Tradesecret

Conservatives confessed homosexuality is sinful. Badness is a human word. Conservatives have always loved everyone. Liberals accepted everyone except the conservatives. 

I don't love anyone.  I don't love strangers.  I wouldn't send money to a stranger, so I don't love them.  It sounds kindof socialist.

I think if God didn't exercise judgment on a godly basis that he would not be God and in fact would be a liar.

I hope God changes his laws.

At the end of the day, whether you worship him or not, you are under his jurisdiction. 

If his jurisdiction burns people in hell forever, he is unfit for worship.  When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.

 I think the American Constitution was a product of its time and betrayed Christianity. 

Do you support theocracy?  Yes or no.

Just like at the end of the day, you are under the jurisdiction of the American president whether you voted for him or not.  The difference is that you can renounce your American citizenship and leave the country.  

The difference is the American POTUS violates the 8th amendment way more than God does if God burns people in hell forever.

The question is not whether you are LGBT or not. It is whether you reject Christ or not. 

What does it mean to reject Christ?

Conservatives would take the view that Jesus paid for those people who trust in him but not the rest. Or they would hold to the view that Jesus paid for all, but for people to receive eternal life, they need to accept it.  

These views are identical.

The reason we worship God is not to go to heaven.

For me, it would be if I worshipped God.  Otherwise there is no point.

It is because God is God and deserves praise and adoration.  

No he doesn't if he burns people in hell forever.

Lots of people praise God with their lips but not with their hearts.  

To me, this sounds like feelings.

Damn, this god is an egotistical maniac if he wants billions of people bootlicking him.

15 years ago:

Conservatives: The bible is against homosexuality.  Homosexuality is bad!

Liberals: The bible says to love and accept everyone!

Now (or sometime in the future, but I can definitely see the trend):

Conservatives: The bible says to love and accept everyone!

Liberals: The bible is against homosexuality.  The bible and Christianity are bad! 

Me: I personally don't like Christainity and I don't consider myself to be Christain.  My main reason is that if God burns people in hell forever, I think he violates the 8th amendment (and the constitution and the bill of rights are a much better source of legal morality than Christianity and the bible) and I don't care how many Christians I piss off from saying that.  But at the same time, God saying things like, "gays are bad and I don't like them" to me is free speech.  If he advocated the death penalty for gays, I would take issue with it.  But if he says stuff like, "it's an abomination", to me, that's free speech.

But with the radical left, they don't take nearly as much issue with God burning people in hell forever, as much as they do with the bible saying things like, "Homosexuality is degenerate".

I'm LGBT, but I would rather be called degenerate than burn in hell forever under any circumstances whether LGBT or not.

I hate Christainity more over it's threats of eternal hellfire (if accurate) than I am about any anti alphabet attitudes it may have.

But everyone goes to heaven.  Jesus paid for everyone's sins, so you go to heaven no matter what.

you may say.

Then why do I have to worship God?  I'm going to heaven no matter what by your logic.

Yes, I understand - an eye for an eye.  It is not about attacking someone who attacks you. It is about fairness in the response against someone who hurts you.

So when Christians and muslims condemn atheists and trans first, it follows that exact revenge is required, making current atheists here justified in their actions.

Is this still too complicated for you?

When did I defend any condemnation of trans people? 

Right a comment ago, and one more comment ago, and one more comment ago.

Did you change your mind? Do you now think that Bible is wrong and that trans shouldnt be condemned or judged?

Common, make up your mind.

at least attempt to prevent Brother or Stephen from their attacking and criticism and condemnation

No, I think they are beneficial to the site, since they mostly debate Christians and muslims. You do understand how Lex talionis works? Your God used it in the Bible, so the idea of you pretending to be some innocent victim while being the first to attack is absurd, but Christianity itself is absurd ideology.

Condemnation DOESN'T cause suicide.  

I have already provided you studies which show that condemning trans increases their suicide rate. I know that you reject science. Its obvious.

I provided two examples.

So you dont even understand how statistics work?

Every Christian rejects science.

You know when you teach your kids that being gay is abomination? That being trans is abomination?

What happens next is that your kids then go and bully trans kids because you brainwashed them to do so.

Of course, you cant understand this and you cant understand how condemnation causes suicides.

Honestly, your comment is filled with too much stupidity, so I dont see a point wasting my time trying to correct your every error. You will just come back again in a few weeks saying same nonsense. Its not worth the effort on my side, so I picked your dumbest point and lets see where that takes us.

"The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/

"“While [ages 15-17] can be an exciting time, it is also very stressful, as adolescents experience a lot of peer pressure and can feel very isolated. This is especially true for those who express gender and sexuality in a nonconforming way.”"

"“[W]hile bullying and cyberbullying is an important factor, it is not the only factor. Other factors related to feeling supported at home, at school, and in their communities are likely also very important.”"

"Overall, Dr. Colman said his team’s findings clearly show that gender and sexual minority youth need better support.

“They need safe places where they can explore and express their true selves,” he explained. “Furthermore, they need to be consulted and included when suicide prevention programs are designed. They know better than we do as to what will serve them best.”"

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/transgender-teens-7-6-times-more-likely-to-attempt-suicide#Next-steps-in-research

I am surprised that Tradesecret claimed:

many people are Christians and don't believe in Hell or that God tortures people for eternity.

I mean, Hell is mentioned in the Bible, so to claim that Bible doesnt say what it obviously says... 

Might as well just make the new Bible, just this time take out all the parts which dont suit this century.

So maybe just keep nice parts of the Gospels and a bit of Acts, and some peaceful parts of the Old Testament. Thats the only way Bible fits modern times.

homosexuality is still considered sinful

Social condemnnation causes suicide, so its same as killing. New Testament condemns homosexuality.

Christians don't want to kill trans.

Yet they condemn them all the time, increasing suicide rates, therefore killing them.

The Bible is clear about this - that rape is wrong and sinful

You do realize that Bible Old Testament forces victim to marry her rapist? And Bible New Testament says that husband has a right to rape a woman because her body doesnt belong to her. I am pretty sure you know what I am talking about.

Many Christians don't believe it is ok to beat children.

So many Christians refuse to follow the Bible?

What I want to do is not necessarily what is the best thing to do.

Yeah, so you cant know if thinking that you are a sinner is the best thing you can do.

I am not Christian because:

1. I dont want to kill gays.

2. I dont want to kill trans.

3. I dont want to praise a God who after creating people, tortures those people by burning them alive for all eternity.

4. I dont think its okay to rape women.

5. I dont think it's okay to beat children.

6. I dont want to live a life thinking that I am a sinner just because I was born.

Now, I was thinking,

What would happen if someone accepted "Its wrong to kill others" as his moral value?

He would be banned from killing even in self defense. He wouldnt be able to kill anyone under any circumstance. 

Was this Jesus's morality while he was on Earth? Jesus did not kill any other person, but he did kill animals and he did damage property.

However, even when faced with torture and death, he refused to kill those who wanted to kill him.

So one must wonder, does Bible teach how self-defense is wrong?

And if so, why dont Christians follow that teaching?

Did you read the book of Esther?

No, but I am pretty, sure you can quote the evidence from it.

so it sounds like you use the bible to disregard NDEs. i see two problems with that.

i think you r misinterpreting the bible, cause you follow fundamentalism that says non christians can't be saved. if you look at the verses where jesus says who isn't saved, it's those who reject the light for the darkness. those who reject jesus. the bible says no where that all non christians go to hell. the good news of the gospel, is that if you are a chrsiitan, though, you will be saved.  jesus said he came to save the world, not condemn it. those who reject the light are already condemned, says the bible. i do take caution in that NDEs often make it seem like everyone is saved, when even NDEs show at least one percent of NDEs as negative, and there's lots who die and come back and dont experience anything... so i understand the need for caution.

the other thing you messing up on, is that i gave you hard science, yet, like an atheist or skeptic, you just choose to ignore it. like this thread says, it's illogical to claim i haven't presented evidence for the bible in this thread. the bible isn't the only source for evidence for the afterlife, but yes the bible is evidence too. 

your problem is that you are clinging to man made religions instead of the truth in the bible, and in science. even christians can get caught up in the pit falls of religion, dont be mistaken. 

so yes, unfortunately you are distorting truth, science, philopsphy, theology, and spirituality... for the sake of religion. 

I would appreciate the evidence.

I would appreciate the evidence.

You've said that before, that ndes don't convince you of anything. But given u believe in the afterlife to begin with, it especially don't make sense to me. Do you think it's common for people to hallucinate elaborate afterlife stories when they die, and supposedly this is meaningless? What about the fact that out of body phenomenon is shown accurate under scientific conditions? That the blind see? I wouldn't think someone who believes in the afterlife would torture their logic and all the evidence, like skeptics do.

Oh, so the fact that I say everyone is in the same boat and needs God is insulting to you? 

No. Do you have reading difficulty?

I dont mean to start any debate here. 

I am just curious as to what convinced you that God exists or if you are atheist, that he doesnt exist.

I know for atheists, there is problem of evil, and the problem of who created God.

While for religious, there is uncaused cause and the need for the creator of laws of the universe.

So, other than these, what exactly convinced you that there is God? Or if atheist, what convinced you that there is no God?

 I ACTUALLY said that atheists and non-Christians can be good people.

No.

Please copy paste part of text in post 8 which says that atheists can be good people.

I will wait.

It's an interesting series of questions that you pose here. Thanks. 

You are correct that without a set of objective standards, then anything goes.  Standards will become the domain of the powerful, the rich, or in the case of most of the West, the majority.  The question that needs to be addressed is "Who will decide what is right and wrong"?  

In the case of murder, there are plenty of reasons not to do so.  Yet, the fact it is against the law and attracts severe penalties is a huge reason not to do so. Of course not doing so, doesn't mean that most people don't dream of doing so, or would like to do so if they could get away with it. 

Concerning prostitutes, it's not against the law in most countries.  It's a question of morality and faithfulness. Exploitation tends to go both ways.  Yes, it exploits people if you use them. On the other hand, many people enjoy the work and believe it is their legal and legitimate right to use whatever resources they have to make a living. 

As to the question of people's goodness or badness, this is a vexed question.  How people understand the essence of humanity, whether individual or corporate is varied.   Take individuals like Einstein Hitler or Trump or Swaggart or Hawking. Each of them would probably say that humanity as a whole has good people and bad people. Each would probably say that sometimes "groups" of people are worse than others. Yet NONE of them would hold to the idea that they as individuals are bad. They might say that any of the others on this list are bad.  But how do they determine this value and how do they measure it? 

The Bible talks about humans pre-Fall.  It talks about them post-fall. It talks about them post-Christ. And it talks about them in eternity.  Pre-Fall, humans were good. After the Fall, ALL people were sinners. Post-Christ, ALL people remained sinners, but some were no longer slaves to sin.  In eternity, those who inherit life with God no longer sin and are perfect or holy. And those who don't inherit life become everything their heart desires per their slavery to sin. 

The doctrine of Original Sin, which many people reject or redefine depending upon your unique brand of Christianity, is the primary teaching of the Church. It teaches that people are born into sin. This was passed down to each individual from Adam. In Reformed circles (My unique brand of Christianity) we call this doctrine the doctrine of Total Depravity.   

Total Depravity doesn't mean that people are as EVIL as possible.  We don't think Atheists or non-Christians are as evil as they possibly could be. With Jesus, we agree that even evil people can do good things, such as giving bread to their children instead of stones and eggs instead of snakes.  We have no issue with people being nice people. Doing nice things for others. Loving their enemies even. Forgiving etc.  We also accept that at times Christians do horrible and evil things.  We don't condone it but we acknowledge that such things happen. 

Total Depravity means tainted by sin in every aspect of life. A good illustration I have used before is of the glass of water.  Take a glass of pure water and add one drop of oil or ink to it. Does it turn the pure water totally into ink or oil? No. But it taints every droplet of water in the glass.  The pure water becomes tainted. No one would drink it. The water becomes grey. Yet it doesn't become totally evil. Yet it is totally depraved. 

Similarly, we say every human is totally depraved. Sin taints every aspect of our lives.  Not that we become totally evil, but that we become such that we are no longer pure or holy. God won't drink us.  God of course has a purifier.  That was the cross and Jesus.  Hence those who want to be holy or purified require Jesus.  

What this means is that we don't think Atheists are totally evil. Not everyone is Hitler. (some people seem to be worse than others) Atheists and other non-Christians are able to make decent and reasonable decisions for themselves and for their children and others around them.  Yet they remain tainted by sin and this impacts everything they do. Christians on the other hand, have been redeemed by Christ, the purifier.  Yet this is firstly, a DECLARATION in heaven, and then secondly, a work in the person in life through the Spirit of God.  Justification, followed by sanctification. And then glorification.   Sanctification is the process of becoming purified on this earth. God works in us through his Word and His Spirit to make us holy on this earth. Yet, in this process, Christians sadly, continue to sin. But now they are no longer slaves to sin. And are progressing in their sanctification. Unless they are progressing, then without good fruit or good works happening, it is potentially true that their alleged conversion was more emotional or guilt manipulation or a figment of their imagination. This is why we should never try and manipulate people into the kingdom. And why such methodology actually does more harm for the church than good. Yet, it is true that the justified person is being sanctified in life, so that he or she can be glorified in heaven.  In other words, sin is a reality in this world. It exists. We see it in sickness, in death, in the corruption, in our own hearts.  Yet, in heaven, these things are no longer an issue since we have been glorified with Christ. 

These things explain why atheists and other non-Christians can do good things and not murder people. It doesn't off course reflect what is in their hearts which may well want to do these things. It also explains why Christians, even those who have been born again, continue to sin. Yet the Christian is the person who is no longer slave to sin.  Hence, why it is a bigger responsibility for him or her when they do sin.  And why the world watches with glee when the church or Christians stuff up. Christians admit to a higher moral code. This makes them a target. A great motivator not to sin.  The world doesn't need to target someone or a group who is not setting themselves as a model for others.  Atheists will never need to worry while they maintain they only have one doctrine.  Hence, why they avoid the inevitable worldview of their beliefs. They know they would become a target.  So I guess that is a smart strategy. 

These things explain why atheists and other non-Christians can do good things and not murder people.

A more simple explanation would be that atheists can be good people.

That is something your idiotic Christian brain cannot even imagine.

Yet they remain tainted by sin and this impacts everything they do.

Really? And you wonder why people insult you.

I think if you remove the objective standard of God, a case could be made for a lot different morals.

If your enemy is ruining your life, is the only thing stopping you from murdering them that it's against the law? If you feel there is a deeper truth involved stopping you, what is that basis? 

And why don't you pay for prostitutes if you are horny? I often tell people, if it wasn't for my Christian faith, I'd frequent sex workers a whole lot more. Is the idea that you feel you're exploiting them so don't do it? I think a basis could be made sometimes that it's not exploitation, but even if it was... why would you care?

n what way do you love Satan and Jesus?

I pray to both and I remember both of them often. I dont judge either of them.

Pfft. Christians don't decanonize texts just because they have become problematic to modern audiences. They deploy reinterpretation and apologetics to make the case that the texts are not problematic at all, you're just reading them wrong.

I mean, Jesus loves his enemies, so Jesus loves Satan too.

And I love them both, because they are kinda cool. Satan is cooler, but Jesus is fun too.

Okay, its no longer funny. Bye.

Dont ban BrotherD, please.

I think if this site keeps banning people, we wont have much users left.

We dont exactly have any new users coming in and sticking around.

There is a situation where enforcing rules and laws causes more damage than it removes.

Yet, you don't really have a choice

Correct. So you might wanna stop calling it "an agreement" between me and God. Really, the agreement kinda implies a choice and not "you must do things you never agreed to because of an agreement you never agreed to".

Because someone who is your representative has agreed on your behalf.

I didnt agree to that part either.

If anyone can agree in the name of someone else,

then I will be your representative now and I agree that you should give me all your money.

You are bound by the agreement now.

So not every person has AGREED.

Yeah, that was the point of what I said.

So how can I be bound by an agreement that I didnt agree to?

Do you think they are machines hidden in clouds do you? 

Well, it's not what I think, it's what people report. Stories like these are very similar to what the bible tells, which is the reason we conclude that the angels and "Gods" of the bible are actually the aliens of today. Or do you still think invisible beings will show up to get rid of the people that don't believe in your bulllshit, like me? You wish!! Hahahaha.

You are the one who talks about what translations - as per normal - without evidence. 

It would be useless to try to convince you, being you a dogmatic person that believes english is the original language of the bible. Lol. You know the original version is in hebrew and aramaic, don't you? Did you care to know what this version says? You'd better not, it would be too much for you.

Angels do have wings.

For statements like this, despite the given solid evidence, is that I don't want to discuss with zealots like you, it's a worthless endeavour. From what I've seen, I guess you're catholic, right? Did you know a catholic expert confirmed that "angels have no wings"?

news.sky.com/story/angels-exist-but-have-no-wings-says-church-10423859

Feel free to say whatever you want because I won't reply your posts anymore. You can be thinking I can't stand you but the reality is that I pity you, I wouldn't like to be in your shoes, seriously, that would be really sad.

I may have been hasty in respect to them being younger than 19-20.

Let me know when you make up your mind.

the covenant is directed at all people in the nation, not just those over the age of minority

I dont think you know what covenant means.

Neither does your God, it seems.

Covenant is an agreement. It cannot extend to those who didnt agree to it, who cant consent (cant agree).

Do you think that 10 year olds can consent?

Do you think that babies can consent?

Third, these lads act with deliberate intent

Just a few months ago, you were saying how your God doesnt consider those under 20 as responsible for their actions.

But dont worry, I had same problems when I was a Christian.

The amount of Jesus's stupidity I had to justify still hurts my brain to this day.

Happy Solstice and New Year.

Let's go slowly.

Psalm 18:10 "He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind."

The "he" refers to Yahve, so if David says Yahve mounts the cherubim (or "ride the cherubim" as it is in other biblical versions), it clearly says that he is getting on the cherubim as if the cherubim were something that flies, like a pegasus, a helicopter, or a UFO. So, what we can infer from the text is that Yahve is part of the Elohim or alien team that we were talking about, and the cherubim is the alien ship, unless you have a more convincing argument for that.

And of course the wind has no wings. It's just the way the ancient people understood their reality, or a wrong translations.

I'm going to remind you the link I provided in #53:

theologyintheraw.com/angels-dont-have-wings/

Based on this link, we could conclude the following:

1. Angels have no wings. The bible says nothing about angels with wings. The wing is just an add on from some artists who thought angels have wings just because they can fly. The wings are just part of the urban folklore.

2. The only ones that have wings in the bible are the cherubim and seraphim, but the bible doesn't say explicitly that they are angels.

3. As the church put wings on angels, they automatically categorize the cherubim and seraphim as angels. Although they are not because the bible doesn't mention they are angels or they are part of an angelical hierarchy. This is just a made-up stuff of the roman catholic church.

4. The cherubim and seraphim are machines because this is what the bible suggests. Angels look like men and interact like men, characteristics that the cherubim and seraphim lack of. So, if it's something that doesn't talk, doesn't walk, doesn't fuck, doesn't eat (like the angels), but only flies and protects a position (as if it were a war machine), we can conclude then that it's an object made for a specific goal.

Nope. There is absolutely no evidence for such a thing.  Either in Elijah's time or Jesus'. Both times were well before such things had even become part of common thought and imagination.   Why aren't there any other such vehicles that anybody has discovered? Because there was never such a thing. 

Well, it depends on what you want to do. You either study the bible with the correct translation to know the truth or keep believing what a church full of sodomites wants you to believe. It's your call and I really couldn't care less about it.

I'll answer your questions. Will you then please answer mine? 

What question? About cherubim and seraphim?

Tell me, what you understand in Psalm 18:10 "He mounted the cherubim and flew; he soared on the wings of the wind."? Does the wind have wings? Why would God need to "mount" a cherubim? Pretty weird, ain't it? 

In Ezekiel 10:15-17: "Then the cherubim rose upward. These were the living creatures I had seen by the Kebar River. When the cherubim moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the cherubim spread their wings to rise from the ground, the wheels did not leave their side. When the cherubim stood still, they also stood still; and when the cherubim rose, they rose with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in them." I don't know about you but to me the said cherubim is a machine because I've never seen it into an interaction with any biblical character like angels did. No talk, no nothing.

I can say it louder but not clearer.

So in the Bible, Elijah went up into heaven in a fiery chariot. And Jesus ascended into the clouds of heaven.  Jesus didn't have wings, but he was atypical. 

Elijah was abducted by an alien ship, so was Jesus, if he really existed of course.

The Ancient Hebrews described a bat as a bird because it flew.  They didn't use our scientific classification system.  They had their own.  

What? Hebrews knew very well that bats weren't birds. Check Isaiah 2:20: "In that day people will throw away to the moles and bats their idols of silver and idols of gold, which they made to worship" A bat is like a mole, a mammal. Ancient hebrews were primitives compared to us, but not stupid.