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@Undefeatable
What's your favorite color, music genre, and food?
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@Elminster
Yeah, see you are using what's called a "No true Scotsman's man" fallacy, they can just use what's called Cognitive dissonance, they just believe I'm inherently sinful and I don't choose to do that specific sin. Its not that difficult
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@Elminster
That's a blanket statement and false, I was raised Orthodox, most of my friends, and all of my family are. I was able to convince 90% of my friends, a few family members before I ever came out.
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@Elminster
I realize, at least with Mopac and Tradesecret, however there are a multitude of religious people who acknowledge the fact that you don't choose to be gay.
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@Mopac
But it doesn't do all of those things, why is it better for the environment? They would still need to grow food and feed the people or else they would starve to death, they would still need to power the simulations which would cause more pollution, as well as it being impossible, and not to mention it doesn't minimize suffering you are just asserting that.
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@Mopac
I don't believe in a soul no, and you have no evidence for literally any of your claims
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@Dr.Franklin
Because - if a large non-married, and non-abusive portion of homosexuals are being unaccounted for, then the numbers in favor of said abuse will be exaggerated, not to mention, you still haven't even addressed an of my other arguments.
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@Mopac
The matrix specifically is oppressive and literally a secret evil organization, first of all - this is literally impossible, to stop the degradation of the human body while not in use, second of all, if it wasn't impossible and people consented, then yeah its fine.
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@Mopac
Haven't proven an of this, the psychologists and the geneticist disagree with you bud.
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@Mopac
First of all, did you ignore the "minimize suffering" part, maybe in the short course they will be, but in the immediate long run they will be several negatively impacted. The drugs can hurt them if fed to much to keep them happy, drugs respond differently to different people, while they can have a broad category of effects, its the subtle ones you have to watch out for. You don't seem to factor in nourishment, physical decay, etc, etc, you are wrong..
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@Stephen
You misquote me, and leave out entire sections of sentences, I am not interested in having a conversation with a dishonest person, who makes up for their lack of logic with straw men. Try again.
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@Tradesecret
Until you can learn to remove the stick from your arse, and actually engage my arguments and evidence, this conversation is through. I'll respond if you consider my evidence, or provide a valid counter source or a mass critique with quotes to prove you aren't taking it out of context. Until then, have fun being unreasonable with yourself.
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@Tradesecret
You literally ignore all of my evidence, did you even read it? Are you just so delusional that you ignore evidence when it's presented to you?
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@zedvictor4
I suppose so, but I also suppose you've never studied ethics? As humans ourselves, we ought to value that which can benefit us, blah blah, I've explained it a thousand times. The standard I'm using is objective (or as close as we can get) it's just not connected to moral objectivism. However I am also somewhat of a pragmatist, without any moral structure at all society would collapse, which is also a really good reason to support mine. The only assumption it's based on is that we should care about humans.... considering we are humans, I feel it's pretty good.
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@Tradesecret
The naturally occurring argument proves far too much and therefore is a false argument. It implies that everything that occurs within the animal kingdom is ok and normal. Yet we know that is not true - which is why I referred to pedophilia in the animal kingdom, and incest and murder and cannibalism - all occurring within the animal kingdom. It is incorrect to link what the animal kingdom does with what is ok and normal in the human kingdom. They are quite distinct.
That would be a straw man - my argument is that just as humans don't choose, neither do animals, and you still have failed to address 90% of my evidence for anything. I will not respond to your unproved arguments until you do so in a satisfactory way or you concede the point.
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@Tradesecret
Did you just ignore literally all the other evidence I've shown you? Here is another study proving my point:
Testimony is unreliable:
You're a lawyer, right? Then you must know how easy it is for witnesses to get details wrong, and how unreliable eyewitness testimony is by itself, what is this? Do I have more scientific proof? Yup!More? Why didn't you just ask!That's not satisfying enough to compel you? Here's some more!Anxiety / Stress Reconstructive Memory Weapon Focus Leading Questions (Loftus and Palmer, 1974)
Additional evidence for homosexuality being a biologically determining factor:
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@Tradesecret
How does that go beyond common sense? Explain yourself by more than just a "testimony" that isn't valid evidence in any way but circumstantial. Only in cases where the proposition is necessarily dependent on testimony to exist to build a case is it definitive. Whenever we have actual scientific data, we prefer that.
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@Tradesecret
A study which proves nothing
How so? There is a clear conclusion included in the study, can you simply not comprehend not being a homophobe?
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@Tradesecret
Here's yet another study about not choosing to be gay:
You are simply wrong, if you don't understand this one, stop relying on only your own experience and do some research please.
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@Tradesecret
Did you not see my three sources that disprove eye witness testimony as reliable? You say its uncompelling but you don't actually provide any points, you don't understand it and it makes you feel uncomfortable that something you thought was true, such a major paradigm is actually incorrect. That your beliefs and opinions are being left behind for actually being correct about something.
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@Tradesecret
It is whenever you feel favorable for a person for no other reason than the attraction stated: so sexual attraction would be to gain a favorable or pleasurable feeling from sexual qualities of that person, such as body shape, attractiveness, etc...
A romantic attraction is based on: Romantic feelings or the personality of the other people,
and so and so forth
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@Tradesecret
This is untrue, there are lots of things you don't control in your body, most of your consciousness isn't actually controlled by you. Why you want or are compelled by things aren't controlled by you, the rate that your heart beats isn't controlled by you, the expansion rate of your lungs isn't controlled by you, when you get random erections, those aren't controlled by you. There are so many things you have zero control over. And telling yourself the lie that you do is nothing but unreasonableness and stubborn want for a place where scientific literature didn't surround us.
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@Tradesecret
I've already proven how it's unreliable, especially without other arguments backing them up, and that literally told you about the gene that likely makes me attracted to males and females. You have not actually proven anything, nor made any compelling counter-arguments, my age here isn't relevant nor is it something I care to share with you in particular. Of course, you could always just look at my profile, but I suppose that must be hard to do from your glass castle.
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@Tradesecret
You take the view? You aren't convinced? None of these are actual counter-arguments to correlate your opinions. They are literally just opinions. Nor have you actually rebutted my evidence, you are blatantly being unreasonable now.
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@Tradesecret
You're a lawyer, right? Then you must know how easy it is for witnesses to get details wrong, and how unreliable eyewitness testimony is by itself, what is this? Do I have more scientific proof? Yup!
More? Why didn't you just ask!
That's not satisfying enough to compel you? Here's some more!
Juries tend to pay close attention to eyewitness testimony and generally find it a reliable source of information. However, research into this area has found that eyewitness testimony can be affected by many psychological factors:Anxiety / Stress Reconstructive Memory Weapon Focus Leading Questions (Loftus and Palmer, 1974)
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@Tradesecret
(Also you're arguing from personal incredulity, which isn't valid)
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@Mopac
No. Instead of trusting the wacky pseudo-psychology that is you, I'm going to trust biologists and psychologists on this one. You are wrong. We have attractions and compulsions that come to us independent from our will, now, we can choose to act on those attractions and compulsions, but we can not choose to feel them. You are just wrong.
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@Tradesecret
No its not - it's really not - pedophilia is a psychological condition like depression or psychopathy and we ought to prevent people with it from acting on their desires. You do not choose to not be attracted to children, you passively aren't.
If you aren't convinced by that study, then I should ask that you give this book a read documenting how naturally occurring homosexuality is and how it is biologically determined factor in populations in order to reduce overpopulation and such
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@Tradesecret
You are biologically wrong - you use nothing but an anecdotal example to prove your point
You do not choose who you are attracted to - if you can - I have no clue how to do that. I choose to pursue relationships with others, but even when I am dating someone I still feel attraction for others, maybe not romantic attraction, but I don't choose to feel attraction for anyone. You really don't know what you're talking about here.
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@Sum1hugme
Pleasure and pain of humans, or well being I suppose you could say (I kinda already explained all of it in the first page, but here we go again)
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@Mopac
If you wanted to save one person and you ended up killing several, then ends do not justify the means.
If you had to destroy millions of dollars in property to end systemic racism, then ends do justify the means.
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@Mopac
What? No, all being homosexual is, is having a sexual attraction to males whenever you are one yourself. You can be gay and never have sex. I do not choose to be attracted to guys, I just am.
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@Mopac
Not all of the time. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
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@Sum1hugme
I'd say yeah. Not to say intentions don't matter at all, but if something good comes out of neutral or selfish intentions that's not a bad thing.
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@YeshuaBought
Does she though?
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@Elminster
Honestly I could deal with a lot of the things there, but
choosing to be homosexual
I don't choose to be homosexual. Full stop.
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@Elminster
Which would still be a problem, having to "repent" to someone with no moral authority for something that isn't actually immoral. That's still a bad thing, ignoring the fact that Jesus says contradicting things about the old laws. My point is - most people look at the 10 commandments and say that they are rules needed to be followed, regardless if god forgives you of them or not, why are any of the other rules not included in this treatment? Why is it only the 10 commandments that are like this? Arbitrary cherry picking
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@bmdrocks21
For America perhaps, literally any other country with people who's Overton window isn't shifted to the right super far he's moderate (Just like the rest of the world uses metric, the rest of the world is also waaay less shifted right in political outlook)
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@Mopac
I'm legitimately confused, do you mean the people doing the make America straight again people? Because I would agree, but it still a valid example of bigotry
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@Dr.Franklin
What do you mean, "Doesn't explain." I literally explained it to you: First of all - if there was a large amount unaccounted homosexual's then the proportions would be lower, the fact that it's a catholic organization makes it inherently biased against homosexual people, etc, etc
Actually provide a counter-argument or concede please, because at this point you are just in denial that you're wrong.
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@Mopac
Which I disagree with by the way, even if anybody said yes, I wouldn't have thought you monsters. I have a very simple reason for that, this isn't really about me, it's really about the case of moral authority, unfortunately, I've only gotten it down to there with one person. As for bigotry, I am very justified in trying to fight against that: https://www.facebook.com/events/2267709136662741/
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@Vader
Are they not valid? That's where the 10 commandments come from? Why are those verses any less valid than the verses declaring those 10 commandments, or any other story that is located in the old testament?
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@Stephen
Or he was lying, as all prophets did, which was my point. (Me)Which ones and what did they lie about? (You)What did prophets lie about? Hearing a god, blah, blah, blah, (Me)Not very helpful. Which prophets were lying and what do they say they were hearing, did they say they heard god tell them to execute homosexuals? (you)
Each and every single prophet who claimed to have heard god's voice, see god, or interact with her at all. They were all obviously lying to not mentally capable at the time they claimed they did so
and I frankly don't care what apologists or the bible says,Then why the Fk are you here whining and whinging and crying about god wanting you dead etc etc. FFS man or woman, if your going to start a thread about your fkn hangups with what god says about you and or homosexuals then have the decency to engage.
Whining? I'm asking a question and only a handful of people are actually answering my question. I was genuinely interested in what people would say and how they would justify it. Also, not just me, are you not concerned with the turn America straight again things that have been going on for a while now? Literally, advocating to kill gay people? This is not about me, this is about gay people in general, making it about me was solely to smoke responses out.
the bible gives god moral authority,Yes the bible does, This would be the the book that the Reverend Tradesecrete says "cannot cause anything". The book that was "breathed" in existence by god himself, by all accounts
First of all, this phrase is only sensical in context with the rest of my sentence, instead of being a jerk and trying to isolate things like it would make it counter to the point, you actually take things into context. The comparison is that the bible gives god moral authority but does not justify it beyond, "I am god and I created you" and all of that.
but in reality she has none.well there are a few million Christians will give you an argument there.
So? They will have to make a valid argument before I care. Why don't you? If you want to point this out, unless its semantic, and you really don't have one.
Therefore it is not ane execution just because god commands it. An execution is a just killing by the state.It is as someone has explained already. If your found guilty of the behaviour that is an "Abomination" to god - which you are by your own silly self confession ( ask a good religious defence lawyer here #20) then you will be sentenced to death and killed by the state under gods commandment, in those ancient times. But lucky for you, you are saved . But not because the lord god Jesus has changed his mind as some will have you believe,( god never changes his mind according to Christians) no, it is because we now have had a reformation and have commonsense and common law .
Let's break this down shall we:
If your found guilty of the behaviour that is an "Abomination" to god - which you are by your own silly self confession
Except here - god is both deciding if I am innocent or guilty while simultaneously acting as a judge where you are assuming she has authority that not been demonstrated. Also, by my own silly confession? What does that mean? Am I supposed to lie about being gay? Do you think I should be ashamed of being gay? I can't tell if you're unreasonable or homophobic, both I guess.
( ask a good religious defence lawyer here #20)
The problem there is an assumed authority, which no one has demonstrated thus far.
then you will be sentenced to death and killed by the state under gods commandment, in those ancient times. But lucky for you, you are saved
So? If I don't recognize the state's authority to execute then it doesn't matter, not to mention that god is the foundation of their laws there, in both cases it's still not execution.
But not because the lord god Jesus has changed his mind as some will have you believe,( god never changes his mind according to Christians) no, it is because we now have had a reformation and have commonsense and common law .
Common sense and common law? Those aren't really good phrases to counter the supposed divine authority of god. Honestly half of your rebuttal is confusing nonsense which you seem to get from fallacious reasoning and logical flaws.
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@Vader
Uuuuh..........
"when God called forth his people out of slavery in Egypt and back to the land of their forefathers, he directed them to kill all the Canaanite clans who were living in the land (Deut. 7.1-2; 20.16-18). The destruction was to be complete: every man, woman, and child was to be killed. "
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@FLRW
Huh that's some interesting research I hadn't looked into, thanks for the source start, I'm definitely going to look into that.
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@Stephen
What did prophets lie about? Hearing a god, blah, blah, blah, and I frankly don't care what apologists or the bible says, the bible gives god moral authority, but in reality she has none. Therefore it is not ane execution just because god commands it. An execution is a just killing by the state.
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@SirAnonymous
Or he was lying, as all prophets did, which was my point.
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@Stephen
My point is that the god of the bible has no moral authority, therefore anything they commanded would be similar to a mob boss commanding their goons, to say: murder
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@Username
To be honest, yes I have studied philosophy, but mostly on rhetoric, logical structure, logical fallacies, and stuff that of that nature, not as many metaethics as I would like to study.
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@Username
Almost? Like, yes, I want to maximize well being, but I also want to minimize the amount of suffering people take.
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