oromagi

WiKi:

An ELECTRIC BUS is a bus that is powered by electricity.

Electric buses can store the electricity on board, or can be fed continuously from an external source. The majority of buses storing electricity are battery electric buses, in which the electric motor obtains energy from an on-board battery, although examples of other storage modes do exist, such as the gyrobus which uses flywheel energy storage. When electricity is not stored on board, it is supplied by contact with outside power sources. For example, overhead wires, as in the trolleybus, or with non-contact conductors on the ground, as in online electric vehicles. This article mostly deals with buses storing the electricity on board.

As of 2019, 99% of the battery electric buses in the world have been deployed in China, with more than 421,000 buses on the road, which is 17% of China's total bus fleet. For comparison, the US had 300, and Europe had 2,250.

One of the most popular types of electric buses nowadays are battery electric buses. Battery electric buses have the electricity stored on board the vehicle in a battery. As of 2018 such buses can have a range of over 280 km with just one charge, however extreme temperatures and hills may reduce range. These buses are usually used as city buses due to particularities in limited range.

City driving involves a great deal of accelerating and braking. Due to this, the battery electric bus is superior to diesel bus as it can recharge most of the kinetic energy back into batteries in braking situations. This reduces brake wear on the buses and the use of electric over diesel reduces noise, air and greenhouse gas pollution in cities.

When operating within a city, it is important to minimize the unloaded and rolling weight of the bus. This can be accomplished by using aluminum as the main construction material for a bus. Composite paneling and other lightweight materials can also be used. According to Linkkebus their fully aluminum bus construction is about 3000 kg lighter than comparably-sized modern steel buses (curb weight 9500 kg). Reducing weight allows for a greater payload and reduces wear to components such as brakes, tires, and joints bringing cost savings to the operator annually.

As with other electric vehicles, climate control and extremely cold weather will weaken the performance of electric buses. In addition, terrain may pose a challenge to the adoption of electric vehicles that carry stored energy compared to trolleybuses, which draw power from overhead lines. Even when conditions are favorable, internal combustion engine buses are frequently diesel powered, and diesel is relatively inexpensive per mile. High local utility rates (especially during periods of peak demand) and proprietary charging systems pose barriers to adoption.

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4 years ago

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DART TRANSIT SYSTEM is not SEEING the ELECTRIC BUS PROBLEMS that HAVE IDLED the SEPTA FLEET in PHILADELPHIA

Plan Philly reported the transit agency is reconsidering its electric bus future after buses developed cracks in their chassis and other problems.

The buses have not been off the street for a year and a half due to the problems. SEPTA has been largely silent about resolving the issue with U.S. bus manufacturer Proterra.

Delaware Department of Transportation spokesman C.R. McLeod said that while DART’s electric buses are “manufactured by the same company, we have different model buses and are not experiencing the same issues SEPTA has.”

McLeod noted that the small fleet has “range limitations, and we are continuing to invest in the charging infrastructure necessary to support the electric buses.”

Like many transit systems, DART has longer routes between city and suburbs that make the range of batteries an issue.

By late summer, DART is expected to have 22 electric buses. Its total fleet of transit buses numbers more than 200.

Problems have also been reported with a demonstration project in Duluth, MN, a city known for its tough winter climate and hills that strain batteries, brakes, and other systems. In addition, cold weather limits the range of batteries.

Electric buses cost about $1 million each but have the potential to operate at a lower cost.

The cost of electric buses has been borne by the federal government, with transit systems testing the offerings of Proterra and other companies.

Buses and large trucks are the target of efforts to cut diesel emissions.

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The Musk Factor

Whatever the eventual outcome of the Proterra dispute, SEPTA has already moved to slow its electrification plans, pending the release of a battery bus master plan later this year, officials said. Also forthcoming is the redesign of SEPTA’s entire bus network. Prior to the slowdown, the agency had previously set the earliest possible date for a zero emission bus fleet at 2036.

“We significantly underestimated the infrastructure cost and complications associated with battery-electric implementation at the time,” wrote SEPTA director of innovation Erik Johanson early this year. “Thus, the master plan that we are now developing.”

But it’s unclear what SEPTA could do differently, given its existing investments — the agency says it’s not clear if its current chargers are compatible with other battery buses, for example. More importantly, the issues with all-battery vehicles are notably not unique to Philadelphia or Proterra.

And even as it reevaluates the future of its battery fleet, SEPTA is still investing in the vision. The cash-strapped agency is already primed to buy at least 10 more battery buses and spend $4.5 million to convert a former trolley line along Erie Avenue into a power supply for its Midvale station, to accommodate future electric vehicle recharging.

“While waiting for battery-electric bus technology to mature, SEPTA is proceeding with actions to facilitate the transition to an electrified bus fleet,” one planning document states.

SEPTA may have less of a say in what its future fleet looks like than is immediately obvious. Both the new buses and Midvale investments are largely driven largely by Federal Transit Administration grants, and internal policy documents notes key pressures to adopt zero-emission vehicles were “the availability of grant funding for BEBs [battery-electric buses] specifically.”

To critics like Martin Wright, a UK-based electric transportation advocate, those actions border on the absurd. He said the optimism around battery technology is unearned, driven more by enthusiasm for flashy technologies that promise solutions to environmental problems with no tradeoffs.

“You’ve got what I call the ‘[Elon] Musk factor.’ Silicon Valley, that kind of thing,” Wright said. “Everything’s got to be new.”

Moreover, he said SEPTA already has an emission-free solution within its arsenal. Trolleybuses, or trackless trolleys, an older, less glamorous but still all-electric mode of public transit in which vehicles are connected to an overhead power source. The vehicles are still operating on other SEPTA routes today and were formerly employed on both the test routes used for the Proterra buses. Trolleys are also able to travel offwire for short distances.

Richards said the critiques are an oversimplification. She said the agency highly values flexibility in its bus fleet, compared to vehicles more reliant on fixed overhead wires. SEPTA vehicles also sometimes double as city cooling centers in the summer or police and emergency transports.

“You want to be as flexible as possible. You want to have the flexibility to move around, change routes, to change stock to tweak routes according to your needs,” she said. “So you would have the most flexibility if you didn’t have to rely on an outside infrastructure.”

She also views improved battery tech as an inevitability. She compared battery buses to Uber’s experimental fleet of autonomous vehicles in Pittsburgh, which Richards monitored when she served as Pennsylvania’s secretary of transportation.

“I was very involved in what’s happening out in Pittsburgh,” she said. “We’re still not quite ready for fully automated vehicles to come out yet, but it’s very important, obviously, to follow and to invest as this technology emerges. We all know that they’re going to be a part of our future, just like we all know that electric vehicles for personal use, as well as buses, are in our future.”

It’s a striking comparison.

Richards helped roll out state regulations for driverless vehicles after a fatal 2018 crash involving a self-driving Uber vehicle. Incidents like that led the company’s self-driving car division, once valued in the billions of dollars, to eventually be sold off entirely.

“We probably burned $2.5 billion on autonomous,” said one prominent Uber investor. “That was a waste of money.”

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SEPTA'a CRACKING BATTERY BUSES RAISE QUESTIONS ABOUT the FUTURE of ELECTRIC TRANSIT

By Ryan Briggs

July 15, 2021

At the 2016 Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia, executives from SEPTA gave free rides on gleaming new battery-powered buses. The PR stunt was meant to herald the transit agency’s intent to purchase 25 all-electric Proterra Catalyst buses, which, at that time, would have given SEPTA the largest fleet of its kind in the United States.

A bright green vehicle wrap proclaimed SEPTA had “plugged into an emissions free future.” A new lobby exhibit inside SEPTA headquarters showcased a decades-long “evolution” of its 1,500-vehicle-strong bus fleet — the vehicles from Proterra, the nation’s largest electric bus maker, were presented as the next step in that evolution.

But, today, what was meant to be the future of SEPTA’s fleet is closer to extinction than evolution.

It’s been nearly a year and a half since a passenger set foot inside one of SEPTA’s Proterra buses, which cost nearly a million dollars apiece when they rolled out in 2019. Most are now gathering dust in a South Philly bus depot, riven by cracked chassis and other defects. The diesel and hybrid buses that SEPTA planned to replace with the all-electric fleet remain in service, with no timeline for the e-buses to return.

Externally, SEPTA has said little about the failed battery bus program or its progress in restoring the buses to service, insisting that it is working on a “resolution” with the bus manufacturer. But internal communications, obtained by WHYY’s PlanPhilly through a right-to-know request, reveal the incident shook SEPTA’s top executives and triggered a serious reevaluation of its plans to convert more of its fleet to electric power. They also show that damage to the buses was discovered even earlier than the agency previously acknowledged — before the buses even began regular service.

In a March 2021 email, SEPTA General Manager Leslie Richards said she planned to tell Federal Transit Administration officials, who helped underwrite the initial purchase of Proterra buses with a $2.6 million federal grant, that she had doubts about “the future of electric vehicle procurement.”

“I plan on explaining why we do not feel the current technology is a good investment at this time,” she wrote.

A SEPTA spokesperson acknowledged that the agency had since elected to shrink its traditional five-year bus replacement contract down to just two years to “better assess the emerging EV bus market” and would stick to buying hybrid buses in the meantime. The agency said it is now developing a new “EV master plan.”
Interviewed last month, Richards acknowledged the pause. She described it as part of a learning experience with what she described as an “emerging technology.”
“We learn more every year, as we’re moving forward,” she said. “But if you bought a car and the front of it started to crack, you would not feel so good about that investment. So you would want to go back in and see, you know, why is this happening?”

Though the quiet replacement of a sliver of the city’s bus fleet with noisier, more carbon-emitting substitutes has gone unnoticed by most Philadelphians, the debacle carries serious national implications about the future of green infrastructure.

While SEPTA pressed pause on its EV program, President Joe Biden’s recent infrastructure plan includes some $7.5 billion to help replace thousands of diesel-powered school and transit buses with electric models. The president “virtually” visited a Proterra factory in April, and U.S. Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm previously served on the company’s board. The bus maker agreed to go public last month, after merging with another green energy company in a $1.6 billion IPO based on its record of bus sales, and pivot into the fraught electric truck market.

Despite enthusiasm from both the market and government funders, Ari Ofsevit, a senior associate of the Institute for Transit and Development Policy in Boston, said the technology was, at best, years away from reliability. The battery electric buses in his city, too, failed to live up to performance expectations, suffering from limited range and long charging times.

“No one has done a large-scale fleet conversion,” he said. “There’s a lot of promise. But there isn’t a good track record.”

Proterra buses were also taken out of service in Duluth, Minnesota, after officials realized that hilly routes and heaters were draining batteries too quickly. A battery fleet from Chinese manufacturer BYD was taken out of service in Indianapolis for upgrades due to range issues, while officials in Albuquerque, New Mexico, returned 15 BYD buses for similar reasons. The CEO of a major battery-powered truck start-up, Nikola — the related sector Proterra is now hoping to expand into — resigned after a report accused him of lying about the technical capabilities of long range vehicles.

Proponents, like engineering professor Jeremy J. Michalek, director of Carnegie Mellon University’s Vehicle Electrification Group, said he worries incidents like the mysterious failure of SEPTA’s ballyhooed battery fleet will scare others away from zero-emission vehicles.

“I definitely worry about those kinds of things,” he said. “If we push too fast, too early, and the technology isn’t ready and people have bad experiences, they may be reluctant to try again. There’s only a few ways to move people around without emissions, and electric vehicles are one of them.”

Related Content

More weight, more problems

The issues with SEPTA’s Proterra buses started before they had ever picked up paying passengers.

Back in 2017, SEPTA selected two pilot routes to demo the new Proterras. Both were in South Philadelphia and specifically chosen because they were short and flat — optimal conditions for buses that need regular recharging and with battery life that dwindled over hilly terrain. But even those routes needed buses to pull around 100 miles each day, while the Proterras were averaging just 30 to 50 miles per charge. Officials also quickly realized there wasn’t room at the ends of either route for charging stations.

Eventually, SEPTA issued a change order asking Proterra to supply longer-range buses to ease the recharging churn — essentially, vehicles loaded with more batteries that could average closer to 100 miles a day before recharging. The agency further poured millions into upgrading the nearby Southern Bus Depot to provide space for charging stations.

By the time the buses were delivered in 2019, SEPTA’s PR campaign around the introduction of the new, greener buses was in full swing. Becky Collins, SEPTA’s corporate initiatives manager for sustainability, depicted the agency as having overcome the aforementioned logistical hurdles with Proterra’s cutting edge fleet of long-range buses.

“The technology keeps on improving,” Collins said of the new fleet in a June 2019 Inquirer article about the bus launch. “It just keeps on getting better and better and better.”

But by that point, both SEPTA and Proterra already knew the heavier buses were cracking.

A letter from Proterra to SEPTA states that “non-structural skin coat cracks” were first detected in bus chassis in May 2019, a month before they began formal service. But the hairline cracks were dismissed by the company as purely cosmetic, and SEPTA spokesperson Andrew Busch said Proterra developed a plan to repair the cracks by fall of that year, promising it “would not reoccur.”

The cracking issue, of course, did recur. In some instances, atop prior repairs. Photographs circulated internally show cracks were everywhere on some buses — around windows, doorways, light fixtures — sometimes with thumb-size pieces of chassis missing.

SEPTA mechanics also discovered yet another issue in January 2020: The brackets holding roof-mounted equipment were failing. The manufacturer agreed to repair the brackets but continued to insist the cracks were “a non-structural, cosmetic issue.”

SEPTA didn’t buy it this time. The buses were taken out of service in February 2020.

“This continuation of the cracking issue raised concerns by SEPTA that the root cause of the cracking was not identified or corrected by Proterra, and that these cracks could be, or could propagate into, structural issues,” Busch said.

What followed was a protracted legal back-and-forth that continues today, with Proterra maintaining the buses should be put back into service and SEPTA insisting on a fix.

“Proterra and its structural consultant … have been uncooperative in the resolution process,” wrote chief vehicle engineering officer Dave Warner last summer.

The official cause of the issues remains a point of debate because of this ongoing dispute. But some sources believed the switch to heavier, long-range buses needed for even SEPTA’s shorter routes could be the culprit.

Ofsevit said the underlying problem is that batteries are simply far heavier than a fossil-fuel tank and yet provide less energy output — leading manufacturers to add more hefty batteries while cutting frame weight to compensate.

“Battery electric buses have used composite frames to pull down the weight,” he said. “But that can have unintended consequences when you’re shifting the mass, adding additional batteries. You’re moving more weight to the front or back axles.”

Proterra frames were made out of a composite material. Unlike all-metal frames, they used a mix of resin, fiberglass, carbon fiber, balsa wood, and steel reinforcement plates, according to a SEPTA report on the cracks. Company lawyers would later analogize the issue to cracking paint applied to a metal frame, raising doubts the issue could ever be “fixed.”

“Proterra is unable to repair or permanently prevent the recurrence of … cracking because it is an inherent part of the composite body material,” wrote Josh Ensign, Proterra’s chief operating officer.

Still, today, Proterra maintains that SEPTA’s fleet will be put back into service — eventually.

“We are working cooperatively and productively with SEPTA to put their buses back in service so that riders and the community can realize the benefits of our clean, quiet, zero-emission electric transit buses,” wrote company spokesperson Shane Levy. “Our buses have provided over 20 million service miles to communities across North America, and we look forward to our buses serving the needs of SEPTA transit riders.”

But in the meantime, there have been other costs related to the issues. SEPTA retained Duane Morris attorneys to assist in the Proterra dispute as outside counsel, billing the agency for over $57,000 as of June 2021. Energy provider PECO had bought out a two-year $650,000 bus ad contract to promote the all-electric fleet SEPTA, which ended after the Proterras were taken out of service. (Busch said the timing was incidental, and that the contract had simply run its course).

Internal SEPTA emails show that as the bus issues crept into a second year, some seemed to be growing frustrated there would ever be a resolution.

“In regards to the Proterra buses, we are still hopeful that their buses will eventually be back in service? Truly?” wrote assistant general manager Kim Scott Heinle in February 2021.

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Duchamp's Fountain should be exhibited in the bathroom

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@zedvictor4

@Intelligence_06
So, what isn't art?

Or more precisely, what cannot be art?

Art must be artificial, that's what the word means. So Nature cannot be art. Plants and animals cannot be art. Rocks and water cannot be art. But any of these can be made into art. The distinction between art and mere manufacture lies in the heart of the artist and that artist's surrender to divinity. Neither audiences nor critics can know for certain what is art. No particular medium must be art or can't be art. Art is made art by the heart of the artist.

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Smartest man on earth drops huge redpill about the jews who control the world

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@Wylted

also bobby fisher is undoubtedly high IQ as well, given what it takes to be a chess grandmaster and the best in the world

Fisher was a miserable Jewish schizophrenic. He spent his life admiring Hitler who would have gassed him for his ancestry. And why? What did Hitler ever accomplish except the utter destruction of his country, friends, and family? People had to change their names from Hitler he was so universally despised. Similarly, Fisher was incapable of not sabotaging every relationship in his life and died a miserable, painful death because he refused to have a kidney stone removed. He literally pissed on his own organs until he died from infection, estranged from friends, family, and country- all he had left were people who liked him for his chess play- which was very impressive.

On 9/11, Fisher stated that the attack was justified and that he hoped the US Govt would fall soon so that the mass slaughter of Jews could begin again. So your second genius would seem to refute your first genius on the causes of 9/11. I can see why you admire these guys so much. If someone shares your biases, they must be a genius and if those geniuses confirm your biases then you must be a genius. You can ignore all the rational arguments that refute you because you have proved to yourself that you must smarter than all your critics. Call me picky but I more admire geniuses with accomplishments. I like geniuses with survival skills.

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Proof jews tried to fake the holocaust during world war one

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@Wylted

->@Intelligence_06
the thesis of this thread is that this is beyond coincidence.

silly

That it looks like the public was being primed with the 6 million jew figure and terms like holocaust.

except 6 million was about the correct number of Jews in Eastern Europe and Russia at that time. The pop grew over the next 10 years then declined as Hitler ascended. It is not a coincidence that number was only a little larger when the Germans rounded them up and murdered them all 18 years later.

I may have asked why the jews keep having holocaust of 6 million?

They dont. Nor did the Irish American former Governer make such a claim

Please address the op and not off topic things like whether the holocaust happened or not. Which it didn't

Everything you stated in the OP has been shown to be false. You failed to read for facts and comprehension, you only read for hate. Why continue?

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https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6426/post-links/276400

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@zedvictor4

@oromagi
So why should there not be post vax breakthrough clusters?

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@zedvictor4

A virus doesn't float about looking for unvaccinated targets.

Nor has anybody in this forum suggested such

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Proof jews tried to fake the holocaust during world war one

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@Wylted

Gosh, as long as the subject is hating Jews you will blindly trust any old shit any random source shovels your way.

during world War one,

false. WW1 ended on Nov 11, 1918

we have articles by prominent Jews

false. Martin H Glynn is not a Jew nor is he plural. He was the first Irish-American Governor of NY

claiming deaths of 6 million

false. Glynn is appealing for US food aid to benefit Eastern European and Russian Jews, of which there were about 6 million in 1919.

and referring to it with the word "holocaust".

Yeah, but holocaust was a greek neologism popularized in New York about 25 years before this was written. The Holocaust is more an American Christian word for the event which Jews more typically refer to as Shoah

The first recorded use of the term holocaust in its modern sense was in 1895 by The New York Times to describe the massacre of Armenian Christians by Ottoman Muslims. The term comes from the Greek: ὁλόκαυστος, romanized: holókaustos; ὅλος hólos, "whole" + καυστός kaustós, "burnt offering". The biblical term shoah, meaning "destruction", became the standard Hebrew term for the murder of the European Jews. According to Haaretz, the writer Yehuda Erez may have been the first to describe events in Germany as the shoah. Davar and later Haaretz both used the term in September 1939. Yom HaShoah became Israel's Holocaust Remembrance Day in 1951.

On 3 October 1941 the American Hebrew used the phrase "before the Holocaust", apparently to refer to the situation in France, and in May 1943 the New York Times, discussing the Bermuda Conference, referred to the "hundreds of thousands of European Jews still surviving the Nazi Holocaust". In 1968 the Library of Congress created a new category, "Holocaust, Jewish (1939–1945)". The term was popularised in the United States by the NBC mini-series Holocaust (1978) about a fictional family of German Jews, and in November that year the President's Commission on the Holocaust was established. As non-Jewish groups began to include themselves as Holocaust victims, many Jews chose to use the Hebrew terms Shoah or Churban. The Nazis used the phrase "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" (German: die Endlösung der Judenfrage)

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biden's cabinet overwhelmingly jewish

So why does Biden give so many powerful positions to Jews, and has all his children marry Jews?

Trump would never allow such things.

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(+)oromagi

TOWN

(+)Greyparrot Battle of Actium MAGISTRATE

(+)Drlebronski

(+)Whiteflame

(+)SupaDudz

(-)MisterChris

(-)Lunatic

(+)Polyglot

(-)Earth

(+)Wylted Battle of Mt Vesuvius (no town wincon)

(+)Badger

SCUM

+ means on my short list of battles

VOTE COUNT:

Badger (4/6) - Lunatic, Chris, Whiteflame, Bron, Supa

Wylted (1/6) - Oro

Earth (1/6) - Polyglot

Bron (1/6) - Wylted

Chris (1/6) - Badger

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Smartest man on earth drops huge redpill about the jews who control the world

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@Wylted

It's weird because he doesn't sound very smart.

I looked at his wikipedia page. You would think that wikipedia would say he's the smartest man in the world because of all these important insights he's made in some or various fields of study but there's nothing like that. Langan claims that he can prove the existence of God, the soul and an afterlife, using mathematics but fails to explain why he doesn't just do that then. Such an equation would be very popular. In fact, the article spends way more time explaining why Langan dropped out of college and worked a long series of manual labor jobs for the next 30 years. I assume Langan is the one writing page because I doubt many objective biographers would think we need to know that his mom forgot to send the requisite financial info for his scholarship.

Langan's support of conspiracy theories, including the 9/11 Truther movement (Langan has claimed that the George W. Bush administration staged the 9/11 attacks in order to distract the public from learning about the CTMU) and the white genocide conspiracy theory, as well as his opposition to interracial relationships, have contributed to his gaining a following among members of the alt-right and others on the far right. Journalists have described certain of Langan's Internet posts as containing "thinly veiled" antisemitism and making antisemitic "dog whistles".

(Recent tweets suggest that any prior veils are certainly put aside now).

So, Langan claims that he can prove that God exists with math and that Bush brought down the twin towers to prevent Langan from proving God with math but twenty years later Langan's incredibly world-shaking equation still goes unpublished. He appears on game shows and gives plenty of interviews but his claims of genius don't seem to have been applied self-promotion. Gee, I wonder why.

Maybe he's only the smartest man in the world in the Trumpiest sense of that expression.

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Inventor of mrna vaccine about to be killed by the american government.

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@Wylted

the inventor of the vaccine is about to be killed. Probably because he knows too much and is a threat to the elite. https://twitter.com/RWMaloneMD/status/1416723981864947712

Dr Malone should consult a security expert regarding his public safety, rather than a journalist.

Journalist are not particularly well known for evaluating risks to themselves, much less risk to others

Dr Malone should refrain from publicizing any threats to his safety, real or imagined. To make such claims can't possibly increase his safety but it does inform people that he doesn't have security now and it does put the idea out there where perhaps there was no such thought before. Yes, the Dr gets to enjoy all those people publicly telling him how worried they are for him and how brave he's not helping to improve the situation.
Dr Malone seems to be holding onto some unpopular scientific opinion regarding m-RNA vaccines right now but I don't think that makes him any less a member of the elite and can't see why any scientists or politicians would feel threatened by his opinion. I'd think that if there is any real threat against the man it comes from mentally unstable anti-vaxxers, incited by disinformation such as the stuff you shovel about.

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@Discipulus_Didicit

Less than 100 people is a pretty small sample size to be looking at for statistics such as breakout rate.

I agree it is an insufficient sample from which to draw conclusions. I am inferring from this small sample that we are seeing breakthrough clusters elsewhere that are less newsworthy, concealed perhaps by the noise of unvaccinated cases.

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@thett3

What I had heard was that they are close to 100% effective at preventing hospitalization and death, not at preventing infection. I would be curious how severe the cases are. They are probably pretty minor infections. I’m hearing rumblings that some of the new variants are starting to beat the vaccines but I haven’t seen any hard data that supports that at all yet. It’s also possible that the delta variety is more transmissible but less severe. All in all I’m not very worried at this point

Of the stories I cited I don't think anybody has been hospitalized.

A local ER doctor went on the news tonight:

DENVER -- An emergency room doctor based in Denver is sounding the alarm as the COVID-19 delta variant spreads across Colorado.
"I think maybe it's time to start thinking about putting our masks back on, especially indoors where we know that the ventilation is not necessarily all that good," Dr. Comilla Sasson said Sunday.

As of the latest CDPHE data from the last week of June, the delta variant made up nearly 90% of the specimens randomly tested.
"I think the data is changing, and I think that's hard for folks," Dr. Sasson said.
This week, Los Angeles County began requiring masks indoors again, even for vaccinated people, due to rising cases and hospitalizations.
The health district serving Las Vegas now also recommends both vaccinated and unvaccinated people wear masks indoors.

"When a new mutation comes out that's more transmissible, we have to change our approach to keep everyone safe, and I think that's hard for people to sometimes stomach," Dr. Sasson said.
Vaccinated people are included in these requirements or recommendations, she says, because they, too, can get infected, even if the symptoms are mild, and unknowingly spread the virus.
"What we're learning now and as we're starting to see all over the U.S. is that we're having these breakthrough cases, which is basically people who've been vaccinated who have now gotten COVID-19," Dr. Sasson said. "You've got vaccinated people who maybe have mild symptoms starting to realize they have COVID, but they can still transmit COVID to other people."

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@badger

I think I'm willing to hammer.

Badger, you are -1

if you are town you should make your claim

if that ends up hurting town strategically, I can't see how'd you be faulted at this point.

I don't agree w/ whiteflame that the reaction to VTL was scummy- I haven't played w/ badger before but I know he goes back to DDO games and I saw more of that there. coal and drafter (even TUF sometimes) treat every vote on them with righteous indignation.

However, badger's quickdraw bandwagon on Wylted after me and then just as rapid withdrawal was eyebrow raising, he was one of the folks who gave an excuse up front, his tunnel on misterchris is weak, he's trying hard to make nice with whiteflame, he says he done and then he's back, he says he'll claim and then he won't.... I don't blame him for not wanting engage TUF, feels to me like TUF was just looking for his punching bag du jour. None of it amounts to a smoking gun but I don't mind flipping that rock and seeing what's underneath.

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Lawrence Olivier as Crassus

Tony Curtis as his slave, Antonius

Marcus Licinius Crassus : Do you eat oysters?
Antoninus : When I have them, master.
Marcus Licinius Crassus : Do you eat snails?
Antoninus : No, master.
Marcus Licinius Crassus : Do you consider the eating of oysters to be moral and the eating of snails to be immoral?
Antoninus : No, master.
Marcus Licinius Crassus : Of course not. It is all a matter of taste, isn't it?
Antoninus : Yes, master.
Marcus Licinius Crassus : And taste is not the same as appetite, and therefore not a question of morals.
Antoninus : It could be argued so, master.
Marcus Licinius Crassus :(emerging from his bath) My robe, Antoninus..... My taste includes both snails and oysters.

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@Nyxified

I only know the last three Yankees were two Moderna and one Pfizer.

Wow, if breakthroughs are really hitting 30-40% I think we may have re-opened prematurely.

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@badger

Very interesting. I tried to read Johnny Got His Gun over a girl who liked weird books recently, but couldn't stomach the idea of it.

Trumbo is one of our local literary heroes- nothing like Ireland, of course, but I've seen his house in Montrose and the building in my neighborhood where he used to rent an apt. is now called The Dalton Trumbo.

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@badger

I could go watch Kubrick's Spartacus instead of this tbh. I didn't even know that was a thing.

Classic- Blacklisted Dalton Trumbo script- "I am Spartacus," early Kirk Douglas and Tony Curtis, No. 81 on the American Film Institute list

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@Wylted

@oromagi
I was a big fan of Spartacus but vesuvius happened in the show at the season finale of the 3rd season.

Ouch. That is the opposite of helping your case.

So- verified. Vesuvius is the climactic battle of Season 2 (3rd season because 2nd season was a prequel season)

So now we know why Wylted thinks the Battle of Mt. Vesuvius is a big battle- because of a TV show and not because of history. I guess the only doubt I have left is whether Pie was also a big fan of the show- a question that must go unanswered.

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@badger

@oromagi
Is it a weak claim?

It's super weak from a historian's perspective but it maybe gets some lift from a pop culture perspective. I was thinking that Spartacus might get crowbarred in even though the whole "war" was pretty minor. In the Kubrick movie, there are some brief mentions of the slaves on Vesuvius- never called the battle of Vesuvius. I never saw the TV show but scanned episode descriptions and came up with no hits for Vesuvius.

It certainly doesn't match up against the other battles on the short list in terms of body counts and historical significance.

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@Wylted

lol

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(+)oromagi

TOWN

(+)Greyparrot Battle of Actium MAGISTRATE

(+)Drlebronski

(+)Whiteflame

(+)SupaDudz

(+)Badger

(-)Lunatic

Polyglot

Earth

(-)MisterChris

(+)Wylted Battle of Mt Vesuvius (no town wincon)

SCUM

+ means on my short list of battles

VOTE COUNT:

Wylted (2/6) - Oro,

Badger (2/6) - Lunatic, Chris, wylted

MisterChris (1/6) - Bron, badger

Earth (1/6) - Polyglot

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anybody else want to claim a minor dust up with slaves for their famous battle?

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@Wylted

>@oromagi
You still haven't said what you think town's wincon might be.
This borders on pm analysis. If pie says PM analysis is acceptable or this does not count as pm analysis than I will discuss.

My second post of the game was PM analysis and Pie hasn't complained. Geez, man, you are obv scum at this point. Why don't you just pretend your wincon is the same as everybody else's?

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@Lunatic

My posting will probably slow through the rest of the evening, just a heads up. I'll be on tomorrow evening to help decide a lynch and hopefully get a good read on some of the inactives.

There is no tomorrow evening. DP1 ends at lunch on Monday. In other words, lynch tonight or no lynch.

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@Wylted

@oromagi
ACtually what the fuck is this. Apparently there is two battles of vesuvius. I'm referring to this one

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mount_Vesuvius

Well, you did come up with something although it is suspiciously out of kilter with the notion of famous battles. There wasn't even a legion present- just local militia chasing off Spartacus. There are literally hundreds of Roman battles more famous than this little skirmish.

You still haven't said what you think town's wincon might be.

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@Wylted

@oromagi
I never mentioned my wincon

yeah, we noticed

and you listed the wrong battle.

how is that even possible? These are supposed to be famous battles and the whole of the third Serville War was bassically just Crassus chasing Spartacus down the Penninsula. Battle of SIlarius River is the only battle that has a name as far as I can tell and even that is hardly famous.

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VOTE COUNT:

MisterChris (2/6) - Bron, Wylted

Badger (2/6) - Lunatic, Chris

Earth (1/6) - Polyglot

Wylted (1/6)- oro

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UNVOTE

VTL Wylted

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(+)oromagi

TOWN

(+)Greyparrot Battle of Actium MAGISTRATE

(+)Drlebronski

(+)Whiteflame

(+)SupaDudz

(+)Badger

(-)Lunatic

Polyglot

Earth

(-)MisterChris

(+)Wylted Battle of the Silarius River (no town wincon)

SCUM

+ means on my short list of battles

VOTE COUNT:

MisterChris (3/6) - Oro, Bron, Wylted

Badger (2/6) - Lunatic, Chris

Earth (1/6) - Polyglot

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@Wylted

maybe if i said ywwtm you would have figured it out. In any case, it seems you don't share the same wincon as the rest of us.

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anybody else want to explain to Wylted what ywwtt means?

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@Wylted

Oro is doing too much theme analysis. If he is town it is helping scum too much.

Behavior reads as slightly scummy, since most town players would wait for theme analysis until scum is backed into a corner with claims.

are you ready to tell us what you meant by partially on the list? dywwtt?

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@badger

Tunneling is the other big towntell, like TUF is doing here.

TUF can play that role better than anybody else here, tho

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Let's recall that scum might have customized claims-

I have given the mafia to the opportunity to obtain a fake role from me or a fake character with justification for a role of their choice

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@badger

Chris plays his cards close. I wouldn't expect reflex OMGUS except for tactics and newbs.

Is polyglot experienced?

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@Earth

@Polyglot

Polyglot, Earth-

INFORMATION, PLEASE:

Without revealing your battles, I would like to know if you are on this list of well known battles:

Cannae

Teutoburg Forest

Alesia

Zama

Lake Trasimene

Catalaunian Plains

Carrhae

Actium

Second Philippi

Trebia

Milvian Bridge

Third Servile War (Spartacus)

Heraclea

Pharsalus

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(+)oromagi

TOWN

(+)Greyparrot Battle of Actium MAGISTRATE

(+)Drlebronski

(+)Whiteflame

(+)SupaDudz

(+)Badger

(+)Wylted

(-)Lunatic

Polyglot

Earth

(-)MisterChris

SCUM

+ means on my short list of battles

VOTE COUNT:

MisterChris (3/6) - Oro, Bron, Wylted

Badger (2/6) - Lunatic, Chris

Earth (1/6) - Polyglot

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@badger

Yeah, I don't get it. I've got scraps on Chris- Roman victory, not on list, late to game. Why do you have so much insight, I wonder?

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(+)oromagi

TOWN

(+)Greyparrot Battle of Actium MAGISTRATE

(+)Drlebronski

(+)Whiteflame

(+)SupaDudz

Badger

(+)Wylted

(-)Lunatic

Polyglot

Earth

(-)MisterChris

SCUM

+ means on my short list of battles

VOTE COUNT:

MisterChris (3/6) - Oro, Bron, Wylted

Badger (2/6) - Lunatic, Chris

Earth (1/6) - Polyglot

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@oromagi
The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines have an overall efficiency of 90 percent and JJ has 72 percent. So 1 out of 10 people vaccinated can still get Covid with little to no symptoms. As a comparison, the polio vacccine with 4 doses gave 100 percent efficiency.

Yes but those are lowballs to begin with and we are not seeing anything like 10% breakthrough rates....so why the clustering?

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REPUBLIC

Zama

Cannae

Heraclea

Lake Trasimene

Carrhae

Actium

Second Philippi

Pharsalus

Alesia

Trebia

Third Servile War (Spartacus)

EMPIRE

Catalaunian Plains

Teutoburg Forest

Milvian Bridge

That looks surprisingly good, actually

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PRE-MARIAN

Zama

Cannae

Heraclea

Lake Trasimene

POST-MARIAN

Catalaunian Plains

Carrhae

Actium

Second Philippi

Pharsalus

Alesia

Teutoburg Forest

Trebia

Milvian Bridge

Third Servile War (Spartacus)

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EASTERN BATTLES

Catalaunian Plains

Carrhae

Actium

Second Philippi

Pharsalus

WESTERN BATTLES

Alesia

Zama

Cannae

Teutoburg Forest

Heraclea

Lake Trasimene

Trebia

Milvian Bridge

Third Servile War (Spartacus)

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fix'd

ROMAN WINS

Alesia

Zama

ROMAN LOSSES

Cannae

Teutoburg Forest

Heraclea

Lake Trasimene

Catalaunian Plains

Carrhae

Trebia

CIVIL WAR (ROMANS on BOTH SIDES)

Actium

Second Philippi

Milvian Bridge

Third Servile War (Spartacus)

Pharsalus

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