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I have some issues with the Supa lynch but I can’t get into right now.
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Why am I on the chopping block? I did the last minute Hail Mary analysis to get sir lynched
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In my previous game vote analysis I was impressed with the degree Supa, as town, voted scum.
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Yeah, I still don’t have justification, either. I don’t think it’s a point of relevance. We see to flipped PMs with justification, one for each faction. I’m town and I don’t have it. It’s not a clue here.
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@Lunatic
Well, I did caution you to look at the company with you on that lynch. I agree that the scummiest person on that wagon was Supa.
**VTL Supa**
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@oromagi
How am I possibly only in the middle of your read list?
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@Lunatic
If your stance is the same, then it seems to me that you would try to pick up where you left off, yet you come out with an FOS on Supa.
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@Vader
@Speedrace
I looked over the past few games. Bussing is fairly uncommon. In fact, the only person on Sir's wagon who has ever bussed was Water.
I think we should focus on AROSE' wagon.
@Supa/@Speed
if you haven't done so, since you're here, might as well save us the trouble and claim.
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Ongoing
Warren-The Office Mafia
Sign-ups
Mharman - Survive the Killers Mafia
In the Hopper
Discipulus_Didicit - OSBM (This one will really blow your minds)
Virtuoso (TBD)
PressF4Respect (Just a Regular Game of Mafia, themeless)
A-R-O-S-E ~ Player's Choice of Role Madness (Powders Pow-wow -- Batman Bizarreness - GotG Gagglefrick)
SupaDudz (Big Mouth, South Park, Teen Titans, BoJack Horseman)
drafterman (Semi-Open)
Speedrace (You'll Go Crazy MCU)
TUF- Recycled Roles mafia
ILikePie5 - Pick 1: Narcos, Riverdale, Bakugan Battle Brawlers
On Hold
Buddamoose
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If both Lunatic and I survive until the last DP, one of us is Scum.
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By the way, is anyone in this town a pilot? I just discovered that I need to make an emergency business trip to Botswana, so I'll see you all later.
I've figured it out. In Season Four, in an awkward moment when Toby is caught in an embarassing position, he suddenly leaves and moves to Costa Rica. ("i need to make an emergency trip")
Why change Costa Rica to Botswana? Well, that's because Charles Miner was played by Idris Elba whose work includes "The No. 1 Ladies' Detective Agency" which was filed in Botswana.
It's all coming together!
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@Lunatic
What more do you want from him lol
How about an actual vote?
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@Lunatic
Objectively false.Most of the wagon on SA formed because "well its the only thing we got right now even if its weak" which is a way worse alternative I think.
The wagon on SA consists of the following:
Sir
Wylted ("might as well") - https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2985/post_links/126012
(later Wylted revised his analysis to behaviorial) - https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2985/post_links/126534
Water (can afford a mislynch) - https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2985/post_links/125270
Pie (unstated) - https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2985/post_links/126029
airmax (role claimed too fast) - https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2985/post_links/126350
drafter,am (behavior/theme analysis) - https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2985/post_links/126545
AROSE - (had to choose between himself and SA) - https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2985/post_links/126568
oromagi - (weak claim) - https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2985/post_links/126570
Only two people (Wylted/Water) took a "might as well" approach and Wylted later changed it with some surprisingly solid analysis.
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@Lunatic
Right, but the entirety of the wagon on AROSE is people sheeping you. Doesn't that give you pause, or are you chalking this up to your own force of character?
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@Athias
For someone that likes to repeat "Reading Comprehension is key" to then summarize my stance on hypothetical situations as "amounting to nothing" is, frankly, astonishing.
Have a nice day.
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@DebateArt.com
How hard would it be to implement tables in the forums?
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@Greyparrot
How so?
There are three scum.
If two are both the focus of a lynch, and your lack of voting would be conspicuous, and you have the opportunity to go on a wagon more likely to force an NL, would you not do it? Would you not avoid bussing when you can?
It's basically a win-win because either wagon you vote on is a wagon for scum so you are, in a sense, bussing no matter which way you go, just one is less successful than the other.
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@Athias
Do you see how my language reflected yours? My response was direct. And every statement I made afterwards, supplemented my point.
The directness of your language isn't a point of contention.
Neither martyrdom nor sarcasm helps your argument. It's a legitimate query. Using myself as an example, I make well above the minimum, and I don't spend $50 a month on clothing. Not to mention I live in area with a high cost of living. Assuming that the cost of clothing is recurring like utilities or even food has little to no substantiation. Now clothing may not be defined as a durable good, but it's certainly not a perishable good.
Well, I guess if it doesn't apply to you it doesn't apply to anyone, then.
No, your argument is that there's a need for a higher minimum wage because the current minimum wage isn't commensurate to the cost of living. I rebut this by not only arguing that your position lacks insight of other factors like welfare/entitlement programs which are available to minimum wage workers, but also even when calculating the salary of minimum wage workers, they make more than the cost of living you provided.
Again, when you are arguing that the minimum wage is sufficient when you add supplementary assistance then you are, in fact, arguing that the minimum wage is insufficient. Otherwise they wouldn't need those other factors. And the cost of living I provided did not include all the factors of a cost of living, such as emergency funds.
A minimum wage that exactly equals the cost of living is necessarily insufficient because of the non-zero chance of emergency or extreme situations. If you have to miss work for any reason, you are automatically less than the cost of living. If you have no emergency funds then there are innumerable emergency situations that can completely derail your life.
An average 43.5 hours a week is inhumane? That's 8 hours and 42 minutes a day.
The context in which I am arguing is the well-established 40-hour work week, living on minimum wage alone. When you argue that minimum wage is fine, once you add assistance programs and overtime, you are conceding my point.
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@Greyparrot
It took, almost literally, the entire 72-hour DP to lynch SA. It took 5 hours to get AROSE to L-2.
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This is the largest game thread since my DnD thread and the largest Mafia thread period.
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That at least one of AROSE or SA is scum is a fair judgment. If they were both town, it'd be easy enough for scum to justify switching from one wage to the other.
However, it's possible that they're both scum and scum is helping split the wagons to force a NL.
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I'm legit on the edge of my seat before. Not sure this scenario has happened in a long time.
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@oromagi
@A-R-O-S-E
@SirAnonymous
Only Arose and Sir aren't voting. Presumably they'd each vote for the other.
That makes oro the kingmaker here.
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@Wylted
I like this analysis and read. He's certainly entitled to pick apart people's cases against him (or anyone's reads) for that matter, but that he doesn't actually use any of it to do anything in the game (vote or FOS or push for a lynch) is odd.
This solidifies it for me.
VTL SirAnon
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@Athias
No. You provided your side, and I responded, no it isn't because reducing the cost of living would be the solution, rendering your argument about the necessity of higher minimum wage, which I also submitted prices out low-skilled workers, rebutted.
No, you said "No it isn't" to the statement "Minimum wage is insufficient." If the minimum wage is sufficient, then I can only ask to what problem you are offering a solution to.
I characterized your numbers as superficial because you presume two things: recurring transportation costs, and recurring clothing costs.
You're right, I presumed that people would need to be able to get places and wear clothes. How outrageous of me. I also presumed they would need a place to live and food to eat. I did not consider that they would be naked hobos walking everywhere and eating out of trash cans.
Furthermore, you also presumed recurring 3 figure health insurance cost, especially when there are government programs which offer it for much less.
Okay so you're saying that minimum wage + government assistance is required, which concedes that minimum wage isn't sufficient.
Now let's consider adding the average overtime,
Let's not. The solution to a substandard wage shouldn't be "well just work more." We got rid of overbearing work weeks for a reason. They're inhumane.
Your reading comprehension needs a bit more work--that or your approach. If that's all you read into my statement is "No it isn't," then all I can presume is that's all you were capable of reading, or all you were willing to read.
If that's all you can presume, then your imagination needs a bit more work.
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@Greyparrot
I'm not sure what you are asking here. Why would I be concerned that Lunatic is playing protown? It doesn't make him right.
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@SirAnonymous
We have <11 hours. That is the blink of a gnat's eye in DART-time. What are your reads, where do you put your vote?
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@Speedrace
Only if SA is Town. SA has had high participation. Has engaged with users. And has had a chance to formulate reads and respond to others. Yet not a single vote. Doesn't that stick out to you?
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@Athias
So then we argue over the truth of A.
I agree! I have provided my side. Your response (to the truth of A) is: no it isn't.
We may have to establish or reference some axioms, but I wouldn't presume that you're arguing the minimum wage's necessity is self-evident, right?
Not at all.
Actually, no you haven't. Your premises themselves are yet-to-be substantiated arguments. (e.g. cost of living where you used superficial numbers from Columbus Ohio.)
I disagree with that characterization of my argument. I provided actual, real numbers that demonstrate how, even in the best of circumstances, minimum wage fails to provide for such a life. You certainly can dismiss them as superficial, nothing I can do about that.
Far be it from me to compel you to engage. A simple, "I don't want/intend to argue" would suffice.
I generally respond to the level of effort I am given. In this case: "No it isn't."
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@Vader
To me this implies you are not as active in this game as you are in other games. Is that not correct?I understand it is a lot to sift through, but he does not even care to make an attempt. I am a lazy fuck too, but I would personally only respond to pin themselves.
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@Vader
So you acknowledge the impact of a long, drawn out DP with lots of posts to sift through. You admit that it has impacted your own behavior. AROSE is similarly impacted but moreso.
I think this is important to note (especially for Lunatic).
You may draw a thin line between you and AROSE in terms of activity in response to a DP like this, but I see it as just two slightly different points on the same spectrum.
Generally speaking, we can't say inactivity in light of a dense DP like this is scum without both FOSing you and AROSE at the same time. So more care has to be given here and the gymnastics that has to be performed to cut a line between AROSE and others is a bit too convoluted for my taste.
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@Athias
"What follows" is analogical reasoning, as well as an inductive counterargument using the minimum wage's strongest argument (cost of living.)
It doesn't really matter what you call it. It's basically "If A then B."
I can argue till I'm blue in the face that that logical connection (A > B) is true. At the end of the day you can just go "Well sure, but A isn't true anyway so it doesn't matter."
You can attempt to substantiate your premise rather than presuppose that we must agree on/accept it first.
It's necessary for any debate or conversation to start with some shared premise. Regardless, I have substantiated that premise throughout this thread. If you have specific points you'd like to address, you are welcome to do so.
You argued my following statement, which you allege came after a mere negation, was contingent on the minimum wage's being insufficient. And, I conceded that part of it was. The "part" is in reference to my following statements, not the minimum wage itself.
Ok, fair enough. But it doesn't change anything. If part of your argument is contingent on the minimum wage being insufficient then it all is, unless we're talking about two independent arguments. I don't see more than one argument, so it is all, however indirectly, tied to that premise. If that premise wasn't necessary then you wouldn't have included it. If it was necessary, then my statement holds. The second you reject the premise, the rest of the argument falls like dominoes. I'm not interested in pursuing a line of conversation that is poisoned from the get-go.
Not "hypothetical." It's analogical. And once again, your position operates on expecting agreement rather than establishing agreement.
It's hypothetical because it is based on a premise you don't accept (that minimum wage is insufficient).
I wasn't asking permission. It was a courtesy extended to help explain any parts you may have not understood or parts which I may not have communicated well enough. But if no elaboration is necessary, then there is no reason to offer one.
Then I guess we're done here. As stated I perfectly understand what you are saying. As it stands, I am unmoved. If you have nothing further to elaborate on or add to the conversation, I suppose that's it, then.
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@Lunatic
Are you not concerned that your wagon only consists of people sheeping you?
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