Total posts: 5,653
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Ongoing
Lunatic - The Dark Crystal Mafia
Sign-ups
In the Hopper
Mharman - Survive the Killers Mafia
Warren
Bsh1
PressF4Respect (Just a Regular Game of Mafia, themeless)
A-R-O-S-E ~ Player's Choice of Role Madness (Powders Pow-wow -- Batman Bizarreness)
SupaDudz (High School Life Mafia)
drafterman (6-2-2 Semi-Open; Themeless; Night-Start)
Speedrace (You'll Go Crazy MCU)
TUF- Recycled Roles mafia
On Hold
Buddamoose, Virtuoso, Breaking, Discipulus
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Then we have two choices. I think we wait and see what the rest of the town thinks. I don't have any more of a case to make against Supa, except that last game (as Mafia) he also proposed a mind boggling incomprehensible plan as a last-ditch effort to appear like Town.
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Converted it to Spreadsheet form.
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@ILikePie5
I have exactly one data point for him, so I can't really base any trend, nor do I know your alignment to place stock in your assessment.
I'm not sure I want to pressure anyone for more claims this DP. We already have four, all of which are pretty weak claims which has narrowed down the pool of potentially good roles for Mafia to pick from.
I'd rather settle on a lynch target. Right now, Supa as at the top of my list. His character claim and description screams fake claim to me. A mafia-sided messenger isn't unheard.
I don't mind lynching inactives on principle, but certainly not when there is even a remotely better target.
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If Supa's plan makes sense to anyone else, please explain it to me.
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@Speedrace
I simply don't think there is an alignment changing mechanic in this game. I feel it is too small to support such a mechanic and I'm not aware of how it would fit thematically. Is there a third party aside from the Gelflings and Skeksis?
And no, Supa's role can't confirm anyone. While alive he is just a messenger. There is nothing that prevents him from being Mafia messaging Town or Town Messaging Mafia. It would only make sense for a post-death communication role to belong to a Townie, but we'd have to kill him to confirm that part of his role, which would be redundant because he'd be confirmed by the act of killing him?
I see nothing about his role, or how he proposes to use it, that would allow him to confirm anyone else.
He says he has already chosen, but he has no confirmation of the alignment of the person he has chosen. Once he dies, if this person is Mafia, they can just lie about anything Supa tells them, not that he can tell them anything other than his own beliefs about the game, which really doesn't help us.
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@A-R-O-S-E
I'll post more once I get back to work. FWIW (and I said this a thousand times last game) people confirming their role means precisely dick. It doesn't confirm his character or affiliation.
As far as AROSE, #126 is a hot mess. The formatting is all over the place. You want people to base a wagon off of a post, make it something they can read.
As far as me reading, I know about the multiple sources, *I* referenced them way before you did. It's part of the reason I voted Supa. And to be clear, I'm not voting him based on some pedantic reason, I'm voting him because I believe he is fake claiming his character.
If you feel there are questions I haven't answered, as you claim, please reference the post and I'll answer them.
As far as my aggression, you apparently slept through DP2 and DP3 last game.
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All I'm saying is that his claim reads like a fake claim as a result of skimming a Wikipedia entry.
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@A-R-O-S-E
Right but we aren't talking about just those specific novels.
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@A-R-O-S-E
The context is this game which covers all of that material.
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Am I going crazy here? Is it accurate to say that Naia is the main character of "the" story?
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I'll be up front. Last time I watched the Dark Crystal move was probably 30 years ago. And I just started watching the Netflix series. So maybe I'm out of the loop. If someone else corroborates Naia being "the main character of the story", I'll back off.
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@Vader
You are a fucking idiot. Yes there is. The main protagonist is the main character.
There is not "main character of the story" because there isn't a single story we're talking about here. For example, Naia doesn't appear in the 1980's movie. I would even say it's debatable that she's the "main" character of the Netflix Series. From what I can tell, she's the main character of some of the novels.
Well if it is a fact that they are the main protagonist, then there is no copying from the Wiki. And even so, why not fucking look at wiki you bonehead. It gives a better understanding at the game. You are a strong scum for not referencing the wiki
I didn't say there was anything wrong with looking at the wiki. I'm looking at it myself. In fact, I was deliberately referencing the wiki when I cast my vote for you. About Naia, the wiki says:
"She was the main protagonist and heroine of J.M. Lee’s young adult tie-in novels..."
Which is why I get a strong scum read from you. Your claim reads like you just read the first paragraph of her entry and then paraphrased it. I highly doubt that TUF said she was the main character in your role PM.
Why would I claim main character/protagonist as scum? Why would I do that?
Lot's of reasons. It could actually be a fake claim. I remember a Harry Potter Mafia where Harry Potter was a fake claim given to Mafia. You could be trying to out someone else that has that character (a la Cog in last game).
Also, she is only the main character of some spin-off material. Actual main characters would be Gelfling like Jen or Kira.
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1). Firstly, it doesn't explain why you would role claim, but not character claim. Secondly, if you're vanilla, all you've done is narrow down the pool of priority night kill targets.I think it makes sense, you don't, I guess that's a matter of opinion?
Not really.
2). A character is a named individual. A group of characters would be more than one of those things. I'm not that.I still don't get the difference. There's a bunch of clans but that's multiple characters. Are you an entire clan?
Not everyone in every clan consists of named characters. But no, I am not a clan. Yeah, I think there are some named characters that are members of my group, but it's not common.
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@A-R-O-S-E
1). You still haven't explained why you role claimed without any pressure.So people don;t have to ask, I already said it
Firstly, it doesn't explain why you would role claim, but not character claim.
Secondly, if you're vanilla, all you've done is narrow down the pool of priority night kill targets.
2). I didn't say I'm a "group of characters." I said "I'm a group."What's the difference?
A character is a named individual. A group of characters would be more than one of those things. I'm not that.
How are you a group? Everyone else is one dude.
How would you know that?
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@Vader
TUF has themed this game off of the entire Dark Crystal's universe, to cover the movie, TV, show and books. There is no "main character of the story." This reads like you ripped it off of the wiki.I will character claim. I am Naia, the main character of the story
VTL Supa
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@A-R-O-S-E
1), that's hypocritical
What's hypocritical?
2). I don't see a wall of encrypted character. I said I did it like Oro.
You still haven't explained why you role claimed without any pressure.
"Group of characters" How many? 3, 4? When is group of characters a thing?
I didn't say I'm a "group of characters." I said "I'm a group."
VTL Drafterman
Cool. You voted me. Now what?
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@A-R-O-S-E
"with no pressure" So come out and say I got no role
Yeah, and why do that?
Give us one of them.
No, I don't think I will.
(and if you noticed I did char chaim but subtly so I can landmine someone like Oro last game)
What you did last game was cheap and contrary to the spirit of the game. It shouldn't be allowed (and I'll explicitly forbid it in my games). I don't even know what you're talking to "landmine" someone. All I remember is that it caused a great deal of confusion until you just came out and claimed.
As of now, you have no claimed your character. A claim is an explicit and unambiguous statement about what you are. Hints, clues, suggestions, implications could generously be called "soft claiming" but that's not what I'm talking about here. When I say "claim", I mean a hard claim.
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My issues is the characters. The miller claim is spot on. But Deet as a Vanilla? She has multiple powers and only grows in power after absorbing the sanctuary tree.
AROSE didn't even bother to character claim, which is basically the opposite of what you should do if you're a vanilla.
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@warren42
Actually, and that's not a CC because multiple Vanillas is not uncommon. But it also means it's a big blind spot Mafia can try an hide in. Is Press Mafia and his partners told him to claim Vanilla? Is Press town and AROSE, seeing that there are Vanilla's in the game, jump on the chance to be lumped in?
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@ILikePie5
@warren42
@Pie:
Did you ever play with Oromagi aka levi_smiles on DDO?
I did not, no.
Yall think there’s 2 mafia or 3?
I agree with warren. 2 mafia with a potential 3rd party.
Thoughts on Post 11? Does it seem like fishing to you after he voted for Supa?
No, he allegedly always votes Supa first thing. At least he said so last game when he was Town, so I'll buy it. He deliberately adheres to sub-optimal strategies, acknowledging that. Which I just chalk up to noob behavior. It's much easier to just always be scummy than to always be towny.
The pressure on Press is valid, since he was inactive last game. I would have added to the pressure if I had arrived in time.
@Warren:
So based on his claim alone would you put Pie as the same as the vanilla claims, townier, or scummier?
Townier, actually. Vanilla is a much safer claim for Mafia since it can't be CC'd. It would be expected for a mafia forced to claim early would resort to a Vanilla claim for that reason (to avoid being CC'd). I don't like that multiple vanillas have claimed, since it narrows the PR pool, hence my question to AROSE.
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@warren42
The miller claim is inscrutable. They can't be reliably investigated so we have no mechanical way of testing the claim. We can only rely on behavior. Historically, the miller role has been criticized for having the opposite its intended effect; it's intended to make someone appear guilty when they're innocent, but in use it actually confirms players. This was a result of mods using the role more and more making Mafia less likely to claim it lest they be CC'd.
It's less common now, making it more viable as a fake claim, but old habits die hard. You have to commit to it early, which also discourages Mafia from claiming it. But meta changes and sometimes fake claims are given. I don't know enough about the meta here, or Pie in particular to really judge.
If we're down to LYLO and he's still alive, it'll be more of an issue. If he shows up on some watcher report, or someone risks an investigation on them (tracker, role cop, etc.) then the discussion changes. Right not there really isn't anything we can do about it unless you suggest a lynch him on principle.
As far as Supa. I don't like the claim at all. To be honest, I don't like these cagey habits he appears to have picked up. Unless he's prepared to provide something solid to work with, I don't think people should place stock in him. If he isn't prepared to provide something solid to work with, he shouldn't have claimed at all. It does seem like a deliberate fishing attempt, but he's a noob so that doesn't necessarily make him scum.
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@warren42
That’s true, it’s swingy. Still not sure that it wouldn’t be included though, swingy can still be balanced.
Swingy can be balanced yes, for a minute. That's why it's a completely separate issue from balanced. Things that are swingy can very quickly and unpredictably become unbalanced, which is why they are a negative that mods try to avoid.
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I will say though that I am not a single character. I'm a group.
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@A-R-O-S-E
Why did you claim Vanilla with no pressure?
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Claimed
Press4 - Deet - Vanilla
ILikePie5 - Rian - Miller
A-R-O-S-E - ???? - Vanilla
Unclaimed
Oromagi
WaterPheonix
PressF4Respect
SpeedRace
Supadudz
Warren42
Mharman
Drafterman
UVC
Supa - 1/6 - oro
Mharman - 2/6 - drafter, Pie
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@Vader
So that I can have the opportunity use my power and try to get people to town confirm themselves
How does your partial claim give you the opportunity to use your power over simply keeping quiet about it?
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An alignment change role in a 10p game would be extremely swinging. TUF is too experienced a mod to allow that.
I don't like how Mharman responded to the ping but didn't claim. I'll keep my vote where it is.
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BTW, busy today but I'll be able to catch up tomorrow.
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Mharman is the other inactive from last game.
VTL Mharman
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@Lunatic
Not sure we have the player base for that. We just finished a 12p game that had to have 3 people replaced, one of which was PressF who is a player in your game now.
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@Vader
Ahhh there is where you're wrong.
lol okay.
For the most part of DP1 and slight DP2, I was town read because my behavior was not scummy at all and mimmicked my town philosophy, which is a mix of Wylted's and my own philosophy.
Dude, I literally posted everyone's reads of you DP1 and DP2. Only a single person legitimately town read you, for like five seconds. I posted links. You can refute them or provide your own links. I'm doing the leg work to actually show you evidence and you're like "no u." Otherwise you can drop this notion that you were significantly town read, especially beyond DP1.
My scum gambit plays vs my town gambit plays are drastically different.
Sorry, I was going off of you saying that your town play and scum play are the same. Now you're saying they're different. Either way, it's irrelevant. Your play, this game, was objectively scummy.
Fair enough. My role could have flipped as town, but I did not know this. i have NEVER seen these roles before. i started forum mafia in 2017. and took a break from 2018-2019, so I am in all sense a noob
Yeah. I know. That's why I'm trying to help you. I started forum mafia in 2012. I've taken a break here and there, but I have a bit of experience. And your "role" would't flip town. That makes no sense. Town/mafia is your affiliation. Your role was ascetic (that you claimed PGO). But you don't have to be experience to know this. The mod literally said in the first post of the game that there was no thematic split among the players. So neither character nor role was an indication of affiliation.
I don't think PGO is scummy at all
Any claim that can't be verified without someone risking their life is a scummy claim. I shouldn't have to explain why.
Distracting town to force a mislynch to take pressure off Ragnar and on me was key for him to be stealth and win
He didn't have any pressure on him. Even in the last DP it was a numbers game.
I know, but that is what scum should do in that situation, agreed?
I already gave you credit for squeezing out a mislynch when your days were numbered. Was that the optimal play? I can't say. It might have been better to claim that warren was redirected or something, or perhaps that warren was roleblocked. Knowing that CCing warren and making it you v. him ultimately gets you killed, a strategy that keeps you alive and misdirects town is objectively better.
I know I messed up with claim, but exactly what I did in distractions worked...
You keep saying it "worked" without explaining what the goal here. Was the goal just to get warren lynched? Congratulations, you got warren lynched, thereby signing your own death certificate. You engaged in a 1-for-1 trade which mathematically hurts your team and should be avoided. If that was your goal, then yes, it "worked."
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@Greyparrot
I have to say that after warren's flip I did FOS a bit. Then again, I always reserve a little FOS just for you, because you can be hard to read some times.
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@warren42
He shouldn't have, but with mistakes he'd made already it wouldn't have surprised me.
But at that point you're just selectively choosing which mistake you think the mod made. Either he let me come back in as scum because I already knew the scum team, confirming me as scum (mistake) or he let me come back in as town knowing the scum team (mistake).
Once you're at a point where you think the mod is lying to you to cover up mistakes, then you can choose any possible mistake and argue that's the case.
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@warren42
Well, no. If he had told me the scum team, he wouldn't have let me back in period.Right. After you explained it I'm not surprised, it makes sense, but my point was if you had told him you'd still be telling us he wasn't confirmed, right?
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@Greyparrot
What's funny is I was on mobile and accidentally deleted that message from Speed, so I don't know what he sent me. He could have actually sent me the scum names but I would have never saw it.
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@Vader
No offense as well but, you can't say pre DP2 letter shenanigan behavior was inherently scummy on my part because(pardon my French) you have no fucking clue what my town play is. My DP1 and pre DP2 letter was not scummy. You only read scum cause I did not announce my role. In a normal maf game, that's my play
If that's your normal play, then your normal play is scummy. I don't need to know your town play to recognize your play as scummy. If that's the case then you need to work on your game. I'm trying to give you advice here but you want to keep pushing that you're playing some advanced galaxy-brain maneuvers here.
I didn't put you on my scum list till DP3:
I provided my reason here:
Note anything missing? Yeah, not a single peep about this letter nonsense or anything about announcing your role. And this isn't the first time you've accused me of saying stuff I didn't:
In addition to the previous reasons for FOSing you, the primary reason became, and remained, the fact that warren counter claimed you. The only time I talked about the letter thing was in response to you bringing it up.
Take the L, jot down some lesson's learned, and improve your game. You can't spin this as some infallible play on your part, blaming your teammates and game design.
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@Barney
A couple comments...This was my first full game (the one time I played before, I was lynched DP1 for being a noob and not useful to town). I was genuinely learning the game, without much understanding of what is and isn't a power role.
You did well. You participated and I don't really think you gained any real suspicion except for the last phase when it was basically POE.
My social tactic was to play things straight, and believe that will be my SOP. I kept seeing town getting needlessly poisoned by lies. I think I had only three lies throughout the game? First that I was a roll which could visit people at night (needed due to being spotted), second when there was the mass lie detector test (to which I accurately predicted there there was a different gadget anyway), and third at the end when I figured Water would spot me so I baited him into acting incredibly scummy (which I pulled off while enough that the executioner needed a night to sleep on the decision... had that one gambit by me worked, Mafia would have won with a double night kill when people thought they had an auto win due to a pair of invincibles).
Your claim was the best claim you could have really for that role. But it would ultimately come to bite you back since you claimed a verifiable role that would never be verified since you couldn't kill separately from the mafia NK. But Vig isn't a role people necessarily want to be verified. I think the NP1 NK vs. AROSE worked in your favor.
Lying as little as possible is the best strategy, IMO. I know a lot of people like to do wild and crazy gambits, but in the end I feel these just generate confusion more than anything else. In a game where the only thing that necessarily separates Town and Mafia is the fact that Mafia have to lie, then the less you lie the less likely you are to get caught in a lie.
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@Vader
What would have been the causus belli of a lynch in DP2 besides the letter scenario... nothing. There was no way to prove that
"Causus belli"? "Proof"? Dude. This is mafia. That stuff rarely matters. This ideal where there are reports and cogent arguments is actually a rarity. It is mostly gut feelings. If you want to understand why people were gunning for you DP2, go back to the post where I helpfully highlighted all of the FOS on you and dig in yourself.
I literally said to attack drafter in the NP3 because of perfect kill but I was over rided. I said to kill Water but I was over rided. At that point, I cared about making a distraction at that point in time.
Okay, this reads like you were upset you weren't being listened to, so you YOLO'd out of the game. That's fine. That's a reason. It's not a good reason. It's not good play, but it's understandable. And that's fine. But don't act like it was some master move in 10D hyper-chess.
I realized now that looking back, i should have claimed a cop role. I am still pissed.
Ah, and this is key, which I'll get to below*
That is my town play. My scum play is not different than my town play. You have not played in enough mafia games with me as town to know my play
I really don't get into that kind of meta game. The ideal is for people to always appear to be pro-town, a consequence of which is that their scum play is indistinguishable from their town play (the alternative is that their scum and town play are indistinguishable, but it's all anti-town, which is just stupid).
My point with that question was that, if your scum and town play aren't different, then telling us what your Town play is is pointless, because then it's also your Scum play. It would only be relevant if you played differently as Town and Scum, which would still be irrelevant because the whole point of improving in this game is to improve your play so you eliminate such tells.
* - Coda
Yes, your claim is really the root-cause analysis here. Firstly, there was no need to fake claim anything. The only person that really needed to fake claim was Ragnar and he had the best claim you could have in that situation. Neither you nor Cog had to fake claim anything (other than your affiliation, of course).
Why you chose to do so will boggle the minds of scholars for centuries.
Then, having decided you needed to fake claim, you choose PGO, an inherently scummy fake claim. In my day, PGO was always regarded as a scum claim because it was seen as an attempt to divert night actions away from a player. "No, don't investigate me, you'll DIE!!" It was so scummy that it was almost to the point of being policy lynch material. Get rid of the non-confirmable player early so we don't have to worry about them.
PGO is a bluff. It's a bluff because you get called out the second anyone suspects you enough to risk it.
You bluffed with a shaky, unnecessary claim and got called out on it. And your response was to generate negative attention on yourself with *jazz hands* "DISTRACTION"
The second you got called out on not being a PGO, you were dead. All your "DISTRACTION" did was delay it by a day. And if you want some credit, yes, you got a mislynch out of the deal. You earned a Town death you wouldn't have otherwise have gotten if you just rolled over and died. It didn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but you did get that for your team.
Likewise, if you build a house out of shit bricks and hang air freshener around, it's going to stink less than if you didn't hang the air freshener. But you're still living in a house of shit bricks and it would have be better not to.
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@Greyparrot
I want to know what was in the message, lol.
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@Vader
Your team lost because of poor NK choices and your poor DP play. Water wasn't a tracker, he was a watcher and he watched Grey. And yeah, that's partially luck as mafia should have used the strong kill on me, who probably wouldn't have been watched because I was outed BP. But I think that would only delay things, really.
I'm not sure what the purpose of your Mafia resume is supposed to mean. If you're suggesting that you're still learning and are inexperienced, then I agree and people are trying to tell you where you made mistakes so you can improve your play. The appropriate response would be to acknowledge that and heed the lessons. Instead you're like you were significantly town read (false) and that this "distraction" was some sort of good play.
It wasn't.
The distracting stuff wasn't a good play. It didn't "work."
By "work" I mean bring your team closer to winning the game. All it did was delay your death one day, max. All you did was engage in a 1-for-1 trade which hurt your team. Mafia's disadvantage is numbers. 1-for-1 trades increase that disadvantage. The only distraction that help your team was DP2, where I pushed the lynch on Wylted. You had nothing to do with that and if it wasn't for my distraction, you would have been the DP2 lynch.
I was actually a more pro-mafia player than you were.
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@Speedrace
Making him a normal hider is actually weaker, since he can't confirm anyone.
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