........ oh I dunno people? and not media?
get treatment for your tds, it's not too late
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@dustryder
sure cnn, fox, msn, wall street journal and Trump yup all the exact same thing, spot on, when did Trump add journalist to his resume?
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@dustryder
what I mean is the very question, very first that was asked, what don't you understand about it? what part of it are you having difficulty understanding? Is the word "media" throwing you off? Is Trump media, a newspaper?
here's what was asked in case you missed it, please show how Trump is "news media" I always thought he was a person, and the president.
Post some examples of the news media twisting words or removing context to paint a certain picture for political reasons.
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@Outplayz
generally yes, I do agree with it, almost nothing can be absolute, but I think it's pretty good.
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@secularmerlin
If the cakes in the case are significantly different in complexity then it is also untrue in a more fundamental way. But let's assume that it is true for a moment. In that case and if the cakes in the case are what he is offering homosexuals then he has ALREADY baked several gay wedding cakes and I am unclear what difference one more or less would make moralistically or theologically. It rather invalidates the religious objection if that us true.
does his interpretation of what constitutes participation covered by free speech and or freedom of religion? I think it does, so what you consider difference or complexity isn't relevant to his opinion and freedoms.
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@secularmerlin
intent and purpose.
It seems like the two projects are similar enough that you could just make a cake for a heterosexual wedding and then sell it to someone having a homosexual wedding.
they have the option to purchase one from the case, so yeah that's true in a way.
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@dustryder
it does if you consider Trump media, is he? what channel is the Trump channel? How much does the Trump news paper cost? what a douche.
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@Mopac
that's true, but if you are that deficient in important vitamins, what's that say about the diet? :)
look at animals, vegetarian animals have huge or several stomachs compared to the muscled and lean carnivores. as for the size and length of digestive tracts humans are closer to carnivores than vegetarian animals.
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@secularmerlin
lol they can identify any way they want, fine, wedding cakes for heterosexual weddings. :)
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@Outplayz
In a response to making guns, weapons in the comfort of your own home
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@3RU7AL
- If you offer one set of services to one customer, you must offer those same or equivalent services to all paying customers.
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@Snoopy
Guess what, you aren't entitled to other people's work.
thank you.
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@3RU7AL
OR OPEN A PRIVATE CLUB.
Private vs. Public Company: What's the Difference?
it's a business not a club
The only custom cake that was refused was a gay cake.
sure but it is my belief he has the right to not do something with his creativity, artistry etc if he doesn't wish to
Creating a wedding cake with two boy names on it is not dramatically outside the norm.
but obviously it is because gay marriage is a very new thing
Offering limited service based on a "protected class" is still discrimination.
ok but that's not what he was doing, he was limiting events he would labor for.
Trying to split a hair between "gay person" and "gay wedding" is a distinction without a difference.
one is a noun the other a verb, you don't have to have a gay wedding, afaik you can not stop being gay, or do you think being gay is a choice? because marriage and weddings are a choice, if you think being gay is one as well that could take things in a different direction.
Or he could have made some reasonable accommodation. He could have discussed the cake design, and perhaps asked them to add the names to the cake later or something.
I don't recall the specifics but that sound very familiar like that was offered, but I'm not positive on the details.
If you want to hand-pick your customers OPEN A PRIVATE CLUB.
are things like the blacks only online dating etc private clubs?
If you are OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, then you should act as a mercenary and make anything that someone can pay for.
I would
If you can't serve the public, then don't open a business that is open to the public.
there are plenty of business that have restrictions, age being one, female only areas at the gym etc.
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