Total posts: 5,653
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As the vote stands currently, no player has a majority to Lynch and the DP will end in a No Lynch
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Vote Count
Press - 3/4 - SirAnon, Zaradi, Pie
Pie - 1/4 - Lunatic
Zaradi - 2/4 - Speed, Press
All players are voting, triggering the end of the DP. Since this is slightly different than the norm, I am granting a 1 hour buffer. You may change your vote from one player to another (or VTNL) but you may not simply unvote.
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@ILikePie5
@Zaradi
Vote Count
Press - 1/4 - SirAnon
Pie - 1/4 - Lunatic
Zaradi - 2/4 - Speed, Press
Not Voting - Pie, Zaradi
The DP will end in about 3 hours (or when all players have voted). All players not voting when the Day Phase ends will be removed from the game.
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@ILikePie5
@Zaradi
Vote Count
Press - 1/4 - SirAnon
Pie - 1/4 - Lunatic
Zaradi - 2/4 - Speed, Press
Not Voting - Pie, Zaradi
The DP will end in less than 5 hours (or when all players have voted). All players not voting when the Day Phase ends will be removed from the game.
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Vote Count
Press - 2/4 - Zaradi, SirAnon
Pie - 1/4 - Lunatic
Zaradi - 2/4 - Speed, Press
Not Voting - Pie
The DP will end in less than 6 hours (or when all players have voted). All players not voting when the Day Phase ends will be removed from the game.
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@PressF4Respect
A bomb only kills its killer if the bomb itself dies.
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Vote Count
Press - 1/4 - Zaradi
Pie - 2/4 - Lunatic, SirAnon
Zaradi - 2/4 - Speed, Press
Not Voting - Pie
The DP will end in less than 7 hours (or when all players have voted). All players not voting when the Day Phase ends will be removed from the game.
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Vote Count
Press - 2/4 - Zaradi, SirAnon
Pie - 1/4 - Lunatic
Zaradi - 2/4 - Speed, Press
Not Voting - Pie
The DP will end in less than 7 hours (or when all players have voted). All players not voting when the Day Phase ends will be removed from the game.
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Vote Count
Press - 1/4 - Zaradi
Speed - 1/4 - SirAnon
Pie - 1/4 - Lunatic
Zaradi - 2/4 - Speed, Press
Not Voting - Pie
The DP will end in less than 9 hours (or when all players have voted). All players not voting when the Day Phase ends will be removed from the game.
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@Speedrace
Hello, my name is drafterman.
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@Athias
Because no one would willingly accept a lower value if they believed they could get it for a higher one.Even if they considered the means and provisions of their prospective employer?
Yes
I fundamentally disagree with your theory of valuation.Why is that?
Because of the existence of other theories of valuation and that fact that no one has been awarded a Nobel Prize in economics for definitively proving one correct and the others incorrect.
Of course there is a necessary disparity between adults and adolescents in this context. It's one of the reasons why contracts involving minors are voidable at any time on behalf of the minor.Saying that "there's a reason," is not same as giving the reason. And the disparity between adults and minors it merely arbitrary. It's a manifestation of the delusion known as Parens Patriae.
I disagree that the disparity between adults and minors is merely arbitrary. There are immense biological and psychological differences.
People can be duped into "agreeing" to less than satisfactory arrangements. Happens all the time.If they were "less than satisfactory" then why'd they agree in the first place?
Because they were duped.
If they in retrospect determined that they could've done better, that's not deception; that experience.
Experience, exactly, something adults have massive amounts more than children, on average. I categorize using one's advanced experience to exploit another's lack of experience to be "duping."
I disagree.You believe there are other sound theories? Please list one other.
No.So what else ought to be considered outside of each party's willful agreement?
For one, whether or not the agreement is fair to each party involved. Again, one of the reasons contracts can be voided is because they are too one-sided (unconscionable.)
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@ILikePie5
Yes, it would be as if the new target was always their target.If Mafia perform and NK on someone and it gets redirected to the bomb, does the mafia die?
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Vote Count
Press - 1/4 - Zaradi
Speed - 1/4 - SirAnon
Pie - 1/4 - Lunatic
Zaradi - 2/4 - Speed, Press
Not Voting - Pie
The DP will end in less than 11 hours (or when all players have voted). All players not voting when the Day Phase ends will be removed from the game.
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@Stephen
Some people discovered that if you put in just a period "." for the Topic name when creating a new topic it would result in errors when attempting to view that topic.
To counteract this, the admin has put a form of input validation, part of which requires that the Topic name be at least three alphabetic characters. It is likely the "-" part of your topic name is throwing an error.
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@crossed
Nothing you've said is genius level. I don't even think you know what the word means. He sees shapes and appears to have a better understanding of mathematical concepts then he used to have.
You are placing him on the level of Einstein and Stephen Hawking.
What makes them geniuses is that they actually advanced the boundaries of human knowledge. They saw things other people didn't then proved those things to be true.
Has this guy done anything on that level? All you've shown me is a guy that sees shapes and can draw geometric figures.
Link me to a single research paper that he's published.
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@crossed
Okay so that's a no, then. You're just making stuff up. Got it.
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Vote Count
Press - 1/4 - Zaradi
Speed - 1/4 - SirAnon
Pie - 2/4 - Lunatic, Press
Zaradi - 1/4 - Speed
Not Voting - Pie
There are about 12 hours left in the DP (or when all players have voted). All players not voting when the Day Phase ends will be removed from the game.
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@crossed
His teacher drew an equation first day at school after incident he understood it instantly.His teacher talks about how he was drawing all these complex math problems that have to do with shapes and very not understandable things and know one understood him.He is good at math.I was trying to give you a ruff idea.
Does he or does he not multiply large numbers very quickly? Yes or no.
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@crossed
Focus man. We are talking about one thing right now:
You said he can multiply large numbers together very quickly. Where does he do this exact thing.
I am not talking about him not knowing the terminology in math.
I am not talking about him understanding that all shapes are all pi (which is false, btw)
I am talking about your claim that he can multiply large numbers very quickly.
Where does he do this exact thing?
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@crossed
here him describing it
He's describing seeing and drawing shapes, not multiplying large numbers instantly.
here his him going back to school and his teacher talking about how genius he is
More about him drawing shapes and meeting his wife.
Okay, that's him getting brain scans.here him getting brain scans by scientist so they could find out why he is a genius now
You said he can multiply large numbers together very quickly. Does that actually happen at all in the video?
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@crossed
Link me to the timestamp in the clip.
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@crossed
He is good at math.He is your typical wrights a couple thousand numbers on the wall.Solve an equation.Ask him what 25954496955966095609 time 459654646 and he could give you the answer in a couple seconds.What is so hard to understand
Does he do this in the video?
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@crossed
Name me one specific thing that he has done that makes him smarter than Einstein? Don't link me to a 13 minute video. You tell me. In your own words.
Just one thing. One mathematical thing he has done that makes him smarter than Einstein.
Alternatively, you can tell me the specific timestamp in the video where they address this.
Alternatively, you can tell me the specific timestamp in the video where they address this.
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@crossed
Okay, and I'm asking you, what specifically makes him a "genius?" I don't deny that he has savantism; he's been officially diagnosed as such. But savantism isn't genius. You are saying this man is a genius. What quality makes him a genius?
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@crossed
Savantism and genius are two different things.
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@crossed
i did not know the correct terminology.So i Babied it down to make it understandable.I do not know the name of thousand of parts of the brain. or how they are powered.Without this knowledge i can not explain the process without replacing those with familiar thing. this is the easy way to explain it
Except without using proper terminology it's just drivel. It isn't "understandable" or a theory at all. It's just random words strewn on a screen.
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@crossed
This is your theory. I expect for you to be able to explain it. What, exactly, makes him a genius?
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Here is my massive list of roles. It is essentially my own wiki:
Every role that is in the role pool (and therefore every role in this game) can be found on the list. It includes the name of the role and the Role PM each player receives. It includes game play notes and any messages those roles generate.
The Set-Up doc has links to the individual roles for easy searching.
As per the set-up information, the game was randomized without concern for balance.
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Vote Count
Press - 1/4 - Zaradi
Speed - 1/4 - SirAnon
Pie - 3/4 - Lunatic, Press, Speed
Not Voting - Pie
There are less than 15 hours left in the DP. All players not voting when the Day Phase ends will be removed from the game.
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Vote Count
Press - 2/4 - ILikePie, Zaradi
Speed - 1/4 - SirAnon
Pie - 1/4 - Lunatic
Not Voting - Press, Speed
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@Zaradi
Vote Count
Press - 1/4 - ILikePie
Speed - 1/4 - SirAnon
Pie - 1/4 - Lunatic
Not Voting - Press, Speed, Zaradi
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@Speedrace
Disc said roles were chosen randomly
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@Speedrace
Hello, my name is drafterman.
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Vote Count
Press - 1/4 - ILikePie
Speed - 1/4 - SirAnon
Not Voting - Press, Lunatic, Speed, Zaradi
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@Athias
Given this extremely narrow definition of value, I would say that "duped" would be them being convinced to take the job for the lowest value in this range.That's convenient. How does accepting the lowest value suggest deception?
Because no one would willingly accept a lower value if they believed they could get it for a higher one.
Both buyers and sellers are "willing" to buy and sell within a range. The buyer presumably has maximum and the seller a minimum. It is more likely that these ranges overlap rather than terminate on a single exact number. If the buyer's max is, say, $20/hour and the seller's minimum is, say, $5/hour, then the "value" of their service would be between $5 and $20/hour as any number in that range is a mutually agreeable amount.The value is the amount at which the transaction occurs. Using your example, it can fall withing the range you suggested, but if they both agree to $5, then the value is $5. If they agree to $20, then the value is $20.Clearly the buyer wants the lower end and the seller would want the higher end. A "fair" value I would think would be at least as much as the market average.A "fair" value is the amount to which they both agree. It is their interests which matter most in their contract, not those of anyone else.
I fundamentally disagree with your theory of valuation.
I reject the notion that a 16 year old and an adult (or adults) negotiate on an even playing field.You can reject it; but there's no necessary disparity between adults and adolescents in this context. The adolescent sells labor; the adult purchases it. What else needs to be negotiated?
Of course there is a necessary disparity between adults and adolescents in this context. It's one of the reasons why contracts involving minors are voidable at any time on behalf of the minor.
A teenager with little to no real world experience is at an inherent disadvantage and the "duping" comes from the exploitation by the adults in using that disadvantage to vie for a lower price.Specious argument. None of that matters; the only things that matter are the goals and interests of the parties involved. If the teenager is satisfied with accepting employment at $6 and the adults are satisfied with offering employment at $6, then there's no disadvantage or deception. If the teen doesn't agree, then the teen preferably would seek a better arrangement with another party. I would however not suggest a price floor be imposed dictating all legal arrangements.
People can be duped into "agreeing" to less than satisfactory arrangements. Happens all the time.
But, again, this is all assuming that value is only determined by mutually agreed upon price ranges. Subjective theory of value isn't the only theory out there and I don't feel it's the end-all-be-all when it comes to such valuations.Subjective theory of value is the one sound theory.
I disagree.
"Should" is a loaded term. There are things that "can" be considered, such as the specific duties required of the babysitter, the ages and number of the kids involved, the temperaments of the kids involved, the day of week, the time of day, whether or not the babysitter requires or can supply transportation, etc...And you're under the presumption that a teenager doesn't consider these contingencies before accepting employment for $6 an hour?
No.
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Vote Count
Press - 2/4 - ILikePie, Zaradi
Speed - 1/4 - SirAnon
Not Voting - Press, Lunatic, Speed
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Vote Count
Press - 1/4 - ILikePie
Speed - 1/4 - SirAnon
Lunatic - 1/4 - Zaradi
Not Voting - Press, Lunatic, Speed
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@ILikePie5
Correct, a player must get a majority of votes to be lynched.
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@Athias
How are they "duped"? Do they not understand the difference between $6 and more? The value of their labor is not in the least bit objective. Its value in the labor market is determined by the amount someone else is willing to pay for it meeting the amount for which you're willing to sell it.
Given this extremely narrow definition of value, I would say that "duped" would be them being convinced to take the job for the lowest value in this range.
Both buyers and sellers are "willing" to buy and sell within a range. The buyer presumably has maximum and the seller a minimum. It is more likely that these ranges overlap rather than terminate on a single exact number. If the buyer's max is, say, $20/hour and the seller's minimum is, say, $5/hour, then the "value" of their service would be between $5 and $20/hour as any number in that range is a mutually agreeable amount.
Clearly the buyer wants the lower end and the seller would want the higher end. A "fair" value I would think would be at least as much as the market average. I reject the notion that a 16 year old and an adult (or adults) negotiate on an even playing field. A teenager with little to no real world experience is at an inherent disadvantage and the "duping" comes from the exploitation by the adults in using that disadvantage to vie for a lower price.
But, again, this is all assuming that value is only determined by mutually agreed upon price ranges. Subjective theory of value isn't the only theory out there and I don't feel it's the end-all-be-all when it comes to such valuations.
Neither. You've stated that $6 is underpaid. If the teenage babysitter agrees to this, and the employers agree to this, what else should be considered?
"Should" is a loaded term. There are things that "can" be considered, such as the specific duties required of the babysitter, the ages and number of the kids involved, the temperaments of the kids involved, the day of week, the time of day, whether or not the babysitter requires or can supply transportation, etc...
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@ILikePie5
If everyone places a vote, the DP ends. If no one has a majority in that case (e.g. 3-3) the day phase would end in a No Lynch (barring changes by any roles or abilities).
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@Athias
No, it's not. Teenage babysitters are private contractors who are often paid cash. Some reports have their pay as high as $30 and as low as $6.
I couldn't find a rate lower than $11. Regardless, I fully admit that plenty of people are duped into working well below the value of their labor or service.
Please elaborate.
Why? Are you denying existence of factors outside "subjective preferences of the involved parties" or are you just personally interested in mine?
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Vote Count
Zaradi - 1/4 - ILikePie
Speed - 1/4 - SirAnon
Lunatic - 1/4 - Zaradi
Not Voting - Press, Lunatic, Speed
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@Athias
So then what is your contention? Because clearly volunteerism or "slavery"--informing my characterization of your dichotomy as "specious"--is a non sequitur.
That is my contention. OP is suggesting allowance of a situation that is either redundant (volunteerism) and therefor unnecessary or a situation that is abhorrent (slavery) and therefore.
According to which standard do you pay your babysitter? Did you calculate all of his or her living costs and determine that he or she ought to be paid anywhere between $15-20? Or did you arbitrarily choose that amount based on your babysitter's, as well as your own, preferences?
It's the going rate in this area.
My point is, if the 16 year-old babysitter agrees to work for $6 an hour, and his or her employers agree to pay him or her $6 an hour, how is he or she being "underpaid"?
Because $6 is less than the worth of babysitting services anywhere.
Are there considerations outside the subjective preferences of the involved parties that should be taken into account?
Yes.
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@Athias
Yes it allows for the possibility for one to work at $0. But once again, it's a starting point. He isn't presenting your specious dichotomy of slavery or volunteerism.
Rejecting the qualifier of specious, I presented that dichotomy. I never said the OP did.
And this amount isn't at all subjective?
What do you mean?
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@Athias
<br>We're not talking about the number 0. We're talking about the "minimum" which the OP suggests should go as low as zero. Essentially, OP's argument is this: w (wages) ≥ 0 (relative); not w (wages) = 0 (absolute.)
Either this scenario allows for the existence of people working for nothing or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then there is no reason to drop it to 0 in the first place. If it does, then my objection stands.
How much should they get paid?
We usually pay ours $15-$20/hour.
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@Athias
Unless the person pays to work. But that's not what I was talking about. 0 is merely the starting point. A person can work for 1 cent of 1 million dollars; that's the point.
Op is literally talking about working "for nothing while they are being trained."
For nothing being, absolutely, not relatively, 0.
So how does a 16 year-old's babysitting for six dollars fit that description? (And there are no contingencies because you replied to my question with a mere yes.)
Oh, I thought the deliberate and conspicuous emphasis that I added (then called explicit attention to) would make it abundantly obvious: paying them 6 dollars an hour is underpaying them. Grossly so.
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@Athias
It may have been a significant factor in the northern public's evaluation of slavery, but nonetheless, slavery is still the de jure and/or de factor ownership of another person. It's isn't the amount that informs slavery; it's the fact that a person can "own" another person with impunity.
Okay.
No, the OP is suggesting that no employer be bound to a legal minimum (or a minimum of 0.) He's not directly suggesting that it be legal for one to work at the amount of 0. Remember "minimum" is a relative scale, not an absolute one.
I disagree. 0 is about as absolute as you can get.
Define sweatshop.
"Sweatshop is a pejorative term for a workplace that has very poor, socially unacceptable working conditions. The work may be difficult, dangerous, climatically challenged or underpaid." (Emphasis mine). And, depending on the kids being watched, difficult, dangerous and climatically challenged also applies!
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@Athias
Except "slavery" isn't characterized by the amount for which one works; it's characterized by de jure or de facto ownership. If I were to "own" another person, I could pay them $100 an hour, and they would still be my slave.
One of the primary objections to slavery (at the time) from the north wasn't the immorality of owning people but rather the economic impact of having a class of unpaid individuals. The "forced free work" was a significant factor in the issue of slavery in the US, one that we cannot ignore. And if we remove the "forced" part, then it's just volunteerism as I said, which is already allowed. So either the OP is redundantly suggesting we need to allow for something that is already allowed or they are suggesting something akin to slavery.
Let's test that theory: according to you, a 16 year-old babysitter who works for six dollars an hour is essentially working in a proverbial "sweatshop"?
Yes.
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