Total posts: 4,959
Hey witchy why would atheists hate theists, I personally just pity them/you for being trapped in your delusions it's very sad.
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@Mopac
Jesus Christ.
And even today you see people killing The Truth in order to justify themselves. And so in their hearts The Truth is killed by them, and buried in a tomb. But just as Jesus Christ rose from the dead, The Truth rises again. The Truth is etrrnal
We don't see The Ultimate Reality directly, but through The Most Perfect Image of The Truth.
You must have missed this.
Describe the most perfect image of the truth.
You know! the one you see.
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@keithprosser
Once again Keith I only regurgitate what christianity teaches and explain to them just how ridiculous and contradictory their teachings are. Their god didn't perform any of the atrocities they claim he did because their god is a figment of the imagination of the IPSS and the Hebrews are a heretical break away from their Canaanite ancestors.
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@Mopac
We don't see The Ultimate Reality directly, but through The Most Perfect Image of The Truth.
Describe the most perfect image of the truth.
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@Tradesecret
the Jewish religion was against human sacrifice - I would suggest that Jesus was a unique situation
Of human sacrifice.
What you have failed to show that the God of Israel ever promoted or sanctioned human sacrificebecause no where is it ever demanded by God in the first placeGod whom required it in the first place.
Read your book your god commanded it and you admit he required it. Please get your story straight.
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@keithprosser
It depends on the plane he gets on, apparently the big silver one will take him to ET's god worlds.
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@rosends
It may be that yhwh was thought to be the god of all,
Quote mining is such a dishonest tactic.
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@Alec
As always I know that you have no right to any woman's body uninvited, so you have no knowledge of a fetus. Keep your nose out of women's bodies you misogynist.
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@Vader
Right on top of this aren't you genius.when those Black Muslim chanted
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@Greyparrot
Any expansion on this nonsense is too complex for a Slump supporter.
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@Vader
It's quite amusing how the meaningless brain farts are so readily and enthusiastically embraced by the intellect needed to be a wingnut.
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@Tradesecret
Provide evidence.I don't need too. kidnapping, putting children through fire, sacrificing and eating children were all common.
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@Tradesecret
And there is the human sacrifice you denied earlier. No kudos for lying. And what we see around us is the result of his rule? Oh dear.
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@rosends
Then why is it continually referred to as god of Israel in your holy book?
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@Tradesecret
Was he human?Jesus died once for all - and has never been sacrificed again
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@Tradesecret
Why would you not believe a lawyer? Christians are not in principle superstitious - in fact we often go to great lengths to ensure people give up their superstitions.
Because they are liars. Belief in the supernatural is superstition
We don't believe in magic or manipulation. Magic and deceit with smoke and daggers are the work and practise of the non-godly.
Woohoo, no magic in the bible, much.
I never said one man attending our church makes its the real church. I said that one of Mopac's priests attended our church and participated within our service - hence declaring that he considered our church to be in communion with his and therefore part of the universal church of God - which is the true church.
Wanna bet
But for your priest to come to my church - is an acknowledgement that our church is a true church.
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@Mopac
IT'S YOUR SPURIOUS CLAIM HOW ABOUT YOU BACK IT UP.
What does it matter what the Hindus are, if your god is the god of all as you claim then he is the god of hindus, devil worshipers, pagans, muslims, do you want me to go on?
You just have to supply proof that the god who claimed to be the god of Israel is the god of all as you claim, he wasn't the god of the Amalekites just for starters.
It's the god of Israel who calls himself the god of Israel so now we have another god lying or is it the same god or is it you lying.
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@Tradesecret
You're a sucker for a kicking, aren't ya.
The first words in the bible are "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." -
Who wrote that and when, whoever they were they weren't witnesses so they had no way of knowing.
Genesis then goes onto say that Moses wrote it. Obviously he did not write the entire book - and many people try and say Moses never existed - yet, the Jews believe it. Moses was before the Babylonians exile.
So the author of genesis lied, Moses didn't write it but if he did what language did he write it in? Moses never existed, he is yet another fictional character. Do you know of the Nazi propaganda well the Jews in Babylon were way ahead of them.
David refers to Genesis. David could not refer to a book that was written after he lived if it was written in the time of the Exile. Samuel and many others also refer to the book of Genesis. These authors lived after Genesis was written but historians place them before the exile of Babylon.
Here is some truth just for you. If the authors in Babylon were writing a glorious history of a powerful empire that was really just a small insignificant little tribe of goatherds do you think they may include some smal examples of continuity? Mostly they failed in that regard but in your David scenario they got it right.
It may be the case that Deuteronomy and Chronicles was written during the Babylon exile. Jesus too refers to Genesis as at the beginning. Paul clearly does as well.
The NT authors got 99% of their story straight out of the OT, anyone who reads it honestly can only come to that conclusion.
the internal evidence is clear I think to refute the notion that Genesis was written during the Babylonian captivity.
It really doesn't matter when it was written, it's a pure fabrication. Who was there to record god saying let there be light?
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@Mopac
The God of Israel is The God of All.
That's your claim prove it.
Get a Jew and a Hindu to support you.
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@Tradesecret
It does not disappear just because you don't understand Genesis. My relationship with God is built on Christ, not on the story of Genesis.
I understand genesis, it's a fictional story written by ignorant, primitive, superstitious savages (IPSS) The story of christ is reliant on the genesis story being true and you have declared that not to be the case.
I am not dismissing Genesis by the way, simply not relegating it to the same height as you.
I place no credence in the story whatsoever.
I do believe in a historical Adam and Eve. I also believe that Adam fell from grace. Yet this does not mean that I need to take the view that the earth is 6000 years old. Nor does it mean that I cannot take the view that God made the world. I don't have to dismiss evolution - so far as God is the directing force of it.
Adam and Eve and the rest of the story is pure fiction, who are you to accept some parts as true and other parts as false, by what metric to you make this distinction? By placing a god in the story of evolution you have already rejected the ToE, you are just fooling yourself when you say you don't dismiss evolution the evolution that you don't dismiss doesn't exist.
Some Christians may well reject Christ if you can prove evolution. Or that the world is more than 6000 years of age. For me the age of the earth is not that important - but it is important that God made it.
Evolution is proven and that does convince some that the bible god stories are fantasies, but the only reason to believe those stories is the abject fear of death you have been inculcated with. So you do believe that the world is 6000yrs old you were just evading that admission. The age of the earth proves your genesis myth to be a lie and all of your beliefs stem from that and that means that YOU ARE GOING TO DIE.
For you - it seems that you think if you find a chink then you can prove God wrong and Christians foolish. Unfortunately for you, dismissing the story of Genesis is not going to be that chink. You seem to fail to realise that within the church which is very broad that these discussions have been going on for a very long time and it is not a reason for anyone to leave the faith or stop believing in God.
I have never attempted to prove your god wrong, your god doesn't exist, it is simply the imagination of the IPSS and can be dismissed without hesitation. There is nothing in genesis that is even worthy of consideration, real, actual science tells us the truth. Genesis is the fantasy of the IPSS. I don't care whether you stop believing in your god or any of the millions of other gods, I'm just pointing out how meaningless it will be when the evolved you dies just like every evolved life form to ever walk this planet.
I have yet to see one argument on this entire site that has not already done the rounds within Christian circles. People are a lot more resilient than you give them credit for. you after all don't give up on your daft views despite repeatedly being shown how daft they are. Just take the example of morality - you cant give a half decent opinion about what you think it is and whether it exists absolutely or is a modern relative and subjective concept. Rather you avoid it - run away and attack hoping that no one will notice your omission. But guess what? Everyone sees your avoidance and laughs.
The christians all 40,000varieties of them have never made any credible arguments even for the existence of these gods they worship, get off your soap box until you can prove these mythical gods exist. I have stated from the outset, not necessarily in this thread perhaps, regularly on these boards that morality is completely subjective and you prove it by basing YOUR morality on the writings of the IPSS, you subjectively choose their misbegotten standards as your own.
Everyone sees your lies and is in hysterics.
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@Mopac
The god in the OT is very often referred to as the god of Israel, stop lying.
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@Tradesecret
Provide evidence that genesis was written before the Babylonian exile and why do you reject the bible as evidence since everything I argue comes from your bible?
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@Tradesecret
Fancy believing a lawyer.
A godist decrying superstition is funnier than SNL.
One person attending your church makes your church the true church. Oh how desperate.
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@Mopac
Not in the OT, it was only the god of the Jews in the OT.The focus here is God more than anything, and this is the God of all, not simply the Jews.
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@Tradesecret
Jesus is redundant without genesis the bedrock of your beliefs. Without the fiction of genesis, Jesus had no-one to save and nothing to save them from.No - you really do not understand my views at all. My bedrock is not Genesis - it is Jesus.
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@Tradesecret
Obviously from not primary sources. The bible which is the only source claiming the existence of your god is not a primary source. woohoo.
The Bible is a primary source for me.
A change of story again, you claimed that I didn't get the story from the original source and now you are claiming that I did get the story from the original source. Lying is just so natural for you.
The humans should have disobeyed your god because his command was immoral? I agree. What about the Angels, should they have disobeyed for the same reason?
that is not what I said, don't twist my words. I said that humans did not have to obey him - if they thought God was asking them to do something immoral. Of course they would have to deal with the consequences of disobedience.
So you admit that these humans were acting under the command of your god and didn't do of their own free will but did under threat from your god the most powerful thing in existence. That's your argument for godly innocence shot down in flames.
God's command was not immoral because God is neither modernist nor post modern. Morality is not something that just exists out there. No angel nor anyone else should ever disobey God. But that does not mean that they cannot do so. Free choice is something that God gave humanity. Of course freedom also has consequences.
Well I'm glad that you have finally admitted that in your morality (god's morality) infanticide and genocide are not immoral. You and your god set a very low bar for your morality. The free choice only includes disobeying your god if you are prepared to accept eternal damnation and torture, that isn't free will it is divine blackmail.
I am not saying you have - but can you legitimately put 21st century morals on a society before AD? I would say that was pretty dumb.
Can you legitimately transfer bronze age morality into the 21st century? I've already told you that I don't operate under 21st century morals, whatever they are.
You simply make your own morals up as you go along. Hence why everything you say makes no sense. I do not think we should transfer bronze age morality onto the 21st Century. I do think however that the substance of God's morality is eternal and timeless.
Hence his command to stone non virgin brides to death is still applicable today, it's that very, very low bar your god has set that makes his morality infinitely inferior to mine.
God did not command anyone to stone non-virgin wives to deathSo the word of your god lies again?
come on wise guy - show me in the Bible where God says - on an unqualified basis - "to stone non-virgin wives" simply because they are non-virgin wives. Everywhere judgement is commanded by God it is in response to sinfulness. The very fact that God does not allow sinfulness to go unpunished is the essence of morality. The fact that you don't understand this is pathetic.
Come on wise guy, is the bible the word of god, did the Jewish laws constitute part of the covenant your god had with the Jews? The bible commands that non virgin brides be stoned to death and the bible is the word of god therefore god commands that non virgin brides be stoned to death.
And even if he did, so what?Here is the morality of this christian, evil beyond compare.
the point is - you keep asserting things - but you never ever provide any evidence to support your absurd statements. If you are just going to assert things - I will only just deny them. Prove me wrong.
I assert nothing. I do however use your holy bible for all of my arguments and that's why you can't refute any of them without refuting your bible and your beliefs.
I have not stayed away from any topicThe human sacrifice in question is the Jesus character who saved you from your god.
Jesus - human sacrifice - dying on a cross. Is that what you are getting at? Perhaps you could be so bold as to explain what human sacrifice is? You might also while you are at it - show anywhere in time or space or story or legend or myth where the one who is allegedly is being appeased is the very one who is doing the dying as a sacrifice. That might be very interesting. God demands satisfaction of justice because humanity has sinned against God. Yet humanity does not have the capacity to actually satisfy God - so God himself organises that he GOD truly represents humanity and dies as the satisfaction. That really is a strange kind of human sacrifice. It is at odds with any kind of human sacrifice in history or legend. If this really what it is.
There is no doubt that Jesus died.There is also no doubt that he died as a representation of humanity. But what was his death about? It was as a covenantal head representing his people so that they could be reconciled back to God. It was not a sacrifice in the ordinary sense because he rose from the dead. But was it human sacrifice or something more than that? You know I don't know - but I do find it important to realise that God never demanded human sacrifice prior to this time unless you are talking about capital punishment.
Will you just look at your confusion here.
It wasn't a human sacrifice because god sacrificed himself to himself.
In your myth as elucidated in your first paragraph you tell the story you ask me to provide.
Jesus the man was sacrificed.
Jesus the god was sacrificed
God the god was sacrificed
But Jesus wasn't sacrificed because he w3asn't really dead, he was just trickin'
When god sacrificed himself to himself he was representing humanity cos humanity couldn't
When one of the Jesus' was sacrificed he was representing humanity
God didn't command human sacrifice except when he demanded human sacrifice because he wanted to change his mind.
But he had to put up with a godly sacrifice, himself, and have a human sacrifice, Jesus at the same time. woohoo.
I think I got all that right.
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@Vader
So you don't know any so your claims regarding nihilists are just lies. You poor godists are always reduced to lying.
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@Mopac
Should we compile a list of words that you use but don't understand? Here's a start.
Nihilist.
Iconoclasm
Superstitious
Everyone is encouraged to add to this in the hope that it may help Mop.
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@Greyparrot
WOW a promise bahahahahahaha.
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@Tradesecret
And yet the genesis story is the bedrock of your beliefs and yet you accept that it is just a story, it isn't true. The bedrock of your beliefs is a lie.
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@Tradesecret
what arguments from the bible?
Your god sees them in hell before he creates them
God sees you in hell before he creates you can your much vaunted free will change that and prove your god wrong? I
Allegedly Jesus came to turn the other cheek and to reject the eye for an eye and tooth for tooth
We are discussing your god's evil nature as demonstrated by his creation of billions of souls just so he can torture them for eternity
This is what your bible teaches, the fact that you don't understand this is demonstrated by this lie.
Jesus never came to reject an eye for an eye
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@Tradesecret
Superman came from Krypton.Genesis tells us
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@Tradesecret
Only to the indoctrinated and frightened fools. Still waiting on spirits. hahahahahahahthe other things are death -
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@Tradesecret
Obviously from not primary sources,
The bible which is the only source claiming the existence of your god is not a primary source. woohoo.
I don't know wise guy? how about you tell us? As I said, if God does not exist, you are merely repeating human excuses and if God does exist, the human did not have to obey. Morality is what?
The humans should have disobeyed your god because his command was immoral? I agree. What about the Angels, should they have disobeyed for the same reason?
I am not saying you have - but can you legitimately put 21st century morals on a society before AD? I would say that was pretty dumb.
Can you legitimately transfer bronze age morality into the 21st century? I've already told you that I don't operate under 21st century morals, whatever they are.
God did not command anyone to stone non-virgin wives to death
So the word of your god lies again?
And even if he did, so what?
Here is the morality of this christian, evil beyond compare.
I have not stayed away from any topic
The human sacrifice in question is the Jesus character who saved you from your god.
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@Tradesecret
From whence comes this "understanding"?It is my understanding that the people of Canaan were full of quite evil and repugnant people -
It is my opinion -
Have you rewritten the bible yet to include the extra biblical beliefs you profess?
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@Mopac
God is omnipresent ergo everywhere is heaven including the last hang out of IS. You need to think if you are ever going to achieve the higher state of atheism. Regurgitating propaganda is fine and dandy for religion but not in the real worldWhere heaven is and what heaven is are the same. The presence of God
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@Tradesecret
I never said there was five types of death but in order to make you feel better:
physical death
You mean death, putting physical in there is redundant.
Spiritual death
Prove that spirits exist and that they can die.
covenantal death
The expiration of an agreement is not death in any sense of the word death. Ooh my phone contract died, yeah of course it did stupid.
the death of a reputation.
Getting desperate now. You always have a reputation, it doesn't die.
the death of a civilisation
The cessation of a civilization is not death in any sense of the word death.
the death of a species - extinction
Yes extinction is the word just as the death of a tree is a valid term because it uses the word death accurately.
The death of a theory.
You've gone too far, you're under the barrel.
Death is the cessation of life. If you are living you will die regardless of whatever fantasies you tell yourself.
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@Tradesecret
Ok that puts a different slant on it. How do you come to the conclusion that God has decided billions of people for that specific purpose?
The argument I've been making since the beginning is a different slant, oh dear, it must be your inability with the English language or is it that you read what you want to see because you've been taught how to respond to those arguments even if they are not there. Once again I'll give you a new slant that I have been writing since the beginning. Your god sees them in hell before he creates them there is no other purpose for their creation.
I reject your reasoning. God created man with free will. the bible clearly puts there. All humans can call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. Romans 10. God shows no favouritism. The fact that God sees them in Hell before hand - is neither here nor there. Every person who ends up in Hell deserves to be there - and to be tortured forever. You have not refuted this yet. I say even the people in heaven deserve to be in Hell and tortured for ever. God takes no pleasure in the punishment or the judgment of any person.
You can reject it till the cows come home but you can't refute it, all of your attempted distractions come to naught.God sees you in hell before he creates you can your much vaunted free will change that and prove your god wrong? It's neither here nor there that your god creates billions of people for the sole purpose of torturing them for eternity. That is their purpose just as those who finish in heaven is their purpose because they don't deserve to be there, do they.
That statement does not even make sense. Jesus came to this earth as an act of mercy.
Allegedly Jesus came to turn the other cheek and to reject the eye for an eye and tooth for tooth. Which as usual makes this next quote a lie.
He holds to the justice - of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth
Of course it is the question. You don't like the question. It is not a given which is why we are having this discussion and why I asked you to back your claim - which you have just admitted you cant. Calling it a given is a copout which we both know. You need to demonstrate that it was God's sole intention - and I don't think it is possible. I have shown even on a very small scale that there are other scenarios. And given that God says what he does is good - I am prepared to start there and go forward. You on the other hand - need to slink around and try and find some reason to support your view. presently, your statements have no support and demonstrate a profound lack of depth.
Once again you are confused regarding the topic under discussion. We are discussing your god's evil nature as demonstrated by his creation of billions of souls just so he can torture them for eternity. Now I've supported my arguments with the bible and your beliefs, see what you can do.
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@keithprosser
I'm arguing his god, he thinks it exists.
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@Tradesecret
OK then describe five types of death. LOLDeath is part of our world. But not all death is the same. That is my point.
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@Alec
It is better for a woman to endure some emotions temporarily from giving birth
And how the fuck would you know that?
Death is one of the worst things, if not the worst thing you can do to someone.
And how the fuck would you know that?
I would consider it at 5 weeks, when the cells specialize.
And how the fuck would you know that?
Science considers it to be about 23 weeks and they know immeasurably more than you as you prove with every line you type.
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@Tradesecret
I don't teach my children the lies you have made up about God.
Please elucidate these lies. Defend your god against his evil as proved by your god and your beliefs. You haven't yet refuted anything I've said, that's because Everything I've said is supported by you and your god.
will be unable to resist his grace because grace is a gift that comes from God and is given without even the condition of receiving it.
Can you even imagine how asinine this is?
Grace is unmerited gift.
It's a gift even when you don't receive it. How does that work?
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@Tradesecret
Total Depravity
For such low life despicable bastards you sure have an outlandishly high opinion of yourselves in the rest of it.
Hubris being the highest state you reach it would seem.
Do you teach your children that your god deliberately creates billions of people for the sole purpose of torturing them for eternity?
will be unable to resist his grace because grace is a gift that comes from God and is given without even the condition of receiving it.
Can you even imagine how asinine this is?
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@Tradesecret
I love it when you guys try so desperately and ineffectually to justify your totally conflicted beliefs.
Whatever God does is good. He is always holy and just. I don't consider that he committed infanticide, genocide, or human sacrifice. In every case you can cite, it is always the human who does any of these things.
Allegedly at your god's command. Ever heard of the Amalekites?
If you are correct and God does not exist, then it is simply humans attempting to blame God for commanding them to do so. If I am correct and God exists, then each of these humans still has free will not to do any of these things if it were considered to be immoral.
Which is more immoral, disobeying a command from god or infanticide?
On the other hand, given that morality seems in human terms to be determined by the culture at any particular time,it might well be that people in those times did not have any moral concerns with these matters.
Even though your god had set moral standards for them for decades. Which is more immoral disobeying your god's command or genocide?
If that is the case, then you are being culturally insensitive and take the arrogant view that the 21st century is somehow more moral than these ones. This of course is a nonsense, isn't?
Perhaps not the 21st century's morals but mine certainly are, I've never committed genocide.
It is absurd to place 21st century morals on any culture prior to it, unless you believe that morals are self existent apart from one's own culture. Hence you take either the command divine view - which you don't or you believe that absolutes exist apart from time and culture. And if that is the case, I would love to see your theory to support such a thing.
So you still practice stoning non virgin wives to death as commanded by your god? Amazing how your contradictory beliefs always come back to destroy your contradictory beliefs.
As for my views and science - if you took the time to read my post you would have observed that there are three views - divine command, modernist, and post modern. I linked science and absolutes with the modern view - not the divine command system. Idiot.
And what makes you think those claims mean anything to anyone but you.
You'll be running away and claiming victory shortly. You stayed resolutely away from the human sacrifice, any particular reason.LOL
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@Tradesecret
Why is it evil? It is completely just. Why would torturing someone in Hell for eternity be evil? God is not bound to the Geneva Convention you realise.
hahahahahaha very funny. It's not the torturing for eternity that I'm claiming is evil (even though it is) it's your god's decision to create billions of people for that specific person, that is what makes him evil. He knows all. hahahahaha
People who have rejected God choose to do so of their own free will. God is eternal - hence his mercy is eternal but so are his punishments. The fact that you - a mere mortal think that punishment of any kind ought to be short as possible - is not the measure of evil.
Your god creates people with no chance to do anything but reject him, he sees them in hell before he creates them and puts them there for his sadistic pleasure. The rest of your gibberish I'll assume is a result of your failure to comprehend the English language and your gross dishonesty in attributing to me what you think I think. You don't have a clue.
God is just and his judgments are fair and equitable. He holds to the justice - of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. In other words he holds to proportionality.
And yet he went out of his way allegedly to disavow that claim by allegedly coming all the way UP to earth. Because your god creates billions of souls for the express purpose of torturing them for eternity your claims concerning his "justice" are bald faced lies.
The question then is whether or not - being tortured for ever is proportionate to sinning against God? If you can demonstrate that it is not proportionate - that your sin is not worthy of eternal punishment, then you may well have a point. But unless you can demonstrate it, then you have no right to call it evil. Your insinuation that God is evil is nothing less than spite.
The question is nothing like that, torturing someone for eternity is evil is a given. Creating someone for the sole purpose of torturing them for eternity is the very essence of evil.
I don't insinuate anything, I state categorically that the god you believe in is the absolute essence of evil and I use your beliefs and your holy book as evidence in support of my declaration and you can't refute a single word because they are your beliefs.
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@Tradesecret
Does your god know all that he needs to know?
Or
Does he know all things that can be known.
The two statements are contradictory, you godists get all tied up trying to explain your contradictory beliefs.
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@Tradesecret
Describe death.
Your god via the bible claims that death entered the world through one man, ergo death did not exist before that man. You and your god have nothing but lies.
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