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Generally, I'm best with science topics and those based in solid policy, so long as it's not too economically focused. I'd say I'm more than decent at social issues as well, though not as strong.
I'd say I'm pretty mediocre when it comes to economic issues and pushing moral perspectives, though I fall even further down to poor when those moral issues turn philosophical. I'm also bad at religious topics. Basically, if it's something where impact is either obscure or non-existent, I'm out of my depth.
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I'll vote Oro. The back-to-back bans on lynching Luna pretty solidly put him in the town camp, and I buy his claim, which means that scum is likely Earth and Supa.
VTL Oromagi
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@Lunatic
What do you mean by “other mime” and what makes you think that?
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Alright, I'm getting caught up on this.
Three people voted to lynch GP in DP2: Oro, Luna and Speed.
Three people voted to lynch GP in DP1: me, Supa and Pie.
Pie's already gone, so if we're basing this on who voted for GP, then there was at least one scum either on the lynch in DP2 or on the wagon in DP1. I have an easier time believing that someone who was on the lynch in DP2 and could already see the writing on the wall was scum, so I think Supa has the best chance of being town. Given that he also seems distracted from the game based on RL stuff, I have an easier time believing he's not as committed to this game as he would be if he was scum.
VTL Supa
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@ILikePie5
Only to the uninformed.Everyone is informed 💀
Then you know the answer.
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@ILikePie5
Anyway, I’ll go with GP as the lynch target for now, given that the text of his role post is identical to mine.Is this another joke?
Only to the uninformed.
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@Lunatic
And yeah isn't Whiteflame confirmed mime?I think he is lolI think he was joking, otherwise he probably wouldn't have included "hidden" in his response. Regardless, he's probably off the table for a lynch regardless.
Honestly thought it was pretty obvious I was joking. I wouldn’t know I was the Miller, even if I was.
Anyway, I’ll go with GP as the lynch target for now, given that the text of his role post is identical to mine.
VTL GP
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@Lunatic
Sure, I'm the hidden Heinrich Mimmler. And yes, Bullish, I'll go there.
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@Bugsy460
I'll take a flexible role and say I'm in as either a competitor or judge.
Haven't dealt with flex time before, and yeah, usually prep has been between 15 and 20 minutes, though given that this will be online and there might be some SNAFUs, I think it makes sense to extend it a bit.
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@Bugsy460
Sounds good. Happy to debate, but happy to judge as well.
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@Speedrace
Yep, do you guys call them POIs too?
We do indeed, same with BP.
APDA allows it, it's called MG spikes or MO dumps if they add a ton of new stuff but is perfectly legal
Yup, sounds about the same as with NPDA and BP. There's usually more of a focus in BP on adding something new in the MG/MO speeches, but that's because they're before the halfway point.
We never really did "values" in APDA, individual debaters will just give framing on what the most important issues are regardless of the topic
Yeah, it comes up in NPDA, but not super often. Most debates are policy, but I've had a few fact debates here and there and a handful of value debates, and most of those (both fact and value) are done poorly in NPDA. There's also a split among debaters and judges about the trichotomy (that certain topics are definitively policy, while others are value and still others are fact), which complicates things further.
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@Speedrace
@MisterChris
@Bugsy460
I do APDASpeaking times are:PMC: 7:30LOC: 8:30MG: 8:30MO: 8:30LOR: 4:30PMR: 5:30PM and MG are Gov, LO and MO are Opp. Rebuttal (R) speeches cannot make new arguments, and if they do you can call them out by calling a point of order.PM gives a regular constructive, LO gives counter points as well as rebuttal, MG and MO are both just rebuttal and defense, then LOR and PMR wrap up the debateYou learn the topic 15 minutes before the debate begins and write your case within that 15 minutes, you use mainly logical warrants
Not terribly different from NPDA (basically, just take away the half minute extras and the times are the same). Just going to add a few things about what makes this different from other styles of debate:
You might note the lack of CX periods. They're replaced by the ability to ask questions during debate rounds (we'll need some way for people to indicate a question without being seen if they don't want their cameras on). There are limitations there as well, though, as you can only ask questions after the first minute and before the last minute of someone's speech, and they have to take your question (usually, a brisk "not at this time" will work for questions you don't want to take).
The MG and MO speeches can add something new to the debate (maybe that's just NPDA - APDA might have a stronger rules against that), though it's generally frowned upon to add a lot, given that they're the second speeches (and especially the MO because they're part of a 13 minute bloc of speeches that the PMR will have to address in 5 and a half minutes). Still, during prep periods, I'll usually partition arguments a bit, giving more to the first speaker and something substantial (but usually small) to the second.
There may or may not be any value in a debate, depending on how the debaters seek to handle it. Usually that's topic-dependent (some scream value debate while others are more policy or fact oriented). We could talk about this a lot, but suffice it to say that I don't believe there are that many topics that are slated into one of these three categories so securely that it can't move around at all.
Usually not a lot of quoting in this style of debate. You can only take notes that you've taken down during the prep period into the debate with you, and 15 minutes isn't enough time to take down big block quotes, so while you can cite someone, there's usually a limited amount of that on the basis that we can't really check your work. Some people do just straight up lie, but that's pretty rare and frowned upon.
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@Speedrace
@Bugsy460
I saw you were wanting to do a parli debate, and I would love to be a part of one.\. I actually do it for my college, so the practice would be great. If you're still up for it, lemme know some way and maybe we can get a forum post going.Absolutely if we can get a couple more people
You know I'd be all about this. Could definitely manage it just by creating two separate rooms for prep in Discord and having a moderator decide on a topic just ahead of the debate. Be even better if we could get enough for a BP round, but that's unlikely.
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Alright, I'm caught up again. With the vanilla claim and a known vanilla already in play, I'm inclined to stick with the lynch on Oro as well, since it smacks of an safe fake claim. The convoluted soft claim doesn't help his case since he could easily have decided on this route early on, and the fact that several people misinterpreted it could mean that he was always leaving the door open for alternative claims.
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@Greyparrot
VTL WF. That was a hell of a lot of scummy counterattacking.
...Counterattacking? Seriously, wtf are you talking about? You're the one who was looking into pushing for a lynch on me, and I'm the only one so far who has lent credence to you being town. Hell, despite all the issues I've brought up, I still said that you lean town to me. No clue what you're getting at.
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Right now, Speed is my strongest town read, and as I buy his investigation result, Bringer (unless he somehow monkeyed with the result) is also very likely town. I'd still put GP down as a slighter town, despite my misgivings with him behaviorally (the fact that he wasn't immediately forthcoming with his claim doesn't help him). Much as I have little reason to buy Pie's claim, the fact that he's going to be the target of the Vig during NP2 puts him off my list of suspects at the moment.
That just leaves Oro, MC and Supa. I don't have any strong reads on any of them, but at this stage, I think it's worth pursuing another claim or two, so I'll pick one.
VTL Oro
You've been awfully quiet despite having been on about a half an hour ago. Supa's been active, and MC at least posted to give a reason for delay. What's your excuse?
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@Bringerofrain
If you are being dishonest at all ,and not a cop please tell me. Telling us you are not cop does not help that much in narrowing who the cop is down, but your claim seems fishy to me for a few reasons. One reason being that you seemed to agree that Warren's interjection into the game town confirmed me, which makes the investigative choice fishy, but that is not the only thing as striking me wierd here.
If he was scum, claiming cop would be a ballsy choice. He'd have to know he'd be CC'd unless scum came with a full list of roles, which is possible, but unlikely.
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@Greyparrot
Not sure why you're interested in lynching me when I'm currently the only person with decent reason to believe your town. Behaviorally, especially given your late-stage clarifications about your role, you have done very little to keep yourself clean, though perhaps you're banking on being able to confirm yourself this NP. Still, you're making me question whether I'm misreading you, and I don't know why you'd risk that.
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@Bugsy460
I think of a primer as a short introduction to a complex topic. In this case, clarifying what a Kritik is, how it functions, why it exists, and how it is generally structured would be good points to cover.
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I'm absolutely slammed at work this morning. Should be able to hop on and provide some thoughts around lunch. Will say that I was waiting to see if anyone would CC Speed, and not having seen anyone do it, I buy his claim. For those who are wondering, the reason I asked him about that is, as I suggested to GP, my role has a caveat that I don't personally see the result. I figured the Cop might be similarly flavored, though apparently not.
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@Bugsy460
Long story shot, Kritiks can still work here, but they are rather technical and many voters may not understand them if you use them. There are also some restrictions on their usage, as you point out, though honestly I don't think that those efforts serve much of a purpose. We could absolutely have a space for them, though providing a primer on Kritiks would probably be important before implementing such a feature.
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@ILikePie5
Just want to be sure. You’re probably right, but given the caveat Warren included in the first DP, I’d just like to know if there’s more going on.
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@Speedrace
I'm the cop, I got Bringer inno
Could you clarify this? Are you the cop, or did you get cop results?
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@bmdrocks21
I'm so confused. How am I known? lol
Heh, you're known to me, at least. Not sure how Undefeatable knows you.
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@Undefeatable
I'd call these rules of thumb rather than just rules, but they're mostly fine (though in general, I agree with what others are saying - that you shouldn't approach any debate with a single established approach, since they may throw things at you that force you to be malleable). It's usually a good idea to come up with some clear arguments on which to base your position before stating/accepting a debate on a topic, though holding to 3 is a bit arbitrary. It's a common number of arguments for debates, to be sure, but it's not strictly necessary, particularly if you have a point that requires more explication or could be a lot stronger if you spent more time digging into it. 1 or 2 arguments can be enough, depending on the circumstances.
The second point is a bit less reasonable. Hanging onto as many points as possible is a common perception of what debaters should do. It's something I used to always do, and I still have a hard time letting it go, but it's more important to win the right points than it is to win everything. To be clear, you should always give yourself multiple ways to win, but that's distinct from trying to win as many of your points as possible. Winning one argument can give you several ways to win by itself.
Cracking the opponent's stance and managing impacts are part of the equation, though how much you focus on either of those really depends on the debate.
The last two are practically givens, basic standards for any posting.
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@Bringerofrain
Dude, honestly, I'm just as confused as he is by your efforts here, and especially considering that I was already sus of both of you, this isn't helping your case. I'm not sure what you thought you garnered out of this, but a strained response is what I'd expect to see when someone is claiming this. Honestly, makes me more interested in what role you have than anything about him.
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@Bringerofrain
I need clarity on this. What is your role? Are you a day cop, specifically, or something else?
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@Greyparrot
I noticed, but the specifics of the phrasing of it stand out to me.
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@Greyparrot
I am even night VIG plus a random message goes out to a random person, town or mafia, that has to confirm the kill.
I can almost town confirmed GP with this information alone. My role has a very similar dynamic to it and I’ve been waiting to see if anyone else mentioned something like this. I’d still like to see GP’s justification, but this is confirmation enough to me that his role claim isn’t fake. Could still be scum, but that’d be an odd caveat for scum.
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@ILikePie5
Gotcha. Ya it’s honestly one of my pet peeves. I strive to make justifications good in my games and because of that it takes a while to make em
Amen to that.
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@ILikePie5
Not saying it doesn't work at all, just saying I don't have to squint that hard to understand my own.
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With regards to lynching this DP, I'm on the same page as Bringer and Pie. I'm normally not a fan of lynching in DP1 anyway, and the possibility of town confirming GP gives me more reason to support using his vig in place of a lynch. I'll leave it up to him to decide who to target, but given Pie's claim, we would benefit regardless of whether he's town or scum, since we'd skip the next NP if he's town.
Unvote
VTNL
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My character had a justification that seemingly makes sense with my role, though I am unfamiliar with my character. So naturally I am a little suspicious that pie doesn't have a role link. Can anyone else confirm if they don't have a good description from their character to role?
The description is pretty thorough. The link to my role kind of works - it's not perfect, but it does have some validity. His summary of that justification reads as a little odd to me, at least when I factor in what I'm seeing for mine.
I give at least as much likelihood that it's a safe fake claim as that it's his actual role. Makes me sus him a little more than I did before the claim.
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@Bringerofrain
Willing to consider it, but given that we are now at L-2 (must've misread the votes), I'd like to see Pie's response. I'll put him at L-1 if he's intransigent.
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@Lunatic
Whiteflame- Because the greyparrot vote and subsequent seems low effort, and is his only real contribution. I am used to more interaction also from town whiteflame, even if it isn't substantive. I don't feel like he is trying to solve the game, and I feel like he is easy to town read when he is actively trying to solve.
Understand this perspective, though honestly, this has more to do with RL factors. Haven't been as focused and completely lost track of this yesterday due to a heavy work schedule and an active puppy at home.
As per usual, I don't find it very simple to "solve" things in DP1, though as I said earlier, I'm wary of GP's claim. I'd like it confirmed, but at the same time, I think he should only use it if he has a decent scum read. Shooting randomly, even if it confirms him, is probably not worth the cost.
I don't buy this business of Supa "lurking" either, especially given that my interactions with him on Discord suggest that he's been more focused on anime and manga recently. More likely that he's been distracted than that he's actively lurking.
Not much to say on Oro or Speed, the former because this is how I've always seen him play and the latter because he's been pretty inactive, which doesn't fit into what I usually see him do as scum (so a slight town read there). Can't say much on you either Luna due to the limited activity.
That leaves me with Bringer, MC and Pie. I can't say who I favor out of that bunch. Pie has been leading the way on pushing Supa, and while it isn't unusual for him to push a lynch this early off of so little, I think the fact that he's still on it when he's getting very little support doesn't help his standing. Bringer has been jumping around with his votes more than most, and while I know the least about him, he seems like he's being really easily influenced this game. His efforts to make it sound like he's town confirmed because his character got confirmed also stick out a bit as an effort to manipulate perception. MisterChris has always been difficult for me to read, but it's his higher activity this game that has me a little more concerned about him. My experience is that he tends to get more involved, especially early, when he's scum. Bringer and Pie are more sus to me atm, though, and while Pie has stood out to everyone else, I'm going to put my vote towards Bringer for now and see how Pie responds to being L-2.
VTL Bringer
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@oromagi
-> @BringerofrainI dont wanna vig np1This makes me think GP is not really VIGVTL GreyParrot
After reading through the past several pages, I'm of a similar mind, especially when it's been pretty clear that town confirming him is the priority. His hesitancy would be understandable under different circumstances, but he doesn't give any reason why he doesn't want to use his NK, and his hesitancy to claim still has me sussing him. I have comparatively little reason to sus anyone else atm.
VTL GP
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@Greyparrot
Any particular reason you've decided only to character claim? That's unusual for you, and for you to only do it under pressure.
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@Bringerofrain
Whiteflame will be hard to figure out, because he acts like a robot in my opinion.
Beep. Boop.
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Heavy hitters it is... a category I know next to nothing about. Should be fun.
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@MisterChris
Hard to beat Forest Gump for an absolutely amazing set of songs, though if we're talking about scores, I'd be between Schindler's List and Gattaca for my personal favorite.
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@MisterChris
The 3rd should be fine for me. Preference is for doing this sometime between 7 and 9 PM EST.
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