Total posts: 8,696
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@Greyparrot
You can have whatever opinion on what the Schumer quote "YOU WILL PAY THE PRICE" means, and I would never call for your censorship you constitutional 1st amendment hater.
Straw Man. I did not suggest that GP does not retain a constitutional right to invent fake news headlines as a substitute for rational argument, only that he has a responsibility to his fellow DARTers not to manufacture inciteful bullshit and pretend to report it as news- a responsibility that GP regularly fails to live up to. GP should apologize and request that his post be removed as false.
There is no honest analysis of the statement, "you will pay the price" that implies revolution or weaponry. Those aspects were invented by GP out of whole cloth and may not be justified as reasonable opinion.
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@Greyparrot
Here is the exact quote which, we should note, GP carefully fails to cite:
"We know what’s at stake. Over the last three years, women’s reproductive rights have come under attack in a way we haven’t seen in modern history. From Louisiana to Missouri to Texas, Republican legislatures are waging a war on women, all women, and they’re taking away fundamental rights. I want to tell you, Gorsuch, I want to tell you, Kavanaugh, you have released the whirlwind and you will pay the price. You won’t know what hit you if you go forward with these awful decisions. The bottom line is very simple. We will stand with the American people. We will stand with American women. We will tell President Trump and Senate Republicans, who have stacked the court with right-wing ideologues, that you’re going to be gone in November, and you will never be able to do what you’re trying to do now ever, ever again. You hear that over there on the far right? You’re gone in November."
-Chuck Schumer at a March 4th pro-abortion rally.
Let's be sure to notice that the speech only seems threatening when stripped of context:
“I want to tell you, Gorsuch. I want to tell you, Kavanaugh. You have released the whirlwind, and you will pay the price. You won’t know what hit you if you go forward with these awful decisions.”
Schumer clarified that context from the Senate floor just a few hours later:
"Now, I should not have used the words I used yesterday. They didn't come out the way I intended to," Schumer said Thursday morning. "My point was that there would be political consequences, political consequences for President (Donald) Trump and Senate Republicans if the Supreme Court, with the newly confirmed justices, stripped away a woman's right to choose."
Which GP irresponsibly reports as "open armed revolt against the SCOTUS."
GP should justify his insertion of "revolt" and particularly "armed" into the story. If GP can't show where Chuck Schumer called for the use of weapons against the Supreme Court, then GP must:
- apologize to his fellow DARTers for authoring fake news and
- request that the Mods take down this partisan accusation as inflammatory, defamatory and false.
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I don't think that's crazy, Warren is far more moderate than her reputation. She was a moderate Republican until 1996. She served in Obama's administration as a special advisor to the president like Biden and like Biden she is a member of the Democratic Party.
I doubt Biden would offer Warren VP for the very reasons you stated about age- the VP slot needs to be a viable presidential candidate for 2024 because the odds are very good across a number of different scenarios that Biden will single-term if he wins.
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@Lunatic
I volunteer to be a judge.
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PRO. Vegan, vegetarian, meatless Mondays, whatever. Humans have to spend way more calories making meat than making fruits and veg. Meat adds to greenhouse gases, plants subtract. The number of recent epidemics that likely originate from meat-eating (including coronavirus) should also give us pause.
Humans will eventually adapt to meat-free diets but whether we adapt for common sense reasons or adapt because we ate all the animals is yet to be seen.
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@drafterman
No insight. Total crapshoot. Drafter, I will follow your lead
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@Barney
which game was that?You can hammer me as I was your pick for today. Since I’m town I obviously won’t do that myself (it’s anti town). But stand by my history of surrendering as mafia to die with dignity when it’s hopeless.
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@ethang5
I listened to Song of Solomon.And your thoughts?
Traditional Judaism interprets the Song of Solomon as an allegory for God and Israel, traditional Christianity sees the speaker, the beloved, as God's bride, the Church. I think Bush dismisses both interpretations as bullshit:
Don't want your bullshit
Just want your sexuality
This is no King Solomon singing about Israel, Bush is saying, this is a woman singing about sex
Just take any line
"Comfort me with apples
For I am sick of love
His left hand is under my head
And his right hand
Doth embrace me"
This is the Song of Solomon
Here's a woman singing
Bush name checks Isolde (King Arthur) and Marion (Robin Hood), two medieval romantic woman, famous beauties kept in castles who must be freed. I think Bush sees the beloved in the Song of Solomon as similar figure- passive, objectified, beautiful.
Sharon Olds has a beautiful interpretation of the meaning of the Lilies:
I didn't know what it meant that he was born
in the beauty of the lilies, maybe bulbs that had been
planted around the timbers of the stable,
or the myrrh king came after the birth, and he was
born in the beauty. Maybe on the longest
night of the winter he was somehow born
on Easter--born risen. I loved that he was
born across the sea, as if born into the whole
width of the air, between here
and that holy place, the barn under
the meteor. They didn't talk about the hay,
or the water-trough, or the blood, or the milk,
or the manure, with its straw-seeds inside it, but sometimes
they showed him in her arms, almost nursing,
the light around his head like a third
breast in the scene, and they said he was born
with a glory in his bosom--he had his own
bosom, as if he was his own mother
as well as his own father. And she wore
blue, always unmarked, she never wore
fleur-de-lys, and yet he was born
in the beauty of the lilies. This morning, when I looked
At a lily, just beginning to open,
its long, slender pouch tipped
with soft, curling-back lips, and I could peek just
slightly in, and see the clasping
interior, the cache of pollen,
and smell the extreme sweetness, I thought they were
shyly saying Mary's body,
he came from the blossom of a woman, he was born
in the beauty of her lily.
-Sharon Olds
I am pretty deaf...Really? Can you tell me about it?
I got the mumps, measles, and a series of incredibly painful ear infections when I was 4. I was a quiet kid so nobody really noticed that I'd lost all hearing in my right ear until I went to kindergarten. My left ear has gradually declined over time. So while I can turn up the volume and get most of Kate Bush's song, I can't hear much in a lot of situations- bars & restaurants, etc. I spend a lot of energy reconstructing what people say in my head and trying to pull meaning out of context- so I am interested in what people say and how they say it. So I'm bad at hearing music but I'm very interested in lyrics.
I took 3 years of French in high school.Americans don't learn foreign languages in school, so I'm thinking you aren't American.
I am American. My public high school in the Denver suburbs was gigantic (5,000 students) with a national reputation. 2 years of foreign language was the minimum, the options I remember were Spanish, Italian, German, Russian, Mandarin, and Latin. I sort of wish now I had taken Latin although Spanish would have been the most pragmatic choice.
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VI
Although I do not hope to turn again
Although I do not hope
Although I do not hope to turn
Wavering between the profit and the loss
In this brief transit where the dreams cross
The dreamcrossed twilight between birth and dying
(Bless me father) though I do not wish to wish these things
From the wide window towards the granite shore
The white sails still fly seaward, seaward flying
Unbroken wings
And the lost heart stiffens and rejoices
In the lost lilac and the lost sea voices
And the weak spirit quickens to rebel
For the bent golden-rod and the lost sea smell
Quickens to recover
The cry of quail and the whirling plover
And the blind eye creates
The empty forms between the ivory gates
And smell renews the salt savour of the sandy earth
This is the time of tension between dying and birth
The place of solitude where three dreams cross
Between blue rocks
But when the voices shaken from the yew-tree drift away
Let the other yew be shaken and reply.
Blessèd sister, holy mother, spirit of the fountain, spirit
of the garden,
Suffer us not to mock ourselves with falsehood
Teach us to care and not to care
Teach us to sit still
Even among these rocks,
Our peace in His will
And even among these rocks
Sister, mother
And spirit of the river, spirit of the sea,
Suffer me not to be separated
And let my cry come unto Thee.
"Ash Wedensday"
-TS Eliot
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V
If the lost word is lost, if the spent word is spent
If the unheard, unspoken
Word is unspoken, unheard;
Still is the unspoken word, the Word unheard,
The Word without a word, the Word within
The world and for the world;
And the light shone in darkness and
Against the Word the unstilled world still whirled
About the centre of the silent Word.
O my people, what have I done unto thee.
Where shall the word be found, where will the word
Resound? Not here, there is not enough silence
Not on the sea or on the islands, not
On the mainland, in the desert or the rain land,
For those who walk in darkness
Both in the day time and in the night time
The right time and the right place are not here
No place of grace for those who avoid the face
No time to rejoice for those who walk among noise and deny
the voice
Will the veiled sister pray for
Those who walk in darkness, who chose thee and oppose thee,
Those who are torn on the horn between season and season,
time and time, between
Hour and hour, word and word, power and power, those who wait
In darkness? Will the veiled sister pray
For children at the gate
Who will not go away and cannot pray:
Pray for those who chose and oppose
O my people, what have I done unto thee.
Will the veiled sister between the slender
Yew trees pray for those who offend her
And are terrified and cannot surrender
And affirm before the world and deny between the rocks
In the last desert before the last blue rocks
The desert in the garden the garden in the desert
Of drouth, spitting from the mouth the withered apple-seed.
O my people.
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IV
Who walked between the violet and the violet
Whe walked between
The various ranks of varied green
Going in white and blue, in Mary's colour,
Talking of trivial things
In ignorance and knowledge of eternal dolour
Who moved among the others as they walked,
Who then made strong the fountains and made fresh the springs
Made cool the dry rock and made firm the sand
In blue of larkspur, blue of Mary's colour,
Sovegna vos
Here are the years that walk between, bearing
Away the fiddles and the flutes, restoring
One who moves in the time between sleep and waking, wearing
White light folded, sheathing about her, folded.
The new years walk, restoring
Through a bright cloud of tears, the years, restoring
With a new verse the ancient rhyme. Redeem
The time. Redeem
The unread vision in the higher dream
While jewelled unicorns draw by the gilded hearse.
The silent sister veiled in white and blue
Between the yews, behind the garden god,
Whose flute is breathless, bent her head and signed but spoke
no word
But the fountain sprang up and the bird sang down
Redeem the time, redeem the dream
The token of the word unheard, unspoken
Till the wind shake a thousand whispers from the yew
And after this our exile
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III
At the first turning of the second stair
I turned and saw below
The same shape twisted on the banister
Under the vapour in the fetid air
Struggling with the devil of the stairs who wears
The deceitul face of hope and of despair.
At the second turning of the second stair
I left them twisting, turning below;
There were no more faces and the stair was dark,
Damp, jaggèd, like an old man's mouth drivelling, beyond
repair,
Or the toothed gullet of an agèd shark.
At the first turning of the third stair
Was a slotted window bellied like the figs's fruit
And beyond the hawthorn blossom and a pasture scene
The broadbacked figure drest in blue and green
Enchanted the maytime with an antique flute.
Blown hair is sweet, brown hair over the mouth blown,
Lilac and brown hair;
Distraction, music of the flute, stops and steps of the mind
over the third stair,
Fading, fading; strength beyond hope and despair
Climbing the third stair.
Lord, I am not worthy
Lord, I am not worthy
but speak the word only.
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II
Lady, three white leopards sat under a juniper-tree
In the cool of the day, having fed to sateity
On my legs my heart my liver and that which had been
contained
In the hollow round of my skull. And God said
Shall these bones live? shall these
Bones live? And that which had been contained
In the bones (which were already dry) said chirping:
Because of the goodness of this Lady
And because of her loveliness, and because
She honours the Virgin in meditation,
We shine with brightness. And I who am here dissembled
Proffer my deeds to oblivion, and my love
To the posterity of the desert and the fruit of the gourd.
It is this which recovers
My guts the strings of my eyes and the indigestible portions
Which the leopards reject. The Lady is withdrawn
In a white gown, to contemplation, in a white gown.
Let the whiteness of bones atone to forgetfulness.
There is no life in them. As I am forgotten
And would be forgotten, so I would forget
Thus devoted, concentrated in purpose. And God said
Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only
The wind will listen. And the bones sang chirping
With the burden of the grasshopper, saying
Lady of silences
Calm and distressed
Torn and most whole
Rose of memory
Rose of forgetfulness
Exhausted and life-giving
Worried reposeful
The single Rose
Is now the Garden
Where all loves end
Terminate torment
Of love unsatisfied
The greater torment
Of love satisfied
End of the endless
Journey to no end
Conclusion of all that
Is inconclusible
Speech without word and
Word of no speech
Grace to the Mother
For the Garden
Where all love ends.
Under a juniper-tree the bones sang, scattered and shining
We are glad to be scattered, we did little good to each
other,
Under a tree in the cool of day, with the blessing of sand,
Forgetting themselves and each other, united
In the quiet of the desert. This is the land which ye
Shall divide by lot. And neither division nor unity
Matters. This is the land. We have our inheritance.
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I
Because I do not hope to turn again
Because I do not hope
Because I do not hope to turn
Desiring this man's gift and that man's scope
I no longer strive to strive towards such things
(Why should the agèd eagle stretch its wings?)
Why should I mourn
The vanished power of the usual reign?
Because I do not hope to know
The infirm glory of the positive hour
Because I do not think
Because I know I shall not know
The one veritable transitory power
Because I cannot drink
There, where trees flower, and springs flow, for there is
nothing again
Because I know that time is always time
And place is always and only place
And what is actual is actual only for one time
And only for one place
I rejoice that things are as they are and
I renounce the blessèd face
And renounce the voice
Because I cannot hope to turn again
Consequently I rejoice, having to construct something
Upon which to rejoice
And pray to God to have mercy upon us
And pray that I may forget
These matters that with myself I too much discuss
Too much explain
Because I do not hope to turn again
Let these words answer
For what is done, not to be done again
May the judgement not be too heavy upon us
Because these wings are no longer wings to fly
But merely vans to beat the air
The air which is now thoroughly small and dry
Smaller and dryer than the will
Teach us to care and not to care Teach us to sit still.
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death
Pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
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@Mikal
I assume you are missing that DP2 ended a couple of hours ago in a lynch of Speed.
We are now in DP3.
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My reads:
2. Oromagi VANILLA
X. Speedrace MECHANIC
TOWN
6. drafterman VANILLA
3. Supadudz VANILLA
5. Duhhamburglar VANILLA
7. Ragnar VANILLA
SCUM
X. Waterphoenix GUNSMITH
VTL Rangnar
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@Mikal
still dead, see post #37I would also say speed, but speed was actively on during that drafter lynch and didn't hammer when he had every reason to want to hammer
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@ethang5
I listened to Song of Solomon.
I took 3 years of French in high school. I am pretty deaf and so my pronunciation is atrocious but I can read at about "Le Petit Prince" level
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@Mikal
Speed (just because this is utility, he contributes nothing to even look at. So it's a shot at hitting mafia when it would be near Impossible to gain reads either way )
Speed is dead. He contributes nothing because he is dead. He is not mafia because we killed him a few minutes ago and he turned up town.
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@Barney
I think it was yesterday he said he had been sabotaged, which I am not sure if people would get a notice about it (nor am I sure anyone would mention it, much like Speed, Drafter, and I have not mentioned the now pointless notifications of where the mechanic and vest have gone).
Post #7, DP2: I asked if anybody got a report of sabotage.
I just noticed that Supadudz starts with the letter S....the exact same letter that begins the word scum!VTL SupadudzDid anybody get any report about sabotage?
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I just noticed that Supadudz starts with the letter S....the exact same letter that begins the word scum!
VTL Supadudz
Did anybody get any report about sabotage?
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@WaterPhoenix
If u r town then u r messing up by not claiming
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@Alec
The person has I think 56 wins and no ties or losses. How did this happen?
Honestly, I am as surprised as anybody. I don't have any kind of debate background. I took a great course in college call "Language, Logic, and Persuasion for Writers" which represents 100% of my studies in logic or philosophy. I did 70 or so debates on DDO which was very educational re: online debates. I'm sure it is pretty evident that I'm no smarter or better educated than the average debater on this site.
RatMan's theory is "[I] got [my] wins by semantic and BoP abuse entirely," which I think is a bit of an overstatement. Dr.Franklin's theory is that there is a secret liberal conspiracy between top voters, which is not true since there is no vote specific communication or agreement between us but I do think that there are certain liberal or conservative positions/topics that make me more likely to vote and that my liberal bias probably informs that vote even when I try hard to keep an open mind about the better argument. Assuming others do the same, there is some element of truth to Dr.Franklin's complaint. Dr.Franklin's previous theory was just that I am a "tryhard" and I think that is probably closer to the truth. If I can't be smarter than the competition, perhaps I can simply outwork them. Anyway, here's my thinking about winning DART debates:
- The number one factor is forfeits. In 57 debates I have never forfeited once- a characteristic largely shared by winning debaters. Any regular voter on this site will confirm that the majority of wins on this site aren't won so much as lost by forfeitures.
- Before accepting a debate, study your opponent's record (on DART and DDO). If the debater
- Demonstrates debate experience
- Makes arguments in a highly organized or persuasive fashion
- seems particularly knowledgeable about the topic, or
- never forfeits
then don't accept those debates.
- Arguments are less than 50% of the possible voter points awarded. You can actually outargue your opponent every time and still have a losing record (look at Virtuoso's debates for an example of this).
- Make a point of being nicer to your opponent than your opponent is to you (if only the forums followed this rule). If your opponent goes low, do not retaliate. Wait until the final round and then coolly request a point.
- Make a point of having more sources than your opponent. Wikipedia is the finest artifact the internet has ever produced, use Wikipedia liberally for the conventional wisdom on any topic. ONLY use sources that rate very high or high on https://mediabiasfactcheck.com Peer reviewed scholarship typically offers the best evidence and most sophisticated thinking on any point. I spend a totally unreasonable amount of research time trying to understand technical papers way over my head.
- Using an opponent's sources against her is a major advantage. Scour every opposing source for arguments that support your case.
- I'm actually pretty bad at re-reading my arguments for spelling and grammar. The more I re-read my stuff, the less confident I become in my choices and I get lost in (mostly counter-productive) rewrites, but my first draft grammar is pretty good and spellchecker gets the majority of the misspellings. Nevertheless, I'd recommend that you re-read your arguments for legibility and comprehension. Your argument is useless if voters can't read it- make a point of demonstrating better spelling and grammar than your opponent.
- If there are serious grammatical or spelling errors in the title, take the debate.
- Read and use the DART and DDO debate guides and advice. I like Ragnar's debate style best so I go back to his guide most often.
- If you are making a debate, always define terms, concepts and BoP to your advantage. This is the instigator's main advantage. A contender's main advantages are opponent selection and the last word- which far outweighs the instigator's advantage. The best way to counter this advantage is to set terms that no superior debater would accept or at least terms that must be objected to, cutting into the opponent's word count.
- I suspect logicae would object to this tactic based on a recent debate definition: "BOTH sides have a burden to prove their positions. (I have noticed this kind of burden swinging in far too many debates. It is a tactic to merely win a debate, not to find truth.)" As a voter, I have awarded many wins to debaters who I knew were advocating wrong and even dishonest positions based on the strength of the argument. The pursuit of truth is always admirable but offers little advantage in winning debates.
- Personally, I think the notion of dual burdens is bullshit. Debates were traditionally practice for law and politics. In law and politics, the question is always binary- pass/fail, guilty/ not guilty. Dual burdens suggests that the instigator must prove one thesis and the contender must develop a second, opposing thesis and prove that which creates four possible outcomes-
- /A proven B unproven/,
- /A unproven B proven/,
- /A proven B proven/,
- /A unproven B unproven/.
- Many theses don't have a true opposite or have multiple true opposites. Furthermore, the opposing thesis is almost never explicitly stated. The contender is left proving some ill-defined negation. Dual burdens makes for fuzzy, unfocused debates with much cloudier outcomes. It's like saying the state must prove the defendant guilty and also the defendant must prove himself innocent.
- A good debater always suggests that the other guy has the entire burden of proof while also arguing as if the burden is entirely hers to prove.
- Any debater who instigates a debate but then fails to set terms in the long description or R1 has handed the contender all of the main advantages. Look for debaters who operate this way and exploit those advantages.
- Try hard to be interesting for readers. Unfortunately, most people will never read your debate but you can make a friend of the few who do by trying to write appealing, creative arguments. Try hard to be original- I try to list all the arguments I can think of before I start researching other people's arguments. Typically, other people's arguments are better informed than mine but an original argument supported by the facts is more satisfying to write and forces the opponent to think of an original defense.
- Depending on the debate, it usually helps to give voters a concise reason for voting for you at the end of the debate. Voters are required to defend their votes so giving them a plausible reason or two they can cite or paraphrase while voting for you makes their job easier and their vote that much more likely.
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@drafterman
It's water.
you sound confident. Why water?
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We have no information roles and everybody can claim VANILLA with reasonable credibility. We don't really have any levers for catching scum
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I think drafter's arg for killing the gunman is compelling. I think we have to assume that scum has the gun right now (or else they would have spoken up) and so gun will only be passed between scum until one dies.
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@WaterPhoenix
he does as he's told or he gets lynched
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If anybody other than specified is killed, Ragnar gets lynched DP2
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@drafterman
Sorry, but telling the mafia who exactly is the mechanic is (so they can kill him) and who has a vest (so they can avoid killing them) is completely dumb.
If the vest-maker makes Ragnar a vest NP1 he is bulletproof. If the gun-maker makes Ragnar a gun NP1, we have no need of a mechanic and we can instruct Ragnar exactly who he must kill. If anybody other than specified is killed, Ragnar gets killed. At the end of Ragnar's NP, he gives gun, vest, and mechanic to a pre-agreed upon player who follows the same process.
UNVOTE for time to discuss
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2. Oromagi VANILLA
TOWN
4. Waterphoenix
1. Speedrace VANILLA
6. drafterman
3. Supadudz VANILLA
5. Duhhamburglar
7. Ragnar MECHANIC
SCUM
All town should full claim DP1
UVC
VTNL- 2/4 - Rangnar, Oro
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UNVOTEThe fact is that a random player has the gun. I've advised them not to kill one certain person tonight, because that would destroy the mechanic ability.
VTNL
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@ethang5
Well there is a lot of overlap to be found between the efficacy of prayer generally and the efficacy of Christian prayer. My understanding is that studies of prayer generally range from no effect to beneficial. That is, I'm not aware of any study that identifies any real harm in prayer and there are plenty of studies that find that prayer is pretty good for promoting healing, maintaining a positive outlook, visualizing goals, re-affirming values, etc.
I doubt that most of the science cares much about denomination but there are plenty of surveys of studies that focus on Christian prayer
I think good answers to the questions you ask can be found in these studies although the answers likely vary from study to study.
Do you see any way such an experiment can be done where the results would be scientifically valid? Please, if you do, tell us.
Wikipedia gives us few examples:
A study published in 2008 used Eysenck's dimensional model of personality based on neuroticism and psychoticism to assess the mental health of high school students based on their self-reported frequency of prayer. For students both in Catholic and Protestant schools, higher levels of prayer were associated with better mental health as measured by lower psychoticism scores. However, among pupils attending Catholic schools, higher levels of prayer were also associated with higher neuroticism scores.[12]Many accept that prayer can aid in recovery due to psychological and physical benefits. It has also been suggested that if a person knows that he or she is being prayed for it can be uplifting and increase morale, thus aiding recovery. (See Subject-expectancy effect.) Many studies have suggested that prayer can reduce physical stress, regardless of the god or gods a person prays to, and this may be true for many reasons.According to a study by Centra State Hospital, "the psychological benefits of prayer may help reduce stress and anxiety, promote a more positive outlook, and strengthen the will to live."[13] Other practices such as Yoga, T'ai chi, and Meditation may also have a positive impact on physical and psychological health.A 2001 study by Meisenhelder and Chandler analyzed data obtained from 1,421 Presbyterian pastors surveyed by mail and found that their self-reported frequency of prayer was well-correlated with their self-perception of health and vitality.[14] This research methodology has inherent problems with self-selection, selection bias, and residual confounding, and the authors admitted that the direction of perceived prayer and health relationships "remains inconclusive due to the limits of the correlational research design".
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@ethang5
oh, yeah. I love that voice. "Flying Birds" w/ Peter Gabriel & Waking the Witch
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@Mikal
Are you just retarded or am I missing somethingboth things can be trueNm. Again just glanced. Just picked up on the part where mafia could be those roles
see?
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@ethang5
Do you know of any way to run a prayer experiment using the scientific method?
still waiting for you to define what you are talking about. What is a "prayer experiment?" Please cite a reliable source or link to some examples.
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both things can be trueAre you just retarded or am I missing something
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@Mikal
reprinting sign-ups for Ham's benefit
Roles:Town-1 gunsmith. The gunsmith will be selected randomly, and HAS to pass a gun to someone each night. The gun MUST be used by the person receiving the gun. The gun can be passed to mafia, but is the only night killing method. After using the gun the player will become the new gunsmith and must select who to give a gun to the following night phase.1 vest maker. The vest-maker will be selected randomly, and HAS to pass a 1x bulletproof vest each night. The vest is a 1 time use, and expires after the night phase it is received. The receiver of the vest becomes the new vest maker, and must pass the vest the following night phase.1 Mechanic. The mechanic will be selected randomly, and HAS to select a person to fix each night. If a vest or gun has been tampered with, the mechanic will fix the item. The receiver of the mechanic ability will become the new mechanic, and must pass the ability on the following night phase.Mafia-1 Saboteur. The Saboteur is the only role in the game that is static and cannot be passed. This role will be the mafia's only ability, barring they aren't given a gun or vest. The Saboteur can choose a player to sabotage at night. If that player received a vest, it will not work. If that player owns a gun, the gun will backfire and kill the shooter. The mechanic is the only counter to this role.Gunsmith, vestmaker, and mechanic will be chosen at the start via RNG, meaning yes the mafia can potentially start out with one or all three of these roles, so starting out as one of these is not town confirmation. If someone dies as any of these roles, the role is permanently removed from the game and cannot be passed anymore.Anyone interested? I think 7 would be fun for this. If we get seven, I will make 2 mafia vs 5 town, if we get only 5 I will do 1 mafia vs 4 town.
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@ethang5
I'm not really a bicker, bicker back and forth kind of poster. If you want to have a discussion about the scientific validity of a particular type of experiment, you need to provide at least one example of what you are talking about. If your argument is only "science can't do god" then I'll pass.
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I am VANILLA town.
2. Oromagi VANILLA
TOWN
4. Waterphoenix
1. Speedrace
6. drafterman
3. Supadudz VANILLA
5. Duhhamburglar
7. Ragnar
SCUM
The best reason I can think of for outing the mechanic first thing is to manufacture town cred. Duhhamburglar also ranks low because scum is always making excuses for why they will be inactive this game.
UNVOTE
VTL Rangnar
UVC
VTNL- (1/4) Rangnar
Ragnar- (1/4) Oro
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