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oromagi

*Moderator*

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Posted in:
TRUMP MUST GO TODAY
Present estimates of Trump's contribution to US debt have surpassed $16trillion by 2026.  That's an 82% increase in national debt with nothing to show for it. 

$16Trillion could have bought us 8 Iraq War sized wars
$16Trillion could have bought us 20 Obamacare sized programs
$16Trillion could have bought us nearly 100 Apollo-sized NASA programs

Except for a 300 mile upgrade to the our border defenses, I can't think of a single public benefit achieved for that astonishing cost.

Beyond all the other epithets, Trump will certainly be remembered as the worst manager of public funds in human history.

And unlike any other President, we will actually be able to point to large amounts of that debt- millions if not billions that actually went straight into the President's pocket during his term.
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TRUMP MUST GO TODAY
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@ethang5
Dismissing the Associated Press as fake news discredits your argument more than any counter from me possibly could.  Since by that claim alone you demonstrate ignorance of what is real and what is not, why should anybody give your opinion any weight?
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N*g*er
-> @oromagi
Your use of the word BAN suggest a legal prohibition but I don't think its illegal to say that word anyplace in America or should be.  There will always be social sanctions for breaking the rules of any society but that is not a legal prohibition.
Why did you feel compelled to type the word out?

Fear of writing out a complete word stems from an ancient fear of accidentally summoning or attracting the attention of a god or other magical being- the way Sauron's name was feared in LotR or Voldemort's in Harry Potter.   The point of minces and grawlices is to avoid offending the gods included in various oaths and curses.  Extending those magical practices to words that do not invoke any god- shit, fuck, nigger, etc makes absolutely zero sense- its a superstitious practice that has forgotten its main purpose.  I suppose the modern intent is to display a more polite intention but I think it gives the word more power because those words get special treatment.  Nor is there any semantic shift-  shoot or shite might offer a little semantic variation on shit in some context but sh*t and shit mean the exact same thing semantically and everybody who reads the word sh*t is saying shit in her head so the effect of the special treatment is to elevate the word as magical or imbued with more  power than other words.  I don't think the word should be given magical treatment.   Words are not inherently offensive in and of themselves, they are only made offensive by context and usage.
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Cooking
Cook other people and you are a cannibal.  Lazy people make the best cannibals since energetic cannibals too soon eat themselves.
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trump shouldn't have been impeached today
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Free Speech does not imply that every allegation must be given weight or every lie given due consideration.  The First Amendment prevents the US Federal Govt from infringing on individual's speech.  The First Amendment does not empower the President of the United States to muster a militia and order it to stop Congress from electing a successor.  Quite the opposite, the First Amendment expressly forbids the chief executive from any infringement on any expression.  When it comes to the results of this election or any other the POTUS is constitutionally required to shut the fuck up- certainly not launch lynch mobs to reverse the vote.
I never said it did.  But nor does it give some people the authority to decide what is weighty and what is not. 
The First Amendment does not but the US Constitution absolutely does.  That's pretty much what the Constitution is for.

The Left do not get to determine what is correct and what is not.
The core tenant of leftism is equal rights for all.  Whether you know it or not, America is an inherently leftist project and democracy an inherently leftist form of government.  Anybody who has ever sworn to support and defend the US Constitution is leftist by definition whether they or not they know it.

I reject your position that the First Amendment forbids anyone from commenting on the results of the election. 
My position is that the President in his position representing the Federal Govt. may not infringe on the free expression of US citizens, including their political expression by vote.

If so, would you think that both Hillary and Biden after the last election should have shut up rather than B'd about it for many - even years after it happened? Trump might well be  a sore loser - but compared to Hillary - and to Pelosi - it comes close. 
Really?  Here's Hillary Clinton early on the morning after the election, when the count wasn't even 90% complete:

Last night, I congratulated Donald Trump and offered to work with him on behalf of our country. I hope that he will be a successful president for all Americans. This is not the outcome we wanted or we worked so hard for and I’m sorry that we did not win this election for the values we share and the vision we hold for our country.   Our campaign was never about one person or even one election, it was about the country we love and about building an America that’s hopeful, inclusive and big-hearted. We have seen that our nation is more deeply divided than we thought. But I still believe in America and I always will. And if you do, then we must accept this result and then look to the future. Donald Trump is going to be our president. We owe him an open mind and the chance to lead.Our constitutional democracy enshrines the peaceful transfer of power and we don’t just respect that, we cherish it. It also enshrines other things; the rule of law, the principle that we are all equal in rights and dignity, freedom of worship and expression. We respect and cherish these values too and we must defend them.

I challenge you find any equivalent language in the speeches of Trump.

Pelosi threatening to prevent Trump from being sworn in prior to his swearing in.

No idea what this is.  Please provide documentation.

Pelosi even then threatening impeachment. 

Threats to impeach are an American constant.  Peter King wanted to impeach Obama for wearing a tan suit.

It was not a peaceful transition on the last occasion with thousands of protestors lining the streets and committing violence.   why is that permissible then - but not now?
No violence is permissible, then or now.  In what sense was violence permissible then?
And when a multi-national private corporation can shut down and silence the President of America, then I wonder what about the rest of us who do not have power, money or influence? 
Republicans are suddenly finding religion on anti-trust regulation- about 30 years too late.
So are you saying you are not concerned?
I'm saying I beat you there thirty years ago.

This is one of the biggest coups in history

Yes, Trump attempted a coup.
Trump is already in power.  The coup is bigger than Trump - 
Trump lost power on November 3rd and was violently seeking to change America's decision.  To the extent that Trump has conceded and called for a peaceful transition I don't see what point any further violence could now serve.  The coup was for Trump's sake and Trump promises to go.

I am not a Republican. 
How did you vote in the Presidential election?
that they have lost sight of reality. 
The QAnon party wants us to believe it knows what's real. 
What is QAnon? 
The religious beliefs of Trumpism.

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TRUMP MUST GO TODAY
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@ethang5

I can see why you would love Trump. He had 5 kids with 3 different women and he gave the USA the first Soviet Union born First Lady that has a cute accent since English is not her first language.
And every one of those qualities is vital for a good president? The sheer pettiness of the derangement is astounding. I, and millions of American citizens, love Trump because he....
1. Kept his promises to us
2. Improved the economy
3. Respected our religious rights
4. Attended to America first
5. Did not tolerate loony leftist ideas
6. Started no wars
7. Kept our military strong
8. Placed sane judges on the courts
9. Did not care for political correctness
10. Was transparent, saying to us exactly what he thought
All of these assertions are counterfactual except number 6- no wars.


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TRUMP MUST GO TODAY
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@ethang5
--> @oromagi
78 Million American Citizens:

We love President Trump
Trump is our President
We do not think he should be impeached
We do not think he should be removed from office
Presidential results From The Associated Press

Joe Biden
Democratic Party

306 electoral votes

51.4% of votes

81,283,485

Donald Trump
Republican Party

232 electoral votes

46.9% of votes

74,223,744

  • You've got your statistics wrong
  • You've failed to note that Biden received far more support than Trump
  • Not every vote for Trump should be misinterpreted as love for Trump
  • Most Americans who voted for Trump nevertheless recognize that Biden won the election (including Donald Trump)
  • Many people who voted for Trump in November nevertheless endorse Trump's impeachment for the attempted coup of Jan 6
    • Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has voiced his support for impeachment, although he has not yet decided to vote for conviction.
  • One cannot claim to be an American citizen but also seek the violent  rejection of the main instrument of democracy.  You must choose one or the other.


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N*g*er
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@Wagyu
for one to believe the N-word is rude is to overlook two fundamental factors, being

a) how language can evolve over time and
b) that rude words simply enhance the ability to free speech
Let's note that your thesis contains a contradiction.  Your first argument is that the word NIGGER is not rude because language evolves.  Your second argument is that rude words like NIGGER enhance free speech.  Your second argument concedes that the word NIGGER is rude, contradicting your first argument.

RUDENESS is "a display of disrespect by not complying with the social norms or etiquette of a group or culture"

so arguing that any particular display is not disrespectful in the here and now because that display was not rude in some other time or place misses the point of etiquette.

WIKIPEDIA: "In a society, manners are described as either good manners or as bad manners to indicate to a person whether or not his or her behavior is acceptable to the cultural group. As such, manners enable ultrasociality and are integral to the functioning of the social norms and conventions that are informally enforced through personal self-regulation in public life and in private life. The perspectives of sociology indicate that manners are a means for men and women to display their social status, and a means of demarcating, observing, and maintaining the boundaries of social identity and of social class."

Manners are all about social context.  Showing the bottom of your feet is perfectly acceptable in water tubing or the gym but far less acceptable on an airplane.  If you show the bottom of your feet to the King of Saudi Arabia you will probably do some jail time.  Nobody's saying that there's something inherently wrong with showing the bottom of your feet- the point is how one demonstrates one's understanding of the society one walks in and the choices one makes in terms of self-expression relative to that society.

So in most American contexts- academia, say, or internet forums, an unqualified use of the word NIGGER is an announcement that you disrespect black people and disrespect the established norms of that society.  The speaker's true intent is irrelevant to the transgression of manners.  Etiquette is a series of tests established by each society to discover whether you understand that society and belong to that society.

In some select societies use of the word NIGGER is acceptable.  White Supremacists often use the word to display their disrespect for black people generally and demonstrate loyalty to White Supremacist groups.  Black rappers often use the word to display their disrespect for the social norms of the white establishment.  In context, this contradiction makes perfect sense because the word deliberately evokes America's history of slavery.  When a black man says NIGGER to a black man, the evocation is "remember our common slave ancestry"  When a white man says NIGGER to a black man the evocation is "remember my ancestors owned your ancestors."

So the "language evolves" argument fails.  If you wish to be a member of a particular society, you have to keep up with the changing rules.

Consider this- a year ago at this time it would be very rude to walk into a 7-Eleven wearing a mask because that would display an intent to rob the place.  Most 7-Elevens had a "no masks" rule posted on the entrance.  A year later, it would be very rude to walk into a 7-Eleven without a mask because that would display an intent to spread disease.

On the other hand, the President of the United States often takes offense at people wearing masks in his presence because Trump has demarked  mask non-compliance as a badge of Trump loyalty.

In America, the Right to Free Speech derives from the First Amendment to the US Constitution.  The Federal Government may make no law abridging the freedom of speech.  We can agree that the Federal Government is therefore restricted from banning or censoring any particular word but the Constitution is entirely disinterested in the manners of any particular society and in no way protects people from the consequences of failing to respect any particular society.

So yes, NIGGER is rude in most modern social contexts.  Your use of the word BAN suggest a legal prohibition but I don't think its illegal to say that word anyplace in America or should be.  There will always be social sanctions for breaking the rules of any society but that is not a legal prohibition.

NOTE:
hip hip hooray is allegedly derived from the German phrase “hep hep”, an anti-semtic term used during the riots of 1819, in which the Nazis use the phrase whilst rounding up Jews during the holocaust.
  • "hep hep" was a traditional herders' call in German. 
  • Most of the German Jews who remained in NAZI Germany were rounded up in 1938-39.  The Hep Hep Riots of 1819 were anti-Semitic German Pogroms but there was no such thing as a NAZI then. 
  • The first recorded use of the phrase "hip hip hooray" in English dates back to 1803 although hooray had been around for much longer and hip hip may even be an Anglo-Saxon descendant of the German phrase.
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@Tradesecret
--> @oromagi
This is important.  Republicans are committing acts of terrorism upon my nation  in real time and threatening more and you are buying those terrorists' lies. 

I think you should lay out your evidence and why you find it so convincing.  Here, or a new forum topic or a debate.
I will tell you what I think is important.  Free speech. 

Free Speech does not imply that every allegation must be given weight or every lie given due consideration.  The First Amendment prevents the US Federal Govt from infringing on individual's speech.  The First Amendment does not empower the President of the United States to muster a militia and order it to stop Congress from electing a successor.  Quite the opposite, the First Amendment expressly forbids the chief executive from any infringement on any expression.  When it comes to the results of this election or any other the POTUS is constitutionally required to shut the fuck up- certainly not launch lynch mobs to reverse the vote.

And when a multi-national private corporation can shut down and silence the President of America, then I wonder what about the rest of us who do not have power, money or influence? 
Republicans are suddenly finding religion on anti-trust regulation- about 30 years too late.

This is one of the biggest coups in history
Yes, Trump attempted a coup.
 and most of the Left and the Democrats cannot see the precedent.
Alexander Lukashenko?
Or are so busy congratulating themselves and patting themselves on the back
Democrats practice social distancing.  Republicans are doing all the patting.

that they have lost sight of reality. 
The QAnon party wants us to believe it knows what's real. 
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@Tradesecret
-> @oromagi

Another issue is just what the affidavits allege. Many filed by the Trump campaign don’t actually allege wrongdoing, but rather refer to alleged issues in the vote-counting process. And as The Washington Post’s David A. Fahrenthold, Emma Brown and Hannah Knowles reported this week, many of them have been rather thin:

“Shocking allegations of voter irregularities revealed in 234 pages of signed and sworn affidavits,” the Trump campaign wrote on Twitter.
But a closer look at the affidavits showed that many did not allege any wrongdoing with ballots. Instead, they showed poll challengers complaining about other things: a loud public-address system, mean looks from poll workers, and a Democratic poll watcher who said “Go back to the suburbs, Karen.”
Some poll observers had become suspicious simply after seeing many ballots cast for Democrats — in Detroit, a heavily Democratic city where Biden won 94 percent of the vote. “I specifically noticed that every ballot I observed was cast for Joe Biden,” one observer wrote. The Trump campaign filed that as evidence in court.

The most this proves is that the Trump Campaign was being run by amateurs
This is Rudy Giuliani, the US Attorney for the Southern District of New York who brought down the mob, America's mayor and former Presidential candidate.  Rudy is not an amateur.   He knows exactly what he's doing when he submits hundreds of irrelevant affidavits- he is working to distort the perception by the gullible of the presidential election. To introduce doubt dishonestly where no honest doubt exists.

Statistically it probably is plausible that such a high number of people voted for one candidate. Certainly it should raise alarm bells as it looks like something out of Putin's textbook
No alarms.  Detroit is only 14% white and that 14% skews way younger and more female than National averages.  Trump improved significantly on his 2016 performance but that still only amounted to 5% of the vote.  Detroit's vote is totally in line with national demographic trends.

What it also demonstrates is that the GOP could not organise a conspiracy to try and pull down a government.  On the other hand - the Democrats would think that they - the Democrats - are clever enough to do it. Arrogant people. 
Let's recall that the Michigan GOP created a law that allowed the Republican governor to replace democratically elected Black mayors with unelected  superseding White Republican supervisors at will.  The Michigan GOP stormed the statehouse just last summer and republican militias were caught plotting the lynching of the Democratic Governor just this fall.  The GOP is trying to pull down Michigan's government regularly and recently.  There is no Democratic equivalent in any other US state.  I have no idea why you would  even try to make this claim.

That result is telling. Many people are involved in the counting of ballots. Plenty of them are dispatched to observe the process on behalf of one party or another. And given Trump’s claims about voter fraud in the months before the election, you can bet those who decided to participate would be on the lookout for anything that might strike them as being problematic.
Don't forget too that Biden's office was putting out that Trump received help from Putin at the last election even trying to impeach him for it. Only to have the reports come back throwing it out as bogus.
Well, that's another lie.  The Mueller report stated it couldn't prove collusion because the Trump administration obstructed his investigation. 

The report states that Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election was illegal and occurred "in sweeping and systematic fashion" but was welcomed by the Trump campaign as it expected to benefit from such efforts.  It also identifies links between Trump campaign officials and individuals with ties to the Russian government, about which several persons connected to the campaign made false statements and obstructed investigations. Mueller later stated that his investigation's conclusion on Russian interference "deserves the attention of every American.

Mueller explained that because the President could not be indicted and because it wouldn't be fair to accuse Trump of crimes without benefit of judicial exoneration, Mueller would not accuse the president of the 10 counts of impeachment worthy obstructions of justice in the cover-up of Russian connections but stressed that the President was not exonerated of any of these crimes and deferred to Congress for impeachment.  In fact, Congress has yet to impeach Trump for any of the crimes Mueller documented.  We don't know if Trump can be held criminally liable after his presidency for crimes committed in office.

It is a well-established fact that Trump received help from Putin in the 2016 election and that Trump invited, applauded, rewarded and benefited from that enemy's influence over our 2016 election.  The Mueller report states this plainly. 

Trump was impeached in January 2020 for illegally extorting the Ukrainian government to manufacture evidence that might embarrass his political rivals.

The Democrats are not squeaky clean.  Your point is valid - yet when anyone did complain - what happened? They were mocked - you have no evidence. 
I'm not sure I understand this.  You're saying the Democrats share blame for GOP attack on the Capitol because they claimed no evidence when no evidence existed?

It’s also not something that even the many authors of affidavits cited by the Trump campaign truly have to worry about. It’s significant that they decided to make these sworn statements. But contrary to what Giuliani said, most of them make no conclusive allegations of wrongdoing, and many more don’t seem to constitute genuine evidence — according to the judges tasked with reviewing them.
This may be the case - but it is not the many - it is the some which is important.  Even one statement making one statement is evidence.
In your world I could claim that Tradesecret is a satanic cannibal and then forever claim that there is at least some evidence that Tradesecret is a satanic cannibal.  We have to treat fake and wrong evidence as no kind of evidence at all or we risk suggesting possibilities that have no grounding in fact.

And to say that everyone of these affidavits is faulty or dodgy is - implausible.  It really is. Statistically impossible.  
Crazy BS.  You're saying if I get 100 people to sign affidavits swearing that Tradesecret is a satanic cannibal then it is statistically impossible that you are not a devil-loving people eater?

“If he is talking about affidavits that the swearers will submit or that Giuliani will submit as their authorized agent in a judicial proceeding, they would be at risk of a perjury prosecution,” said Julia Simon-Kerr, a law professor at the University of Connecticut. “If he’s talking about affidavits he’s collected to wave in front of reporters, but that won’t be submitted in a judicial proceeding, they would not subject the swearers to a perjury prosecution.

“Given the disjunction between what is actually happening in the courts and what he is talking about,” Simon-Kerr continued, “I wouldn’t be surprised if it is the latter.”
This is just an opinion and an opinion which wants to believe the impossible - and that is that every single affidavit contained not even a skeric of evidence worth considering. And that simply is too big an absurdity to seriously maintain. 
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum  is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so"

If you or anybody is aware of a single affidavit filed that contained a skeric of evidence worth considering, I have not seen it or heard mention of it. Since Giuliani has not published most of the affidavits he claims show evidence and every affidavit has shown no evidence of any kind we have to treat these claims of evidence as entirely false.
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@Tradesecret
Thanks for that detailed reply.

I agree that anonymous affidavits are not sworn testimony.  They could however  be used as evidence if the person is prepared to enter the court room.  The question in my mind is why are they afraid to put their name to the statement? Plausibly because they are afraid of the consequences of telling the truth.  

More plausibly because they were all composed by Giuliani trying to falsify an appearance of many complaints instead of the paltry few he actually submitted.  Old lawyer trick.

Hearsay generally speaking is not evidence about what happened - unless of course it is used in a sex case or a DV case - where the testimony is provided by someone who is credible. It is not always thrown out. Often the case is that the victim won't speak out - but the person of 1st report is considered admissible hearsay. 
Hearsay is rumor.  When these judges toss out claims as hearsay upon hearsay they mean "a rumor of a rumor"

No one can make a determination that a statement is not sworn testimony.  Who would have that authority? Judges might disagree with the sworn testimony- but this would not determine it was not sworn testimony.   Affidavits are evidence per se  and if sworn are sworn testimony. 
Affidavits are the vehicle of sworn testimony.

For the record - how many actual sworn affidavits have you seen with your literal eyes - not on tv or social media or on a screen? ACTUAL affidavits in the flesh. And then provide your lawful justification for having such an affidavit in your actual hands.  
Well, my parents both died over the last year and a half so I've made some affidavits and had to carry around some more.  Affidavits of Death, Residency, Military Service, financial affidavits, real estate etc. etc.

But how much weight do these affidavits carry? And what is their true reliability?
Has this not been my point?  I take the view that evidence is evidence.  Not all evidence is equal.  Some has no weight or very little weight. It however is still evidence. 
Whatever the excuses made, affidavits never submitted to any court are not evidence.  Most of what Giuliani claimed were affidavits were never examined and could have been anything.  If they were at all credible,  I assume Giuliani would have publicized their content so I  assume they were not at all credible.

The Trump campaign has repeatedly cited the hundreds of sworn affidavits it has assembled. It has even shown stacks of them to illustrate the supposed heft of its legal case. Many of them are not available because they haven’t been filed in actual lawsuits or made available publicly. (Giuliani cited the alleged targeting of their authors for keeping them obscured.)
Affidavits are not always filed.  
But then you can't come back later and complain those unfiled affidavits as evidence no court has ever considere.
But among the witnesses who have had their allegations aired in court, many have been dismissed by judges as inadmissible or not credible. One particularly high-profile one alleged many precincts in Michigan had more votes than actual voters, but shortly after Giuliani et al. raised the issue Thursday — alongside their pleas to take the affidavits seriously — it fell apart.
It is true that judges in each court have the say of determining whether evidence is admissible or not. For you information - please be aware that evidence that is not admitted - is not a ruling that that evidence is not evidence.  It is admissible. And very often good evidence - compelling evidence is not admitted on the rules of court.

Pure nothing.  That some good evidence is sometimes inadmissible in some courts is in no way proof that inadmissible evidence is good evidence.

A key issue is whether the affidavit is filed in court, as most filed by the Trump team haven’t been. Beyond that, any false statements would need to be deemed to be “material” to the proceedings — i.e. relevant to the actual claims. And from there, any legal jeopardy would require that the statements made were knowingly false.
I don't agree.  A sworn affidavit is a sworn affidavit.  To rely upon it - places the person at risk of perjury the moment it is used as evidence.  And whether it was sworn in a court or filed with the court or whether it was made in a politicians office or a lawyer's office is totally irrelevant.  I don't for the record particularly care about the affidavits not filed with the courts.  I certainly however do not agree that the assumption is that if it is not filed it must be false statement. 

No competent lawyer would agree with you here.  Nobody claims that an unfiled affidavit is necessarily false because an unfiled affidavit is meaningless in legal terms.  An unfiled affidavit has the same evidentiary weight as a blank piece of paper.
In the case of affidavits from election observers, for example, it would be difficult to prove that what they were saying was false, especially in instances in which they alleged other people involved in the ballot-counting process said something to them. In addition, statements from those like the Texas security consultant who mistook data from Minnesota to be from Michigan could be understood as an honest mistake or resulting from a lack of expertise in the subject matter — rather than an outright lie.

The Trump campaign’s affidavits also have a checkered history, to put it kindly. When they have been used in court, they’ve often been cast aside.
Not sure what this paragraph is supposed to be saying. 
The Washington Post is reminding readers that the Trump campaign has a long, long history of making false claims.

One Michigan judge noted that the evidence wasn’t direct evidence, despite the Trump campaign’s contention that it was:

TRUMP LAWYER: Your Honor, in terms of the hearsay point, this is a firsthand factual statement made by Ms. Connarn, and she has made that statement based on her own first hand physical evidence and knowledge —
JUDGE: “I heard somebody else say something.” Tell me why that’s not hearsay. Come on, now.
TRUMP LAWYER: Well it’s a firsthand statement of her physical –
JUDGE: It’s an out-of-court statement offered where the truth of the matter is asserted, right?
The judge later dismissed the complaint as “inadmissible hearsay within hearsay.”
Judges have that prerogative.  Actually if the statement above is a true record of accounts - then it was not hearsay.  Hearsay is when I hear someone tell me something about something else.  For instance - I am talking on a phone - and I am talking to Fred - and Fred says to me - It is raining here in England.  If I was to testify that Fred was in England and he said it was raining in England.  That would be hearsay evidence.  Fred after all could be in Australia and it might be raining there. 

However If I said I was talking to Fred on a telephone - and he answers me back. If I said Fred told me something - it would not be hearsay. Can you see the difference?

If Ms Connarn testified that she had spoken to someone - and that person has told her to keep away. That is direct evidence.  It is not hearsay - because she is testifying to the direct evidence that occurred to her.  If however she says - I was speaking to someone and they told me that so and so had told that other person to stay away - - then that would be hearsay evidence.  

Have you actually seen the affidavit material or not?  Your portrayal of it is not sufficient to persuade me it was hearsay. In fact it looks like the judge erred. 
Ms Connarn's affidavit stated that an unidentified poll worker told Connarn  that some of her fellow poll workers told the anonymous poll worker that they were changing dates and when she tried to followup  she was reminded that she was not allowed to speak to poll workers.  Ms Connan further avowed that she was  later handed a sticky that said, "entered receive date as 11/2/20 on 11/4/20"   Connarn didn't even have the original sticky to submit, just a photocopy.  So using your analogy applied here would be you testifying that an anonymous voice on the phone stated that some unidentified people spoke of rain in England.  There were hundreds of people around but no testimony corroborates Connarn.  Why would a lawyer like Ms Connarn not get a name?  Why would a lawyer submit a copy of a sticky rather than the original document?  I suspect because Trump's lawyers never wanted the actual claim to be investigated, they only hoped to add to the rumors of voter fraud.

No serious lawyer would bring this little to court and hope to persuade a judge.  The more likely intent was just to create one data point to doubt in the minds of people who really wanted to believe.

Other witnesses signed affidavits that said, “I believe my vote for Donald J. Trump and Michael Pence was not counted.” But when pressed by judges, they admitted they didn’t have any actual evidence to support that.
I would also press for evidence to support what they are saying.  I would not dismiss it as being not evidence- however I would say it had no weight because it no compelling element to it - save and except their own beliefs. 
Well, now we are down to it.  You admit the evidence is worthless but you still want to call it evidence of fraud.  Can't you see how insisting that worthless claims still be called evidence of fraud is deliberately misleading?  I am saying that there is no evidence of Bigfoot and you are saying we there is lots and lots of evidence of Bigfoot, its just that all that evidence has been debunked.  Then you wonder why people keep saying that there's lots and lots of evidence of Bigfoot.

A similar thing happened in Chatham County, Ga., where the GOP called two witnesses as part of its allegation that 53 ballots received after Election Day were predated to make them appear valid. But under questioning, the witnesses acknowledged they didn’t know whether the ballots were actually received after the deadline, while witnesses for the local elections board testified under oath that they were received on time.

Yet, again - it only makes their evidence less thin. It does not mean it was not evidence. Nor that what they said was not true
Absurd.  The witness observed 53 ballots separated for review.  The witness claimed that these must late arrivals, unaware that ballots are timestamped as they arrive and that late arrivals were sequestered before they ever made it to the counting floor.  When the witness was asked why he assumed the separated ballots must be late ballots, the witness admitted he had no cause.

The Judge refers to this state as "no evidence" 

"there is no evidence that the Chatham County Board of Elections or the Chatham County Board of Registrars has failed to comply with the law"

but you argue that the witness's entirely unwarranted assumption must be included under the rubric "evidence."  Why?  This persistence in mislabeling an absence of evidence as evidence that hasn't been reviewed is creating an unjustified perception that evidence exists where none does exist.


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@Tradesecret
You prove my point.  the case was not a joke.  After all, if it was just a joke, the Supreme Court would not have even entertained it being listed.  The fact that it was listed demonstrates the court itself did not consider it a joke.  
The Supreme Court could not simply ignore a case brought into being at the President of the United States' command and publicized by that President to the maximum degree.  To infer any validity to Texas' claim would be delusion.  The only delay was receipt of the States response: Republican and Democratic Governors alike urged that the justices to "send a clear and unmistakable signal that such abuse must never be replicated".  Pennsylvania called the claim, "seditious abuse of the judicial process"  The 6-3 majority Republican Supreme Court found Texas's complaint "not judicially cognizable," found it did not meet the basic criteria of viability.  Nothing burger.    What the Supreme Court did not say to Texas is Idiot!  Texas benefits from some of the most corrupt election laws in the country.  Do you really want to open a legal precedent where states can sue other states over elections?  Texas would probably go blue overnight if Texas had to play fair.

Let's note that Clarence Thomas' wife tweeted support for the Save America rally on the morning of but later
Yet it like the other cases never got to giving evidence.  No evidence was ever tested in court. This does not mean there no evidence - because we know there was evidence - every affidavit is evidence.
You can't have a court case without sufficient evidence or probable cause.  The Trump campaign had to show evidence in many of the complaints they filed and in most cases failed to produce anything.  Waving around blank paper is not evidence that was never tested in court.  Anonymous affidavits are not evidence that was never tested in court.  All the evidence that was tested in court failed to move a single judge to hear more, even judges who owed their jobs to Trump.
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@Tradesecret
This is important.  Republicans are committing acts of terrorism upon my nation  in real time and threatening more and you are buying those terrorists' lies. 

I think you should lay out your evidence and why you find it so convincing.  Here, or a new forum topic or a debate.
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@Tradesecret
The Trump campaign clearly had sworn affidavits.  This by definition is evidence.
I said, "Trumpists have nothing- no evidence except what they have doctored, no testimony beyond the lies they tell one another."  All of the sworn affidavits I've seen qualify as both.

  • Anonymous affidavits do not count as sworn testimony.
  • Hearsay does not count as sworn testimony.
  • Affidavits evaluated as meritless by an official charged with making such a determination do not count as sworn testimony.
  • Affidavits immaterial to voter fraud do not count as sworn testimony.
I'm pretty sure that eliminates everything you can bring to bear.

WashPo
November 20, 2020 at 3:19 p.m. MST

At their news conference Thursday, President Trump’s lawyers implored reporters to take their thus-far-baseless allegations of massive voter fraud more seriously. And in the course of doing so, they repeatedly referred to the hundreds of affidavits they had assembled as genuine evidence of fraud.

“It’s your job to read these things and not falsely report that there’s no evidence,” said Rudolph W. Giuliani, Trump’s personal lawyer.

“We have evidence that we will present to the court,” Trump campaign legal adviser Jenna Ellis said.

“These people are under penalty of perjury,” Giuliani assured again about the affidavits. “Their names are on an affidavit.”

But how much weight do these affidavits carry? And what is their true reliability?

The Trump campaign has repeatedly cited the hundreds of sworn affidavits it has assembled. It has even shown stacks of them to illustrate the supposed heft of its legal case. Many of them are not available because they haven’t been filed in actual lawsuits or made available publicly. (Giuliani cited the alleged targeting of their authors for keeping them obscured.)

But among the witnesses who have had their allegations aired in court, many have been dismissed by judges as inadmissible or not credible. One particularly high-profile one alleged many precincts in Michigan had more votes than actual voters, but shortly after Giuliani et al. raised the issue Thursday — alongside their pleas to take the affidavits seriously — it fell apart.

As the Trump campaign will remind you, these are sworn statements. But according to legal experts, the jeopardy faced by those behind them is relatively minimal.

“There is a remote chance that sworn statements (if they are actually sworn statements — most documents that appear to be ‘sworn’ don’t count within the meaning of the statute) could subject the declarant to some exposure under the perjury statutes,” said Lisa Kern Griffin, an expert on evidence at Duke University, in an email. “But perjury prosecutions are rare and almost never arise from statements outside of the context of proceedings in which oaths are formally administered — such as depositions, congressional testimony, grand jury proceedings, or trial testimony.”

A key issue is whether the affidavit is filed in court, as most filed by the Trump team haven’t been. Beyond that, any false statements would need to be deemed to be “material” to the proceedings — i.e. relevant to the actual claims. And from there, any legal jeopardy would require that the statements made were knowingly false.

In the case of affidavits from election observers, for example, it would be difficult to prove that what they were saying was false, especially in instances in which they alleged other people involved in the ballot-counting process said something to them. In addition, statements from those like the Texas security consultant who mistook data from Minnesota to be from Michigan could be understood as an honest mistake or resulting from a lack of expertise in the subject matter — rather than an outright lie.
The Trump campaign’s affidavits also have a checkered history, to put it kindly. When they have been used in court, they’ve often been cast aside.

One Michigan judge noted that the evidence wasn’t direct evidence, despite the Trump campaign’s contention that it was:

TRUMP LAWYER: Your Honor, in terms of the hearsay point, this is a firsthand factual statement made by Ms. Connarn, and she has made that statement based on her own firsthand physical evidence and knowledge —
JUDGE: “I heard somebody else say something.” Tell me why that’s not hearsay. Come on, now.
TRUMP LAWYER: Well it’s a firsthand statement of her physical –
JUDGE: It’s an out-of-court statement offered where the truth of the matter is asserted, right?
The judge later dismissed the complaint as “inadmissible hearsay within hearsay.”

Other witnesses signed affidavits that said, “I believe my vote for Donald J. Trump and Michael Pence was not counted.” But when pressed by judges, they admitted they didn’t have any actual evidence to support that.

A similar thing happened in Chatham County, Ga., where the GOP called two witnesses as part of its allegation that 53 ballots received after Election Day were predated to make them appear valid. But under questioning, the witnesses acknowledged they didn’t know whether the ballots were actually received after the deadline, while witnesses for the local elections board testified under oath that they were received on time.

Another issue is just what the affidavits allege. Many filed by the Trump campaign don’t actually allege wrongdoing, but rather refer to alleged issues in the vote-counting process. And as The Washington Post’s David A. Fahrenthold, Emma Brown and Hannah Knowles reported this week, many of them have been rather thin:

“Shocking allegations of voter irregularities revealed in 234 pages of signed and sworn affidavits,” the Trump campaign wrote on Twitter.
But a closer look at the affidavits showed that many did not allege any wrongdoing with ballots. Instead, they showed poll challengers complaining about other things: a loud public-address system, mean looks from poll workers, and a Democratic poll watcher who said “Go back to the suburbs, Karen.”
Some poll observers had become suspicious simply after seeing many ballots cast for Democrats — in Detroit, a heavily Democratic city where Biden won 94 percent of the vote. “I specifically noticed that every ballot I observed was cast for Joe Biden,” one observer wrote. The Trump campaign filed that as evidence in court.
In another case, the Trump campaign’s affidavit was described by a judge as being “rife with speculation and guesswork about sinister motives.” The judge said the allegations were “not credible” and found that the people behind them were simply unfamiliar with how the ballot-counting process was conducted in Detroit.

“Perhaps if Plaintiffs’ election challenger affiants had attended the October 29, 2020 walk-through of the TCF Center ballot counting location, questions and concerns could have been answered in advance of Election Day,” Judge Timothy M. Kenny wrote. “Regrettably, they did not and, therefore, Plaintiffs’ affiants did not have a full understanding of the TCF absent ballot tabulation process.”

That result is telling. Many people are involved in the counting of ballots. Plenty of them are dispatched to observe the process on behalf of one party or another. And given Trump’s claims about voter fraud in the months before the election, you can bet those who decided to participate would be on the lookout for anything that might strike them as being problematic.

But many of them didn’t actually say they witnessed or had evidence of wrongdoing. Even the affidavit about alleged over-votes in Michigan merely raises concerns — concerns that appear to be relatively easy to explain, upon a closer examination.

Vote-counting is a complicated process, and the combination of people with little to no training in that process and people with a clear bias toward believing the election was stolen from Trump is a toxic one. It’s just not one that judges have found to be compelling thus far.

It’s also not something that even the many authors of affidavits cited by the Trump campaign truly have to worry about. It’s significant that they decided to make these sworn statements. But contrary to what Giuliani said, most of them make no conclusive allegations of wrongdoing, and many more don’t seem to constitute genuine evidence — according to the judges tasked with reviewing them.

“If he is talking about affidavits that the swearers will submit or that Giuliani will submit as their authorized agent in a judicial proceeding, they would be at risk of a perjury prosecution,” said Julia Simon-Kerr, a law professor at the University of Connecticut. “If he’s talking about affidavits he’s collected to wave in front of reporters, but that won’t be submitted in a judicial proceeding, they would not subject the swearers to a perjury prosecution.

“Given the disjunction between what is actually happening in the courts and what he is talking about,” Simon-Kerr continued, “I wouldn’t be surprised if it is the latter.”

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@Tradesecret
If they had not lied about the fact that there was evidence about a mass fraud then those who knew that such evidence was real would not have felt so threatened. 
This is an anti-American lie.  American institutions great and small, Republican and Democrat, partisan and independent have unanimously determined that there was no mass fraud in the 2020 election.  Continued belief in mass fraud is exclusively willful self-delusion.  There is no rational ground for the continuation of that belief.  At least Flat Earthers can point to the horizon and say that there is an appearance of a straight line.  Trumpists have nothing- no evidence except what they have doctored, no testimony beyond the lies they tell one another.  The Senate Majority leader and the House Minority leader- indeed all senior leadership in the Republican party except Trump agree that MAGA and Trump attacked the United States Capitol and that Republicans alone bear 100% of the culpability for that terrorism.

All this hedging and redirection and  desperate attempts at justification is  not just increasingly pathetic but also increasingly intolerable.
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Secret, why?
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@janesix
Why are secret societies, like the masons, rosicrutians etc secret? They are supposedly modern mystery schools, and the ancient mystery schools were secret as well. What's the secret, and why are they hiding? I can understand that during the middle ages that they had to hide things from the church, but before and after that? What's the deal?
The original secrets of the freemasons were probably masonic in nature.  That is, the correct proportions and weights and  measurements and recipes required to raise a roof hundreds of feet in the air, the secrets of making an arch or a dome- those were incredibly valuable trade secrets that were worth guarding during the Middle Ages.  As the guilds separated more from church and state,  I think the secrets became more about the promotion of democratic governments- Masons were at the core of most of the big early revolutions in the Americas and Europe.

I don't think the Masons are currently guarding any really valuable secrets but its hard to tell with secrets.


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@zedvictor4
--> @oromagi
And Adolph was a wonderful Guy.....Never hurt a flea.
Well, he murdered his niece when he found out she'd been cheating on him but fleas?  There is no direct evidence Hitler ever knowingly killed a flea.

 Most criminals work hard to make sure they're never recorded actually ordering the commission of a crime.  Hitler never killed any Jews and there is no hard evidence  public or private that Hitler ever directly ordered the death of any Jew or even knew that Jews were being exterminated en masse.  Hitler worked hard to make sure he was not connected to the crime.  To remain intellectually consistent, Trump apologists must argue that Hitler is therefore blameless for the Holocaust.
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Just because I took my pitbulls to the playground and let them off the leash doesn't make me responsible for the dog bites that followed.
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@n8nrgmi
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" (also expressed as "troublesome priest" or "meddlesome priest") is a quote attributed to Henry II of England preceding the death of Thomas Becket, the Archbishop of Canterbury, in 1170. While the quote was not expressed as an order, it prompted four knights to travel from Normandy to Canterbury, where they killed Becket. The phrase is commonly used in modern-day contexts to express that a ruler's wish may be interpreted as a command by his or her subordinates.

Purportedly upon hearing the king's words, four knights—Reginald FitzUrse, Hugh de Morville, William de Tracy and Richard le Breton—traveled from Normandy to Canterbury with the intention of forcing Becket to withdraw his excommunication, or, alternatively, taking him back to Normandy by force.  The day after their arrival, they confronted Becket in Canterbury Cathedral. When Becket resisted their attempts to seize him, they slashed at him with their swords, killing him.  Although nobody, even at the time, believed that Henry directly ordered that Becket be killed, his words had started a chain of events that was likely to have such a result.   Moreover, as Henry's harangue had been directed not at Becket, but at his own household, the four probably thought that a failure to act would be regarded as treachery, potentially punishable by death.

Following the murder, Becket was venerated and Henry was vilified. There were demands that the king be excommunicated. Pope Alexander forbade Henry to hear mass until he had expiated his sin. In May 1172, Henry did public penance in Avranches Cathedral.

According to Alfred H. Knight, the phrase "had profound long-term consequences for the development of constitutional law" because its consequences forced the king to accept the benefit of clergy, the principle that secular courts had no jurisdiction over clergy.

It has been said that the phrase is an example of "direction via indirection", in that it provides the speaker with plausible deniability when a crime is committed as a result of their words.

The New York Times commented that even though Henry might not actually have said the words, "in such matters historical authenticity may not be the point".  The phrase has been cited as an example of the shared history with which all British citizens should be familiar, as part of "the collective memory of their country".

In a 2009 BBC documentary on the Satanic Verses controversy, journalist and newsreader Peter Sissons described a February 1989 interview with the Iranian chargé d'affaires in London, Mohammad Mehdi Akhondzadeh Basti. The position of the Iranian government was that the fatwa against Salman Rushdie declared by Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khomeini was "an opinion". Sissons described this argument as being "a bit like the, 'who will rid me of this turbulent priest', isn't it?"

In a 2017 appearance before the Senate Intelligence Committee, former FBI director James Comey testified that US President Donald Trump had told him that he "hoped" Comey could "let go" of any investigation into Michael Flynn; when asked if he would take "I hope", coming from the president, as a directive, Comey answered, "Yes. It rings in my ears as kind of 'Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?'"




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Bakeries
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@sadolite
So in lite of Twitter and fakebook and Google (privately owned companies) choosing to discriminate against any and all users of their service for any reason they see fit, will bakeries now have the same luxury?
I guess you've forgotten that Masterpiece bakery won that case in the Supreme Court three years ago.  So whatever confectionary discrimination you were hoping to justify has judicial standing at least.

My family actually gave that bakery a lot of business  in the 2000's- my brother's wedding cake, etc.  They did a good job.  Although I am gay, I did not really object much to Masterpiece's refusal and even bought another cake from them after all the publicity started but my people didn't appreciate being served that cake.  There's plenty of conservatives to bolster business in that part of town but their main business model had been wedding cakes and even conservative families don't want to piss off anybody at a wedding.

Six months after winning the Supreme Court case, Masterpiece bakery went bankrupt- the place was a total ghost town.


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Why do people think Trump is a fascist?
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@Jasmine
Here is an interesting WashPo article from before the 2016 election.  Even then, Trump merited 26 benitos out of a possible 44 but consider how radically most of Trump's low scores have swung towards fascism while in office.


John McNeill is a professor of history at Georgetown University.
Oct. 21, 2016 at 4:00 a.m. MDT

“Donald Trump is a fascist” sounds more like a campaign slogan than an analysis of his political program. But it’s true that the GOP nominee doesn’t fit into America’s conventional party categories, and thoughtful people — authors Robert Kagan and Jeffrey Tucker, among others — have hurled the f-word at him.

Fascism was born in Italy during World War I and came to power with the ex-journalist and war veteran Benito Mussolini in 1922. Since the 1950s, dozens of top historians and political scientists have put fascism, especially the Italian and German versions, under the microscope. They’ve come up with a pretty solid agreement on what it is, both as a political ideology and as a political movement, factoring in all the (sometimes contradictory) things its progenitors said as they ascended to power. As a political ideology, fascism has eight main traits. As a political movement, it has three more. So: Just how fascist is Trump? On the fascist meter, we can award him zero to four “Benitos.”

First, the ideological features:

1. Hyper-nationalism. This attribute is not confined to fascism, but it is central to all fascism. Trump regularly promises to put America first and extolls the virtues of ordinary Americans (by which he often seems to mean white Americans). His trade policy qualifies as economic nationalism. By the standards of American politics, he is a hyper-nationalist, but by the standards of historical fascism, he is not in the upper echelon. Two Benitos.

Since Trump's kind words to the  Unite the Right Rally at Charlottesville, I suppose most historians would bump Trump's "nationalism" benitos up one benito at least to three benitos.

2. Militarism. Fascists routinely lionized military institutions and military virtues, and at least rhetorically sought military solutions to political issues. Trump lavishes praise on the troops, as almost all American politicians do these days, and he has proposed (in vague and vulgar terms) a militaristic solution to the problem posed by the Islamic State. He has recommend taking the oil of the Middle East, which presumably would require armed force. But by and large, Trump does not blithely recommend military action and often lambastes his rivals for allegedly incompetent military adventurism. He does not dress his followers in ersatz military garb. Two Benitos.
I'd keep this one at two.  While Trump has tried to project himself as a friend of the soldier and there was that parade he wanted the military to throw for him but the Pentagon has been far more standoffish with Trump than any prior President and the Joint Chiefs frequent assurances that any nuclear action would be checked is proof enough that the present Commander in Chief is a more honorific title than with any prior President.

3. Glorification of violence and readiness to use it in politics. Fascists such as Mussolini thought violence could cleanse and redeem a tarnished nation. They encouraged loyal thugs to rough up, and occasionally kill, people whose politics differed from theirs. Trump scores low here. His rallies, according to many reports, have a frisson of menace to them; he has said things that could be interpreted as invitations to assassination; his followers often speak longingly of violent acts they wish to see committed against others; he has recommended using torture and killing the families of terrorists. But this still leaves him well short of the standard of Mussolini’s blackshirts or Hitler’s brownshirts, who not only called for political violence but resorted to it extensively. One Benito.
This week's attempted mob lynching of Trump's  Vice President on live television leapfrop the Don straight to Four Benitos

4. Fetishization of youth. Fascist movements, even when led by middle-aged men, always extolled the vigor and promise of youth and made special efforts to appeal to young people. Trump, as a septuagenarian, is ill-positioned here. He has no special youth organization to speak of. His most devoted followers are long in the tooth. Zero Benitos.
yeah, still zero.  Three of the insurrectionists stroked out just from climbing the steps.  In fact, it seems much of the explanation for the blobby mob's lack of success was the doughy, even Trumplike physique of MAGA generally.

5. Fetishization of masculinity. Fascists trumpeted what they saw as masculine virtues and supported male authority within family and society, urging women to confine their sphere to home and children (the more of which the better). Trump shares much of this outlook, lauding his own stamina and accusing his female rival, Hillary Clinton, of lacking it. He mocks men whom he deems deficient in virility. But whereas Mussolini liked to hold up his own mother, devoted to home and hearth, as the feminine ideal, Trump’s vision of the proper woman seems to be a supermodel, more in line with Hugh Hefner’s ideology than Mussolini’s. Nonetheless, on swaggering machismo he gets full marks. Four Benitos.

6. Leader cult. Fascists always looked to a leader who was bold, decisive, manly, uncompromising and cruel when necessary — because the parlous state of the nation required such qualities. Mussolini and Hitler, both veterans of World War I, drew their models of leadership from army officers and worked hard to polish their images as dauntless rulers beholden to no one. They encouraged their followers to idolize them as Il Duce and der Führer. They claimed special insight into the will of the people. Trump, although not a war veteran, fully embraces the cult of the leader. He offers his business experience as evidence of his decisive leadership and is very testy when his business acumen is doubted. He also claims to channel the common man, enjoying a connection all other politicians lack. Four Benitos.

7. Lost-golden-age syndrome. Italian and German fascism shared a strong commitment to the notion of national rebirth. Mussolini and Hitler encouraged their supporters to believe in lost (or stolen) greatness, in a glorious past. That could be long ago, as with the Roman Empire, which Mussolini liked to invoke, or only a couple of decades prior, as with the German Reich that was, according to Hitler, “stabbed in the back” in 1918. Trump makes this appeal to a golden age the centerpiece of his campaign, assuring audiences that only he can “make America great again.” Four Benitos.

8. Self-definition by opposition. Fascists defined themselves as the bulwark against various evils and menaces to the nation. Those included communism, routine democratic politics, the traditional conservatism of industrial and agrarian elites (although both Mussolini and Hitler eventually made peace with these elites), and, especially in the German case, foreigners and minorities. Communism is no longer an issue for American politics. But Trump constantly rails against politics as usual, against political correctness, against elites of all kinds (including, curiously, business elites), and he has made a habit of vilifying minorities. He does not advocate their annihilation, as Hitler did. Three Benitos.
Up that to Four Benitos.  ANTIFA, The Wall, Colin Kaepernick, China Virus.  Trump invents or exaggerates every threat to the maximum degree.

As a political movement, fascism displayed three further important traits:

9. Mass mobilization and mass party. Both Mussolini and Hitler rode to power on tidal waves of support that were organized into new political parties. A new party might fit Trump better, but he has not created one. Instead he has made a venerable one, the Grand Old Party, into his vehicle. He likes to refer to his following as a movement, and since the GOP convention in July has rarely tried to brand himself as a Republican. Many in his party loathe him. Two Benitos.
The Republican mob attack on the Republican-led Senate with the intent of harming a Republican VIce-President led by an ostensibly Republican President demonstrates the completion of Trump's journey to Four Benitos.

10. Hierarchical party structure and tendency to purge the disloyal. Fascist movements, like revolutions, ate their children. Anyone who displayed only tepid loyalty to the leader or who showed the potential to outshine the leader risked being purged or killed. So did followers who outlived their usefulness. Trump’s campaign shares this tendency toward purges, but the Republican Party under his leadership does not. And violence plays no role. One Benito.
Like no other politician who pretended at democracy ever.     Four Benitos.

11. Theatricality. In style and rhetoric, fascism was highly theatrical. Film and audio of Mussolini and Hitler make them seem like clownish buffoons, with their exaggerated gestures, their salutes, their overheated speeches full of absolutes and superlatives. Their rallies evolved into elaborate collective rituals for loyalists. Trump does not strut across stages like a Mussolini, and Nazi-style torchlit parades are out, but his rhetoric fits the fascist style well. He constantly calls things and people the worst or the best ever. His rallies feature repetitive chants. Even his studied frown of disapproval recalls a classic Mussolini pose. Three Benitos.
Trump's sunlit super-steroidal unmasking on the White House portico should suffice to justify Four Benitos here.


Add all this up, and you get 26 out of a possible 44 Benitos. In the fascist derby, Trump is a loser. Even Spain’s Francisco Franco and Portugal’s António de Oliveira Salazar might score higher. While there is a strong family resemblance, and with some features an uncanny likeness, Trump doesn’t fit the profile so well on those points where the use of violence is required. Projecting an air of menace at rallies, uttering ambiguous calls for assassinations, tacitly endorsing the roughing-up of protesters, urging the killing of terrorists’ families and whatever else Trump does — while shocking by the standards of American politics — fall far short of the genuinely murderous violence endorsed and unleashed by authentic fascists.
In a more nuanced approach, we might weight the various traits of fascism differently, but it’s not obvious how best to do so. Hyper-nationalism, for example, is more consequential than the youth fetish and perhaps ought to be taken more seriously. But it is also less distinctively fascist, being common to many types of political regimes. A longer list, too, might add refinement and complexity. But Trump does not do nuance. A crude, quick and flippant assessment is what he deserves. He is semi-fascist: more fascist than any successful American politician yet, and the most dangerous threat to pluralist democracy in this country in more than a century, but — thank our stars — an amateurish imitation of the real thing.
By my count we are up to about 37 Benitos out of a possible 44.  Trump currently rates a solid B in Fascism. 
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Pelostomy wants Congress to decalre the President incapacitated
The mote in thy neighbor’s eye: Nancy Pelosi’s hair
The beam in thine own eye: Donald Trump’s hair


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United States House of Representatives Mafia Signups
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@ILikePie5
sorry, /out
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United States House of Representatives Mafia Signups
/in
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Yes to Trump and Parler Bans
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@Danielle
agreed.  no constitutional provision compels any American corporation to help organize treasonous lynch mobs. 
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Protestors were INVITED into the Capital Building - - 57 seconds of uncut video,
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@3RU7AL

--> @oromagi
I argued that "the news" was not covering up the story because I've have seen regular reporting of this story since the hour it happened. 
LINKS PLEASE.



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Protestors were INVITED into the Capital Building - - 57 seconds of uncut video,
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@3RU7AL

--> @oromagi
THEY COULD HAVE EASILY SHOWN THE 57 SECOND LONG CLIP.

WHY NOT JUST SHOW THE CLIP.
I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely.

You offered a conspiracy theory that "the news" had covered up the story of Capitol Hill police allowing rioter passage unopposed.  
I'M JUST ASKING WHY NOBODY "OFFICIAL" IS SHOWING THE CLIP.

ANY "CONSPIRACY" IS IN YOUR OWN IMAGINATION.

I MADE NO SUCH CLAIM.

POST #10 Your wrote: "I haven't heard a single peep about this anywhere in "the news".  I'm actually very surprised my upload wasn't insta-banned by the magical algorithm."

That is a conspiracy theory all by itself- you are alleging that "the News" is working together to prevent this story when the fact is that this story is all over "the news"

Your conspiracy theory stands disproved.



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Protestors were INVITED into the Capital Building - - 57 seconds of uncut video,
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@3RU7AL
--> @oromagi
Why are you so certain that this video must have taken place at the opening moments of the storming in spite of the fact that the end of the video shows the building already filled with rioters.
It doesn't matter when this video was recorded.

Beginning, middle, or end, THE COPS WHO ARE TASKED WITH PROTECTING THE BUILDING DO NOT JUST LET PEOPLE WALK INTO THE BUILDING THEY ARE PROTECTING.
We agree that the cops failed.  We agree that at least some cops seem to be colluding with the rioters on some vids.

Did you notice the protestor dressed in black from head to toe with the yellow cube on their back and carrying zip-ties?

This particular protestor has been singled out by "the news" as a "particularly dangerous individual" and have featured "scary" photos of them.

Now we know how this "particularly dangerous individual" gained access to the Capital building.
I think you are talking about Lt. Col Larry Brock Jr, who was wearing camo, tan pants, black body armor and a green helmet and did carry zip-ties.  That could be him with the yellow square on his back but a lot of guys were wearing shit like that and its hard to confirm.
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@3RU7AL

--> @oromagi
Election Fraud 2020: Capitol ‘Siege’ | Red Flags Point to Orchestrated False Flag ‘Insurrection’

logiczombie is you, right?  So you are citing a source that is citing you as a source?
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Protestors were INVITED into the Capital Building - - 57 seconds of uncut video,
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@3RU7AL

--> @oromagi
The only logical explanation for letting the protestors in is to accomplish a political objective - such as increasing online censorship and directing the tools of US military occupation inwards on the domestic population.
I think the political objective was clear as a bell- hang Mike Pence.

Rioters spoke openly on Facebook of hanging Mike Pence if he did not halt the electoral process.  The President met the rioters, encouraged them to them to show Congress their strength, then the rioter build a gallows in front of the Capitol and stormed the Senate with twist-ties and rope chanting over and over, "hang Mike Pence!" As the rioters broke down the Senate doors, Trump tweeted, "Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution" (past tense)

Twitter has had to interfere to keep HANG MIKE PENCE from trending as a topic ever since.

Why would you look for some other political objective?  The objective has been presented as forcefully as possible short of the VP's public assasination.
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@3RU7AL
Please link to either video of the actual Scarborough footage or some "official" mainstream coverage.


Looking specifically for the quote you cited, I found, secondary, fringe and independent reports of the Scarborough event.

These reports say things like,

"Scarborough drops F bomb",

Who cares?  The story is not about an F bomb.

"Scarborough accuses Capital police of assisting protestors"

Accuses??  Why don't they just show the footage?  Can they not find it?  Aren't they professional journalists??

It's weird to me how easily they can turn a story into a RED-HERRING by trying to make it about "the Scarborough" while obviously downplaying the actual story.

Nobody gives a shit about the Scarborough.  THAT'S NOT THE STORY.

The "best" clip I could find so far, is from "the hollywood reporter" - [LINK]

It plays audio of the Scarborough after saying, "protestors BROKE INTO the Capital building" and then saying, "Scarborough calls for TRUMP's arrest" (which is what they want outrage all day and outrage all night turn the poor people against the other poor people in red hats) and "Scarborough ACCUSES police of cooperating with protestors".

It's not an "accusation".  They're acting like he's "crazy".

They play the Scarborough audio over still images of protestors clashing with police, directly contradicting the audio, making Scarborough seem unhinged and out of touch with reality.

WHY DIDN'T THEY SIMPLY SHOW THE 57 SECOND LONG CLIP OF THE PROTESTORS CALMLY AND PEACEFULLY BEING LET INTO THE CAPITOL BUILDING???

Ok, here's a clip from MSNBC - [LINK]

It's an uncut 7 minutes of AUDIO from the Scarborough rant with the f bomb clipped out.

In the full context, especially with the audio played over "scary" images of protestors clashing with police, the rant itself plays very strongly as a PRO-POLICE-STATE rant.

Make sure you pay attention to the part where they emphasize that "trumppies are cult members" (of course biden supporters aren't cult members, of course not).

I believe this clip also plays well because it suggests that the TRUMPPIES and the POLICE are "RACISTS" (pure rampant speculation, opinion stated as fact).

THEY COULD HAVE EASILY SHOWN THE 57 SECOND LONG CLIP IN THE FULL 7 MINUTES THEY DEVOTED TO THIS RANT.

Instead, when the Scarborough says "the cops opened the doors for them", that audio plays over protestors entering the building through a broken window and footage of protestors entering through a broken door and smashing a window with their fist.

The video very specifically suggests that the Scarborough is speaking metaphorically, as if their incompetence "opened the door".  the Scarborough does devote a good portion of the rant to complaining about how unprepared the police seemed to be.

the Scarborough practically rants, "WE NEED TANKS AND MACHINEGUN NESTS AND RAZOR-WIRE ON EVERY STREET IN WASHINGTON!!!!!"

THEY COULD HAVE EASILY SHOWN THE 57 SECOND LONG CLIP.

WHY NOT JUST SHOW THE CLIP.
I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely.

You offered a conspiracy theory that "the news" had covered up the story of Capitol Hill police allowing rioter passage unopposed.  

"I haven't heard a single peep about this anywhere in "the news.  I'm actually very surprised my upload wasn't insta-banned by the magical algorithm."
I argued that "the news" was not covering up the story because I've have seen regular reporting of this story since the hour it happened.   Since you have now included a clip of mainstream media covering the story early the next morning, I take that we are in agreement that there were many "peeps" about this available on mainstream media.  We should therefore conclude that the reason you had not heard a single peep was because you haven't paid attention to much mainstream media on the subject.

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Protestors were INVITED into the Capital Building - - 57 seconds of uncut video,
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@3RU7AL
--> @oromagi
The police are claiming that pieces are being taken out of context and that most of the videos took place an hour or two after the invasion but it 's hard to know what to credit.
Why would they let people into the building AFTER "the invasion"?

Oh, it's over now?  You guys are all leaving?  Hey, before you go, why don't you ENTER THE BUILDING??  We'll even open the doors for you.
DId you watch it live?  DId you see how there was 2-3 hours of people just milling around the Capitol?  People were going in and out of unsecured doors on a constant basis for hours.  Why are you so certain that this video must have taken place at the opening moments of the storming in spite of the fact that the end of the video shows the building already filled with rioters.

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Mental Health Awareness
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@Vader
sorry for your loss, sup. 

Hang in there, buddy.
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Protestors were INVITED into the Capital Building - - 57 seconds of uncut video,
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@3RU7AL
--> @Death23
Oh well, I'm sure questions like this will be answered eventually,
You seem to have significantly more FAITH in the system than I do.

I haven't heard a single peep about this anywhere in "the news".

I'm actually very surprised my upload wasn't insta-banned by the magical algorithm.
If you haven't heard a single peep about cops breaking lines, clearing barriers, taking selfies then I have a hard time believing you've been paying much attention.  I was seeing video on MSNBC of police moving barriers, etc as early as 15:30 Wednesday and I've heard maybe 30 media packages on the subject since.  The Washington Post had a story asking the same questions as you by 17:30.  This has been a fairly regular news point all over the media since.  Here's Joe Scarborough berating the cops the next morning:

“Why do you scream at people for walking across the street three blocks away from the Capitol? Why are you known as ‘badasses’ around the Capitol but then Trump supporters come in and you open the fucking doors for them?” Scarborough, a former GOP congressman with years of experience in the Washington, D.C., asked aloud. “You open the doors for them and let them breach the People’s House! What is wrong with you?”
The police are claiming that pieces are being taken out of context and that most of the videos took place an hour or two after the invasion but it 's hard to know what to credit.  I certainly think some of the vids  look very suspicious but I'm open to improved context.  Is it possible that some subset of officers were sympathetic to Trump's intent to subvert the election or the extremists' plot to assassinate the Vice President?  I'm open to that possibility, at least.  There's long history of police advocating for more authoritarian government and Trump generally enjoys majority within police forces.

We know that the new Chief and McConnell's Sargent-at-Arms have already resigned.

We know that Trump refused at least two requests for reinforcement after witnessing the CH police get over-run, so clearly out-numbered cops was part of Trump's plan:  did Trump actually go so far as to coerce some active collusion?  I would not put it past Trump.


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This isn't completely serious, but still....
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@janesix
As a man long single I'd say you're lucky to have the boyfriend and the dog.  I find that having others in the house helps to chase most of the ghosts away.
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-> @oromagi
There is little objective doubt that Hillaryous Balloon Girl destroyed email evidence that had been under congressional subpoena.
Investigated 10 times and zero evidence for this claim was ever discovered.  Your lack of doubt is unwarrented by the facts on hand.

I guess your argument then is that Clinton's conduct would have been proven to be much, much worse than Trump's and that all your evidence for this claim resides in e-mails nobody has ever seen?  Does that sound like a well-founded argument to anybody?

That alone, should have been prosecuted [because those emails were DOS business, and not yoga or Chelsea's wedding planning],
Since you admit that nobody's ever seen these emails, why do you claim knowledge of the contents and what those contents might prove?  Why have you failed to advise Congress during all those long and public investigations that discovered little to criticize and nothing to condemn? 

but I have felt the DOJ under Trump has had a lackluster performance, meaning, in my view, that the DOJ has been an under-performer for at least 12 years, and probably longer. That lack of performance has more to do with no finding of criminal activity on the part of Ms. Clinton than any claim of lack of evidence.
You think that Trump wasn't trying hard enough to pin some crime on Clinton?  The way I remember it, "lock her up" was the actual goddamned slogan of the 2016 Republican Convention.   Trump tweeted just a few weeks ago how pissed he is that Barr didn't arrest and convict Clinton, BIden, and Obama although Trump starts to mumble when it comes to explaining why.  We've seen Trump in action: demanding that foreign govts. manufacture evidence of crimes by his political enemies, threatening Secretaries of State with jail time if they don't manufacture 11,000 votes for Trump.  The only thing that has kept Clinton out of prison these past 4 years are the steadfast careerists and the astonishing lack of any substantial evidence.  Are you really pretending that Trump's 300 some tweets promoting the QAnon theory that Hillary is a pedophile does not make 300 horrifying  attempts to invent some crime against her?
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U.S. Senator Lisa Murkowski [R-AK]:

I want him out. He has caused enough damage  I think he should leave. He said he’s not going to show up. He’s not going to appear at the at the inauguration. He hasn’t been focused on what is going on with COVID. He’s either been golfing or he’s been inside the Oval Office fuming and throwing every single person who has been loyal and faithful to him under the bus, starting with the vice president. He doesn’t want to stay there. He only wants to stay there for the title. He only wants to stay there for his ego. He needs to get out. He needs to do the good thing, but I don’t think he’s capable of doing a good thing


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RESOLUTION
Impeaching Donald John Trump, President of the United States, for high crimes and misdemeanors.

Resolved,

  • That Donald John Trump, President of the United States, is impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors and that the following articles of impeachment be exhibited to the United States Senate:  Articles of impeachment exhibited by the House of Representatives of the United States of America in the name of itself and of the people of the United States of America, against Donald John Trump, President of the United States of America, in maintenance and support of its impeachment against him for high crimes and misdemeanors.
    • ARTICLE I
    • In his conduct of the office of President of the United States, Donald John Trump—and in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed—Donald John Trump has abused the powers of the Presidency by attempting to unlawfully overturn the results of the November 2020 Presidential election in the State of Georgia.
      • On January 2, 2021, President Trump violated his constitutional duty to take care that the laws of the United States be faithfully executed when, on a recorded call, he repeatedly asked Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger to overturn the finalized and verified results of the November 2020 Presidential election in the State of Georgia. President Trump misused the power of his office by threatening an elected official with unspecified consequences if he failed to pursue the President’s false claims and attempting to coerce an elected official to commit fraud. His actions and statements on this call amounted to interference with the impartial election process in direct contravention of both Federal law and the laws of the State of Georgia. 
      • In all of this, Donald John Trump has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States. 
      • Wherefore, Donald John Trump, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.
    • ARTICLE II
    • In his conduct of the office of President of the United States—and in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed—Donald John Trump has abused the powers of the Presidency to incite violence and orchestrate an attempted coup against our country.
      • On January 6th, 2021, President Trump encouraged individuals to travel to Washington, District of Columbia with the sole purpose of inciting violence and obstructing Congress in engaging in its constitutionally mandated legislative business of certifying the electoral college resultsof the 2020 election. He incited a crowd of supporters in Washington, D.C. to violently attack the United States Capitol while both chambers of Congress were in session, saying ‘‘You’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong’’.  After those supporters had violently breached the Capitol, he put out a further statement repeating his false claims of election fraud and telling the members of the mob, ‘‘We love you, you’re very special’’.
      • In all of this, Donald John Trump has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.
      • Wherefore, Donald John Trump, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States.
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Senator Ben Sasse [R-NE]:

Trump is flagrantly disregarding his oath of office. That's not in debate.

He swore an oath to the American people to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. He acted against that. What he did was wicked.  The President had a rally hours before this happened where he is telling them to go to the Capitol and to go wild.  This is a part of a pattern. The guy is addicted to division. This is a deep brokenness in his soul.



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@fauxlaw
We already know how Republicans would have responded to the MAGAttack on our nation's capitol if they were not the perpetrators because we have the example of the Republican response to Benghazi.  In spite of ten investigations, one lasting two years, investigators like Jim Jordan, Mike Pompeo, and Trey Gowdy could report no fault in Clinton's conduct yet did not challenge MAGA when it cried out "lock her up."

Imagine if Hillary had tweeted for weeks prior to attack, calling on Muslims to assemble on Sept 11th and to be ready to go wild.

Imagine if Hillary had stood for two hours before the terrorist mob in Benghazi calling on the angry crowd to show its strength and  march on the US compound, with Clinton promising to march with them.

Imagine if, as smoke began to billow out the embassy windows, Hillary cut a video addressing the Muslim  attackers saying, "We love you, you're very special."

Imagine if Hillary had refused to order in the global response team and  simply watched television coverage while Huma Abedin secretly made the arrangements for relief.

Imagine if Hillary had made a video the next day, promising to make the Muslim attackers pay.

Now imagine if the attack was not on some remote diplomatic outpost but on the core governmental body of our Democracy. Imagine if that body was at that moment lawfully confirming Clinton's replacement.

Well, that would be many many times worse, wouldn't it? 

Since we already know that most Republicans support the notion of imprisoning Clinton for allowing the compound at Benghazi to be briefly overrun in spite of the lack of any criminal or procedural fault on the part of that Secretary of State, Republicans must demand the imprisonment of Trump for like behavior many times more treacherous or risk exposing the fact that Republican values have long since degraded into mere partisan loyalty test, totally unconnected to  any genuine American interest.
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@fauxlaw
@Theweakeredge
Ode on the Inauguration of 2021 
 
For the benefit of Mister Joe
There will be just empty rows to see his show,
Obama clan will not be there,
To celebrate the Mister’s hair, shout hurrah!
 
The Biden clan will burn the stage,
Burning Donald’s legacy in real fire,
In this way, Mister Joe will challenge the world!
 
The celebrated Mister Joe
Performs his feat, O, don’t you know, on the stairs.
The Party line will sing and stare,
As Mister Joe feels through your hair; don’t be late!
 
Madams’ H & P assure the public
This production will be second to one,
To be sure, Mr. T censors a tweet!
 
The band begins at six to six
When Mister Joe performs his licks on all the girls.
And Mister S will socialize
With everyone in Lucy’s skies; give it a whirl!
 
Having been some days since winning all
He promises a night of ginger ale.
And tonight, Mister Joe is going to fail!
Off-topic.  You still haven't answered Theweakeredge's question:

--> @fauxlaw
Do you have a substantial objection?

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Donald Trump Jan 6th, 2021:
(heavily abridged)

The States got defrauded. They were given false information. They voted on it. Now they want to recertify. They want it back. All Vice-President Pence has to do is send it back to the States to recertify, and we become president, and you are the happiest people.

We’re gathered together in the heart of our nation’s Capitol for one very, very basic and simple reason, to save our democracy. Most candidates on election evening, and of course this thing goes on so long, they still don’t have any idea what the votes are. We still have congressional seats under review. They have no idea. They’ve totally lost control. They’ve used the pandemic as a way of defrauding the people in a proper election. But when you see this and when you see what’s happening, number one, they all say, “Sir, we’ll never let it happen again.” I said, “That’s good, but what about eight weeks ago?” They try and get you to go. They say, “Sir, in four years, you’re guaranteed.” I said, “I’m not interested right now. Do me a favor, go back eight weeks. I want to go back eight weeks. Let’s go back eight week.” We want to go back, and we want to get this right because we’re going to have somebody in there that should not be in there and our country will be destroyed, and we’re not going to stand for that.

If this happened to the Democrats, there’d be hell all over the country going on. There’d be hell all over the country. But just remember this. You’re stronger, you’re smarter. You’ve got more going than anybody, and they try and demean everybody having to do with us, and you’re the real people. You’re the people that built this nation. You’re not the people that tore down our nation.

The weak Republicans, and that’s it. I really believe it. I think I’m going to use the term, the weak Republicans. You got a lot of them, and you got a lot of great ones, but you got a lot of weak ones. Unbelievable, what we have to go through, what we have to go through and you have to get your people to fight. If they don’t fight, we have to primary the hell out of the ones that don’t fight. You primary them. We’re going to let you know who they are. I can already tell you, frankly.

Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer with his hands tied behind his back. It’s like a boxer, and we want to be so nice. We want to be so respectful of everybody, including bad people. We’re going to have to fight much harder and Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us. If he doesn’t, that will be a sad day for our country because you’re sworn to uphold our constitution. Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down. We’re going to walk down any one you want, but I think right here. We’re going walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women. We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.

Today, we see a very important event though, because right over there, right there, we see the event going to take place. And I’m going to be watching, because history is going to be made. We’re going to see whether or not we have great and courageous leaders or whether or not we have leaders that should be ashamed of themselves throughout history, throughout eternity, they’ll be ashamed. And you know what? If they do the wrong thing, we should never ever forget that they did. Never forget. We should never ever forget. With only three of the seven states in question, we win the presidency of the United States.

Mike Pence has to agree to send it back. And many people in Congress want it sent back, and take of what you’re doing. Let’s say you don’t do it. Somebody says, “Well, we have to obey the constitution.” And you are, because you’re protecting our country and you’re protecting the constitution, so you are. But think of what happens. Let’s say they’re stiffs and they’re stupid people. And they say, “Well, we really have no choice.” Even though Pennsylvania and other states want to redo their votes, they want to see the numbers. They already have the numbers.

You will have a president who lost all of these states, or you will have a president to put it another way, who was voted on by a bunch of stupid people who lost all of these things. You will have an illegitimate president, that’s what you’ll have. And we can’t let that happen. These are the facts that you won’t hear from the fake news media

And for some reason, Mitch and the group, they don’t want to put it in there. And they don’t realize that that’s going to be the end of the Republican party as we know it, but it’s never going to be the end of us, never. Let them get out. Let the weak ones get out. This is a time for strength. They also want to indoctrinate your children in school by teaching them things that aren’t so. They want to indoctrinate your children. It’s all part of the comprehensive assault on our democracy and the American people to finally standing up and saying, “No.”

Donald Trump addressing the same group of people, 24hrs later:

I’d like to begin by addressing the heinous attack on the United States Capitol. Like all Americans I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness and mayhem.

I immediately deployed the National Guard and federal law enforcement to secure the building and expel the intruders. America is and must always be a nation of law and order.

To demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol: you have defiled the seat of American democracy. To those who engage in the acts of violence and destruction: you do not represent our country. And to those who broke the law: you will pay.

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House of Representatives Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerrold Nadler [D-NY]:

I am once again urging that the president be impeached and removed from office. We have a limited period of time in which to act. The nation cannot afford a lengthy, drawn out process, and I support bringing articles of impeachment directly to the House floor.


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Hamilton
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@Theweakeredge
I hadn't seen it or heard it (although I heard about it very often) until last 4th of July, when Disney picked it up.  Man, I sang in the shower  those George III bits for like two straight weeks.  I started quoting it in debate arguments.  I've probably watched it twenty times now.  Yeah, sort of an instant classic for me.
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Ever since the election the Republican party has gone insane.
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@fauxlaw
> @HistoryBuff
Article III, section 2, clause 2 states "In all Cases... in which a State shall be Party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction."  "SHALL HAVE." AS Justices Alito and Thomas dissented in the Texas v Pennsylvania, et al. denial by the Court, "shall have" is a declarative statement of obligation, being the court of original jursidction, and from which, as a result, Plaintiff has no further recourse for relief. It is a mandate which the Court ignored. Standing? There is not elective allowance for making that determination. They are to hear the case, and only then determine results. Your, and thiers, is a cafeteria-style use of the Constitution: choose this, ignore that. Can't do that.
The Supreme Court did exercise its jurisdiction: it found that Texas has no constitutional interest in another state's sovereign right to vote.  Would Texas be ok if Pennsylvania objected to the way Texas forced counties to use only use one drop box- even if counties had million of voters or was fifty miles wide.  The South just got rid of  post Jim Crow federal oversight arguing the Fed had no right to dictate state electoral process, and now Texas suddenly thinks even states should be able to  object?  Are we really supposed to believe that Texas has lost its religion for states' rights?

No obligation to hear every feckless argument  is explicit or implied in the grant of jurisdiction.  If that was so, the Court would be vulnerable to denial-of-service attacks by overfiling.
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Governor Roy Cooper [D-SC]:

This president has betrayed our country and is therefore unfit to lead it. He should resign or be removed from office.
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John Kelly (Trump's prior Chief of Staff and Sec. of Homeland Security):

I think that the Cabinet should meet and have a discussion. I don't think that it'll happen, but I think the Cabinet should meet and discuss this because the behavior yesterday and in the weeks and months before that has just been outrageous from the President.

What happened on Capitol Hill yesterday is a direct result of his poisoning the minds of people with the lies and the frauds


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George F. Will:

The three repulsive architects of Wednesday’s heartbreaking spectacle — mobs desecrating the Republic’s noblest building and preventing the completion of a constitutional process — must be named and forevermore shunned. They are Donald Trump, and Sens. Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz.

Trump lit the fuse for the riot in the weeks before the election, with his successful effort to delegitimize the election in the eyes of his supporters. But Wednesday’s explosion required the help of Hawley (R-Mo.) and Cruz (R-Tex.).

Hawley announced his intention to object to the certification of some states’ electoral votes, for no better reason than that there has been an avalanche of “allegations” of election irregularities, allegations fomented by the loser of the election. By doing so, Hawley turned what should have been a perfunctory episode in our civic liturgy of post-election civility into a synthetic drama. He turned this moment into the focus of the hitherto unfocused fury that Trump had been stoking for many weeks.

And Cruz, by organizing support for Hawley among other Republican senators and senators-elect gave Hawley’s grotesque self-promotion an ersatz cloak of larger purpose. Shortly before the mob breached the Senate chamber, Cruz stood on the Senate floor. With his characteristic unctuousness, he regretted the existence of what he and kindred spirits have not only done nothing to refute but have themselves nurtured — a pandemic of suspicions that the election was “rigged.”

“I want to take a moment to speak to my Democratic colleagues,” said Cruz. “I understand your guy is winning right now.” Read those weasely words again. He was not speaking to his “colleagues.” He was speaking to the kind people who were at that instant assaulting the Capitol. He was nurturing the very delusions that soon would cause louts to be roaming the Senate chamber — the fantasy that Joe Biden has not won the election but is only winning “right now.”

The Trump-Hawley-Cruz insurrection against constitutional government will be an indelible stain on the nation. They, however, will not be so permanent. In 14 days, one of them will be removed from office by the constitutional processes he neither fathoms nor favors. It will take longer to scrub the other two from public life. Until that hygienic outcome is accomplished, from this day forward, everything they say or do or advocate should be disregarded as patent attempts to distract attention from the lurid fact of what they have become. Each will wear a scarlet “S” as a seditionist.


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@fauxlaw
--> @oromagi
Are you enjoying your almost one-on-none conversation?
I'm trying to pop it up to HOT TOPICS
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Rep. Liz Cheney [R-WY]:

There is no question that the President formed the mob. The President incited the mob, the President addressed the mob.  He lit the flame.
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