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@Buddamoose
Also, it took a while to verify, since the FECA was renumbered between Obama's campaign and Trump's, but the exact violations levied against each were different. Obama's campaign were cited as violating 30104(a)(b) and 30116(f) of the act while Cohen, in charge eight, pled guilty to 30116(a)(1)(A), 30116(a)(7), and 30108(d)(1)(A).
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@Buddamoose
Firstly, I want to just note that you came out of the gate mentioning Trump and Obama. So you came into the conversation with the presumption of some link in both of those regards.
its generally treated as an offense that merits only a fine.
That would involve some sort of analysis of how these violations have been treated over time. I don't have that information. If you do, I'd be interested in reading about it. As it is, the Obama campaign entered into a conciliation agreement with the FEC resulting in a "civil penalty" $375,000. In fact, the FEC is only authorized to seek civil remedies. Any criminal violation of the act is handled, naturally, by the Justice Department.
The primary difference (based on my reading) is "knowing and willful" violations of the act.
That you push lack of disclosure as a civil offense and not a criminal one that falls under jurisdiction of the FEC is farcical 🤔. It is a criminal offense, its just rarely punished with any more than a fine, and those fines are rarely collected in full.
Budda, you just admitted that the Obama Campaign was "never charged [with a crime]." If they were never charged with a crime, then they can't have committed a "criminal offense." A violation of the same law/act can be criminal or civil depending on the circumstances and provisions of the act.
For the Obama Campaign, they entered into a concilliatory agreement with the FEC who used its authority under the act to issue a civil penalty.
Cohen, however, was charged with, and pled guilty to, with criminally violating the act, which can merit a fine and/or prison time. It's a felony. It's on his record.
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@Buddamoose
You keep comparing this to Obama's campaign, but they were only ever in violation of civil law, not criminal law. Do we agree that committing an actual crime, a felony, is drastically different than a civil infraction that warrants only a fine?
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@Greyparrot
I wasn't aware that the powers of government were separated based upon political leanings. Learn something new every day, I guess.
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@Mister_Man
You're being too generous. The only example he gives of something it's acceptable to call "racism" is on the Hitler level. The rest are examples he things are a result of "disingenuous conflation."
Again, if he is going to argue against ambiguity, he is going to have to do better to define the constraints of his proposed phrase. Presenting only the most extreme example is a very poor way of doing that.
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@Mister_Man
Sorry, but I just don’t buy labeling all racists as “the Hitler variety”. Talk about conflating terms. Some 80 year old WASP blaming the ethnic maid for stealing her jewelry is racist, but isn’t Hitler.
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@ethang5
Screen caps/video or it didn't happen.MSNBC and CNN say he is guilty. Fox says it has not been proven in court.
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@Mister_Man
Sorry, but if he is going to grip about he ambiguity of the term, such that we need to invent a new one, then I am going to hold him to a certain level of specificity. If he says that term is to target people of the "Hitler variety" then I'm going to hold him to that.
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"So after 500 days"
"After more than a year"
LOL, The average special counsel investigation is over 3 years long. This one is still in its childhood.
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@spacetime
Ok, I'll bite. For example?What if they're just impartially considering all the possible reasons why there are massive socioeconomic disparities between blacks and every other race?
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@Mister_Man
Nice strawman, lol
Maybe, but it wasn't one I constructed.
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@sadolite
I've been told that they're "very fine people."
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I simply don't believe that any case moving forward is going to rely only on Cohen's testimony.
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@Buddamoose
Then as said, its doubtful his testimony ends up being viewed as legitimate. Prosecution spent most of its time ripping apart Cohens credobility and integrity and throughly did so. For that same person to turn around and be used as a star witness, would be at best, ripped apart by defense, at worst, laughably absurd because his record of behavior alone more than establishes reasonable doubt to conclude he is not being truthful in testimony and rather opportunistic in nature as a means to avoid full extent of prosecution for all crimes.
The credibility and opportunism of a snitch is an inherent problem in turning one criminal against another. It isn't exactly a show-stopper. It's the defense's job to undermine the credibility of the witness and the prosecution's job to supplement witness testimony with evidence.
After all, people said the exact same thing Rick Gates as a witness in Manafort's trial: he's a criminal himself, he's unreliable, yada yada. End result? Manfort guilty on 8 counts.
Now, if we were evaluating a case built only on Cohen's testimony alone, I'd agree that'd be weak, but I seriously doubt that's what's going to happen. It is less what he can say and more about the location of any potential skeletons he's aware of.
And again, its humurous tha you think 130k as a campaign finance violation merits jail time or removal from office. Whether or not Obama himself was involved is irrelevant, and not a damn person out of that finding was prosecuted with jail time, direct involvement or indirect not playing a factor at all.
That would be humorous if I thought that.
Its one thing to say the guy conspired with foreign government agents, thats easily viewable as treason. Its another to say a 130k campaign finance violation is somehow equivalent to the aforementioned at all in severity and would at all reasonably result in jail time or grounds for removal from office.
I agree that those are different crimes, both in degree and kind. But neither is the whole case, is it?
What this investigation has been for awhile now is desperately trying to find something, anything really, that could be construed as a crime, even if that crime itself has nothing to do with the investigations granted purview. Conspiracy with Russia was why the investigation was granted, because that area is actually a severe crime, and so far not a shred of evidence linking Trump to criminal conspiracy with foreign government agents.
Compared to other special prosecutor investigations, this one is a toddler. These things take years to build up a case, and they're not exactly going to be sharing their evidence until they are at trial. Would you, random citizen, expect to be aware of the evidence if there was any? Before indictments, charges, and trial?
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@Greyparrot
Would you say that this special prosecutor is following, in-step, along with previous ones?
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@Greyparrot
This signifies the end rather than the beginning of anything.
You seriously think so? I mean, I'm not so optimistic as to think Trump will ever get impeached. Heck, prior to the results of the midterm elections I'm not so optimistic as to think Trump won't get re-elected. But to think that this is the end of "anything?" That I just don't buy.
Manafort is a fall guy for sure. Trump basically just praised him for being one! Cohen appears to be cooperating and, under oath, implicated Trump in criminal activity. This isn't an end or a beginning, it's just another step.
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Since Mafia is having a bit of a time getting off of the ground, I was thinking about alternate games to drum up activity (and potentially new users). A low-activity forum without special coding really isn't ideal for doing Dungeons and Dragons but... what the hay.
Basically here's how it works:
1. We'll do daily posting. Each day, I'll post a description of what's going on and the players each post a response. The next day I'll post a new description, incorporating the players' speech, action, and decisions.
2. I'll handle all dice rolling on my side and simply include the results in my descriptions (making this more role-playing instead of roll-playing on the part of the players).
3. Combat will be truncated and streamlined.
4. Roleplaying between PCs (player characters) is free-for-all, not limited to one-per-day. But to keep things in synch, not all player-player interactions may be incorporated when I post my daily descriptions.
Sign Ups:
1.
2.
3.
4.
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@Earth
Here's an interesting question. Most of the debates are by this Type1 guy, as was mine. Having won against him, his ELO is now lowered. Does that affect the ELO calculation? By winning against him first, have I somehow sabotaged people who are going to win against him in the near future?
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So, unless people are literally committing genocide, we're not allowed to call out racism? We'll take it under consideration.
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@Smithereens
It is showing correctly now. I guess it took a while for the database to update.
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@Buddamoose
In his plea hearing, Cohen basically said he did it all at the direction of a presidential candidate for the purposes of influencing the election. I don't know if anyone in the Obama campaign testified that they did it at the direct instructions of Obama himself.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
Wow, I didn't realize not raping people would be such a controversial thing to say for you!
Also, that's not what "dog whistle" means.
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Forget about slavery. You want statues of your leaders and generals and flags over government buildings, don't be shit at war and lose.
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Like out of some courtroom drama, within the span of an hour, Michael Cohen pled, and Paul Manafort was found, guilty on 8 counts.
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Depends on why he deported him.
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@ravensjt
Because if an omnipotent being is a logically impossible being, then that would seem to rule out there being a god.
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@Smithereens
Imagine your life as a movie on a movie reel, except the end of the reel is taped to the beginning, so that it repeats and continues endlessly. Your your entire life exists as a whole on the reel. The only real question is why you perceive yourself as existing in this moment as opposed to any other.
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@Castin
I'll suspend judgment until I hear that the task force has actually done something worth being concerned about. If it remains unbiased, protects all religions equally, doesn't infringe upon the liberties of the non-religious, and doesn't push people around under the guise of "defending religious freedom", then I will have no problem with it.
There is a (somewhat) open question about whether or not we should accept as a check on government power and abuse the character of the people that populate it. That is, should we judge whether or not to allow the government have some power based upon how the best person will use it or based upon how the worst person will use it.
If we recognize that it is much harder to take away power than it is to grant it, then I think it is prudent to err on the side of very reluctantly allowing power to increase, no matter how favorably we view the person currently wielding it. You can never know who will end up wielding that power in the future. For example, I liked Obama and think he was a decent president and a good man. Yet I objected to his use of drone strikes. My feelings about Obama's use of that power notwithstanding, that power (which has allowed to persist) now rests in the hands of someone who is, generously speaking, an unstable megalomaniac.
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@Smithereens
We could conceive of a different kind of eternity, then. Instead of a line extending infinitely in all directions, a "loop" that resets and repeats. Always has been and always will.
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@Analgesic.Spectre
I'd be interested in hearing what your objective evaluation of the OP's linked source is.
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@Tejretics
I think it's true that African-American people, for instance, have statistically lower IQ than white people -- I wouldn't say that saying that is necessarily racist. The problem, I think, is that IQ is a deeply flawed measure of intelligence constructed in a way that privileges people with other social and economic privilege.
Forgive me of I choose not to miss the forest for the trees, here. I agree with your second sentence, so let's evaluate the first in light of that agreement:
Acknowledging it as a flawed measure of anything other than the ability to take an IQ test, why would anyone bring this up as a point! The OP isn't a poorly programmed robot mindlessly spouting bad science trivial. There is a purpose, a reason, why certain groups of people roll out the "Blacks don't IQ" misinformation: they think blacks are mentally inferior to whites and want to believe that science backs them on this.
Just read the OP. Now it isn't just IQ, it's ability to "function in society", it's linked to crime and poverty. So, now not only do blacks have low IQ, but the're criminals, poor, and unable to function in civilization. And should we take bets on what OP believes the genesis of their poverty is? Do we think OP believes it's a result of centuries of oppression, social stigma, systemic racism, and willingness of the government to too readily look away from the problem? Or because it's the black's fault because they're spending all their time doing crimes and not being educated and functioning in society?
So yes. Yes it is racist. Fuck yeah it's racist. You can't unironically trot out that point and not be racist. It only serves one agenda.
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@Zarroette
So pointing out something that is factually accurate (racial differences) is akin to being "literally Hitler".
I'm not aware of where or when I made that comparison.
If you bothered to read the OP properly (not a bad idea to do before commenting), then you'd know this term is meaningless.
Except I provided an easy-to-use link you can click to find out what its meaning is.
You haven't posted a shred of evidence to support your claims (unlike me). Instead, you've just called people whom disagree with you names, as if that's going to convince anyone (hint: it's not). This is a debate site where we post evidence/studies/sources to support what we say. If you can't rebut my racial claims without calling me a meaningless term (racist), then you don't belong here.
Well, I did. I provided a link to the meaning of "racist" which shows it has meaning. And it probably wasn't written by a right-wing crank, either. ;)
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@Smithereens
Loaded question: it presumes it had to "come" from somewhere. Perhaps your mind is eternal. The only thing that has existed and the only thing that will ever exist, fabricating a universe of causes and physicality to hold onto some semblance of sanity or, perhaps, as a symptom of insanity.
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@DebateArt.com
block mechanism for PM, please add I need to block someone tyGoing to work on this and other things in the next 2-3 weeks.
Yes, I would like to block someone as well.
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@Zarroette
Lol. Being factual about provable racial differences is "racist".
It can be, yes. Indeed, racism often depends on the differences between races.
So you're attempting to rebut my claim that racism is purely a slanderous term to discredit, and in doing so you're using a purely slanderous term to discredit.
I don't think you know what slander means.
Blacks have, on average, lower I.Q. than whites. Deal with it.
You're a racist. Deal with it.
Wrong. They can accurately predict crime and poverty.
I think you have your causal factors mixed up.
You're just an emotional zealot triggered out of your mind by the mention of race, and are evidently unable to comprehend the fact that races are different. Just a pathetic man, honestly.
I'm not the one who started the thread, hon. I never said races aren't different. The categorization, as vague and as it may be, is never the less rooted in differences among people, however superficial. But I didn't think this thread was about races and was about you trying to get a free pass to spout racist nonsense without being called out as a racist.
My bad.
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@Zarroette
To accuse someone of racism or being a racist, is nothing but a slanderous invocation.
Only if it it's a false statement of fact and causes some sort of damage to your reputation.
Today,racism is demonised to the point of self-parody,
LOL, as opposed to when it was a term of endearment?
but if we take a moment to analyse its usage, we can see that it means nothing.
I disagree. (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism)
Let's say someone says that blacks need to be put back into slavery because they're not worthy of regular jobs. Most people are going to say that's racist.Let's say someone says that black people have lower I.Q. than white people. Again, you'll be met with the term racist.
Yes. Both of those terms are racist.
And here you see the issue. The first claim could be (rightly) seen as racial hatred. The second claim is factual and supported by a ridiculous amount of evidence (http://humanvarieties.org...),yet the conclusion is that they are both "racist".In order words, it's still possible to be correct *and* "racist", however the latter label will have you pigeon-holed with real racial hatred (as we saw in the former example), as if you're wrong for pointing out facts.
A website written by an antisemitc crank hardly constitutes "a ridiculous amount of evidence." Regardless of its factuality, both should be seen as racial hatred and deserve to have those that adhere to those ideas as pigeon-holed with "real racial hatred." Not for pointing out "facts" but for spouting racial hatred.
That leads us to ask the question: what can we infer from the labelling of "racist?"
That you hold some races to be inferior or less deserving of others.
Not a whole lot, other than the fact that both claims refer to race. So merely referring to race, as if that's as bad as being Hitler, gets you called a "racist", and we know what happens when you're confirmed as such. So, there's a gigantic disconnect between the real parameters of "racism" (that it merely refers to race), and the application of it (that you're "literally Hitler"). That's because it doesn't have a concrete definition -- it merely exist to shut down reference to race.
References to race have little to no utility. Except to combat historical and systemic racism.
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@Smithereens
On a purely philosophical level, I just don't think solipsism can be discounted. For example, I posit that you took anesthesia and, at the moment you think it should have worked, a super powerful demon knocked you unconscious with a mind ray.
Or the server holding your mind went down for routine maintenance.
Not to mention the issue of causality. Does it really exist? Or are our experiences merely a succession of unrelated events?
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@secularmerlin
Well, no. It's something we take for granted. I don't even know what evidence of that sort would look like. We would necessarily receive it through our senses. In order for us to trust that evidence, we would first need to trust our senses. To then use it as evidence that our senses are trust worthy is circular.
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Well, if the universe is defined to be everything that exists, then it tautologically exists.
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@Buddamoose
It's not entirely uncontroversial for those reasons, but I can see the legal argument for treating them equally. Morally, however, I think the solicitation is less than the actual murder.
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@Buddamoose
Well, P3 would also be charged with "conspiracy." Also, the legal theory of "felony murder" could be argued to apply to P1 as well, making them as legally culpable for P2's death as P3 is.
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