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@3RU7AL
it's simple if you have chick and pizza each getting 33% of the vote and also the 2 highest vote counts, you just have a run off election and people can narrow the debate down to both choices and whichever one argues their position best, gets more votes now. This way you have all the most liked candidates win, while also solving the issues of a plurality win, with a run off and mitigating all the issues with RCV
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@Tidycraft
I also heard your press is angry that a doctor is seeing your president? Why is the press angry?
This is simple. You see Biden just had a cold and jetlag and is not in fact mentally retarded due to all the dementia. People would rather trust their own eyes than they would professional journalists who have done their due diligence. Bidens team says that he has done a great job with keeping the world at peace and with inflation, that it essentially disproves the theory that we have a legit retard running the country. Also Ageism. Its ageist to have his cognitive abilities tested and Trump needs to stop hating on 80 year old men.
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@TheUnderdog
Why don't you PM me. I am pretty good at getting jobs I am unqualified for. I don't see what could be at issue here. I think I could likely help depending on what type of job you are pursuing
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@3RU7AL
you can't convince me that we are the most technologically advanced civilization on planet earthand we can't figure out how to rank 20 candidates with instant error checking and simultaneous secure data transfer
I have seen some suggestions for using blockchain technology to do this and make sure there is complete accountability and less room for voter fraud, but this is slow to correct because people fear that electronic voting is more likely to lead to election tampering and fraud. It may require a public relations campaign but also may self correct and be fixed as boomers start to die off
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@3RU7AL
T
his problem is not caused by RCV
Correct
hand recounts always take an enormous amount of time
Sure but they take even more time with RCV and have even more errors with RCV so it makes the problem even worse. You also have to realize RCV can have up to 20 rounds of voting so really its 20 recounts for each RCV election as opposed to non RCV elections.
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Things needed to address RCV issues and each one of these sub issues you would need to argue is a good ideal as well
1. replacing paper ballots
2. removing the requirements of hand counts
it would be irresponsible to promote RCV prior to this by your own logic.
The above requires changes in laws about how recounts are done and increased funding as well as law changes to make electronic voting more common than what it currently is.
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@3RU7AL
right, ballot design is a problem and has always been a problemthis is fixable
Potentially, I don't believe that was an amended rank choice ballot you showed me. We won't know what any potential fix will actually do until it is tested, but even if you fix the ballot confusion you would still have all the other problems with it, such as delayed results, incorrect results and 30k man hours to do recounts in even tiny elections with merely 50k people.
Right now by defending RCV and advocating for it to be accepted, you are not advocating for the idealized version in your head, because the implementation would be similar to what we see in san Fransisco, Minneaolois, st. Paul and in limited use cases in New York city.
I would urge you to reach out to those promoting RCV and doing the work to get it passed in different areas by suggesting your solutions to them, that way when they do push for it to be accepted in can be closer to the ideal you have in your head than the crapshoot that is currently happening.
I would caution you a bit though. A lot off the reason it won't work could have to do with the requirement for paper ballots, lack of computer based voting as opposed paper votings and the requirements of paper ballots or paper reciepts of electronic voting. Perhaps if you change paper voting and swap it for electronic voting you can get the type of voting you really want, but until then it's very irresponsible to advocate for it, in the current climate.
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@Owen_T
ideally you wouldn't mention you are the one who stole the vote as the action is sent in a PM and the vote would not have your name attached to it
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@3RU7AL
for someone who seems so interested in mitigating "low voter turnout" and "wasting the time of volunteers"
When I am making an argument listing pro's and cons am I better off including arguments that appeal to your ideology or to my own?
As long as I am being factual, I don't have to agree with a premise I present. If you disagree that lower voter turn out is bad, simply ignore the argument. I did elaborate a bit by pointing out that some people confused by it, still can make great decisions. However I think for the most part if you disagree with the premise ignore it. I gave other premises that I think should be taken into consideration and certainly ones I weigh more heavily before determining whether I would vote in favor of RCV, if the issue comes up where I live
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@3RU7AL
you can number them by preference with #1 being your first choiceOR YOU CAN DRAG AND DROP THEM IN THE ORDER YOU WISH WITH YOUR TOP CHOICE AT THE TOP OF THE LIST
That's not how it works in real life. Below is an RCV ballot
You can see how it would confuse an elderly person with bad eyesight and how a shaky hand could easily invalidate a ballot.
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@3RU7AL
ballots are designed to be counted automaticallyautomatic ballot counting takes the same amount of time regardless of the type of voting you choose
This has been disproven and in the video I bring up several real world examples of elections with only 50k votes placed being delayed by 2 weeks.
nvalid ballots SHOULD be thrown awaybut once again, automatic ballot counters fix this problem by alerting staff immediately when an invalid ballot is entered
This is not happening in the real world where RCV is implemented in the united states, so it's a moot point. We need to look at how it is implemented in the real world not in somebodys imagination.
more errors in determining outcomesthis makes no sense
Yes see the california RCV school board election referenced in my video which mentions that the wrong person was seated for 6 months before the court corrected it. Also see my citation about the democratic mayoral primary whic erroneously included 135k invalid ballots which delayed the process about 2 weeks and almost resulted in the wrong winner again. In the real world when this is implemented it causes a ton of problems.
almost nobody is counting ballots by handand when a hand recount is required, it ALWAYS takes a ridiculous amount of timeit took YEARS for the florida bush gore recount to be completed
Recounts do definitely require a hand count which is why paper ballots are required and in places where they are not required, a physical paper copy of your vote on a machine is created for accountability. In the minneapolis election cited with a mere 50k votes, a recount was required by hand and it took 30k man hours.
These people are morons if they think single-choice-voting is a good way to select leadership
Well that's how you title it, to make it sound unreasonable. The majority of people support RCV until informed of the errors and delays I pointed out and then the number drops to 25% support. I don't know that it is the idiots changing their mind when new information becomes available or if the idiots are the ones who see new information that shows why RCV is bad and then just double down because in an ideal world RCV is awesome and only their idealized vision of it is what should be counted when determining if it is good
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When Elon Musk banned people for calling Nazis white trash, you didn't care.
Okay, that didn't happen. However it also makes light of the threat of nazis and simultaneously is bigoted towards poor white people.
As a 3rd positionist, I would say that free speech should be protected even against corporations. However it is not contradictory for a libertarian to think the government should not infringe on free speech but that corporations should have the right to.
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Current Mafia:
none-
Signups:
Casey_Risk - Ace Attorney Mafia
In the Hopper:
Wylted- unhinged rants mafia (if somebody wants to skip ahead of me just PM me, I am open to that)
On Hold:
Mharman - Gunplay Mafia
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@3RU7AL
sounds like an awesome feature
It's a fair point, but if you just spent 50 years studying economics, political philosophy and policy, perhaps we could really use that wisdom for making better decisions. Them having a brain less adaptible to changes, wouldn't make their hard work at crafting a great philosophy and intuiting it wouldn't go away.
isn't one of the main arguments against democracy "average people are too stupid to be trusted with important decisions" ?
That's why we try to buffer it by electing representatives. We could do more to buffer their stupidity. However I think there is a bit of a difference between the stupidity of your average wealthy 19 year old in their ivory tower and the life experiences and collective wisdom of previous generations.
I would however be fine preventing senior citizens from voting if we also made voting illegal for those under 30. It's a good compromise because it eliminates those whose brains are not adaptive enough to deal with new situations and it eliminates the votes of those whose ideologies should still be forming and very liquid
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@3RU7AL
why make everyone vote twice ?
To encourage the winning primary candidates to have to appeal to and take into account the needs of the losers voting block
and if you're so concerned with "low voter turnout"have you seen the numbers for the primaries ?
I am not personally. I assume most people are so pointed to a fact that they could use in weighing whether RCV is worth it. It factually lowers voter turn out.
I assume primary voters are fewer than in the general election, which makes sense if you are trusting your fellow party members to make an intelligent decision and you plan to trust that decision. Perhaps you have less time to research those candidates but are fine researching the party leads . Or perhaps you are fine just voting with your party because you think the platform is aligned more with you than the alternatives.
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In if you are okay with me scaling back my activity. I cant promise I will but I will intend to keep it limited to a few high effort posts a dp, and just engagement that helps with my reads. I am falling behind on a few things
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@3RU7AL
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The primary system is fair though. It means the winning caandidate has to appeal to a larger amount of people, meaning everyone's voice gets heard.he "problem" that is solved is the elimination of the ridiculously unfair primary system
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@cristo71
to override RCV given enough numbers by only selecting one candida
This has been shown to happen with at least 35% of tickets in practice. also in practice it confuses the elderly and their votes get thrown in the trash. you can google screen shots of their ballots, real ones not the idealized versions in their head and the ballots can be very confusing
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@3RU7AL
this is a perfect example of how the LEAST HATED candidate wins
okay
now i know you're going to freak out and say "but only 3% voted for RFK as their first choice !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
None of my objections mentioned that and still stand unrefuted
nobody gives a shit about that they're not voting "for" anyone so much as they're voting AGAINST "satandevilhitler"
Yes and what public office has RFK been in for us to know he actually will do what he says?
People who have not been in public office and don't have to see the consequences of not voting for correct but unpopular views don't have to get their hands dirty and are normally favored by the population. In other words activists. RFK is an activist. We also have a situation where it is not hard to imagine a tight lipped celebrity that is popular such as the rock can just pick off votes that help the less popular candidate win.
You are kind of assuming some things here, lets look at a normal election and do some maths
Bush vs Gore vs jill stein vs gary johnson
You are imagining the following scenario
Bush- 35 %
Gore- 25%
Jill stein 22%
Johnson - 18%
You imagine a 2nd round that looks like the following
Bush- 40%
Gore- 29%
Jill stein- 31%
And a final round that looks like the following
Jill stein- 55%
Bush 45%
When a more realistic scenario would look something like this
Bush- 20%
Gore- 35%
Jill stein 22%
Johnson - 23%
second round
Instead of people's second choice being johnson we get a surprise
Gore- 51%
stein- 24%
Johnson- 25%
A better result would be a real run off election where the 2 highest candidates have a vote off. Here are the real political parties in the United states and there are 4
1. socialist
2. moderate
3. social conservative
4. Libertarian
The moderate votes are normally going to the person at the head of the other ticket. So promoting RCV as a way to basically steal elections with underhanded tactics such as creating confederate candidates to steal far left and far right votes, isn't going to work out the way you think it does, and has been conclusively proven in places that have tried RCV it results in the following
1. Delayed election results
2. lower voter turn out
3. Votes actually thrown in the trash not metaphorical such as when you vote 3rd party
4. more errors in determining outcomes
5. increased volunteer hours to count the votes
6. undermined confidence in the election process, which also harms voter turn out
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I hope we all learned a valuable lesson today. Always lynch the cop DP 1.Anyway, I returned to DART with two goals... win a game of mafia and call SupaDudz a nerd. Now that my goals have been fulfilled the time of my return is at an end.Peace out.
I am not far behind you, though I am more likely just to scale back and lean heavy on learning youtube to attract people here. I hope somebody left leaning does so as well so we don't accidentally turn this into a hive mind. I guess I could attempt to make more neutral sounding videos. I also need to see if we can get mike on board to start a red bubble shirt site, but we may have to submit designs to him. Ideally also puts a discalimer on the site, saying he owns our words and putting together some pro con books on popular topics like abortion, by stealing our content and retroactively claiming he owns the copy right
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@ILikePie5
I could see mislynching him if he stayed alive. I would like to think I wouldn't have because of my town read of him late into dp1, but who knows
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I hope savant learned his lesson about not stepping back from his read and tunneling. We were recedntly in a game where i had a hard scum read on austin, stepped away from the read and considered my options, and nothing bad happened, austin was still lynched. Take the blinders off mate
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That was definitely a nice recovery from DP1. Also savant calm the fuck down LOL
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@3RU7AL
That's interesting but exactly what I expect. I think this means the democrats should swap him for BIden but not that we should replace the current system with RCV.
First there is no evidence that he would win with RCV.
There is no evidence that if he did win that it was the best outcome.
Right now what you guys are doing is spending most of your energy on proving the current system sucks. That's not good enough however. Saying the current system sucks and replacing it with the most intuitive system is not a solution. Especially with changes that big, we often don't know what the impacts will be, so we should always proceed cautiously. However in this case we do know for a fact the results because it has been done for over a decade in Minneapolis and St.Paul with lower voter turnout, less votes counting towards the final vote count and with delayed election results and a significant drop of trust with the system once implemented.
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@Mharman
I dont even wanna ask what Wylted means by the above
I am logging off and will not be on today. I really do have to get shit done today. What I meant by appropriating white culture is that whiteflame does not rob people and that he uses the word white in his user name
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@Discipulus_Didicit
unday I arrived at a summer camp with extended family, and I spent a lot of time with them yesterday.
I appreciate that. I won't be saved tonight, but I guess I owe you one so I can trust your read here. We can handle whiteflame first and barney next
VTL whiteflame
It's kind of what whiteflame gets by appropriating white culture anyway
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@Mharman
unday I arrived at a summer camp with extended family, and I spent a lot of time with them yesterday.
Sorry, but this is a little more important than your family. Family will always be there for you but this game is temporary
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@Mharman
Really thinking a neighborization of Barney or Whiteflame would’ve been helpful last DP
unless it gives them an extra NK or something
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@Mharman
Why not?
because there is absolutely no need to until NP3 where I can use it to investigate. It gives us no advantage to use it, any time prior to NP3, but it could benefit the scum team for me to use it. Remember every time I recruit scum they get extra abilities or gifts or power or something
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@Mharman
I'm asking who you’ve neighborized so far. Please tell me.
nobody.
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here is a single source that has rounded up a lot of citations and essentially the one I referred to in my initial research.
You guys haven't come up with a single rebuttal than a single biased source that somehow claims ranked choice voting does not reduce voter turn out despite multiple sanfransisco based studies proving it does and despite minneapolis and st. Paul minnesota having lower voter turn out than surrounding areas
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@Double_R
the links work. I will make it easier though
I literally refer to the citation I am using in the video to support the facts.
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@3RU7AL
You didn't watch my video I clearly already proved my case
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@3RU7AL
explain how having to research 20 candidates is easier than researching just a few?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Whiteflame jumped on the lynch immediately after Barney specifically to negate my sensor.
that was very opportunistic as well. He tries to talk us out of the casey lynch and negates the censor. I am down
vtl whiteflame
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@Mharman
scum pool is whiteflame and barney, so i can go along with the whiteflame lynch. I am not sure what I prefer but we bought ourselves an extra dp which is great
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Whiteflame jumped on the lynch immediately after Barney specifically to negate my sensor.
He also gave pushback against casey lynch by correcting me on how restless spirit worked, and both his vote and barneys looked very awkward. Pie did notice that has justification was sus though. however i can see givinf multiple town members a cop ability even if just 1x to counter Casey's character. I feel like it's Barney anyway, but don't want to make a mistake here
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She absolutely should have used that ability NP1 and it was selfish play not to. with that being said, let me think
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I also I could also claim you only support it because it benefits democrats.
Every single benefit brought up by you in the op has been dismantled and this is why you refuse to debate, because it would harm your ego.
Most debaters just learn from losing a debate and adjust their arguments and views, but you are seeking to brow beat people into agreeing with you rather than engaging in something that would mutually help you and an opponent to learn and grow as people.
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@TheUnderdog
You can actually just watch the video I provided which already debunked all his points before he even made them
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@Swagnarok
But that's not even what is happening here. People are nicely asking Biden to drop out of the 2024 race. He doesn't have to. But he'd be doing his party and the country a favor if he did.
I am a bit torn on this, because they knew he was like this prior to that debate but conveniently waited until after it was out of the hand of democratic primary voters to make this move.
I will say that using kamala Harris mitigated this criticism a bit as when you vote for a president you should be taking into consideration that their VP may end up running the country. Either way though fucked up the press played cover and actually are literally multiple times being caught receiving scripted questions.
It's also fucked up thay we all know for a fact the law is not applied evenly and if Yrump had dementia in office the 25th amendment would have definitely been used
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I am a liberal. There is nothing more important than democracy. Not freedom, not justice, not even your life.
Democracy is so important that we need to do whatever the hell it takes to protect that, whether it be removing democratically elected politicians to replace then with a DEI hire or locking up threats to democracy so we can keep democracy safe from the voters.
The only thing that even comes close to democracy in terms of importance is capitalism and George Bush saved capitalism by launching an all out assault on it with his bail outs.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
ll look at the new story later but why he be raping 13 year olds in 2016?
Back in 2016 it was a different time, and likely legal
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@Discipulus_Didicit
the 13 year old girl accusation was from 2016
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@Double_R
In the comment section of the video it posts to the debate with the citations
citations from the video
1. https://thefga.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/National-Ranked-Choice-Voting-Message-Test-one-pager-9-22-22.pdf2. https://vote.minne apolismn.gov/ranked-choice-voting/history/3. https://www.cato-unbound.org/2016/12/13/jason-mcdaniel/ranked-choice-voting-likely-means-lower-turnout-more-errors/4. https://sfelections.org/results/20101102/data/d10.html5. https://freedomfoundationofminnesota.com/ranked-choice-voting/6. https://apnews.com/article/eric-adams-wins-nyc-democratic-mayoral-primary-9c564828a29831747f9c2e6f%2052daf55e7. https://www.fairvote.org/where_is_ranked%20_choice_voting_used
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