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@Vader
You could not have confirmed town oro because of the true fact he gave mafia 2/3 gadgets
He was 99% town because of his CC of Cog. His role has nothing to do with it.
And your play didn't work. You died. And your team lost.
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As far as balance is concerned we had:
Town:
50% Roleblocker
Bulletproof
Gadget-Giver (1x Lie Detecter, 1x Roleblocker, 1x Doctor)
Watcher
Gladiator/Silencer
Vote-Giver
Messenger
Weak Hider
Role giver
Mafia:
Odd-night Strongman
1x Governor
Ascetic
50% role blocker, vote-giver, messenger, gladiator/silencer, ascetic, and role giver are null. They either have no real impact on this game or are as likely to benefit/harm town as they are mafia.
Likewise the gadgets are null because of their ability to end up in Mafia hands. Indeed, 2/3 of then did end up in Mafia hands.
That leaves:
Town:
Bulletproof
Watcher
Weak Hider
Mafia:
Odd-night Strongman
1x Governor
Given that weak hider dies if hitting mafia and dies if their target dies, and mafia has a strong man, the net result of the weak hider should be expected to be an extra death for the Mafia. Weak Hider leans mafia.
That leaves:
Town:
Bulletproof
Watcher
Mafia:
Odd-night Strongman
1x Governor
Strong-man should counter BP, so in the end we have Watcher vs. 1x Governor.
Watcher, effectively, should only be good once. Once they out their results, they are a threat and mafia should kill them. So watcher can get a single mafia killed (before being Nk target themselves) and governor can save one mafia lynch. It's a wash.
I call this game pretty damned balanced. The problem here was choice of mafia Nks. Simply put, you killed people that didn't matter and you didn't exploit your abilities.
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@oromagi
What was the point of having us all do "I win with the town" DP2?
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@warren42
Warren needs more kudos, I think. He consistently scum-read Supa from the start. If it wasn't for the whole replacement stuff which confused a lot of people, the game probably would have ended a lot sooner.
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@Vader
No, your first read was DP2, not DP3. I said BEFORE DP3
I'm talking about the claim: "I got cucked DP3 bc role claim"
You didn't. Everyone was FOSing you way before warren claimed.
As far as DP2 is concerned, AROSE TRd you, yes.
You were null/scumleaning to oro:
PIE Fos'd you:
Mhraman put you on his null/scum list:
warren null's you:
In fact - and I'll even take the hit on this - if it wasn't for me going after Wylted, you'd have died DP2 most likely. So please, spin more bullshit about you being town-read DP2.
I said based off of DP2, DP1 again. Not hearing correctly
Well, again, I wasn't talking about the "pre-DP3" claim, I was talking about why you gained suspicion DP3. You were well under suspicion before warren's claim. And, as shown about, were highly suspected DP2 by anyone that bothered to provide a read. You want to look at DP1, then? Sure.
oro has you somewhat near his Town side, like... five seconds into the game, by the end of DP1 you've dropped a slot. Also, you only started as high as you did because of your early activity.
You start out null with AROSE, then he "randomly" reads you as Town.
Lean-town with water
warren doesn't like your hedging on Ragnar (good call by warren, btw)
So exactly 1 person legitimately read you as town. DP1.
And I pulled off that stunt because you believed it. I knew it was outed, my strat was to distract
But... I didn't believe it. I never believed it. I assumed Grey had some hidden knowledge and you were just acting stupid.
I tried paving the way for Ragnar by causing distractions. That was my strat
That isn't a strat. It's literally the bottom-barrel level of mafia play. Anyone capable of typing gibberish can cause a distraction.
He was never confirmed town. He gave us a taser and a BP vest. he only gave one legit answer, sorry... he was not confirmed town
Do you read, bro. Look at the linked post (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2816/post_links/118416) you're talking about PIE who, at that point, was DEAD and flipped Town, yet you're arguing that he set you up.
That was oro's idea. I followed through
Eventually. You noticeably stalled (https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2816/post_links/118445)
DISTRACTIONS
See above. Distracting is 0-tier level play.
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@Speedrace
There is no point in engaging:
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@Vader
Your memory is poor.
My first post, you're on my scum list:
Same with Grey:
You're at the scum-end of AROSE' list:
And, of course, warren's visit on you:
You were pretty much set to die:
The turning point was here:
I don't know why Grey all of a sudden FOS'd warren. Apparently something Pie told Grey meant warren was lying? But even then I still was mostly FOSing you:
Regardless, in the end it really wasn't a big deal. Everyone knew that either you or warren (or both) were scum, so we would just lynch one and then the other if warren flipped down. Everyone understood this - even you, and that's exactly what happened:
The only reason warren was lynched vs. you was because you were the last one to provide a CC. And that's how it works. Person A makes a claim. person B counter claims. You lynch person A. If A flips town, you lynch B. It is guaranteed to get scum and, at worst, is a 1-for-1 trade-off which benefits town.
You were essentially counter-counter-claiming warren, but, regardless, you were the last in the CC-chain, so you lynch the penultimate person. That's just how it works. It wasn't because of any genius of your gambit, or because anyone really Town read you. It was because it didn't really matter.
You also had a lot of poor play:
Claiming that a town person set up up as a mislynch:
FOSing perhaps the most Town person in the game at that point:
Your stalling on the "I win with the town" thing
This whole "redirect" nonsense:
It was basically gibberish.
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@Barney
@Vader
@Cogent_Cognizer
Also, I said to give up the second I joined the game. Tsk.
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@Wylted
It's vibranium all the way down.
Not that roles on an internet mafia game are supposed to be literal interpretations of anything.
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@Speedrace
Adamantium doesn't canonically exist in the MCU. Due to the licensing division of the Marvel universe, different characters and concepts are isolated from each other. This is why it requires an agreement from Sony for Disney to use Spider-Man. Now, I don't know if adamantium is one of those things that are bound by licensing, but it is clear that production companies have made some thematic decisions, to wit:
Mutants and Adamantium are bound with the X-Men universe previously owned by Fox.
The MCU instead does not have "mutants" and the material of choice is Vibranium, not Adamantium. Neither the word "mutant" nor "adamantium" appears in any MCU script or material.
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@Wylted
Adamantium doesn't exist in the MCU, as I said before.
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Yeah, I'll take the hit on the warren lynch. I'll contend that if you reread that DP, you'll see I wasn't really sold on it. The deciding factor for me was Grey's certainty (which he's owned up to as well). As Town, we did fumble that one.
To be fair, I could have spent a very long time hounding Supa about this stupid gambit, but I've seen his kinds of responses ("that's my town play!") far too often and it really didn't seem like anyone else was willing to back me up against Supa. Ironically, he was right: the death of a town narrows down who is mafia. At the very least, we know now that Supa also pulls dumb gambits when he is mafia, too. So "it's my town play!" won't work again.
Wylted was just unfortunate, though a but of OMGUS on my part. He was low key sus'ing me since day one because of the Thor/Hulk rivalry (despite there being no theme cut among Town/Mafia) and he wasn't letting go the whole thing about my subbing back in. Even though a mislynch, I think it was still in Town's best interest, as it was just causing a distraction.
What I find really bizarre is Ragnar not using his power on me NP3. They had every reason to believe AROSE would be hiding behind me, so it would have been two kills for the price of one. Killing Pie was completely sub-optimal.
Feedback for the mod:
You need to be less frivolous with the mod killing and replacements. Once you make a decision like that, you need to stand by it. If you have requirements for participation and a player doesn't meet them: kick them out of the game. Period. The requirement was activity, not existence. Just because they pop back online doesn't mean they're going to be active. And you certainly don't request and accept replacements with the intention of kicking them back out the second the original player comes online; at least not without telling that replacement.
And, I don't think I need to stress why you can't swap living players, regardless of alignment. Only the players of dead Town characters can replace back in, and only if they don't have any secret knowledge (such as role reports and such).
Also - and this is a bit of a nit pick - when you replace someone, you aren't "modkilling" them. You are replacing them. Mod-killing means to kill that character and put them in the graveyard.
Otherwise I thought this was a very enjoyable game. I liked the different roles.
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@Speedrace
Wall-O-Text incoming.
Okay, mechanically there can be 1-2 mafia. Looking simply at numbers, there are 4 possibilities for 1 Mafia (one for each player), and 6 possibilities for 2 Mafia.
Adding some logic we can narrow things down.
1. Mharman can't be Mafia while Ragnar is Town. If Mharman was scum, then the lie detector would have failed, but if Ragnar was Town he wouldn't have lied about it. That eliminates 3 total possibilities.
2. Ragnar and Water can't both be Town, as they are CCing each other via Night actions. That eliminates one more option.
Of the remaining 6 options, Mharman is Mafia in one of them, AROSE Mafia in 2, Water Mafia in 3, and Ragnar Mafia in 4.
Those are the certainties, or at least near enough to be certain.
Here are some less certain considerations:
3. If there was one Mafia, water coming out with this gambit would be suicide. We lynch Ragnar, he kills Mharman, then me and AROSE lynch him tomorrow. It'd be auto win for town. So if there is only one mafia, it's Ragnar.
4. If there are two Mafia, then it is LYLO and it seems unlikely that they would perform a bus at this juncture. Maybe they thought that a bus was necessary, given that me, AROSE, and Mharman are various levels of "confirmed" but a bus only delays the inevitable: they'd have to push a lynch on one of us. So we can discount both Ragnar and Water being mafia.
This eliminates two more options, leaving 4. In 3 of those Ragnar is mafia. In 2 of those AROSE is mafia. Water and Mharman are mafia in 1 each.
Now, let's go deeper.
5. If water is scum, he has a partner (since one mafia means Ragnar is scum per #3). If he has a partner, it's either AROSE or Mharman. DP2 really makes this odd as that means both mafia tried to come up with a fake mislynch against someone (water v ragnar; Mharman v me). Also, water watching AROSE (which Ragnar confirms). Mafia either tried to kill me or AROSE that night. If they tried to kill AROSE, why watch him (unless a deliberate gambit to try and pin the NK on someone else that visited him). But if that was the play, why would Mharman come out against me and split the vote? If they tried to kill me, and were planning on mislynching me with Mharman, why would water consider Ragnar as having tried to kill AROSE?
Ultimately I don't think it works out with water being scum. I agree this last point is the weakest, but all along Ragnar is coming out on top in being scum.
VTL Ragnar
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@Barney
@WaterPhoenix
@A-R-O-S-E
Ragnar claims to have lie detected as being a truth teller. The conclusion we can draw from this is that Ragnar can't be Town while Mharman is also Scum. Unfortunately, Grey died and he was part of my analysis.
He made me double voter. I'm going to bed for realz and will be back in about 8 hours to end this.
Ragnar and water are basically cross voting and I can lynch either at this point, so I look forward to your very best cases/defenses against each other tomorrow morning.
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It’s possible there are still 2 mafia left. I’m going to bed but want to crunch some numbers before we Lynch.
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@A-R-O-S-E
Mhar was verified by the lie detector.
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That means grey has the protection gadget and didn't use it to protect Oro. Scum.
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No, you're not. Take your lynch like a big boy so we can move on.
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For someone who was so open to getting lynched if warren flipped town, you are sure making a fuss about it now.
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@Vader
You didn't explain how you lying about receiving a message was supposed to out a roleblocker or redirector. You've only repeated why you allegedly did it, not the logic behind how it was suppose to work.
Which it clearly didn't.
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Also Grey probably didn't double vote me because he knew I was going to come out with guns blazing on Supa
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You either lied for no reason or you lied to get town killed. Either merits death. You had plenty of time last phase to explain but chose to whine about how lying is your town play.
Hell, you've had two days to think about explaining your Gambit and haven't chosen to do so.
Die.
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@Vader
I did. You are part of the Mafia and a traitor. There will be no help for you this time.
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FWIW, your Gambit makes zero sense, but don't bother explaining it. You had your chance to do so last phase and didn't and now you die.
I also sus Grey now for backing you and pushing so hard on warren.
FYI, I'm at the Opera so I will disappear in about an hour for several hours.
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Supa: "And you know what. Lynch me if he flips town. That could narrow down mafia more..."
Don't mind if I do.
Vtl Supa
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@zedvictor4
Boy Scouts and subsequently Boy Scouts of America.The origins of the Scout movement was solely for boys.Girl Guides was the original equivalent.
As I said (several times), this was merely an extension of the general societal gender segregation. Indeed, Baden Powell stated that Girls can be Scouts as well. There is nothing about the principles of Scouting that is inherently male.
But, let's ditch the old sexist propaganda.And regroup, rename and make a good wholesome politically correct fresh start.I propose:Gender Neutral Infantry.
People whine about the name too much. "Boy Scouts of America" is just the name of a company (and hard to change, for that reason). There is no reason to change the name.
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@Vader
You still haven't explained how your lie implicates him. For the fourth time.
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@Speedrace
Post 179 should be the hammer
Supa: Oro, Warren
Warren: Grey, Supa, Water, Drafterman
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@Vader
Well it works.
HOW. HOW. HOW.
How does your lie implicate warren?
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@A-R-O-S-E
Hide behind me tonight. Having two unkillable town people is a boon that shouldn't be wasted.
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If warren flips Town, SUPA does and this puts a dent in my trust of Grey.
Unvote. VTL warren
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@Vader
I baited that I did not receive Pie DP1 letter when i did, just to prove that warren is a redirect mafia role because I DID receive one.
Except that former doesn't prove the latter.
All you did was lie about not receiving a letter (which generates sus on Pie) and makes people think there is a redirector/blocker when there isn't necessarily one. Then you revealed you lied about it because... what? How does this mean warren is scum?
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@Vader
So you don't act like town when you're scum?
Also, PIE gives out multiple letters, so you getting won proves nothing.
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I also don't get Supas Gambit. Making town think there is a redirector only generates confusion and doubt that benefits Mafia.
Lynch All Liars.
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I'm still learning on Supa. I just don't see how this Gambit would benefit mafia. Especially when he was already getting lynched.
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@Greyparrot
Are you saying Warren is bussing Supa?
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