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@Incel-chud
explain why Russia is so popularly supported that the region is supporting rebel fighters even before the Russian's coming to liberate the region.
The price of coal crashed. Lots of first generation Russian immigrants.
. We can't ask questions like why is .02% of the population, representing 90% of the power structure.
Well the statistic is ridiculously fake so the only reason to ask the question is if you hope to be Putin's butt boy some day. Jawohl!
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@Incel-chud
-->@oromagiIf the truth is on your side, why would you need to do those things, let's think of possible motives of sensationalism and propaganda. When we look at the possible motives they are as follows1. get people to believe your narrative, propaganda needs to be done here, only if you have no real evidence to back up your position, otherwise you would just do in depth analysis and share it2. sensationalism itself is a lie, it means making something more exciting than it actually is. it's the definition of a lie.
- Jesus told parables to tell his narrative in the absence of any real evidence to back up his position. Jesus sensationalized his objection to merchants in the temple by whipping the moneymen and overturning their tables.
- God engaged in sensational propaganda when his giant ghost hand wrote on the wall at Belshazzar's feast. MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.
Using your very silly, insanely absolutist formula, you are calling God and Jesus liars.
[Putin] is just trying to do what is right by his people.
Objectively false. Putin, the richest man on Earth, officially reports for taxes a new worth of $130,000 from this fabulous palace on the Black Sea:
Russia has the highest infant mortality rate of any developed country. Putin's estimated legal tax obligation alone could triple or quadruple the Russian budget for infant healthcare.
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The lesson of Munich, in international relations, refers to the appeasement of Adolf Hitler at the Munich Conference in September 1938. To avoid war, France and the United Kingdom permitted Nazi Germany to incorporate the Sudetenland. Earlier acts of appeasement included the Allied inaction towards the remilitarization of the Rhineland and the Anschluss of Austria, while subsequent ones included inaction to the First Vienna Award, the annexation of the remainder of Czech Lands to form the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, as well as the 1939 German ultimatum to Lithuania forcing it to cede the Klaipėda Region. The policy of appeasement underestimated Hitler's ambitions by believing that enough concessions would secure a lasting peace. Today, the agreement is widely regarded as a failed act of appeasement toward Germany, and a diplomatic triumph for Hitler. It facilitated the German takeover of Czechoslovakia and caused Hitler to believe that the Western Allies would not risk war over Poland the following year, an assessment openly expressed in his famous quote: “I saw my enemies in Munich, and they are worms
Putin has been invading Ukraine in slow motion since Ukraine pushed out Putin's puppet government in 2014.
Putin invaded Georgia using similar justifications. If successful in the Ukraine, Putin has already made the same justifications for absorbing Belarus and Lithuania.
History tells us that Putin will seek more or less continual expansion until he is stopped.
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@Incel-chud
It was literally the first Russian territory.
Kiev is one of the oldest cities in Eastern Europe- old than Moscow or St. Petersburg by centuries. Kiev was an established Slavic city-state when the Varangians were still seasonal traders. Those Rus people learned their Cyrillic letters from Ukrainians. Those Vikings became Eastern Orthodox Christians because Ukrainians baptized them. Russian culture is a younger sub-culture of Ukrainian culture.
The parts of Ukraine that Putin recognized as independent territories, literally formed a revolution against the Ukraine, because they felt more Russian than Ukranian, which makes sense because that portion of Ukraine is Russian speaking Russian people.
- Better than 85% of Russians in the Donbass are recent immigrants, arriving after three major genocides of the native Khazars and Ukrainians in the '30's and '40's, two of those genocides perpetrated by Russians. The ethnic Russians popularly supported the 1991 Declaration of Independence from Russia but in Soviet times, the Russians were a privileged minority before Independence and so equality meant some decline for that group. Still, ethic Russians have always had the option of returning to their native country and we should agree that seeking the advantages of return to a less equal society is not a quality to be admired or justified in any demographic group, recently immigrated or not.
Also if a government is 90% Jewish like the Ukranian one, but 00.2% of the population is Jews, it's pretty obvious what is going on as well.
yeah, yeah- seig heil, etc.
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@ILikePie5
Countries and people have been fighting for thousands of years. Why should we waste our money and suffer economically trying to “protect Ukraine.” Everyone knows that if Russia tried to invade NATO, or another allied country of the US, they’d get nuked.
"Europeans who remember their history understand better than most that there is no security, no safety, in the appeasement of evil."
-Ronald Reagan
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@Incel-chud
P1- honest people do not engage in sensationalism or propaganda
False. I am an incredibly honest fellow and I engage in sensationalism and propaganda all the time. Honest Abe Lincoln was so damn honest they called him honest Abe..... Did Lincoln engage in sensationalism and propaganda? Of course he did.
Your first premise fails. Therefore your conclusion "western media is dishonest" remains an unproved generalization.
p4- A lie neccessarily means the opposite is true
If every lie necessarily means the opposite is true than it must first be true that every lie has an opposite but that's not so. Not every lie has some perfect and obvious semantic mirror image.
c2- The media is stating that Putin is basically Hitler, so the opposite must be true
case in point. you fail to even state what the opposite of the metaphor "Putin is Hitler" might be.
- Putin is Gandhi?
- HItler is Putin?
- Putin is Churchill
Your reasoning is so tortured you should shoot it now to prevent further suffering.
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@RationalMadman
-->@Incel-chudWow you are a Putin apologist, imagine if you were the website president at this point.
I wouldn't characterize Chud as a "Putin apologist" so much as a "sloppy bottom for any strongman who ever killed a Jew." Chud doesn't do democracy, he believes we should wait around for our marching orders from what he call the "great men of history." So long as Putin is killing the right sorts of people, Chud is eager to please him.
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@Incel-chud
-->@oromagiIf Putin is anti debate, why is the Western press refusing to address his arguments and instead sensationalizing things and seem to be speaking to the lowest common denominator?
Literally every major news outlet in the western world addressed Putin's argument within the hour.
Just try reading any of them legally in Russia.
Why is Russia attacking Ukraine? Here are 5 reasons Putin and others have given for the invasion
Kelsey Vlamis
Feb 24, 2022, 8:55 PM
Russian forces attacked Ukraine early Thursday morning, launching a large-scale and unprovoked invasion that was feared for weeks.
The Russian military entered Ukraine from several directions, with troops headed toward its capital, Kyiv, and attacked with airstrikes and shelling. Ukrainian authorities said dozens of troops on both sides and some Ukrainian civilians were killed amid the fighting.
President Joe Biden and other Western leaders have criticized Russian President Vladimir Putin, calling his country's actions a violation of international law. On Thursday afternoon, Biden announced new, harsher sanctions against Russia that he said were designed "to maximize the long-term impact on Russia and minimize the impact on the United States and our allies."
Here are some reasons Putin has given for why Russia invaded Ukraine — some of which are based on falsehoods — along with what the US and NATO have said about his motivations.
- Concern over NATO's eastward expansion
Putin has expressed concern over the expansion of NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, into Eastern Europe and former Soviet Republics, especially Ukraine.
NATO is a political and military alliance that dates back to 1949 and consists of 30 member countries, including the US, Canada, the UK, France, Belgium, and many other European nations. NATO membership is open to any European country that meets its criteria. The alliance has said Ukraine is among three nations that are considered aspiring members.
Putin has criticized NATO for expanding eastward since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. He has said NATO enlisting nations on Russia's borders represents a provocation, though NATO insists it is a defensive alliance and not a threat to Russia.
In a speech Thursday morning, Putin said the invasion of Ukraine was an act of self-defense against NATO expansion.
- Putin baselessly claims Ukraine is committing genocide against ethnic Russians
Putin has also accused Ukraine of committing genocide and called its government a Nazi regime, claims for which there is no evidence.
Earlier this month, Putin claimed genocide was being committed against ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, particularly in the Donbas region, where Kremlin-backed rebels have been fighting with Ukrainian forces since 2014.
On Monday, Putin recognized Donetsk and Luhansk, two separatist regions in the Donbas, as independent states and ordered Russian troops in for a "peacekeeping" operation, a move that was widely seen as a pretext for war.
In his Thursday speech announcing the invasion, Putin again repeated the claims of genocide, saying he was seeking the "denazification" of Ukraine, a country whose democratically elected leader, President Volodymyr Zelensky, is Jewish.
- Putin has also falsely asserted that Ukraine isn't a real country.
In a lengthy speech Monday, Putin claimed Ukraine wasn't a real country: "Ukraine has never had its own authentic statehood. There has never been a sustainable statehood in Ukraine."
He argued Ukraine was created by the Soviet Union under its first leader, Vladimir Lenin, despite overwhelming evidence of Ukrainian culture and history that predates the Soviet Union. Putin also insisted that Ukraine is part of Russia.
"Let me emphasize once again that Ukraine for us is not just a neighboring country. It is an integral part of our own history, culture, spiritual space," he said.
Putin has also incorrectly stated that Russia gave Ukraine the right to break away, when in fact, the Ukrainian people voted overwhelmingly for independence in a 1991 referendum, The Washington Post reported. For the referendum vote, 84% of eligible voters went to the polls, and more than 90% voted in favor of independence.
- Dubious concerns over nuclear weapons
After the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine voluntarily gave up the nuclear weapons in its territory in exchange for a guarantee of security by the US, the UK, and Russia.
Putin, however, has expressed concern that Ukraine has the knowledge and desire to obtain nuclear weapons, thus posing a threat to Moscow. While there is no evidence that Ukraine is trying to acquire nuclear weapons, The New York Times reported that Putin had spewed conspiracy theories to talk up the threat and use it to justify an invasion.
"If Ukraine acquires weapons of mass destruction, the situation in the world and in Europe will drastically change, especially for us, for Russia," Putin said Tuesday. "We cannot but react to this real danger, all the more so since, let me repeat, Ukraine's Western patrons may help it acquire these weapons to create yet another threat to our country."
US officials and NATO have repeatedly said there are no plans to arm Ukraine with nuclear weapons.
- Putin may want to build back a Russian empire
Another reason that some say Russia is invading Ukraine is one that Putin has never outright said: to build back an empire and restore the control Russia, or the Soviet Union, had over Europe and Asia during the Cold War.
Biden said as much Thursday in comments on Putin's invasion of Ukraine: "He has much larger ambitions than Ukraine. He wants to, in fact, reestablish the former Soviet Union. That's what this is about."
"I think that his ambitions are completely contrary to the place where the rest of the world has arrived," he added.
The US ambassador to the United Nations made similar comments earlier this week, saying Putin wanted to go back to the days of the Russian Empire, which preceded the Soviet Union.
"That includes all of Ukraine. It includes Finland. It includes Belarus and Georgia and Moldova. Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan. Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Lithuania. Latvia and Estonia. It includes parts of Poland and Turkey," Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield said at a UN Security Council meeting.
"In essence, Putin wants the world to travel back in time, to a time before the United Nations, to a time when empires ruled the world. But the rest of the world has moved forward. It is not 1919, it is 2022," she added.
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@badger
-->@oromagiCan you not admit that the dude is impressive even in a diabolical sort of way?
No. I am 100% sure that it totally sucks to live life as Putin- everybody fears you, nobody really loves you because nobody trusts you, nothing fills that absence of intimacy.
HItler took cyanide rather than stand up for what he did.
Stalin lay unconscious on the floor in a pool of his own shit for a whole day because he left orders for nobody to wake him and nobody dared risk their life by disobedience.
It sucks to be a diabolical asshole. Yes you get to drink port wine all day but what's the point if nobody want to drink it with you?
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As well as conquerors in history, Julius Caesar, Napoleon.
More like Idi Amin than Julius Caesar.
Caesar and Napoleon were soldiers- they actually stood tall on battlefields after the battle had turned against them and demonstrated their willingness to die for their countrymen. Putin's specialties are poison and blackmail. Both generals would have great contempt for a sneak-thief like Putin.
Like Putin, Caesar was the richest man in the world in his lifetime but unlike Putin, Caesar was incredibly generous with his wealth. Even some of his assassins wept with astonishment when they discovered the sums of money he left in his will to the public enhancement of Rome- literally the beginning of the white marble Rome that we think of- Caesar made that.
Napoleon was a genius of soft power- he redefined the culture, law, and society of Europe. He invented the Nation state and the French identity. If you ever wonder why everybody admires the Mona Lisa it is really only because Napoleon admired it first and every art critic in the world followed suit.
Don't compare Putin to Caesar or Napoleon. Putin is more like Hitler or Stalin- a tyrant who nobody will remember with fondness once he's gone.
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list all the potential ways that NATO is a threat to [Putin]
- NATO gives Ukraine a permeable, secured western border. Ukraine can evacuate its vulnerable populations to safety, receive armaments', reinforcements, intelligence across lines that Putin can't cut off
- NATO countries are 8% of World pop and 10% of land area but 60% of World wealth. NATO buys more than 80% of Russian exports. NATO can crash Russia's economy spectacularly by just passive means.
- NATO is generally democratic (let's call Turkey and Hungary failed democracies for the present) and the freedom and equality and wealth and success of democracy de-legitimizes and makes paltry all autocracies and Putin's particularly since he is the man who took democracy away from Russia.
- NATO unifies Europe militarily against Putin while also exposing Russia's vast, insecure eastern territories to the World's largest military
- The end the war, all NATO has to do is kill Putin. NATO surrounds Russia with tiers and tiers of political and military decision-makers who know the plan and can adapt and persevere.
- Likewise, we can be confident that only Putin has the authority to launch nuclear weapons. Take out Putin, take out the nuclear threat (short term at least). No such shortcut to victory is available to Putin.
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@FLRW
Cool, people used to say I looked like Robert Redford. Now I look like this picture of Einstein in my profile.
The older I get the more I look like Steve Bannon. Words can't express my disappointment.
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@badger
You have a very different definition of cool and big dick than I do.
- Cool men don't make themselves the richest man in the world while calling themselves leader of a population with a median income of $450/year
- Men with big dicks don't poison their competition
- Cool men don't threaten to end all life on earth if they don't get things their way
- Men with big dicks don't make professional hockey players pretend that a 5'6" 63 year old KGB agent could score 7 goals on them
- Cool men don't need to rig elections
- Men with big dicks don't award themselves peace prizes for bombing Chechnya into the 14th century
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it’s different when you are fighting back against an enemy force invading your home.
Nobody understands my position better than the Russian people themselves. Yes they lost 9 million lives to oust the last Czar but that was a far cheaper price to pay than allowing Stalin to remain in power- that cost them 30-50 million. Stalingrad remains the ultimate proof that a barely armed mass of of civilians can defeat even the largest, most modern army in the world given sufficient numbers and the will to change world history. Russians know how to do this- better than most. They've done it quite violently, they've done it quite peacefully. I am confident that the Russian people can and would and should take back their country right now.
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagiwe democrats believe that the people are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their leaders.at what point were the american people expected to display the severed heads of Dwight D. Eisenhower; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon B. Johnson; Richard M. Nixon from the tallest spire ?
For trashing the Paris Peace talks for strictly personal political gain- unnecessarily and deceptively manufacturing six more years of the Vietnam War at the cost of 25,000 dead American soldiers, I would have happily tried and convicted Nixon for treason and would have gladly superglued his severed head to the top of the Washington Monument where bald eagles were trained to peck at out his red eyes and gin-pickled tongue on live television.
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagimeans prioritize property rights over human rightsso, why do BOTH the "right" and the "left" allow "civil asset forfeiture" ?and why does the "left" cut the water and electricity to the homes of people who haven't even been convicted of a crime ?which "party" supports privacy ?
You are mistakenly trying to force modern party political divisions into a clean left/right division.
No such thing is possible.
By definition, both sides of the abortion debate are left-wing arguments.
By definition, the right to bear arms is a left-wing argument.
square pegs. round holes.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If you are fine with the world map
If you would march with a red cap
If you think oil the world's deathtrap
Putin thinks you're full of crap
If you don't think quite like the group
If global warming makes your droop
If fried by tyrant's tired old loop
Putin thinks you're full of poop
If you are not as rich as Croesus
If your cave's lit up like Socrates'
If harmony your world increases
Putin thinks you're full of feces
If you bleed red, white, and blue
and look to left for your world view
If you think Trump tried hard to coup
Putin thinks you're number two
The truth if you can handle it
never mind official writ
(FOX News will soon dismantle it)
is Putin thinks you're full of shit
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@3RU7AL
exactlywar is good for business
good for business bad for humans. Good people side with the humans every time.
This is precisely the definitional edge between right wing and left wing politics.
Right Wing, as defined in Paris at the Tennis Court Oath, means prioritize property rights over human rights (good for business)
Left Wing means prioritize human rights over property rights (good for humans)
By definition, modern Western Civilization is a Left Wing enterprise- we put humans before property rights.
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For several days after tanks rolled into Prague, there were no outward signs in Moscow of unrest. To the contrary, recalls dissident leader Andrei Sakharov, workers in factories were made to gather at meetings to show their "support" of the invasion. In an interview at his home in Moscow, Sakharov said the invasion was "clearly a shameful act," but the way most Soviets rallied around it was a sadly "typical picture of the way people embraced any action of the Soviet government."The first sign the Soviet authorities had that not all citizens here would endorse or ignore what had happened in Prague came on Aug. 25, when Bogaraz, physicist Pavel Litvinov, art critic Viktor Fainberg and five others headed toward the historic "executioner's place" on Red Square. Leading the way was a young poet, Natalya Gorbanevskaya, pushing her 3-month-old son in a baby carriage. At noon precisely, she reached into the pram and pulled out a Czechoslovak flag and banners reading, "For Your Freedom and Ours" and "Hands Off Czechoslovakia."According to Gorbanevskaya, who now lives in Paris, plainclothed KGB agents immediately closed in on the demonstration. "As they ran up to us they shouted, 'These are all dirty Jews!' and 'Beat the anti-Soviets!' " she said. "We sat quietly and offered no resistance. They tore the banners from our hands and beat Viktor Fainberg in the face until the blood flowed, breaking some of his teeth. Pavel Litvinov was beaten on the face."Just after the KGB packed the demonstrators into cars and rode off to a police station, a line of black cars sped out of the Kremlin's Spassky Gate. Among the passengers was the deposed Czechoslovak leader and reformer Alexander Dubcek, who had been flown to Moscow in handcuffs on the night of the invasion.
Those 8 protestors all suffered terribly in jail but they gave birth to the dissident movement that brought down the Soviet empire.
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@Double_R
-->@oromagiwe democrats believe that the people are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their leaders.Not when their leaders rule by brut force. It’s easy to claim the people should revolt but the world doesn’t operate like the Borg, any individual Russian who stands up to Putin ends up dead or missing. It’s easy to sit in the high horse when this is not the reality you face.
There's nothing easy about it
....but Ukrainians are standing tall right now. What chance did the minutemen have against the redcoats? What chance did that student have against the line of tanks in Tiananmen Square? The Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto?
The choice is seldom do something now and risk great harm or do nothing and wait for things to get better- tryants rarely self-improve. The choice is more often do something at great risk now or do something at worst risk later, burdened by regret. Russians traded their democracy for a little stability and economic growth with Putin but now chaos has returned and the economy is collapsing. Right now, the best part of the Russian military is slaughtering Russia's brothers and sisters in Ukraine- now is the time to strike. If NATO is forced to move, the risk could be nuclear war and the end of life on Earth. Russians today have an opportunity and obligation to save the world from another Hitler- and I call that a cause worth dying for.
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@3RU7AL
Right, you understand how that illustrates my point exactly- right?
12 Truckers lost their license in Ontario and 27 others nationwide for blocking legitimate commercial traffic for weeks.
So that's fewer than 40 truckers pretending to represent the interests of 353,000.
Why would anybody refer to the protestors as "truckers" when so few truckers supported their cause and so many truckers were so badly harmed by the blockades?
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That's like saying The civil rights movement wasn't a "legitimate" civil rights movement since only 10% of the people fighting to erase merit based on skin were black.Disgusting.
Well if all the major Black organizations and the overwhelming majority of Black people were saying that claims to representing black people's interests were entirely false and that the movement was in fact actively harming Black interests to a spectacular degree then your analogy would apply. Yes, I would oppose a movement that pretended to represent black civil rights while almost all black people cried foul and complained of active harm to their interests.
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagiwere all the semi trucks driven by hobbyists ?this is a rather simple "yes" or "no" question
This has already been answered three or four times.
Don't make your failures/unwillingness to read/comprehend my problem, please.
I'm not going to re-research all my prior research but from memory-
- At peak, early Feb, journalists counted 400 semis relative to 4,000 protestors.
- So- less than 10% representation at peak.
- This alone proves the point
- On that day, Ottawa police reported that the most frequent ticket they had to write was driving a rig without a class A license.
- Police gave no hard number for tickets written but reported 1200 tickets issued to protestors that day, so let's estimate between 100-300 were for no class A license.
- By definition, you must have a class A license to be a professional truck driver in Canada and so it looks like probably the majority of those 400 semis were not driven by professional truck drivers.
- This is reinforced by reports of stolen rigs and many reports of unauthorized use of rigs nationwide and the fact that two stolen cabs were recovered from the protest site.
- So not hobbyists, necessarily, but probably not even a majority of drivers of semis were actual truckers and that number less than 10% of the protest on its most represented day. Not really a trucker's event at all.
- At the end of the day, only 34 semis had to be towed- so that's 34 trucks pretending to speak for 353,000 truckers- less than 1 in 1000.
- That fact, by itself, suggests anti-democratic/authoritarian outlook. If you think that the opinion of one in one thousand should override the majority, then your outlook is authoritarian.
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagiThe NAZIs had no king butthey were a cult-of-personality with a de facto king
same with Trump. same with Putin.
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagiPlease read my arguments posted in this forum for the answers to your questions.might i suggest you do a better job of explaining your position
Nope. I am confident you are just too lazy to read my prior remarks, in which my position was explained and illustrated multiple times.
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagiIf you are pro-Trump, pro-Putin thenone of the above, try again
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@3RU7AL
I don't believe the average German ever wanted to liquidate the Jewish people or take over Europe either but we democrats believe that the people are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their leaders. There was never a point in history when the German people weren't morally obligated to revolt against the NAZIs and hang the bastards themselves. Now is the time for the Russian people to take their country back from the oligarchs and display Putin's severed head from the tallest spire of St. Basil's Cathedral.
If you are waiting for International Conglomerate to demonstrate moral courage then you will wait a long time. Let's remember that Rockefeller continued to sell leaded gas to Hitler secretly and illegally, long after war had begun, even knowing that Standard Oil was the only source of that fuel essential to power German tanks and fighters and that single corporation could have by themselves ended Germany's capacity for blitzkrieg and so ended the war if only they were a little less greedy.
Let's remember that Coca-Cola continued to illegally sell the Axis powers their soda pop throughout the war, they just changed their brand name to Fanta.
If you must look to other to find your moral compass, International Conglomerates are probably the last place to start.
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagiand you seem to concede that "Freedom Convoy 2022" had few professional truckers.what exactly are you suggesting ?were all the semi trucks driven by hobbyists ?
Please read my arguments posted in this forum for the answers to your questions.
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagi
there is no king of the protests, these people are not oligarchs
Seems like you accept breaking the law, race-baiting, and violence against largely unarmed populations. The NAZIs had no king but that didn't make them non-fascists. If you are pro-Trump, pro-Putin then I think that well establishes an alignment with autocracy with sufficiency in combination with right-wing nationalism, regimented economic and social outlook, fascist self-identifications like flying confederate flags (Canadians can't claim any states rights args), spray-painting swastikas over the maple leaf, etc to justify fascist as a reasonably fair characterization of the overall political outlook. Certainly more fascist than the government actors the protestors were calling fascist. I don't think we need to establish here that every protestor was some kind of conscious advocate for fascism in principle, only that when GP says "truckers fight fascists" the protestors were objectively more in alignment with the principles of fascism than the govt and that Canadian trucking as an industry was not well represented by this protest, which establishes as a fact that GP's thesis is the opposite of the truth.
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i've been talking with real people who are at the protests
and you seem to concede that "Freedom Convoy 2022" had few professional truckers.
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@3RU7AL
what definition of "fascist" are you using ?
The dictionary definition:
FASCISM is "any right-wing, authoritarian, nationalist ideology characterized by centralized, totalitarian governance, strong regimentation of the economy and of society, and repression of criticism or opposition, or, by extension, any system of strong autocracy or oligarchy usually to the extent of bending and breaking the law, race-baiting, and/or violence against largely unarmed populations."
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@3RU7AL
->@oromagiI'm still looking for some reporting on how many prof truckerswhat the hell difference does it make if they're truckers or barbers or dentists ?
?
I'm shocked I would have to explain this but because the Freedom Convoy was not truckers (as you seem to concede here) and did not represent Canadian truckers and was in fact, reviled by Canadian Truckers, the entire enterprise was lying their asses off about who they were and who they represented and why they were protesting. ..
Are you really saying what the hell difference does it make? Aren't you a little bit curious about who they actually were and who they actually represented and why they were protesting or even why they needed to lie about their identities and their sponsors and their intent?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
-->@oromagiPretty sure he linked the wrong video by mistake... has nothing to do with central planning. You should watch it, never thought I would see GP talk up a video that endorses giving everyone $1800 dollar welfare handouts.
I don't ever click on GP's links because I'm afraid I'll end up on some GRU hacker list.
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagiwhat exactly is your argument here ?
That GP knowingly lies when he writes "Truckers fight Fascists" The obv truth is that "Fascists attacked Truckers"
are you trying to say that canadian truckers are a bunch of racists who are trying to get vax mandates repealed
You haven't read what I wrote. I am saying that there is little to no connection or evidence of representation to be found between "Freedom Convoy 2022" and the Canadian Trucking industry.
Freedom Convoy 2022 is a bunch of fascists who are trying to overthrow democracy worldwide and would happily mandate weekly vaccines if they thought it would keep white men at the top of the food chain.
vax mandates are somehow "anti-racist" ?
really rough reading comprehension, there.
and the russians are secretly organizing the whole thing ?
Putin is the number one funding source for all right-wing extremism in the West and has been for 20 years. Sources suggest Putin just provides the cash via crypto and secures compliance via kompromat but I assume he leaves the organizing to the extremists. I don't think ideology is important to Putin, just anti-Western, anti-Democratic troublemaking.
My assertions were:
- Nobody in "Freedom Convoy" leadership was ever a trucker as far I can tell.
- I'm still looking for some reporting on how many prof truckers were in the 170 group arrested.
- The only thing anti-5G, Nordic Skinheads, Wexit, Anti-VAXers, and QANON leadership have in common is that they all receive considerable support from Russia.
- The actual trucker community is more pro-VAX and better vaccinated than the average Canadian citizen
- The actual trucker community was economically devastated by these fascist fucktards pretending to be truckers
- In spirt of all GPs claims about Govt. oppressing truckers, the actual trucking community stood next to Trudeau when he condemned these idiots and called upon the convoy to stop pretending to be truckers and clear the roads for real truckers.
- Almost everything Greyparrot ever claims to be true ends up being a malicious and deliberate polar inversion of the truth. If trolling was a punishable offense, GP would have been swinging from the rafters a decade ago, at least.
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@Mharman
-->@oromagiStopping Putin works to improve both of our concerns.I agree. I just don't like the usage of the main forum for this when we have a politics forum. Putting it in the main forum gives off an undertone of "If you disagree with me on this war, get off the site."
Such is the power of FORUM selection to persuade. I think if we can tolerate use of that Forum for flame wars and subjects like this:
(to which I notice you added comments without any concern about FORUM integrity)
then a discussion about a core threat to the heart and soul of free and fair debating supersedes mere political considerations.
I don't know about undertones, but my rhetorical intent here is not "get off this site (in a democracy all voices may speak)" but rather "If you disagree with me on this, then what the fuck are you even doing here?" Questioning another debaters intent is a far cry from asking a debater to leave.
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@Lemming
-->@oromagiWouldn't this site be more like a benevolent dictatorship?A site that has an owner, that 'allows feedback and influence by the users,Though I suppose the individuals being able to leave at will, takes away a fair bit of owner leverage,Given that they'd want a healthy, honest, active site.
Well, as I've said I don't consider any kind of dictatorship compatible with the free speech necessary to make debating fair.
Our site specifically emphasizes its independence and community-driven development on its front page so no, I don't interpret that as a dictatorship.
Community-driven
Due to being completely independent, we have the ultimate freedom to set our own goals and priorities, that is why the community plays such an important role in the project's development
In fact, I am investigating the limits of our community's authority in relation to the limits of moderation authority right now in my 100th debate with our chief moderator, Whiteflame:
I hope you will give it a read when we are done!
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@Mharman
-->@oromagiThen I think the issue in maintaining site freedom is with this, not with Russia's invasion of Ukraine, as evil as it is.
Well that's the same evil tyrant pulling the same evil shit.
Stopping Putin works to improve both of our concerns.
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@RationalMadman
This website is owned by a Russian (or so he claims) so be careful what you say.
Well, I assume most Russians believe in free speech and debate as much as I do, more so perhaps given in its sad absence in their homeland. I have certainly been vocal about my contempt and fear of Putin and yes, as a democrat I do ultimately hold the body of Russian citizens accountable for their failures to uphold democracy and oust that tyrant. They've done it before, with and without violence, I am confident that Russians can and should overthrow the Tyrant Putin and end their warmongering in Ukraine immediately.
I have never received any word of caution or discouragement regarding my views from any representative of this site and I'm confident that my free speech here will be permitted to continue unimpeded.
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@Mharman
-->@oromagiWhy post this in the main forum, though? I agree that Putin is a huge world evil for the invasion, but I don't see how reaching outside of the politics forum helps anything.
Well, that's exactly my point. The DebateArt.com forum is for Topics related to DebateArt.com and the subject under discussion is DebateArt.com's identity as an inherently democratic institution. Dictators like Putin want the opportunity to suppress venues like DebateArt.com and if we debaters want venues like DebateArt.com to survive in future, we need to recognize the potential impact and consequences of letting Russia's war crimes today stand unpunished tomorrow
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Just a reminder to all those members of DebateArt advocating for Putin's invasion of Ukraine that debate is an invention and an instrument of DEMOCRACY.
Dictators, by definition, can never permit entirely free speech and without free speech the pretense of fair debate is cruelly mocked.
Vladimir Putin specifically is the sworn enemy of fair political debate, poisoning to death those who out argue him, and the greatest contemporary threat to free speech globally, interfering by unlawful subterfuge with democratic processes worldwide. Ukraine won its freedom from Russia in 1991 after suffering the calamity of Chernobyl- a disaster who's root cause was discovered to be in the absence of free speech and the fear of reprisals that prevented engineers from speaking out about known system failures. The result of that suppression of free speech was 4,000 dead and the collapse of the Soviet Empire.
Unlike Russia, Ukraine has fought hard to preserve her democracy through the Orange Revolution in 2004 and the Euromaidan Revolution of 2014. Ukraine has earned her freedom of speech and independence from Russia.
You can endorse the free and fair practice of debating or you can endorse Putin's unlawful invasion of the democratic Republic of Ukraine but you can't do both and remain ideologically consistent.
If you believe that debaters and debating should be free and fair throughout the world then you oppose that belief's most potent enemy Putin, plain and simple.
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@Amoranemix
-->@Dr.Franklin @Greyparrot @Mharman @oromagiHere is a pro-Russian view from Russia Today on the crisis : www.youtube.com/watch?v=54M2ozQ-Wxo
Russian State Propaganda is not a reliable or objective source for information. Of course RT is pro-Russian, if RT reports something other than what Putin wishes them to report the organization gets shut down, its employees fired and bosses jailed. I have no reason to give any report from RT any credit for truth or accuracy.
In Dombass (= Donetsk + Lougansk) the Russion population seems to be happy about the latest events. There have even been celebrations in the street.
Emphasis on Russian population. Ethnic Russians were less than 20% of population one hundred years ago, before the mass extinction of the native population by Stalin's ethnic cleansing programs in the 1930's, then Hitler's deportation of Ukrainians to NAZI slave labor camps, then Stalin's re-invasion. Ethnic Russians are still only 39% of the population and almost all of that first or second generation immigrants who arrived by force of brutal Russian occupation. So yes there are Russian minorities celebrating yet another brutal Russian occupation by force there but their presence in the region is fairly recent and of questionable legitimacy. Let's also recall that the overwhelming majority of those Russians voted to separate from Russia in 1991 and will likely want to separate again in a few years once they re-learn the contempt with which Russian dictators treat even ethnic Russians in Ukraine.
Is making one minority immigrant population happy worth the mass death and destruction Putin will now inflict on Russia's favorite victim state? Is the spectacular economic damage already underway across global markets a worthy price to pay to make one small violent group of recent immigrants happy?
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I have seen zero indication that Europeans are more concerned about this than the Biden administration.
But that is because you get your information from Russian outlets and you are not free to think your own thoughts
Out here in the free world, our information is much better.
Boris Johnson: "Russia is planning the biggest war in Europe since 1945, All the signs are that the plan has already in some senses begun. Intelligence suggests Russia intends to launch an invasion that will encircle Ukrainian capital Kyiv."
Emmanuel Macron blamed Putin for breaking the promises made to him last week and raised doubts about Putin's mental heath, declared a national emergency in France, called for massive EU sanctions and did not rule out further military actions.
Olaf Shultz halted the Nord Stream 2 pipeline at considerable expense to Germany particularly.
EU sanctions already announced go much further than those announced by the US and a significant distance beyond Boris Johnson’s Russia sanctions and the EU is forming a crisis meeting right now to announce far more sanctions tomorrow.
Finland and Sweden are looking at ending their bans on arms exports to nations at war so they can ship arms to Ukraine. Finland, Sweden, and Ireland have all threatened to join NATO if Russia invades. NATO is suddenly in alignment and mobilizing- Putin has reminded NATO of its purpose.
That alone should give Americans pause before picking a side.
Sorry, but there's no real question from an American perspective. In a war between Western democracies and Eastern dictators, Americans will always choose Western democracies. Anybody who thinks otherwise has been listening to Eastern dictators for too long.
Sanctions didn't work on Cuba and they most certainly and objectively didn't work on Russia. The prize of the Black Sea access is worth the price.
Straight out of Putin's mouth into GP's brain.
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yeah, sucker punch is pretty much the go-to response for Russian thugs and thieves. By 2016, all of Ukraine understood that Boyko was and remains a tool of Putin. He was VP under Yanukovych until the democratic revolution of 2014 forced him out of power after Yanukovych fled to Moscow. I'm sure Putin is counting on giving Boyko some high office in the puppet govt. after Zelensky is executed and democracy crushed.
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@FLRW
Does anyone else think Trump will move to Moscow when he is indicted?
Not on indictment, I don't think. His current plan is the same as Caesar's- take over govt. by any available means and quash his accusers. Only if he believes his last chance at executive power is spent will he flee. Even if he's convicted, the Secret Service has already submitted that it would be impossible to protect Trump in any Fed. Penitentiary and so the Secret Service would secure him at Mar-A-Lago Country Club- from which an escape would be fairly easy to arrange.
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A lot poorer than the people managing their money, absolutely.
So your definition of poor is poorer than somebody else. By that definition, the number of people living in poverty will always be [world population] -1 and the poor will always be with us until there's only one person left on earth.
If we go by real capacity to feed, shelter, and cloth ourselves, then poverty has decreased by 1 billion people since 1990, 3/4th of those lifted out of poverty in China. While I despise the model of central planning in China, there's no denying that the problem of poverty has been significantly reduced by that central planning.
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So when people allocate their financial risk assessment to the central planners like Wall St. Investment firms they end up poor every time. got it.
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Yeah yeah...people have heard the saying "not real communism" since the Soviet revolution almost 100 years ago.
You quote Orwell at least twice a week to me but you won't accept his (dictionary) definition of Communism.
I put together 2 different quotes paraphrased for context.
That would earn you an F on any academic or scientific paper anywhere. That can get you rightfully and seriously sued in the right context. Making up shit and attributing it to Orwell is the height of intellectual dishonesty. In a debate such despicable and deliberate misattribution would mean earn instant loss on conduct and sources.
If you like Orwell so much, maybe you should examine why he has written volumes on the effects of corruption and absolute power and how it will always apply to the human condition instead of praying for "real communism" in your lifetime.
I have read much of Orwell and your lack of any kind of academic or intellectual rigor well represents exactly the kind of ignorant blind true believerism that Orwell so despised and feared. Just look at the title of this forum "Truckers fight Fascism" and the doublethink represented there. You know that the people spraypainting swastikas over the Canadian Flag and terrorising people of color in downtown Ottawa represent actual fascists as Orwell or any student of history might recognize but you falsely project that the opposite is true. You know that Canadian truckers aren't represented by these fascist fringe factionalists and yet you persist in the lie. War is Peace, Slavery is Freedom, 2+2=5 , Trudeau is a Communist, and Greyparrot is not a silly, intellectually boneless troll.
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Also, GP seems to have invented his Orwell quote:
Your search - The party is concerned not with the preservation of its flesh, but with the preservation of itself ... - did not match any documents.
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I have explained to GP on tens of occasions that he is entirely mistaken on the subjects of Socialism and Communism- he simply doesn't understand that in order for the people to regulate the means of production, those people must have real power over that means of production and that only happens with free and fair elections and maximum suffrage. If you think that Russia or China or Cuba were ever examples of Communism or Socialism for even one moment than you have flunked Socialism 101 and believed the propaganda of dictators instead of consulting a dictionary.
To quote Orwell, "In my opinion, nothing has contributed so much to the corruption of the original idea of socialism as the belief that Russia is a socialist country.... I have been convinced that the destruction of the Soviet myth was essential if we wanted a revival of the socialist movement."
If you think that Socialism is a "system that concentrates power in the hands of a few," then you need to read Orwell. If you have already read Orwell and don't understand, as Orwell taught, that the underlying ideals of Socialism are justice and liberty than your comprehension of Orwell is to be questioned.
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@zedvictor4
And Putin started with good intentions,
What are you thinking of when you say this?
My read is that Putin went from managing a failed mayoral campaign to head of Russian intelligence in 3 years. Then juniormost Deputy Prime Minister in 13 months and then Acting Prime Minister in less than 24 hrs. That is, Putin wasn't even in the line of succession 24 hrs before he took power, then he was 4th in line for the position and then PM in the space of one day and he's never given up power since. That doesn't suggest a man rising to the top with good intentions that suggests a guy taking power without ever intending to be answerable to any court or bureaucracy again.
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