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@Cogent_Cognizer
Actually, I don't think anyone was being lazy this game. I think there were just some tactical errors and a lack of coordination early on.For town to win, we can't have people that just laze around.
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@Vader
Doesn't really matter if you make your role worthless and then get lynched a few DPs later because you didn't have enough towncred. Even townies need towncred.
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@Mharman
But your one dream did, effectively, go to waste, as it was clear that Pie was scum without the dream, and unlikely the other two were scum. Hence, you revealed yourself without any tangible gain, as I could see.
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DAY PHASE ARCHIVE
ON THE THEME
The theme for this game was Women (mafia) vs. Men (town). There was a further thematic element, in that men who I find attractive were given non-Vanilla roles, and men who I do not find attractive--but who others often did--were given Vanilla roles. It was for this reason that I found Warren's claim hard to believe, and it surprised me that no one called him out on it. I will also note, for the record, that I was being polite when I described O'Pry as cute. My taste in men runs towards the muscular-but-not-freakishly-so end of the spectrum, with some exceptions. When I do find men outside of that type attractive, they tend to have softer features--O'Pry's face is just way too angular. That might be a bit TMI but I mention it to explain why certain characters and justifications were included.
ON THE BALANCE
I felt that this game was extremely well-balanced. The Visitor roles were not fluff roles; their inclusion balanced for the dreamer. By upping the number of visiting roles, I increased the likelihood that the dreamer might not dream, without, I think, making it too unlikely that the dreamer would dream. The Ninja balanced for the Tracker. The Ninja was given a restrictive flavor in part because the dreamer was already a fairly weak investigative role (and Town had no doctor), and so I felt that the Tracker could not be balanced at parity with the Ninja, lest town's only power roles be overly counterbalanced. Mafia was given the Lookout to help them identify Town's active roles, but the Tracker might have been able to hide among all the visitors, and made it difficult for Mafia to pinpoint who had a power role and who did not. And, of course, Town had a BP.
ON THE GAME
I was enormously pleased with the amount of activity in this game, and want to thank everyone for participating as much as they did. It is that level of participation which makes the game fun and worthwhile. There were, I think, a few missteps on both sides. Supa should not, for instance, have hinted at being BP quite so early, as he effectively rendered his role useless. Mafia should have pushed for a Cogent lynch earlier, given that he stated his character has won a gold medal. Pita Taufatofua has never won an Olympic Medal of any level. The Speed-Warren gambit should have been more transparent, given how obvious it was that Warren was scum. Why would experienced scum so clumsily and poorly counterclaim another player in a non-MYLO or -LYLO situation if that other player were really town? Granted, I had the advantage of knowing what was going on, but it seemed tremendously transparent to me. Finally, if I were Mhar, I would not have claimed when I did--I would have waited to see if I could have gotten another dream before exposing myself to mafia. Overall, I think mafia took some unnecessary risks (like the gambit) and town lacked sufficient coordination early on. I will award Mafia and Game MVPs to Speed, for (a) not being lynched and (b) carrying mafia to the finish. While I don't think there was genuinely any town MVP, but I will award it as a tie between Wylted and Disc.
Thanks again to all who played. It was a fun game for me and hopefully for you too! Farewell to Celebrity Mafia, and good luck to you in your future games!
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Welcome to the Celebrity Mafia endgame!
Mafia wins! Congratulations!
MAFIA
Pie - You are CATE BLANCHETT. You have enormous malleability as an actress, demonstrated by your successful portrayal of roles as diverse as Galadriel, Elizabeth I, and Irina Spalko. Your versatility--and the skill by which you cross boundaries--makes you the even-night NINJA. On even-numbered nights, if you perform the NK, you may not be tracked or watched. You win with the mafia.
Speed 2 (Oro) - You are RACHEL MADDOW. Relentless truth-seeking is your hallmark. Your in-depth exploration of oft-undercovered (yet critically important) stories, has earned you plaudits from critics and lay audiences alike. Your decision to take seriously the press’s role as watchdog makes you the LOOKOUT. Each night you may select another player. You will learn who, if anyone, visited your target that night. You win with the mafia.
Warren - You are KIM KARDASHIAN. For you, I have only a collection of adjectives: “irresponsible,” “vacuous,” “conceited,” and, most devastatingly, “hackneyed.” You are the GOON. You have no role. You win with the mafia.
TOWN
Press - You are SEAN O'PRY. As a highly successful model, your presence and all-American facial features have earned you acclaim and placed you in high demand. That being said, I never found you attractive. Being frank, your looks strike me more as skeletal than sensual. Therefore, you are VANILLA. You have no role. You win with the town.
Speed 1 - You are SHAWN MENDES. Your music is not good, but who honestly cares? Your hair, your face, your body...You could visit me any night. Therefore, you are the compulsive VISITOR. Each night, you must choose another player to visit. Your visit has no effect on you or on your target. If you fail to submit a target, one will be randomly selected for you. You win with the town.
Wylted - You are JAMES DEAN. For a generation, your name became synonymous with rebellion and the malaise of social estrangement. You embodied a particular brand of dark, outsider sex appeal that excited fangirls around the world before the world fangirl even entered our lexicon. However, while I admit there is a gravity to you and your persona, you never did anything for me. Therefore, you are VANILLA. You have no role. You win with the town.
Supa - You are ANDERSON COOPER. You are a silver fox; time is typically the enemy of beauty, beauty being a sadly ephemeral condition. Yet, you have more than weathered the tests of time. Therefore, you are the 1-shot BULLETPROOF. The first time you are targeted for death at night, you will survive. You will not be notified if/when your shot is used. You win with the town.
Mhar - You are RUPERT BROOKE. Prepossessing in a boyish kind of way, your youthful and philosophical idealism permeates your poetry, which strikes the reader as somewhere between the aestheticism of Keats and the music of Hopkins. You expressed a yearning so many of us feel, yet so few of us can convey. Therefore, you are the DREAMER. At the end of each night, you will be provided the names of three players. At least one of those players will be scum, and at least one of those players will be town. You will not dream if disturbed in the night. You win with the town.
Cogent - You are PITA TAUFATOFUA. Your Olympic entrance was appreciated not just for your celebration of traditional Tongan culture, but for how fantastic you looked doing it. Having competed in multiple sports, you are experienced at setting and pursuing goals. Therefore, you are the TRACKER. Each night, you may select another player. You will learn who, if anyone, that player visited during the night. You win with the town.
Club - You are EDUARDO SANCHEZ-UBANELL. For a YouTube celebrity, you come across as surprisingly shy. Granted, when you have the backing of BuzzFeed and when you look like that, shyness is not much of a barrier to influencer stardom. Sweet and sexy, I wouldn't mind you paying me a few visits. Therefore, you are the compulsive VISITOR. Each night, you must choose another player to visit. Your visit has no effect on you or on your target. If you fail to submit a target, one will be randomly selected for you. You win with the town.
Grey - You are GEORGE CLOONEY. You inherited an immense talent from a family brimming with it, and became a success almost by virtue of your birth. It certainly did not hurt that you benefited from connections, dreamy looks, and money. It is indisputable, of course, that as your fame ballooned, so too did popular references to your good-looks. Yet, that some would find you so attractive always baffled me. I have always found you rather plain and nondescript. Therefore, you are VANILLA. You have no role. You win with the town.
Disc - You are THEO JAMES. As Four, you read as a modern Marlon Brando--strong, confident, masculine. Your seething sex appeal certainly reeled me in. I'd go so far as to say that you could visit me anytime. Therefore, you are the compulsive VISITOR. Each night, you must choose another player to visit. Your visit has no effect on you or on your target. If you fail to submit a target, one will be randomly selected for you. You win with the town.
NIGHT ACTIONS
NP1
Cogent - Trk. Wylted
Disc - Vst. Cogent
Speed - Vst. Supa
Club - Vst. Speed
Oro - Lkt. Wylted
Warren - NK Speed
NP2
Cogent - Trk. Mhar
Disc - Vst. Cogent
Club - Vst. Cogent
Speed - Lkt. Cogent
Warren - NK Wylted
NP3
Cogent - Trk. Speed
Disc - Vst. Cogent
Club - Vst. Cogent
Speed - Lkt. Cogent
Warren - NK Mhar
NP4
Cogent - Trk. Club
Disc - Vst. Grey
Club - Vst. Grey
Speed - Lkt. Cogent
Speed - NK Cogent
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Stop posting immediately.
The Endgame will be up shortly.
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LYNCHED LAST DP
Warren - You are KIM KARDASHIAN. For you, I have only a collection of adjectives: “irresponsible,” “vacuous,” “conceited,” and, most devastatingly, “hackneyed.” You are the GOON. You have no role. You win with the mafia.
DIED IN THE NIGHT
Cogent - You are PITA TAUFATOFUA. Your Olympic entrance was appreciated not just for your celebration of traditional Tongan culture, but for how fantastic you looked doing it. Having competed in multiple sports, you are experienced at setting and pursuing goals. Therefore, you are the TRACKER. Each night, you may select another player. You will learn who, if anyone, that player visited during the night. You win with the town.
GRAVEYARD
Press - Sean O'Pry, Vanilla - Town
Speed 1 - Shawn Mendes, Visitor - Town
Pie - Cate Blanchett, Ninja - Mafia
Wylted - James Dean, Vanilla - Town
Supa - Anderson Cooper, Bulletproof - Town
Mhar - Rupert Brooke, Dreamer - Town
Warren - Kim Kardashian, Goon - Mafia
Cogent - Pita Taufatofua, Tracker - Town
LIVING PLAYERS
Club
Grey
Disc
Speed 2 (Oro)
With 4 players, it takes 3 votes to lynch.
The DP ends at 1:15am, EST, on 9/5/19.
The DP ends at 1:15am, EST, on 9/5/19.
Good luck! And let the day phase begin!
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Lol. Fair enough. At least the explanation is out there.
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@Ramshutu
I would not be inclined to do that without RM's consent because the PMs also involve RM. Plus, hopefully the explanation as articulated will be sufficient to address this question without further dragging things out.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
This is the (hopefully) last thing I will say on this topic. The pre-MEEP policy that I developed was roughly as follows: "A ban constitutes a denial of service, including the ability to create any content on this platform. A banned user therefore is prohibited from creating site content, making their debates eligible for deletion." I gave RM and Ram opportunities to argue against and for, respectively, that interpretation of the COC before I finalized it. Rather than make any argument, RM replied to my PM with a stream of insults; so, in my view, he had his chance to substantively object, and chose not to.
The MEEP provided clarification, because it would not be immediately obvious to the casual user reading the COC that banned users could not create debates. The MEEP introduced wording explicitly addressing the issue, making it clearer for site users what the policy was.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It does kind of mean after the fact. If you've read the Constitution, you'll see a line prohibiting ex post facto laws, which means laws which retroactively criminalize conduct. Like, if Day 1 you insult me, and Day 2 I make insulting me illegal, you wouldn't normally be punished because your insult was not a crime when you said it. However, if I made the law ex post facto (or I applied it that way), your insult would be retroactively criminalized and you could be punished.
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Vote Count
Warren (4/4) - Speed, Disc, Grey, Cogent
VTNL (1/4) - Club
Speed (1/4) - Warren
Results
Warren was lynched (on page 4)! He was guilty.
Submit night actions! The NP will last 48 hours.
Stop posting.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The deletions were not, in my view, ex facto because the rules logically followed from rules predating the MEEP. The MEEP primarily served to make the rules more clear for users, not to codify new policy.
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LYNCHED LAST DP
Supa - You are ANDERSON COOPER. You are a silver fox; time is typically the enemy of beauty, beauty being a sadly ephemeral condition. Yet, you have more than weathered the tests of time. Therefore, you are the 1-shot BULLETPROOF. The first time you are targeted for death at night, you will survive. You will not be notified if/when your shot is used. You win with the town.
DIED IN THE NIGHT
Mhar - You are RUPERT BROOKE. Prepossessing in a boyish kind of way, your youthful and philosophical idealism permeates your poetry, which strikes the reader as somewhere between the aestheticism of Keats and the music of Hopkins. You expressed a yearning so many of us feel, yet so few of us can convey. Therefore, you are the DREAMER. At the end of each night, you will be provided the names of three players. At least one of those players will be scum, and at least one of those players will be town. You will not dream if disturbed in the night. You win with the town.
GRAVEYARD
Press - Sean O'Pry, Vanilla - Town
Speed 1 - Shawn Mendes, Visitor - Town
Pie - Cate Blanchett, Ninja - Mafia
Wylted - James Dean, Vanilla - Town
Supa - Anderson Cooper, Bulletproof - Town
Mhar - Rupert Brooke, Dreamer - Town
LIVING PLAYERS
Warren
Cogent
Club
Grey
Disc
Speed 2 (Oro)
With 6 players, it takes 4 votes to lynch.
The DP ends at 1:00pm, EST, on 9/3/19.
The DP ends at 1:00pm, EST, on 9/3/19.
Good luck! And let the day phase begin!
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@Mharman
It's something worth considering the next time a MEEP is imminent. However, it is abundantly clear that in the present, site policy requires the thread to be locked.
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@Mharman
I think we already did vote on that in a way: that thread was specifically cited as one of the threads to be locked. Voters knew that when they voted as they did. I am not ruling it out, but I am not seeing a lot of utility in MEEPing that either.
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Reasonably inferred by bsh1. If an idea isn't accepted by you it isn't permitted.
Reasonably inferred by most people I would wager. And, I permit many ideas on this site which I do not approve of (e.g. Ethnonationalism, Communism). I have been permissive of numerous ideas being discussed here precisely because I value free speech, dialogue, and debate.
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@TheRealNihilist
Can't demonstrate how we have intent yet still going around in a discussion as if we have agreed upon it. Purpose is a sign of stating there is intent in what a person is doing. I didn't accept that. I questioned that you still accepting it as if that isn't the problem with the spam thread conversation.
I already explained why most posts are purposive. Humans are purposive beings, ergo, sane human activity is purposive. But the point of my last post was largely that these issues you want to debate have already been settled by and large in mainstream society. So unless we’re having a debate about philosophy or neuroscience—which we’re not—I am not going to debate these issues which have already been settled in our discursive context.
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@TheRealNihilist
That is an absurd proposition. It would mean that any argument against any other argument was an ad hominem argument, unless you’re planning on engaging in special pleading. It also defies common sense—I can find your argument absurd without finding you absurd, so there is a clear disjunction between you and your argument.If it wasn't clear the argument I make is an extension of myself.
Ad hom arguments are arguments which target persons, not ideas. If I called you a “fucking prick,” for example, I would be engaging in making an ad hom argument. If I say instead, “your argument is absurd and here is why,” I am making it about the ideas, not the person, and so am not making an ad hominem argument.
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@Dr.Franklin
You're repeating your initial position without addressing anything I said rebutting that position. So, you're still not being at all responsive to anything I said. To repeat:
It definitely is [spam]. Posts there are dubiously purposive and the thread invites excessive and repetitive posting. I doubt you could convince even 30% of site users that it isn't spam.Beyond that, however, given that that very thread was specifically cited as an example of what would be prohibited by the MEEP, it can be accurately said that voters voted to have threads like and including Record Attempt at Most Posts locked. Ergo, locking the thread was authorized by the MEEP even if it doesn't fall under your understanding of spam.
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@Dr.Franklin
They were some good conversations on it
That's not responsive to anything I said. And, certainly, nothing precludes you from having good conversations elsewhere on the site.
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@TheRealNihilist
Didn't attack the substance of my argument. "That leads into an absurd kind of "can we really know anything" regression." is basically you attaching a negative attribute to what I said.
I don't believe you read your own definition closely enough. You defined ad homs as arguments which avoided the topic at hand "by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument." Since I have at no point attacked the person making the argument (namely, yourself), I have not committed an ad hom. As I said earlier (and as your own definition verifies) ad homs deal with attacking people, not content.
Everything is about the foundation
I am not unwilling to discuss the issue with you up to a point. But you've gotten here to the crux of why I have reached the point where I am unwilling to continue the debate. If every debate has to drill down to some sort of intellectual "foundation," then the actual question which sparked the debate will never be discussed, because the conversation becomes bogged down in a never-ending series of prior questions.
This has a lot to do with the stasis theory of argument. If we are constantly having to sort out questions at lower stasis levels, we shortchange the higher-level issues. I am not interested, therefore, in debating whether we can determine intent, because it strikes most people as obvious that we can. Having to debate these kinds of commonsense issues is therefore counterproductive and regressive; if we actually want to talk about spam, then let's talk about spam. Let's not talk about whether intent is determinable.
Generally, most posts have some purpose, because humans are purposive beings. Whether that purpose is communicative or not is what is really at issue, not whether there is purpose. Content has communicative purpose if the content itself (that is, the words themselves) are designed to communicate something. Someone who posts "f" once in this thread can be reasonably inferred to be doing so in order to communicate support to RM. That "f" then has a communicative purpose. Someone who posts "f" 70 times in this thread can be reasonably inferred to be doing so in order to boost their post count, disrupt the thread, etc. Clearly, 70 identical posts aren't serving a communicative purpose in and of themselves, even if they may be communicating something performatively. In such a case, it is not the content itself which is communicating, but the volume of the content which is. That content lacks communicative purpose as I explained it. Where communicative purpose is in doubt, moderation errs on the side that it is present.
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@Dr.Franklin
It is not Spam
It definitely is. Posts there are dubiously purposive and the thread invites excessive and repetitive posting. I doubt you could convince even 30% of site users that it isn't spam.
Beyond that, however, given that that very thread was specifically cited as an example of what would be prohibited by the MEEP, it can be accurately said that voters voted to have threads like and including Record Attempt at Most Posts locked. Ergo, locking the thread was authorized by the MEEP even if it doesn't fall under your understanding of spam.
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@Dr.Franklin
The Record Attempt at Most Posts thread was banned pursuant to a MEEP in which the site voted to prohibit spam threads.
Next.
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Perhaps you could actually identify some threads which were (a) locked, (b) not violations of the site's COC, and (c) not desired to be locked by the content creator? Providing examples would be far more useful and constructive than complaining about a problem I don't think many others agree exists.
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@TheRealNihilist
You cannot have ad homs against "what is said." Ad homs are personal attacks; they are against people, not content. Objecting to content is precisely the point of debate.
Ultimately, though, I am not interested in having a debate which moves us out of the realm of commonsense. I think it is commonsense that intent can be discerned, often by content clues, explicit declarations of intent, and so forth. I think if we are asking "how can we tell if content has purpose" we are usually having one thought too many.
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@TheRealNihilist
That leads into an absurd kind of "can we really know anything" regression. In the context of this thread, it is generally clear that those pressing F are communicating support for or offering a farewell to RM.
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@TheRealNihilist
What is communicative purpose?
Content has communicative purpose if it is intended to communicate something.
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@TheRealNihilist
What fits under nonsensical?
I cannot provide a comprehensive list, as I cannot imagine every situation that might arise where this is an issue. However, I would say that, generally, nonsensical content is content which lacks a communicative purpose or which is literally incomprehensible.
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@TheRealNihilist
Where it's from is immaterial in this context. Rather, I am concerned with how it is being used in this thread. In the context of this thread (how it is being used here), it is certainly not nonsensical.It is literally a meme from Call of Duty
The more important question how much are you willing to budge
I certainly move (and have moved) on issues where compelling arguments are presented contrary to my initial position. That being said, there must be some finality to moderation decisions as well, lest moderation's word not be taken seriously. Any moderator must strike a balance then between being open to "budging" and standing firm--pliable, but not too pliable. It's not always an easy balance to strike, and no one is perfect in striking it.
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@TheRealNihilist
The COC defines spam as "any content which is nonsensical or excessively repetitive." What counts as "nonsensical or excessively repetitive" is ultimately my job to decide.
In this case, to the extent that there is a clear purpose to the content, it is not nonsensical. Nor is it, in my view, excessively repetitive so long as each poster only posts "f" once. To the extent that everyone keeps their "press F" posts to a minimum, then the repetitiveness is not excessive, because each post conveys a unique message of support (i.e. a message of support specific to an individual person).
There is obviously room for disagreement, but I find this to be a borderline case, and so my ruling is that it is not lockable.
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Rules do currently apply to moderators. Indeed, moderators have more responsibility to behave properly and fewer protections against attack than other users.
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@TheRealNihilist
This is not a spam thread. It's borderline, but there is a clear purpose to it, and as long as users are only posting "f" once, they are not spamming per se. In borderline cases, the default is to allow the content.
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@David
Doesn't need to be locked. But I will move it to the people section.
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@TheRealNihilist
It isn't for me to judge the merit of content, only whether it violates the site's Code of Conduct. This thread is about moderation, so the main forum is an appropriate venue for it, and the thread does not violate the COC.
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Final Count
Supa (5/5) - Disc, Mhar, Cogent, Speed, Club
Results
Supa was lynched (on page 4)! He was innocent.
Submit night actions! The NP will last 48 hours.
Stop posting.
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LYNCHED LAST DP
Pie - You are CATE BLANCHETT. You have enormous malleability as an actress, demonstrated by your successful portrayal of roles as diverse as Galadriel, Elizabeth I, and Irina Spalko. Your versatility--and the skill by which you cross boundaries--makes you the even-night NINJA. On even-numbered nights, if you perform the NK, you may not be tracked or watched. You win with the mafia.
DIED IN THE NIGHT
Wylted - You are JAMES DEAN. For a generation, your name became synonymous with rebellion and the malaise of social estrangement. You embodied a particular brand of dark, outsider sex appeal that excited fangirls around the world before the world fangirl even entered our lexicon. However, while I admit there is a gravity to you and your persona, you never did anything for me. Therefore, you are VANILLA. You have no role. You win with the town.
GRAVEYARD
Press - Sean O'Pry, Vanilla - Town
Speed 1 - Shawn Mendes, Visitor - Town
Pie - Cate Blanchett, Ninja - Mafia
Wylted - James Dean, Vanilla - Town
LIVING PLAYERS
Warren
Cogent
Club
Grey
Disc
Mhar
Speed 2 (Oro)
Supa
With 8 players, it takes 5 votes to lynch.
The DP ends at 9:45pm, EST, on 8/31/19.
The DP ends at 9:45pm, EST, on 8/31/19.
Good luck! And let the day phase begin!
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@Greyparrot
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Final Count
Wylted (1/6) - Pie
Pie (6/6) - Wylted, Cogent, Disc, Club, Speed, Grey
Results
Pie was lynched (on page 7)! He was guilty.
Submit night actions! The NP will last 48 hours.
Stop posting.
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Vote Count
Disc (3/6) - Club, Speed, Grey
Wylted (1/6) - Pie
Pie (2/6) - Wylted, Cogent
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My IQ is somewhere in the 120s. But, I dislike IQ tests in general, and they read to me as not really getting at the essence of what makes someone brilliant.
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Vote Count
Disc (3/6) - Club, Speed, Grey
Wylted (1/6) - Pie
Pie (1/6) - Wylted
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