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Vote Count
Zaradi - 1/4 - ILikePie
Speed - 1/4 - SirAnon
Not Voting - Press, Lunatic, Zaradi, Speed
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@Athias
Slavery is illegal and it should stay that way.Working for "nothing" isn't slavery.
It's either slavery or volunteerism. Volunteerism already exists in the status quo so the only new thing that could be proposed here would be slavery.
We have also abolished sweatshops as well.Are those the only jobs offered below minimum wage?
Yes, or something so similar that disputing the differences would be an exercise in pointless and irrelevant semantics.
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Vote Count
Zaradi - 1/4 - ILikePie
Not Voting - Press, Lunatic, Zaradi, SirAnon, Speed
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@ILikePie5
@Speedrace
@SirAnonymous
DP1 Begins
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@Lunatic
@PressF4Respect
@Zaradi
DP1 Begins
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Setup: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zIrMexPXe7UvdIKoL1NJ7331gRAyAVqSMpvytT9Ahls/edit?usp=sharing
Rules: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sJhZVByoBRh2ieqazkKlC9hFsiJjwWGFiwktRmJ5usE/edit?usp=sharing
Died in the Night
No One
Graveyard
Empty
Living Players
- Press
- Lunatic
- Zaradi
- SirAnon
- Speed
- Pie
With 6 players, it takes 4 votes to lynch. The day phase will end on 11/20 at 10:00pm EST or when all players have voted.
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@crossed
3 Guy beat up by 1 men to near death.Woke genius
What makes him a genius, exactly? Can you link to any of his research papers or advances in mathematics? Seems to me his claim to fame is: "draws lots of shapes."
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@ILikePie5
All role PMs have been sent out. NP1 begins and will end on 11/18 at 10:00pm EST or when all actions have been submitted.
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@Lunatic
@Speedrace
@PressF4Respect
@SirAnonymous
@Zaradi
All role PMs have been sent out. NP1 begins and will end on 11/18 at 10:00pm EST or when all actions have been submitted.
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Sign-Ups
1. Press
2. Lunatic
3. Zaradi
4. SirAnon
5. Speed
6. Pie
Role PMs going out shortly.
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Okay, the current and next Mafia games are more "Mafia adjacent" and the mod of the current game is a bit MIA. In the mean time, I'd like to run a quickfire game using my Semi-Open Setup for 6 players. This first series will essentially be a trial run of this configuration. I encourage everyone to read to get the full rules, but the TL;DR is:
- Semi-Open: the ratios of town to third party to mafia is known. The pool that roles are selected from is known, but not the subset that is selected for the game. Within each affiliation, roles are unique. Roles with identical functions are named differently between Town and Mafia (e.g. Tracker. vs Scout)
- The game is Night Start. Instead of starting at DP1 leading into NP1, it will be NP1 leading into DP1.
- Third-Parties may joint depending on the specifics of the role.
- With 6 players, the ratio will be 4 town, 1 third party, and 1 mafia.
Also, here are my generic Mafia Rules. TL;DR:
- Day Phases are 36 hours or when all players have voted (not just when someone gets a majority VTL).
- Players not voting if the time limit has been reached are removed from game. (This is the only requirement for activity)
- If a role calls for a Twilight Phase, it will begin at the end of the Day Phase and last 12 hours or until all actions have been submitted.
- If a game uses Twilight Phases, the results of the lynch won't be revealed until after the Twilight Phase has ended.
- Night phases last 24 hours or when all actions have been submitted.
- Players not submitting actions when their respective Twilight or Night Phase ends will be removed from game.
- Actions may only be waived explicitly.
- Mafia has a Captain that decides the NK (target and who carries it out). If they do not submit the action, the Mafia forfeits its NK.
- Use of encryption or external sites to convey information is forbidden (no deciphering schemes or use of Google Documents for arguments)
Sign-Ups
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@crossed
MY THEORYI have this theory. I believe the brain reroutes power to other sections of the brain when part of the brain is broken. For example
- talking part of brain 20 Volts of power.
- learning part of brain 20 Volts of power
- critical thinking part of brain 20 Volts of power
- mathematical part of brain 20 g of power
Voltage is not a measure of power, it is a measure of electric potential/force. Watts is a measure of electrical power. The total power consumption of the brain is around 20 Watts. The voltage of an individual neuron is around 0.07 volts. But neurons work in parallel rather than serial, so the overall voltage drop of the brain (if such a thing is even meaningful) would be extraordinarily small.
While talking, critical thinking, and even math may be concentrated in certain regions of the brain, they aren't distinct and isolated and there is overlap. These regions also aren't all the same size or have the same consumption of resources. Nor is there a single "learning" part of the brain as the entire brain is an organ that "learns."
This is an average brain. But lets say someone gets beat up and there talking part of the brain is not working. I believe that the power that was being used for the talking part of the brain would get rerouted to other parts of the brain that are working. Because talking part does not work.
The power would be related to the overall consumption of power by individual cells. If some of those cells stop working, the overall power consumption would drop. That said, in response to injury the brain has been known to establish new pathways around "dead" areas.
SO now the brain would look like this after the power from the broken talking part is rerouted
- Talking part of the brain 0 power
- learning part of the brain 25 power
- critical thinking part of the brain 25
- mathematical part of the brain 30
Now that is my theory on why we have socially weird geniuses.It would explain stuff like this
This theory fails to account for the fact that people with significant brain damage aren't geniuses, they are people with significant brain damage that require enormous amounts of care and support to live and function in society.
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@Speedrace
There was a game in DDO once that was a troll game by the mod where they ended up getting a majority to lynch him.
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@warren42
Don't stress. I felt it was fairly balanced. There are plenty of roles that have mechanics that can change in the middle of a game. Regardless, the role PM should openly contain all such mechanics, whether or not they are commonly understood. But you seem to have remedied that before anyone would have noticed: max knew it well in advance of LYLO and before the rolecop copped him, so no one was particularly disadvantaged from this fact.
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@Vader
drafter is definetly town
That is slander.
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people can work for nothing while they are being trained,
Slavery is illegal and it should stay that way.
or work for less if they are less experienced.
We have also abolished sweatshops as well.
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On the one hand, I'm not inclined to hold GP's VTNL against him. We're all trying to adapt instincts developed from normal Mafia to a rather novel concept. It will involve a period of adjustment.
On the other, a RL is a RL and GP is as good as anyone else.
Unvote. VTL GP
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Oh, I saw it. I'm not particularly interested in responding.
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@PressF4Respect
The problem with this is there is a 40% chance you are an SK target. Ignoring the SKs all fine and dandy if you are a survivor that isn't a target (since they have no incentive to kill you, but you have no way of knowing if that is the case.I just realized something.“Survivors win by being alive when mafia meets their objective, town meets their objective, or all living serial killers have met their objective.”Simply lynching SK targets isn’t going to work (at least if you guys want to win, assuming that you guys are survivors), because if any SK lives to the end and fails their objective, that means we lose too. This reduces the chances that we cripple SK without also making ourselves lose to 2/11. Coupled with the 5/6 chance of shooting ourselves (anti-SK) in the foot, it’s clear that random voting won’t work.Again, I’m completely willing to change my mind, but as I see it right now, VTNLing is the smartest thing to do.
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@AvoidDeath
This is a fairly interesting setup. We're going to have to design a brand new play book.
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@AvoidDeath
Killing mafia only matters if you're town or sk.
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@SirAnonymous
You would still have to count yourself because you could be an SK target.
That's why the +1/3 doesn't change. You discount yourself from the "hitting an SK" calculation which changes it from 2/12 to 2/11.
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@WaterPhoenix
Hey, it's mafia, not survivor lol
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@AvoidDeath
The numbers I provided are independent of POV. When you look at it from a specific, non-SK point of view they change.
Instead of the probability of hitting an SK being 2 in 12, it's actually 2 in 11 because you wouldn't count yourself.
This makes the overall odds of ruining an SK day 2/11 + 1/3 or 51.51...%
I get that this isn't much comfort to you, being the target of a VTL, but from an objective standpoint it is a solid argument for a RL. If you have a better target, maybe we can agree on that.
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@SirAnonymous
Would you say it is true or false that Grey was blaming just TUF?
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@AvoidDeath
What % would you be comfortable with?
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@WaterPhoenix
I'm not suggesting that roleblockers don't use their abilities, I'm simply saying survivors shouldn't hold out hopes that they will be saved by a lucky roleblock.
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@WaterPhoenix
Drafter- Lean Lean town: He's basically town except for that weird part at the beginning where he said for role blockers not to use their role blocking abilities which sounded kind of serial killer like
I don't remember saying this.
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@AvoidDeath
There is no reason to vtl right now. Like Water said, if we vote it would probably be completely random.
Agreed, that is what this is. It is a RL.
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@SirAnonymous
The way I see it is this: DP4+ went as bad as it could have possibly gone, with the possible exception of mislynching at MYLO (when they VTNL). Basically you could have put anyone there and they couldn't have done worse. Yet, a fair possibility a different arrangement of players with different mindsets and a different sequence of events could have done better.
And one need not even invoke relative skillsets, this is a probability from the simple fact that would have been mathematically impossible to do worse. There would have been no where else to go but up.
And yeah, I will admit that I let myself get too worked up in response to TUF and I did some counter productive things. But you have to consider that his tactics seem deliberately chosen to evoke those kinds of responses. I find his tactics to be inherently deceptive and he consistently refuses to address the arguments and statements people actually make. I see no clearer case in point than this exchange:
Here Grey is lodging a complaint at, and to, all of Town except TUF. Yet here is TUF's response:
Where TUF responds to it as if was a complaint aimed only at TUF. TUF accuses Grey of trying to pin it all on TUF when that is literally the exact opposite of what Grey was saying.
It's these kinds of tactics that set me off, and I will admit that I let it get to me more than I should, to the detriment of the game.
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@WaterPhoenix
An SK loses if we lynch them. That's 1-in-12.
There are two, so that's 1-in-6 of lynching an SK out right.
An SK also loses if we lynch one of their targets. Each SK has two targets. So a 1-in-6 chance of lynching one of an SK's target.
Two SK's so that's a 1-in-3 change of lynching an SK target.
Combined, that's a 1-in-2 chance of lynching either an SK or one of their targets and voiding their win-con. Which, as the mod says, eliminates their ability to kill which helps everyone in the long run.
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@SirAnonymous
Except his reasons for thinking those people were scumming were trash and it would have been preferable to NL in those cases. His poor play is in continuing to push for bad lynches rather than not lynching at all.Maybe, but no lynches don't catch mafia. By that logic, he should have VTNLed from DP4 onward because there was so little evidence against anyone.
Agreed. That would have at least bought an additional day phase, maybe even two.
Again, not in his failure to catch Speed.It's impossible to separate the two. If he's not lynching Speed, then he is lynching town or no one.
Yes, and he chose to mys-lynch people. I'll admit that I'm just a bit irritated that I worked to get actual mafia lynched and that was used as a case to mislynch me, but for some reason TUF mislynching 4 townies is a stroke of genius.
Also, it was logical to start bandwagons to avoid getting lynched himself and leaving town with a bunch of largely inactive players. Furthermore, if he had simply allowed a series of no lynches, I'm guessing that you would be just as hard on him for not even trying.
Okay, well if you're just going to make those kinds of assumptions then I don't understand why we are having a conversation at all. You can just make up my side of the conversation yourself.
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@SirAnonymous
Because the two things are inseparable. Without any reason to suspect Speed, the only alternatives are mislynching or not lynching at all. Since there was so little against Speed, town players who looked somewhat scummy were more logical suspects.
Except his reasons for thinking those people were scumming were trash and it would have been preferable to NL in those cases. His poor play is in continuing to push for bad lynches rather than not lynching at all. Again, not in his failure to catch Speed.
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@WaterPhoenix
I think that's the intention, yes.
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@SirAnonymous
Yes, there is. You can only lynch one at a time, but it is still a good idea to discuss other possibilities so you have an idea of what to do when you're wrong.
I don't see it that way.
He failed because he had insufficient information. He had no reasons to think Speed was scum. Mafia is a very random game. Sometimes, you lose no matter how well you play. This time, there was next to no evidence on Speed. That was not a result of bad play on Lunatic's part. In this game, good tactics don't always work; they can help, but they can only help so much in the absence of good information. Failure to get good results is not always a result of poor play.
Again, I am not talking about his failure to catch Speed. Why do you keep bringing it up to the exclusion of what am talking about?
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There are two SKs, each with two targets. Basically RL has a 50/50 chance of ruining an SK's day.
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@SirAnonymous
Except that you didn't have scum. DP3 was a perfect example of why tunneling doesn't work. You focused entirely on one person, you were 100% certain, and you were wrong. Even when you think you're right, you still need to consider other possibilities in the event that you're wrong.
If and when that happens, sure. But there is no benefit to considering multiple possibilities at the same time. And you're only viewing it through the lens of it being wrong. Sure, when you do that it looks like a bad thing.
That's poor play on the part of the rest of town, not Lunatic's. You can't blame the shepherd for the sheep's decision to follow him.
Okay? I didn't bring them up, you did.
Actually, it's confirmation bias.
"Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them." https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Confirmation_BiasAlso, I think you misunderstood my statement. I didn't mean "Tunneling = Not Listening to Reason." I meant "Tunneling =/= Listening to Reason."
Then the definition has shifted as I know it. Or maybe I misunderstood the term. What I'm talking about is more in lines with this:
What evidence was there that Speed was scum? No, the results weren't "doing well," but that isn't a reflection on how Lunatic was playing.
Yes it is. The only worth of any tactic or strategy is if it actually works. And whatever tactic he was using failed. 4 times.
He lacked the necessary information to conclude that Speed was scum. You can't blame him for getting bad results when he had next to nothing to go on. The only person who found any evidence against Speed was ILikePie5 in DP1, and everyone had either forgotten or not paid attention in the first place.
I didn't say anything about this failure to catch Speed. I'm talking about him getting 4 townies lynched.
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One way I see this working is, once Town/Mafia has been eliminated, the other claims. It would be suicide for the SKs to CC, so they would have to continue to pretend to be survivors, making the remaining party essentially clear. Then it's basically a race to lynch/kill among the survivors till you find the SKs.
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@WaterPhoenix
Should be "must act" That is everyone has to submit a night action
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@SirAnonymous
I lead 1 potential mislynch. Lunatic led 1 potential mislynch and 5 actual mislynches. There is no comparison.Lunatic lasted 4 DPs longer. When you died, he only had a potential mislynch and one mislynch. Yes, there is a comparison.
Okay, if you want to compare while we were both alive, my record is better than his.
No it isn't. Tunneling is only as good or as bad as the initial read or logic. Tunneling itself is neutral.Tunneling isn't neutral. Players need to consider more than one possibility.
There is no benefit to considering more than one person at a time if you already have scum.
And? Being wishy washy doesn't get anyone lynched. Being certain does.Because it's impossible to be certain. If you'd had your way, Lunatic would have been mislynched. You were certain he was scum, even though he was town. Also, being wishy-washy is not the only alternative to certainty.
Yeah, Lunatic would have been mislynched and Town would have been better off for it.
Then what is so brilliant about that plan that did absolutely nothing to help town improve its odds?I concede that it wasn't brilliant, but it was still helpful. Had the known info been correct, it would have increased town's odds simply because no one else bothered to think about what Max being hated could mean.
How so?
The only people willing to listen to reason were Wylted and GP.Drafted, you were wrong. You were 100 percent certain, but you were wrong. So were they. After they listened to you, they closed their ears to any other possibility. Tunneling is not listening to reason.
Who's "they"? Most of town sheeped Lunatic all the way to a loss. And tunneling isn't ignoring reason, it's focusing on someone to get them lynched.
I'll admit my contribution and it would have probably been better to just ignore Lunatic's analysis for the drivel it was, but that doesn't make him MVP, nor does it make me (or anyone else) worse than him.So everyone else played worse, except for the people that didn't. Okay. Neither Press nor Pie pushed for 5 myslynches in a row. And I think you are completely ignoring DP1.You missed my post in which I changed my my MVP to PressF. Also, what am I ignoring about DP1? I still think Lunatic did well after DP3. At least he didn't give up trying like many of the others did. When the going got tough, the TUF got going.
You can't mislynch 4 times in a row and call it "doing well."
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I feel like a setup like this should be must lynch slash must kill
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@WaterPhoenix
What I meant is that survivors can't rely on town or mafia roadblocking successfully as a guarantee of survival
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