drafterman's avatar

drafterman

A member since

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Total posts: 5,653

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This fucking site.
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@Raltar
The MEEP process is pointless because of its arbitrary thresholds to get anything done
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This fucking site.
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@bsh1
If you are at all interested in my actual position, allow me to state it clearly, for the record:

1. The job of the moderator is to enforce the rules of the site. This necessarily includes eliminating violating content and restricting the actions of violators.
2. #1 is independent and separate from what the rules actually are, how they are determined, and how they are changed.
3. If you are unwilling to do #1, you shouldn't be a moderator.
4. The opinions of people regarding #1 are irrelevant and not a factor. If you are worried that you won't win most popular member because of #1, then you shouldn't be a moderator.
5. The majority impact of the moderator comes not through their discretionary powers (though there is some impact from this) but through what the rules are in the first place (this is a position I have consistently held). There should be a minimal (though necessarily non-zero) "judgement calls." Individual mod personality shouldn't be a factor. They should simply be human robots implementing a policy. Any issues with that should be considered issue with the policy itself, not the moderators.
6. Mods should not change or dictate moderation policy unilaterally. There are many ways of implementing the change process. The only person who should change policy unilaterally is the site owner.
7. Public referrenda can provide useful information, and if they are used, should be majority only, no participation thresholds.
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@bsh1
Like I said, if youre just going to assume my answers, don't fucking ask the questions.
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@bsh1
Unless your stance is to actually enforce the rules, I fail to see the purpose in soliciting any input via any method.

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@Vader
Oh cmon my guy. If some random dude over the internet called you a cunt would you REALLY want the post deleted versus someone saying that to you head on

It could be me being thick skinned on the internet because idrc about it, but I think people would brush off someone calling them a cunt
Depends on the forum. There are some fora where that is acceptable and some where it is not. Based on the rules of this site, it is not.
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@bsh1
You are calling here then for the elimination of MEEPs. Correct or not?
Yes, I think the stupid process I called out as stupid and have repeatedly referred to as an abomination and voted against should be eliminated. Shocker, I know.

Let me repeat:
Let me repeat: if you don't want to actually do the job of a moderator, step down.
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This fucking site.
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@bsh1
So I should rule by fiat and eliminate any deliberative-style process, like MEEP or even a majority-vote discussion? Good to know.
You should enforce the CoC (which was established by fiat). Period. if you don't want to do that because it upsets people. Step down.

Seems like you missed the point again. I'll repeat: "It's not causing any more harm just sitting there than it did when Castin read it, unlike a post which doxxes or includes a link to a pornographic website, for example." There is certainly an initial harm in the post being created; there does not seem to be an ongoing harm in leaving the post up.
And why does that matter?
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This fucking site.
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@bsh1
So I should rule by fiat and eliminate any deliberative-style process, like MEEP or even a majority-vote discussion? Good to know.
You should enforce the CoC. Period. if you don't want to do that because it upsets people. Step down.

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@Vader
I am sorry but what the fuck. In the 1st page you literally said nothing. I could not find anything anywhere expect now that says "EVIDENCE"
Then read the thread. Not just the first post. Not just the first page. Actually READ. THE. THREAD. You can't just read the last five posts and jump in without context.

Calling someone a "cunt" versus calling someone a "fuckface dumbass fat retard" has a difference 
Yes. They are different. But they are still both directed attacks.

LINK ME TO THE POST WHERE YOU SAID THAT BC U DID NOT SAY THAT NOR APPLY IT EITHER(caps for more attention
READ. THE. THREAD. If you can't be bothered, neither can I.

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@Castin
Ah, I see you switched into irreverent humor mode. Let me know when you actually want to discuss the issue some more.
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This fucking site.
I don't believe I ever said that. I don't delete posts because I am not in the business of censoring people,
Moderation literally is that business. If you don't want the job, step down.

because it has been indicated to me that that was not what the community desired,
So? Your job isn't people pleaser, it's moderation.

and because the poster was punished--there doesn't seem to be much to gain from deleting the post.
How about enforcing the fucking rules? If I go graftti a building, I get punished AND the grafitti gets removed.

It's not causing anymore harm just sitting there than it did when Castin read it, unlike a post which doxxes or includes a link to a pornographic website, for example.
Its status as violating the rules remains unchanged. If such posts are harmless, then they shouldn't be against the CoC.

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@Vader
??? Can you elaborate this part???
Dude. Actually read the thread. The argument isn't that the post is fine, it's that it's being kept as "evidence."

A personal attack is saying something more in depth like, "Your a fucking fat whale shithead." That is more of a direct attack than calling someone a cunt because it is A) One word, B) vaguely describing someone. If I called someone an asshole or just said "Bitch.", it is not a direct threat
There is no minimum word requirement here.

Then what are you suggesting? what other mod action are you wanting to take for this
DELETE THE POST
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@Castin
Why does the fact that "someone will complain" come up in these discussions?
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@Vader
This forum is simply over reacting to "cunt." There is no reason to get so annoyed at moderation here for seeing no wrong in the post.
They did see wrong in the post. You aren't paying attention. It's kept here not because it was fine but as "evidence" because bsh1 now imagines him as being in an episode of CSI or some shit.

If the post said. "Your a fucking cunt face shit mcgee," then you can say it's bannable, but one word alone will never be enough to ban someone beside words like the n-word or a homophobic term
I'm not talking about banning anyone. Again, you're not paying attention.

It was a personal attack against a user with no other content whatsoever. It is a violation of the CoC with no mitigating factors. Unequivocally. It should be deleted.

This is a separate issue from banning anyone.
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@Castin
It's interesting that one of the most heated complaints from members is that mods are heavy-handed and oppressive tyrants, but another of the most heated complaints is that mods are too democratic and not strict enough. 
It's almost as if this shouldn't be a factor!

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This fucking site.
Doing what you ask here would constitute a change in current moderation policy, which would necessitate a moderation policy. This condition of changing policy was something you strongly advocated for several times, including in that first link.

The only official policy is the written CoC, which says your job is to enforce the rules. Can you link to the thread where this was changed?

Then you could have easily cast a qualified vote, as some others did. Plus, it's impossible to believe that that was your actual interpretation of the question. If you really believed the scope was wider, you would have read that question as "should moderation lock or delete posts it dislikes," in which case you would have thrown a bitchfest over that dichotomy, which you didn't. Instead you were ambivalent.
If you're just going to assume my answers to your questions, then just eliminate the middleman and don't fucking ask me.

There will, given the interest in this topic, be a MEEP process on this question of thread deletion and post deletion. 
Translation: Nothing will fucking change because the MEEP process is an abomination.
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@Castin
Why? The entire point of moderation on any site is to do just that. It isn't up for question. That is one of the primary reasons moderation exists, anywhere. It's like asking: "should moderation moderate?" If anyone on the mod team needs to seriously ask the users to answer this question for them, they should step down immediately.

And the MEEP process is an abomination.
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This fucking site.
The scope of the question in the first link was more than just CoC violating posts, at least by how I interpreted the wording.

As far as the second link, it was an easy shot to make. I disagree with laissez faire, but my disagreement doesn't preclude me from making fun of someone that fails to adhere by it when they've established it as a guiding motivation for their actions. I agree with the deletion of those posts. But that's not inline with the moderation stance you said you'd take. Which makes you either short sighted, a liar, or a hypocrite, any of which are acceptable reasons to take said pot shots.

You don't need a MEEP process to start moderating. You just need to start fucking doing it.
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This fucking site.
Drafter, if you recall very early back in my modship, many users protested at my removing posts which violated the COC,
Tough shit. What do you want to do, please people, or mod? You volunteered to mod. SO MOD.

insisting that doing so was overkill. This desire was seemingly confirmed when the community voted to lock call out threads rather than simply deleting them.
Which has exactly ZILCH to do with what we're talking about here, which is directed harassment of another user.

Moderation no longer deletes posts in less they include links to adult content, doxxing information, or credible threats of violence or doxxing.
Which is stupid. It's a moderation policy to not perform moderation.
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@Castin
IT SHOULD BE REMOVED.

If it was illegal content, or pornographic content, this wouldn't even be a discussion. The idea that the mods will deliberately leave harassing and offensive, rule violating material for... reasons... is stupid.
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@Castin
Do you think it's a good policy to destroy evidence that justifies moderator action?
I think it is a necessary policy to delete posts and threads that violate the CoC.

When the mods delete posts it tends to inflame accusations of oppression and conspiracy. 
This should not be a component of moderator decisions.

It is abundantly clear that not only does the mod team have no experience moderating, they have no conception of it, either.
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@Castin
And?
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@Castin
Because they looked at the post and deemed it appropriate content for the site. If they disapproved of it, they should have deleted it. They didn't delete it, ergo they approved it.
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This fucking site.

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DART Jury Trial System Signups: DART v. RationalMadman
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@Wylted
It's a donation, not a purchase. You should not expect special treatment or favors for being a donater. To even imply it is basically a form of extortion. And before you all late comers I was there first.
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DART Jury Trial System Signups: DART v. RationalMadman
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@Logical-Master
Just be aware that your "experiment" is basically to violate the CoC to see what happens.
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DART Jury Trial System Signups: DART v. RationalMadman
Good luck getting it changed with the ridiculously high bar everyone voted on.
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DART Jury Trial System Signups: DART v. RationalMadman
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@Raltar
Moderator decisions are final and not subject to appeal.

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DART Jury Trial System Signups: DART v. RationalMadman
3. Trials
Trials of users are prohibited. Trials foster a culture of mob rule, and are thus counterproductive to the interests of fairness, order, and effective site administration.

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Existence/Reality
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@keithprosser
As I understand it, the idea is to examine words in the context of ordinary discourse rather than imposing a definition from the outset.  Of course the discourse has to be intelligible and coherent - word salad is not 'discourse'.
Even in "ordinary discourse" words can have multiple meanings. If you're giving me directions over the phone and tell me to "turn right", that direction is meaningless unless you know which direction I'm heading down the street.

Wittgenstein argued that we do not learn the meaning of words as definitions; we pick up on the rules for using a word in discourse. Therefore philosphy is - or it should be? - concerned with a word's usage, not its dictionary definition.
That's what dictionary definitions are: a capturing of how words are used in discourse. Since words can be used in different ways, the dictionary captures them all. If you want to have a meaingful discourse all you have to do is specify which of those meanings you are referring to.

I really really really don't get why this is such an objectionable thing to you. We could be talking about existence vs. reality RIGHT NOW, but you are so opposed to clarifying what you mean, or setting a context from which we can derive meaning, that we're off on this bizarre tangent.

Would it not be simpler and more productive for you to just clarify what you mean?

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@keithprosser
But suppose we want to discover the nature of truth, or of morality.  One cannot 'clearly define' what is unknown.
Yes you can. It then becomes a search to see if the thing you defined corresponds to the world as it is.

Or perhaps we dispute the nature of morality - whose definition do we use then?
You are presuming some objective, absolute nature of morality that exists independent of human thought and the challenge is simply finding out what it is. This notion is false; abandon it. The only "nature" of morality that exists are those defined by humans. When they come into conflict you use the same conflict resolution techniques you'd use to solve any dispute, such as people disagreeing on where to go for lunch.

And if we use two definitions of morality, are we talking about the same thing each time?
Obviously not.

'Morality' is a word in the English language, so dictionary compilers are obliged to put something in their books but working out what morality truly is the job of philosophers, not dictionary writers.
What do you mean "what morality truly is?" Words mean whatever we want them to mean. That's how language operates.

An alternative approach is provided by Wittgenstein who summed it up as "Meaning is use".  By attending to the ordinary language contexts that give words their meaning, we can avoid misusing them and trying to make them mean things that they aren’t made to mean.   That's the theory, anyway!
That's not an alternative, that's how language works. It's how it has only ever worked.
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Suggestions for new discussion formats or website sections
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@DebateArt.com
I can understand the frustration. I hope it works out.
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Suggestions for new discussion formats or website sections
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@DebateArt.com
I am thinking about simply adding ads at some point, it seems like the only way after all, since nobody wants to donate anyway.
Make it a site people want to donate to.
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Existence/Reality
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@keithprosser
It is not a "word game" to clearly define your terms and/or define the context they are to be used. In fact, it's the only way to have a meaningful philosophical discussion. As it is, there are multiple meanings and multiple contexts the terms "exist" and "real" can be used, to various effects.

You seem to object to this.
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Existence/Reality
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@keithprosser
You really do struggle with words having multiple overlapping meanings, don't you?
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Wylted is Gone...
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@Wylted
I was talking to Mharman about RM.
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Is there a hole inside you?
Yes. There is. I put food in it.
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Paradox of atheism
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@Fallaneze
It’s only absurd if maximizing your wellbeing requires a belief in god. Does it?
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Paradox of atheism
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@Fallaneze
I don't know about that. We act on our instincts but instincts don't count as subconscious beliefs. Our instincts may lay the ground work for us to begin a chain of thought from, but a belief is something that you accept to be true. It's a mental process, not a subconscious process. 
It most certainly is. While you can articulate them consciously, and even be consciously aware of some of them forming, almost all of them are formed subconsciously. 

It seems true that maximizing your own wellbeing is a rational thing to do. Why wouldn't it be? 
So you've gambled on the chance that something that is self-evident to you is also self-evident to your reader. Sorry, you lost. If you want me to accept this premise, you'll have to justify it.

The paradox is that an atheist can be more rational for holding a fictitious belief in God as long as it achieves their desires better than atheism does. 
That's not a paradox. That's an atheist converting to theism. You entitled this thread "the paradox of atheism" which implies some sort of logical contradiction inherent in an atheistic worldview. You've failed to demonstrate one.
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Atheism is harder to believe
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@keithprosser
Undoubtedly,but its only possible to understand the world because matter is stable and the laws of physics are regular.
We don't that matter is stable or that the laws of physics are regular. We assume it, but we don't know it's the case. Also, entropy ensures that configurations of matter grow inherently more chaotic.

  As it is, we can rely on that if B follows from A today, it will also do so tomorrow. If the world was totally chaotic it would be impossible to understand.
Or we would create false "understanding" which we certainly do in any event.


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If your internal organs have a purpose, God exists.
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@Fallaneze
Well each statement seems incorrect. It doesn't seem like there's no fact of the matter on whether it's better to have a heart with clogged arteries or not. Some of this has to do with the architecture of the heart itself. You can infer what role each part has. So I'm finding it interesting how, if God doesn't exist, our internal organs have an imagined purpose and the implications of that
All purposes ever known by man were created by man. I challenge you to show me any purpose set by a god.

Nor does God existing doesn't grant them a purpose anyway. You can only guess at what God's purpose is. Maybe God designed the universe with the purpose of generating gold via supernovae and humans are just an irrelevant byproduct of this process. Like organic gunk that accumulates in the ice machine that is the universe.

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Paradox of atheism
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@Fallaneze
If God doesn't exist, holding true beliefs over fictitious ones boils down to a completely subjective preference since neither "true beliefs" nor "fictitious beliefs" are intrinsically more important than the other.
Beliefs are not entirely chosen based upon conscious choice. You make it seem as if we go to the belief store and stroll down the aisle, picking and choosing. I'd say a vast majority of our beliefs are determined through subconscious naturalistic processes, rather than any sort of conscious weigh algorithm implied here.

If God doesn't exist, and you're a rational person, you should hold whatever beliefs achieve your goals. If your goal is to maximise your own wellbeing (which is a rational thing to do) then you should hold fictitious beliefs when they give you more well-being than true ones.
You haven't established that maximizing my own wellbeing is a rational thing to do. But the rest certainly holds.

However, I was promised a paradox and you didn't deliver. Were you lying or do you just not know what paradoxes are?
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If your internal organs have a purpose, God exists.
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@Fallaneze
Ok. What's the end game here? What's the conclusion with this line of conversation?
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If your internal organs have a purpose, God exists.
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@Fallaneze
Ok, and?
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If your internal organs have a purpose, God exists.
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@Fallaneze
Better in what way?
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If your internal organs have a purpose, God exists.
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@Fallaneze
Ok, and?
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Atheism is harder to believe
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@keithprosser
It exactly does. Organisms that understand the world have a distinct survival advantage over those that don't.
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Atheism is harder to believe
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@Fallaneze
Because it's the world our brains evolved in. Finding it intelligible and interesting is evolutionary beneficial.
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MEEP: Voting Policy, Part 2
Bullshit.
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If your internal organs have a purpose, God exists.
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@Fallaneze
They part where we metaphorically describe organs as achieving goals, yes.
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