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@ILikePie5
It's not a bad analogy because you can impeach for anything and call it anything you want. You can't do that for crimes.
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@warren42
I did. I don't see it. Perhaps you can stop hiding your information and tell us.
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@ILikePie5
It is, but that wasn't the point. The point was there are reasons why Mafia might not NK me, so the fact that wasn't killed is null.
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@warren42
What changed from your stance here:
Where you were unpersuaded to here:
Where all of a sudden you agree.
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@ILikePie5
Democrats bought Abuse of Power in the impeachment articles without specifically saying which power. So yes people would buy it'
Impeachment is not a criminal process.
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@ILikePie5
My point is that "corruption" is, at best a qualifier for a crime, not a crime unto itself. Would you buy someone claiming "aggravation" because "aggravated assault" is a crime?
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@ILikePie5
Huh
I was riffing on warren's apparent decision to do the exact opposite of anything I suggested.
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@warren42
And yet you refused to pressure him. So you don't get to agree with it. You had your chance to agree with it and you felt it was more worth your time to be contrarian.
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@ILikePie5
I think most sensible people would just call that "bribery."
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@ILikePie5
So is he corruption by threat of harm against a public servant? Corruption bribery? Corruption of public resources? Something else? All of them?
I stand by my assertion that "corruption" is a generic term that doesn't refer to some specific crime. That's not say the word doesn't appear at all in the legal code, just that it isn't a narrow thing as opposed to prostitution or murder or disrupting the peace.
And, to be clear, I'm not suggesting that we have to be a specific, individual crime, as according to some code (e.g. Murder in some specific degree) but I think it's fair to admit that a term that covers misusing resources, bribing people, and threatening to assault them, is a fairly broad umbrella.
It stands out and was worth probing, imo.
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Also, one rather obvious reason why mafia wouldn't NK me: they think they can get me mislynched. So maybe look at the people who can out of the gate trying to lynch me?
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@warren42
She is parroting my advice to another mafia player from another game.
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@Lunatic
Wait... What!? You thought I was trying to claim roleblocker?
I thought it was a possibility.
Don't you think I would have said something in agreement to you about having a scum role then in dp1? Even if I was scum that would be fishy as hell to claim roleblocker after not mentioning early that I also had a scum type of role.
Exactly, so I was laying the ground work for that possibility.
Did you roleblock last night?
I roleblocked you.
Going back to bed for a couple of hours. Keeping my vote where it is for now, i'll reflect when I am more awake buy unless I am missinh something I don't think anythings changed. I am still more suspicious of his behavior in the last two phases than I am about his claim. I can buy town having a roleblocker sometimes.
Ok, well real life intervened. If you have some reason to explain why real life would intervene moreso if I'm scum than town, I'd love to hear it.
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@Speedrace
It isn't? It's basically null utility for town.
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Ok, that's good enough for me.
I'm prostitution, role blocker. Mafia role blocker is not uncommonly known as "hooker" which is why that is my role.
I was thinking that Lunatic might be angling for also claiming role blocker as you can bribe people not to do something, so some shit. I was trying to set up a possible CC.
Unvote
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@whiteflame
All crime is a subset of some larger group, but corruption isn't really even that. Not everything that is corrupt is a crime. Nepotism is corruption but it's not criminal.
Like, if you asked me for an example of my crime I could give you an example of my actual crime. Lunatic has to give examples of other crimes that fall under his general category. That is a distinct and obvious difference.
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@whiteflame
I don't know anything. That's your inference not my implication. I want to know something: Lunatic's role. The only information I have to give is my full claim. But I want Lunatic's first.So, you don't know anything, but for some reason, getting a claim from Lunatic triggers your capacity to claim?
No, it triggers my desire to claim.
Something about knowing his role provides you with sufficient information to say what you are and why that matters?
We won't know his role unless he's lynched and flips or survived until the end claim. It's less knowing his role and more seeing what he claims his role is. And him deciding what to claim is important to me.
You keep saying that you'd be happy to explain something as soon as he claims, so how are you not implying that information about his role somehow clarifies something about yours or allows you to do something that you can't do without it? Maybe you don't have information, but you have a reason for doing this that you are not providing.
Yes, that would be more accurate I suppose. I don't have any game related information to provide other than my claim. My motivations and logic I have to provide as well, but it's all part in parcel.
I did see that. But his crime should then be "bribery" not "corruption." Corruption isn't a crime or a class of crimes it's just a colloquial phrase. This is my sticking point.Not sure why the specification in his post doesn't clarify that his role is a crime, but I guess that's your interpretation, one we're not on the same page about.
My character is a crime in itself. Not a superset label of generically criminal behavior of which specific crimes are a part of. What about yours?
Right, generally you vote people as scum when you have a reason to think they're scum. What's you're reason for thinking I'm scum?Frankly, I didn't have any strong reason to believe you were scum beyond any strong unwillingness to claim. You've doubled down on that unwillingness since I voted for you. I'm still struggling with the reason why and I think it could be justified, but I'm not seeing you justify it. I'm just seeing you continuously imply that there are justifications, and I just have to push on Lunatic to find them... somehow.
Allow me to present a hypothetical scenario. Let's say you had a messenger type role. This role allows you to give other people messages at night. Not an uncommon role here. Let's say the mod has added a twist that says only Town people actually receive the message: Scum does not. Also, you don't get any independent verification of whether your message was received.
You send a message to someone else and want to know if they received it. How do you proceed? If you full claim first, you give the game away; of course they'll say they got the message. You need them to claim first to have anything matter.
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@whiteflame
If I told you I would claim after Congress certifies the electoral votes would you then rush to DC to stop it?
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@whiteflame
though if we can get more information this DP before the lynch, I'll push for that.
You absolutely can get more information this DP.
You know what information you can get? Lunatic's claim. It seems that your only objection to getting Lunatic's claim is the fact I said I wanted it.
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As far as why I was inactive last phase, that's nonya bidness. IRL intervened and, last I checked, RL doesn't care about anyone's affiliation.
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drafterman - 2/5 - Lunatic, Danielle
lunatic - 1/5 - drafterman
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@whiteflame
If you want to know the aim of all of this is, pressure Lunatic. I currently do not have any additional information that could be used to support a vote on Lunatic.I'd rather press you. You keep hinting that you know something, but refuse to say what it is until we get a claim from Lunatic. Do you know something that you can definitely tell us, but only after Lunatic gives his claim, or will Lunatic's claim somehow unlock information that you don't currently have?
I don't know anything. That's your inference not my implication. I want to know something: Lunatic's role. The only information I have to give is my full claim. But I want Lunatic's first.
Right, but he didn't claim bribery, he claimed corruption. Bribery is a crime. Corruption is just a generic colloquialism.Quoting from DP1: "corruption- Accepting bribes for favors"As in, he is this subset of corruption. If all you did was look back at the summaries posted later in DP1, you might not have seen this. Why should I ignore the specification within the same post where he claimed?
I did see that. But his crime should then be "bribery" not "corruption." Corruption isn't a crime or a class of crimes it's just a colloquial phrase. This is my sticking point.
Maybe it is. But if you don't think I'm scum then it's also anti-town to be voting me.I didn't say I don't think you're scum. I said I don't understand why you'd take this route as scum. I'm absolutely willing to be convinced that there's merit to it, but I haven't seen that yet.
Right, generally you vote people as scum when you have a reason to think they're scum. What's you're reason for thinking I'm scum?
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@Bullish
Oh, speed unvoted
drafterman - 3/5 - Lunatic, whiteflame, Danielle
lunatic - 1/5 - drafterman
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@Bullish
drafterman - 5/5 - Lunatic, whiteflame, Speed, Supa, Danielle
lunatic - 1/5 - drafterman
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@Vader
Drafter is lying. I gave Lunatic weed
What am I lying about, exactly?
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@Danielle
Ok then nvm I misunderstood what I thought your claim was. Now I want your claim and am perfectly willing to lynch you to get it if you insist. Especially if it's not that useful.
If you want my claim: pressure Lunatic.
If you want to lynch me, vote me.
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@Speedrace
I'm saying your arguments about your role assume you're telling the truth about your affiliation
No they don't. I could absolutely just be mafia saying I have a mafia-named role but am trying to peddle it as town due to the idiosyncracies of this game. My role is completely affiliation agnostic.
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@whiteflame
Dude, I'm not going to vote for him on the basis that you're actively hiding information that you will suddenly choose to reveal if he claims. I'm not sure what the aim of all this is, but if there's information you could be giving me to better support a vote for Lunatic, do it.
If you want to know the aim of all of this is, pressure Lunatic. I currently do not have any additional information that could be used to support a vote on Lunatic.
I'm not going to take "I'll tell you later" as an excuse to vote for someone else, nor do I think your character analysis does much to push me in that direction (we don't have any other character claims beyond his and mine, so we have very few to compare with, and it's not just corruption, but specifically BRIBERY that's the criminal offense).
Right, but he didn't claim bribery, he claimed corruption. Bribery is a crime. Corruption is just a generic colloquialism.
Frankly, I don't know why you'd be willing to do this if you're scum, but if you're so willing to be lynched before saying anything about your character or role, that seems at least anti-town to me.
Maybe it is. But if you don't think I'm scum then it's also anti-town to be voting me.
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@Speedrace
So you're saying that I only know my affiliation, not my role? That makes no sense.
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@Danielle
BTW, the difference here is I don't think people are assholes or idiots for not agreeing with me and if Town loses I'm not about to say it was absolutely everyone else's fault except my own.
I could be wrong here and that mistake might hurt Town. That's part of playing the game. If I make a mistake that ends up costing Town, I'll own it.
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@Danielle
If I may, here is some constructive criticism for how you can get town to join you:
- Don't be so argumentative - you'll alienate the people you're arguing with and everyone else will just tune you out;
- Don't be so defensive - you're not being attacked nearly as much as you think you are and it puts focus on you, taking it away from other people;
- Stop giving a shit about being right - this is a game where a it's a job of a significant part of the player base to undermine you. Stop taking everything as a personal insult and move on.
- Find common ground - If you want scum lynched you need help from other people. So instead of acting like a person that has it all figured out and everyone should just follow your infallible lead, act like a person that needs help from other people. Because you do and you can't win without it.
- Remember that it is a team game - You're on a team, part of an affiliation. You win as a team. You lose as a team. Coming out and saying nothing was your fault and it was everyone else is being a poor team member and is poor sportsmanship.
Uno reverse card, I see. Nice move.
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@Speedrace
Besides the behavioral stuff, the fact that Drafter said he has a role that mafia can have means mafia had ALL the incentive in the world to kill him because the roles fitting that description are all very powerful for town. Given the fact that he didn't die, either scum didn't bother reading the DP/are bad players, or drafter himself is scum
Lol, my role is not very powerful for town.
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@whiteflame
Frankly, if you feel so strongly that a push for Lunatic's claim is warranted but mine is not, I haven't seen a good reason for it anywhere beyond what is at best a weak statement about "corruption" not fitting as a crime, which doesn't seem particularly persuasive to me
Lunatic claiming a non-crime where all Town are crimes isn't a weak reason. It's a strong reason. He's lying about his character. Why real question isn't why that concerns me but why it doesn't concern you.
Why are you pushing so hard on him, specifically, when all you have is a technicality about a character claim, especially when we don't have any more information about other roles? Also, where was this in the last DP?
Get his full claim and I'll tell you.
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@whiteflame
And I'll happily explain why - once he claims.
It's simple, really: I will readily and fully claim after Lunatic full claims. If my claim is the result you want, then getting Lunatic to claim first should be your course of action. If you don't pressure him for a claim, then you must not really want my claim.
And I repeat: that is the only way I am claiming. No amount of votes for me will get me to claim before Lunatic. I am shutting down, conclusively, that path. Voting me will do nothing. If you desire my claim, voting me is not going to get you it. I will absolutely take my claim to the grave if Lunatic doesn't claim.
Now, you say you have some vague sense of distrust over this and on that alone are being contrary. You don't trust me so you're going to do the opposite of what I'm saying. Nice. Well, get over it. What's the fear? That I'm third party whos win-con is: "Get lunatic to claim first?" You have no objective reason to prefer my claim over Lunatic's and even if you do prefer my claim, I've explained how to get it and how not to get it.
So what's the most rational course of action for you?
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And, frankly, the whole idea that people behave one way as scum and another way is town, over game to game to game. Isn't anything that has ever been established. It's more of a old wives tale for Mafia than anything else.
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@whiteflame
I didn't say anything about you looking scummy. Defensive?
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@whiteflame
Also, what I'm doing now isn't anything I've done in the past few games.
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@whiteflame
You admit your reasons are weak and pretty much arbitrary. You say you're just doing this generic activity. So it shouldn't really matter to you whether it's pressuring me versus someone else. The fact that you're focusing on me does not align with your stated motivations.
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