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@ILikePie5
You need to get active. Character claim please, and give reads.
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@Speedrace
Vote Pie so that we can get a claim out of him. Since he's in our scumpile, getting info out of him perhaps matters more than getting it out of Oro.
VTL Pie for character claim and reads.
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NP1, the only night when there was no NK. Instead there was a poisoning.This means that scum can use their NK and their poison at the same night.
Well, unless I am grossly mistaken, we have only had 2 NPs. In NP1, there was no NK and there was a poisoning. In NP2, there was an NK and there was no poisoning. We don't know, as I already explained, whether Disc's BP shot was used. Notice that Club claimed even-day PD; perhaps the even/odd cycle is important. Yet, you seem incredibly confident of your interpretation of events. It almost reads like you have inside information that you're trying to sell as a big revelation in order to get towncred. That would fit with you acting like you don't understand the active/passive distinction and with the push on Wylted, which I just am not getting when I really think about it.
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@Mharman
This was Mhar's original role claim:
Universal Backup. I inherit the role of the first townie PR to die.
This is his latest explication on his role.
I only inherit active roles.
These are not the same claims. Power roles (PR) can be active (e.g. a cop) or passive (e.g. a dreamer). It is possible, perhaps, that Mhar was confused about the mechanics of his role. But his initial claim about power roles seems pretty specific, too specific to permit this kind of ambiguity. In other words, if warren had really said something along the lines of the first iteration of Mhar's claim, then I don't see how the second iteration could be true.
Mhar, can you paraphrase your role PM again for us? Thanks.
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@Speedrace
Ok, so I asked Warren if, hypothetically, if he would feel the need to balance a fake poisoner with a poison doctor, or not to since the doctor wouldn't really do anything... he said, and I quote, "that's not an answer I'm willing to give." You can ask him yourself to confirm. Notice that he didn't even try to be vague, he straight up didn't answer. That's because saying he didn't feel the need to put the poison doctor would instantly out Club as Mafia!
This logic only holds if we conflate "fake poisoner" with "poisoner who can also fake poison". These aren't the same. The latter, which is what warren talked about in his post, could still actually poison someone, unless I am misreading that. Thus, a poison doctor would still make sense, because their role might still be put to actual use. Am I right on this, because the more I think about it, the more I think I am...? I'd be interested to get your take.
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@Mharman
Why does the fact that "a poisoner who can fake poison exists" entail that "Wylted is the poisoner who can fake poison." There's a logical leap here that's missing for me. What if Wylted was actually poisoned or there is some kind of red herring situation going on? Can you spell out for me how you get from your premise to your conclusion?warren confirmed we either have two poisoners, or a poisoner that can fake poison. I think it's the latter, because we've had the longstanding theory that poisoner was scum; if we had a town poisoner, he would've stepped forward and debunked that theory.Which means we have a poisoner who could fake poisoning... and that would be Wylted.
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@Speedrace
What if Wylted is scum...and Club fake poisoned him to make it otherwise? Then they both look like town after Club claims poison doctor!
This would mean that Club and Wylted are both scum. This would require Club to be a fake poisoner and for Wylted to be on the same scum team as Club. I don't think this is likely due to balance considerations. I've just gone through the DP and put together a claims list.
Disc - Shuckle, 1x BP*
Mhar - Eevee, Universal Back-up
Club - Chansey, Poison Doctor
Grey - Squirtle, Vanilla*
Wylted - Ponyta, Vanilla
Speed - Tropius, Vanilla
Water - Growlithe, Vanilla
Bsh1 - Soft claim
Oro - No claim
Supa - No claim
Pie - No claim
Phione - No claim
Now, factoring all this information in, I don't see how there couldn't be an actual poison doctor. Why? Because Warren described a "poisoner who can also fake poison," not a poisoner who can only fake poison. This suggests, to my reading, that any poisoner must be able to actually poison if they chose. Since we know that there must be a poisoner of some type in the game, we know that the poisoner could/can actually poison. The existence of a poisoner would fit nicely with the existence of a poison doctor. Plus, I doubt that a 1x BP would be the only protective role in this game, esp. if Mhar's idea of NK + poisoning is also true. So, balance considerations here suggest further that Club is not lying.
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@Alec
There are three great reasons. First, there are a finite number of jobs--some people will always have to be in minimum wage jobs. Second, if you have a job, you shouldn't be forced to live in poverty. Third, the poor have far fewer opportunities to improve their situation than those in other income brackets, and so need more protections to prevent their exploitation and minimize their suffering.
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@Alec
I am not going to comment on the reasons for his ban. I will refer you instead to the site ban log.
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@Speedrace
I was thinking the exact same thing, but why would the poisoner be Wylted?
This. Behaviorally--and this feels odd to say given it's Wylted I am talking about--he hasn't appeared scummy to me. This is something I will want to cogitate on.
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@Speedrace
What if Wylted is scum...and Club fake poisoned him to make it otherwise? Then they both look like town after Club claims poison doctor! Read Water's analysis, he asks if Wylted is ok, like he knows Wylted is doing something wrong
Explain how Water's analysis fits in here?
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@Mharman
I don't think you understand what an active role is. An active role is like a vig, because they choose when and on whom to use their role. A bulletproof is NOT active, even when their shot is unused, because they do not choose when and on whom to use their role. Bulletproof is a great example of a passive role.He told that I did not because I only inherit active roles.This means that Disc's bulletproof is no longer active, which means he used it.
So, while it's possible that mafia attempted to NK Disc, there is no proof of that yet. Having played mafia for awhile, you should know the difference between active and passive roles and how those terms fit into common mafia parlance.
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@ILikePie5
We should make a lynch decision somewhere between there being 18 and 24 hours left in the DP, because we don't want a fragmented lynch effort like DP2 (which risks unwanted lynches) or a no lynch like DP1. That doesn't mean we necessarily need to secure the lynch at that time, but we should decide on a game plan around that timeframe. If you think about it, last DP it was hard to track which wagon town was pushing at any given moment--was it Club? Mhar? Disc?--and that allowed a lynch that I, for one, wasn't on board with, and which hurt town. We cannot rush the DPs--we have to use all the time we can to probe and investigate--but we can't be disorganized either.
Right now, I am townreading Speed, Club, and Wylted. I would welcome their input on the lynch. I have the biggest doubts about Pie and Mhar. And then, of course, there are the less-than-actives like Phione, Oro, Water, and Supa. I think there are two potential options that we have as town: (1) lynch someone that is suspicious, or (2) lynch an inactive at random. I already stated the risks and benefits of the latter strategy, which will be important to weigh moving forward. I favor the former option atm.
All of this is, of course, preliminary. I still intend to pressure inactives for reads and character claims until the timeframe I identified arrives, and something might turn up as a result of the pressure. Also, Pie should claim, and I am willing to pressure him if he doesn't. I think we should also reflect on what has already been said this DP and see if we notice anything significant. Communication, as always, is key.
Anyway, I am definitely off for the night now. TTYL. I'll be back online tomorrow afternoon/evening.
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I want to repeat something I said earlier.
I am going to remove known townies and suspected townies from the count. I am including Club in the suspected townies group, because unless something really weird is going on balance/role-wise, I don't think he can be scum. I think Wylted not dying is evidence of a poison doctor. I also know that I am town. With that in mind, here is the revised list:Mharman: 3/7 (Phione)Disc: 4/7 (Mharman, Water)Club: 2/7 (Pie)I think that this is a better list of suspects to consider. If we buy the argument that scum would want to be mostly on the same page, in order to increase the likelihood that a lynch was secured, then Mhar and Water look the most suspicious. Then we have Phione and Pie, and, of them, I think Pie is the most suspicious.It is also possible, of course, that Supa and Oro are scum. Neither of them voted, which would have handicapped mafia's ability to drive the lynch. I could see Supa or Oro in a team with Pie, because Pie was clearly trying to drive the lynch a specific way, but didn't have back up really from anyone else. It's possible that a large portion of the scum team was AWOL, inhibiting Pie's ability to direct the lynch to mafia's preferred target. I'd be interested in other people's thoughts.
Did you VTL me? that's very very very suspicious gotta go with Mharman on this one.mharman: Town helped town and has done nothign suspicious
I could see Water as noob scum with Mhar. Water's flagrant buddying seems the kind of thing he'd do as inexperienced scum.
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@ILikePie5
You know I love tunneling ;). Last time I was being an idiot, this time Club is a moron.
I think there are different ways to tunnel. A townie tunnels because they genuinely believe a player is scum. You tunneled despite admitting that you didn't care if Club was town or not.
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I am logging off. Probably for the night. Maybe not. Will be online tomorrow afternoon/evening. Don't lynch anyone, and don't rush the DP.
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@Mharman
I think I might be onto something big too.
What?
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@Tejretics
I think you make a good argument. I still doesn't sit well with me--there's no perspectival limiter--but I take your point.
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@WaterPhoenix
I wasn't asking you to unvote. Please tell me what your reads are and why for all the players currently alive in the game (besides you), namely:
Bsh1
oromagi
mharman
Phione
Wylted
Pie
Club
Supa
Speedrace
A "read" is an explanation of whether you think someone is town or mafia, and why you think that. After I have your reads, I will unvote you.
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@Speedrace
But Club I know wasn't on for a fact because he told Warren he was leaving... So maybe that one scenario you gave where he fake poisoned then pretended poison doctor? Plus it would make sense because you wouldn't need a poison doctor to balance if the poisoner is fake
I still find that unlikely. It is possible mafia just didn't agree on night actions. Would warren randomize the action if mafia never submitted or agreed on it? That's up in the air.
Help me pressure Water, and then let's leave him at L3 (3 away from a lynch) until he gets more active. I'd like his reads with analysis and, at the very least, a character claim from him. Then maybe we can apply pressure to another player. Oro, Supa, or Phione.
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@Tejretics
Yeah, but I think that topic might encourage debaters to talk past each other. Suppose Pro attempts to prove that China's attempts to become a dominant global power are regrettable from the United States's perspective, while Con argues that they are not regrettable from a global perspective. Neither side ends up engaging with each other's specific advocacy.
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@Speedrace
Was he on at all during the NP?So fingers pointing at Phione now?
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@Mharman
Posts 102 and 104.
Please unvote now and help me pressure inactives. Also, please answer my question about whether you are still UB. Thanks.
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@warren42
Cool, you're online.
Hypothetically, of course, if there is only one poisoner in this game, would poison doctor be a day role?
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@Tejretics
China’s attempts to become a dominant global power are regrettable.
Regrettable to whom?
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@triangle.128k
Regarding the article, I think it's reasonable in its treatment of both sides of the issue. I think parents can bring kids to Pride, but they should be willing to redirect their kid's focus if need be. There is already so much sexualized content out there on the news and in advertisements (even in Walmart for pete's sake! -- have you seen the People of Walmart), that Pride isn't going to show them much that they couldn't find elsewhere, even without their looking for it. I mean, my parents took me to nude beaches in Germany and I turned out just fine. In fact, most continental Western Europeans let their kids in/on clothing-optional pools and beaches. There is some element of American/Puritan prudishness in the objections to bringing kids to Pride that makes the objection a bit silly to me. That being said, I probably wouldn't want my kid to watch a guy getting fetish whipped in the street, so I would just have to be ready to cover their eyes or walk away or something. But honestly, I don't really have much of an issue with taking kids to pride.
What would you like to debate?
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@David
Oddly, I don't think Obama had any huge successes. He may a lot of incremental progress, but I can't really think of one really big thing that he did himself that was like "wow." His biggest failure was probably choosing not to declare a no-fly zone over Syria before Russia intervened.
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Overview
This is a log of ongoing bans, both permanent and temporary, which were effectuated on or after August 5, 2019. Not included in this log are bans impacting accounts which were created exclusively for commercial advertising or spam-related purposes. The information given for each kind of log entry is stated below:
- Entries of permanent bans will state the date the ban was effectuated and provide a brief (not more than 500 characters) summary of why the user was permanently banned
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- Entries of bans by request (i.e. bans a user requested be applied to their own account) will state the date the ban was effectuated.
- Entries of closed multi-accounts (i.e. old accounts of otherwise active users) will state the date the ban was effectuated.
The moderator who made the ban ruling will also be included in all entries. Moderation will not offer public comment on the reasons for temporary bans unless and until either (a) the banned user returns and raises the issue publicly or (b) public interest outweighs the banned user's privacy concerns.
Permanent Bans
- Type1 - 8/9/19 by joint moderator decision
- Banned for: a continuing pattern of multi-accounting, making personal attacks against other users, spamming, and making threats against other users, all despite repeated warnings and moderation interventions. Hate speech, excessive trolling, deliberate call-outs, and an overt lack of contrition were aggravating factors. Multi-accounting to avoid a temporary ban was the precipitating factor.
- Alts: MaoZedongs_Son, Fresh_Broccoli, Farah_Bristy, NationalSocialist00, Goatis, Sparrow, Person777
- Polytheist-Witch - 8/12/19 by joint moderator decision
- Banned for: a continuing pattern of making personal attacks against other users, refusing to comply with licit moderation instructions, and harassment of other users, all despite repeated warnings and moderator interventions. An overt lack of contrition was an aggravating factor. Violation of a moderation-imposed probationary period with a 3-strikes policy was the precipitating factor.
- Alts: None
- Nd24007 - 8/30/19 by joint moderator decision
- Banned for: a continuing pattern of making personal attacks against other users, multi-accounting, and doxxing (including threats of doxing). A lack of sincere contrition and the sheer volume of multi-accounts (56 known accounts) were aggravating factors. Preliminary plans to doxx a DART user, which were brought to moderation's attention, were the precipitating factor.
- Alts: Superfly, Tax900, Sorrymilliontimes, High, 6000yyyt, whatthef, Toystory77, Shock555, Savethree, Tou88, Tjfour00, Fireball, Lion1950, Tyjlille, Bgyihf, Gggyyyy, Tellg, Sos33, Fog1000, Ggg666, Wrongagain, Wrongagain5005, Whybitch, Howdygut, Taguit, Bbby, Gyourbite, Heyu, Gotu, Tobad, Knowledgekim, 2499s, Thering, Exotic666, Mr.Wonderful, Toughasnailsg, Youarewrong, Meandyou, Joyous, Yeahuknow, Topfuck, Hmmuuu, Itcoming, Yeppers, MRTi, Imhere, Superhero, mynameiswhat, Fkyou1, Hyuytrdc, What99, Meone, Lllggg, Slug, Thefff
Temporary Bans
- Harikrish - 10/18/19 by Bsh1
- Length of Ban: 60 days
Bans by Request
- Cowscreen - 8/30/19 by Bsh1
- YitzGoldberg - 9/3/19 by Virt
- Club - 9/11/2019 by Bsh1
- Pinkfreud08 - 9/17/19 by Bsh1
- Bsh1 - 10/29/19 by Virt
Closed Multi-Accounts
- Gatorade - 9/21/19 by Bsh1
- Club - 9/21/19 by Bsh1
- BobsonDobson - 9/21/19 by Bsh1
- Graccus - 10/11/19 by Bsh1
- dontstopmenow - 10/11/19 by Bsh1
- billsands - 10/11/19 by Bsh1
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- shockthemonkey - 10/14/19 by Virt
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- Sinful - 10/21/19 by Bsh1
- The-Voice-of-Truth - 10/26/19 by Bsh1
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Alright, I'll be back online in a bit. If you have doubts, ask warren and have the patience to get his response.
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@WaterPhoenix
You have barely been active, and I am voting you in order to motivate you to be active. Why is wanting you to be engaged in the game suspicious? You are using too much OMGUS reasoning here, where anyone who has voted for you is automatically suspicious. How accurate have you been while doing that, statistically?
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@Mharman
Look, as a townie, I wouldn't lie about that information because I am not Wylted and don't pull bullshit gambits and wouldn't want to put myself at risk of a mislynch. As mafia, I wouldn't lie about that information either, because I wouldn't want to open myself up to exactly the argument Mhar is making. Plus, what I am saying is easily confirmable if you just take the time to actually ask warren "if there is only one poisoner in this game, would poison doctor be a day role." Literally, my post gives no information about my affiliation whatsoever.
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@Mharman
In the meantime, how about you not try to rush the DP to a lynch and help me pressure the inactives who are flying under the radar. You'll have the whole DP left to try to lynch me later.
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@Mharman
Warren would never answer those questions.
Then ask Warren yourself, lol. Do you honestly think, were I mafia, that I would post any of that without it actually having happened?
I literally said in my post:
If you ask Warren "if there is only one poisoner in this game, would poison doctor be a day role," he should confirm this information in your PM as well.
Do it. Ask warren that question. Wait until he gets online and see what he says. I am 100% confident he will confirm what I said in my post.
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@Speedrace
Yeah...it is hurting my brain. Have fun with school stuff, lol. Ouch...
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@Speedrace
Turned out not to be as big a deal as I thought, because Warren's responses were confusing and I got the wrong impression from them. It took me awhile to make sense of it.
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@Mharman
Your question was functionally answered by mine, since I wouldn't have asked it if I hadn't acknowledged what you said. Please now answer mine.
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