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I would be extraordinarily happy if this were a 3:3 Mafia game. Almost unheard of.
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@PressF4Respect
TBH, not a bad choice but I would have so loved you if you had results on Lunatic right now.
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UVC
Lunatic - 3/5 - drafterman, grey, oromagi
drafterman - 1/5 - Lunatic, AROSE
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Dead
Sir - Lonnie - Ninja - Mafia
Pie - Creed - 1x Vig - Town
Supa - Darryl - Roleblocker
Water - Kevin - Vanilla
Claimed
Press4 - Dwight - Cop
Grey - Jim - Vanilla
AROSE - Ryan - ????
Airmax - Toby - ????
Speed - Stanley - Compulsive Visitor
oromagi - Pam - Watcher
Lunatic - Andy - ????
drafterman - Phyllis - Vanilla
Unclaimed
Wylted
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@A-R-O-S-E
Be honest. Do you see scum doing something like this to get scum lynched when they could just stall for a NL or hop on the other wagon?
Do you agree with Lunatic's assessment that the case against Sir was weak?
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UVC
Wylted - 1/5 - oromagi
Lunatic - 2/5 - drafterman, grey
drafterman - 1/5 - Lunatic, AROSE
Lunatic's post screams desperation. Like, who does that unless they feel they need a wall of text to protect themselves. He is feeling extraordinarily guilty and vulnerable right now.
This wall of text is something you do as a last ditch effort and the only faction that needs a last ditch effort right now is Mafia.
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@A-R-O-S-E
Drafter sees that grey and I would like to lynch lunatic, so he hops on with us.
1. So you scum read Lunatic, but then back off that read because someone else agrees with you? How did you expect to get him lynched without getting people to agree with you?
2. I voted Lunatic before Grey. Are you suggesting I warped through time?
Mafia is warehouse and drafter is unclaimed.We lynch drafter.
I was holding out for a potential CC. You know, like you like to do.
Anyway, I'm Phyllis. Vanilla.
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@A-R-O-S-E
I want to lynch Lunatic instead of anyone else. Why does this change your vote on me?
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@Lunatic
RE: Google doc.
Allow me to retort.
Hey guys! First off sorry for my late postings on DP2. I was never really able to get caught. I skimmed a bit before then end of the last DP, but wasn’t really sure what had happened, just that supa had been lynched, and from what oromagi had said had also indicated drafter was his scum buddy. Admittedly, I have had a scum read on drafter since DP1 though. I’ll go into that in a bit.
It doesn't, and I would expect you to do your own analysis.
First off, I’ll quickly address the DP1 “derailment” thing. I initially was okay with the SA lynch, you can see from my posting style and behavior that initially I was leaning on letting him get lynched. What changed my mind was the fact that he was at L-1 with only a day left, and most of the wagon felt very rushed.
Wrong, which I pointed out. It took almost the entire day phase to built the wagon on Sir, compared to the wagon on AROSE which took 10 hours, yet that quickness didn't faze you in the slightest. This hand wringing over the speed of wagons is contrived.
Not to mention SA’s answer to the whole “claiming after one vote thing” seemed very sincere. He was a noob who didn’t know any better. The strongest reason to lynch them was probably Airmax saying his character claim might indicate a thematic difference, and even that didn’t seem all great of a reason to lynch someone. I don’t care if we were right about the lynch. I am happy for it, and happy that I was wrong.
Usually when people are wrong the re-evaluate the premises that led to those incorrect conclusions.
But I think a big part of the lynch was mafia manufactured for town cred. Drafterman, I think is one of my top scum read right now. I am feeling little hints of his affiliation by him reinforcing the idea that analyzing the DP1 lynch has value specifically on the AROSE wagon. Trying to derail the idea that “bussing is uncommon”.
It is. Look at the numbers yourself. It does not happen very often. And why would I off one of my own team mates when I you were offering up a Townie on a silver platter?
“I looked over the past few games. Bussing is fairly uncommon. In fact, the only person on Sir's wagon who has ever bussed was Water.”Despite the fact that we know know supa was on board that lynch of SA.
He wasn't:
Also if there is anyone in the game with the potential to bus, it is him and airmax. They are more veteran players who know the effectiveness of this. In fact the first thing drafterman did in Dark Crystal mafia was pressure his buddy “Mharman”.
And, after that, I took the first opportunity I saw to get a Townie lynched.
The other thing he said that had me suspicious is “If one of me and lunatic survive til the end, one of us is scum”. This statement only helps the mafia if he is town. It’s telling them to keep us alive to split a decision between us later. The only reason I could see him saying that is so he could set that situation up to make me look scummy by surviving, something he would as mafia have control over by choosing not to kill me.The biggest reason I suspect him is his confidence in the SA lynch. He himself stated pretty early on “I'm still on the fence about whether it's sufficient to lynch Sir.”.I don’t see what changed between then and the rest of the game.
Oh, I'm sorry, did you miss the wall of reasons I provided?
Later on after SA already claimed he wouldn’t be posting during the next day he added in the bit about him not voting, but he was pretty sold on the lynch before that. What had me more suspicious of him is the fact that he kept trying to imply that my derailing of the lynch was scummy, but never placed a hard scum read on me.
I said the difussion of pressure was scummy, and I wasn't even talking about you. Guilty conscience?
If he honestly thought I was derailing a lynch of a mafioso, that should have been more scummy to him. He kept re-stating it was.
At the time I didn't think you were Mafia, just stubborn.
If my behavior in trying to lynch AROSE instead of SA was so scummy, why wouldn’t he have voted for me instead?
Why would I do that?
The case on SA was garbage, despite him being mafia. I will continue to defend the fact that there was next to nothing on SA. I feel like he kept pushing it because he thought it would give him enough town cred, and make him look good in the following day phase. I was expecting drafter to come in hot in DP2 and use the fact that I was wrong on AROSE against me, which I think he probably would have if I was more active, and had supa not scum slipped. He’s definitely using that lynch as town cred “Why am I on the chopping block? I did the last minute Hail Mary analysis to get sir lynched” as I expected.
No, that isn't what you expected. You said you expected that I would come hot after you (again, guilty conscience much?) Which I didn't. So you're literally changing your expectations - MID PARAGRAPH - to fit things after the fact to drum up a lynch of me.
He’s non committal in reading me as scum, I think he knows I am his biggest threat on town. Even this day phase he has called me out a couple of times but doesn’t seem to want to go all the way with a scum read on me. He brought up the fact that I wanted to change from AROSE to supa as if that’s scummy but didn’t claim to read my as scum from that. His OMGUSy vibes are also a scum tell. He’s scum read both me and oro for suspecting him now, as if he feels his towncred from the bus of SA confirms him… Still trying to reinforce that notion.
When did I scum read oro?
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@Lunatic
I would be very amused to here the argument to that effect.
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@Lunatic
Your spreadsheet isn't viewable. It's also a bit funny you expect anyone to answer to you. You were heavily against Sir's lynch DP1. Which was proven false. Wylted, Airmax, and I all had independent reasons for FOSing him, whereas your wagon on AROSE consisted entirely of sheep which apparently didn't give you a single bit of concern.
airmax gave his reasoning here:
Furthermore as of last DP you said you still FOS AROSE:
Yet magically that FOS is gone.
There is no case against me, you are simply playing on oro's rather bizarre theory and hoping to get some traction with that.
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oro, Speed, and Press are almost certainly Town.
I lean heavily on Town for Wylted as well. There were some weak votes on Sir's wagon DP1 that was giving me pause. It was Wylteds additional contribution that helped solidified it for me.
To that end, airmax also provided some independent reasoning for lynching Sir, so I put a slight Town lean on him as well.
AROSE and Grey are null to slight town. They've been on the right wagons and have done some pro town moves.
That just leaves Lunatic.
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@oromagi
Val and Madgewere there any female warehouse employees?
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Dead
Sir - Lonnie - Ninja - Mafia
Pie - Creed - 1x Vig - Town
Supa - Darryl - Roleblocker
Water - Kevin - Vanilla
Claimed
Press4 - Dwight - Cop
Grey - Jim - Vanilla
AROSE - Ryan - ????
Airmax - Toby - ????
Speed - Stanley - Compulsive Visitor
oromagi - Pam - Watcher
Unclaimed
drafterman
Lunatic
Wylted
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@Christen
It isn't. Can we move on, then?We shouldn't have it if it's doing more harm than good.
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@Christen
I'm not sure I understand the point of this objection. Minimum wage doesn't literally help every single person in the country, ergo we shouldn't have it? Is that what you're saying?
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@Christen
There are still people today that are homeless and cannot find work. There are still people today that could use the work experience and the few dollars. What's a minimum wage increase supposed to do for these people? The people who need the most help?
The notion that these people are homeless and out of work simply because employers can't afford to pay them is unsubstantiated. People are homeless for a variety of reasons many of which having absolutely nothing to do with money (mental illness, stigma against former criminals, lack of adoption of kids) and those that involve things like unaffordable housing which increasing minimwage wage most certainly would help.
Employers are not likely going to want to hire these homeless people, especially for such a high wage.
You made this up.
Homelessness is a problem, especially for places like California and Seattle. How many more homeless people will it take for this to become "a significant problem"?
Homelessness is not caused by minimum wage. You made that up.
Ctrl-F
"Minimum Wage"
0/0
Try again.
I thought we talked about you making things up.
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@Christen
Even if the current minimum wage was not enough to survive on without government assistance, who does raising the minimum wage help though?
The people making it and that have to live off of it.
We have the employers, the people currently making minimum wage, the people making more than minimum wage, and people who have no job.Raising the minimum wage hurts employers who already pay their employees the current minimum wage since they are now forced to give up more of their money so that employees can make more money, or risk going out of business.
Yes, it sure is a shame employers have to pay people for labor. 🙄
It doesn't help those who already make more than the minimum wage.
Depends. If you make more than the current minimum wage, but less than the proposed minimum wage, you benefit. And while it doesn't directly help people making much more than the minimum wage, it at least acts as a level of insurance: if wage cuts come around, there is a maximum that they can be cut. It's like saying a safety net doesn't help the trapeze artist.
It doesn't help those who have no job to begin with, such as homeless people, and those looking for work experience; it would only make it harder for those people to get jobs since employers would have to pay them all this extra money to hire them, and decide it isn't worth it.
Over the near century of minimum wage laws, this does not seem to be an endemic problem. Why do you keep bringing it up?
This leaves us with the last group of people who the minimum wage affects: those already making the current minimum wage.If the minimum wage gets raised, it will help them if employers are both willing and able to pay them that extra money, but hurt them if the employer is either unwilling or unable to pay them that extra money.
Again, this does not seem to be a significant problem in light of the past 80 years. Why do you keep bringing it up?
If we try a few of my other solutions, like cutting down on careless government spending so we have more money to help those earning minimum wage, it would help more people overall than raising the minimum wage would.
I've already agreed that, if things change and there is no need for a higher minimum wage it shouldn't be increased. That is not the current state of affairs.
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@coal
Same, went back to school for graduate degree, so mega busy.
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@Christen
Then where do we draw the line? How much higher does the minimum wage need to be so that people have extra money for emergencies? In other words, if the minimum wage was 17 dollars an hour because that's how much you needed to survive, then how many more pennies/nickels/dimes/quarters/dollars do we add to that so people have extra money for emergencies? Would the minimum wage have to be 17 dollars an hour for living costs, plus an additional 10 cents an hour for savings/emergencies, or 17 dollars for living costs plus 25 cents an hour for savings/emergencies? Exactly how much additional money per hour do we add onto the current minimum wage for savings and emergencies?
Emergencies are part of living costs. Otherwise you have an emergency and you die. So it's not (Living Costs) + Emergencies. It's (Living Costs) which includes emergencies.
Remember that if you only tailor the minimum wage to the bare minimum, the second there is any sort of blip in life, they get sick, injured, or need to take a day off, they now have less than they need to live. "Cost of living" should cover those cases. Otherwise a minor incident can end your livlihood, put you out of a home, or ruin your life.
As far as where we "draw the line" we come to a consensus. That's how democracy works.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Alternatively, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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@Mharman
as those members will be so sick of each other that they will eventually ignore each other.
That has never happened in the entire history of the Internet.
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@coal
TBF it's a novel use of the term, I've only ever seen it on Twitter as "evergreen tweet" in the same context. Just applying that here.
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@coal
A "chill out" warning would for them have been more than adequate
I think that's a great idea.
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@coal
An evergreen question is a question that is always in season. It's always relevant. That is, you can ask that in response to anything he says.
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Lunatic is too smart to eat what Oro is cooking. That he would even entertain the notion makes me sus him
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@Lunatic
That makes literally 0 sense in light of my DP1 play.
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@warren42
If he's guilty, it's good to go. Otherwise I'm sure there is a mistake somewhere.
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@coal
--> @TheRealNihilistWhat are you talking about?
Evergreen question.
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@coal
Agreed, there is a great deal of variance from one to the other. The sub I modded had a very strict (but still appropriate) modding philosophy because it was a niche sub.
My personal experience is that bs1h was not open to much outside suggestion. My issues were primarily with him as an individual. I found him to be aloof and somewhat duplicitous. With him gone, I'm willing to give the new team some slack. I'm not getting the same impressions.
This is a diverse community and a lot of people have different ideas of how it should be run. Anyone with issues with the previous style of moderation will probably still have issues because no one is going to drastically change the style over night. I still have some pretty significant issues on certain topics, but - as they've decided to give users a clean slate to work from - I'm willing to do the same.
And we can't of course, ignore the fact that some people just like to rage against any mod action no matter what. I've certainly been accused of such. And maybe, in a few instances, they were right.
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@oromagi
so why would Supa pick you to lie about not knowing all the ways you might counter-claim?
Your solution (that this was a gambit to give me unnecessary town cred) doesn't answer this question since the gambit would be undermined by any such counter-claims. So your proposal (that I'm scum) doesn't solve this problem.
Why would he jump off the claim of hiding under you the instant he was discovered lying?
Because he cracks under pressure, as we have well seen? Look at his behavior in MCU. The second warren revealed him as a liar he imploded, tossing confusing, contradictory stories left and right. This is his scum MO.
What was that impulse about if not to protect you?
It is quite obviously to protect his own hide.
If this was, as you suggest, some risky gambit to protect me (setting aside that such a thing would be completely necessary, and therefore a big risk with no reward), then that gambit is completely undone if he then indirectly tosses me under the bus to save his own hide. If he wanted to risk his own hide to protect me, then he would have stuck with his original story and went down with the ship.
Not to mention that I wouldn't, in a million years, let him do a gambit like that if we were both scum.
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Kelly Erin HannonI am only just noticing that Supa claimed both Kelly and Erin.Nobody is CCing either one of these?
Kelly Erin Hannon is a single character. She ultimately ends up going by Erin because they decided, in show, that there can only be one Kelly.
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I've been on mobile most of the day so forgive me if I missed or confused some posts.
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Lol, but... I don't need a boost to my town cred. Are you suggesting that I did all that work yesterday to bus Sir?
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Sorry, one of those was Supa saying I should be on the chopping block.
Still, no reason to call for my lunch by anyone
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@oromagi
I haven't put forth a theory. I'm questioning why you keep calling for me to be lynched with no stated reason.
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I was fully willing to accept this as a mistake except that Supa gave a reason for why he visited me. There wouldn't have been a reason inside his brain to give if he hadn't consciously submitted my name as a visit target.
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Dead
Sir - Lonnie - Ninja - Mafia
Pie - Creed - 1x Vig - Town
Claimed
Press4 - Dwight - Cop
Grey - Jim - Vanilla
AROSE - Ryan - ????
Airmax - Toby - ????
Supa - Kelly/Erin - Weak Hider
Speed - Stanley - Compulsive Visitor
oromagi - Pam - watcher
Unclaimed
drafterman
Lunatic
Wylted
Water
UVC
Supa - 6/6 - Speed, oromagi, wylted, grey, AROSE, drafterman
Lunatic - 1/6 - water
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Here is the nail in Supa's coffin:
I wanted to visit someone who wasn't claimed and not visit PressF was my logic
This was his logic for visiting me.
But he says he didn't. He says he visited GP, but misread the PM was thinking about me when he claimed and typed my name as a mistake.
So he then invented a fictitious reason for visiting someone he never visited?
On the one hand, I would have been willing to accept that a hider wouldn't appear on watcher reports. And this seems like such a silly thing to lie about, but if this was an honest mistake, I don't see how Supa would have provided his logic for visiting someone he didn't visit.
VTL Supa
HOWEVER.
I don't like oro at the moment. He has twice sublty called for my lynch with no reason.
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@coal
Someone like, for example, Wylted or Drafterman who are widely known and respected in the community (much less OreEle or Airmax) would obviously have thoughts of their own, thoughts which bsh1 would have been disinclined to have to contend with. But, with someone in your situation, you're going to defer to him. That is not good.
Frankly, I don't have an issue with the locking and agree with it. The style of moderation I am most familiar is reddit-style, and locking threads getting out of hand and off topic is a matter of course.
The Free Speech issues are, of course, nonsensical: no one's free speech has been hampered (not that you have free speech on a private web site anyway). Free Speech doesn't mean speech free from consequences, nor does it mean freedom to speak in specific places of one's choosing. If a thread is getting close to getting out of hand, with multiple violations of the CoC looming on the horizon, then locking the thread and splashing a bit of cold water on things is certainly preferable than just idly waiting until people actually do commit violations of the CoC and earn bannings.
I think it's frankly very weird that people are suggesting that there should have been actual bannings instead of locking a thread, as if banning is somehow less of a reaction. Bannings are actual punishments against specific people. Locking a thread isn't even a punishment against anyone.
And yeah, people can pick up and carry on the conversation elsewhere, but who cares? If it's on a different site, go for it. Nothing that happens outside this site (and discord) should matter here, so that's not a factor. If someone wants to create a new thread (in the appropriate forum; I heavily endorse the use of locking and moving threads to keep various fora on topic) and continue a conversation, they can.
And yet, that hasn't happened. Which I think is telling. If a specific conversation was so important, then certainly people would have continued it elsewhere, but they haven't. I think this indicates that it was simply people's tempers getting out of hand and once the momentum of the conversation was interrupted and all the hot air let out, there was nothing of substance to keep it afloat.
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