whiteflame

Just want to tag Elm on this and clarify that GP does look like solid town to me based on this lengthy exchange.

Is that vote count for GP accurate?

When I get a chance I’ll post something. For now, though I’m sure I did this earlier, unvote 

Long story short: until I hear from Danielle and/or GP, I’m not committing to lynching, though I’m more sus of Danielle.

Lol.

Fine. VTL Pie.

Far as I'm able to tell based on previous posts (and admittedly, I'm relying on Speed to have reported this accurately), anything that is effectively lynchproof would have ended in a NL when we reached 6 votes last DP. That includes roles where reaching 6 votes would not necessarily result in a lynch based on other factors (e.g. the filibuster and gallis). Only in the case of the popular, which just requires an extra vote to lynch, would reaching 6 votes not have ended the DP.

I believe we actually checked on this. If he was 1X Lynchproof, the DP would have ended when we failed to lynch him. Could we get public confirmation on that, Draft?

I've already explained why I'm suspicious of you, and it sounds like your response is basically "but it can't be because I'm vanilla town or maybe just an unknowing miller", which isn't very convincing to me. Similarly, if you want to claim that saying "definitely" somehow outs me when you're the one who's focused more on my use of the term than anyone here, or that my desire for more information outs me as a mafia with an informational deficit, then I guess that's your prerogative. Nothing I've said lends credence to your claims beyond you just reading into my words way too much.

Regarding putting you above Danielle and GP, I have really only done the latter. The order of my post was based on the order of events in this thread. I actually am more sus of Danielle than I am of you for lying about her role. As for GP, I think he just wanted to hide his Hot Potato role until he was able to give the bomb to someone else. I'm unclear on why he chose to mason (which he could still be, but which also made him a target) or why there was this link with Lunatic if he isn't a mason, but I'd have to believe that Lunatic was covering for him as well in order to believe that he's mafia. I don't know why that would happen. So I'd prefer a lynch on Danielle over you, but GP seems less sus than you do.

I don't see any reasoning for why you believe he's a paranoid or insane cop, just that you think he "must be" for some unknown reason. For all your talk about my certainty, you seem awfully certain of what's going on with SupaDudz. Maybe it's because you are honestly vanilla town, but maybe not.

Certainly wish I knew more than I do. That would make things a whole lot easier. I'm not one for subtlety (I think Elminster knows that all too well based on his having town read me), so if I did know something substantial, I wouldn't be hiding it behind my use of the word "definitely". Seems like a pretty ridiculous way for me to give myself away.

Asking if abortion is right or wrong comes down to a basic question of moral systems. There's always the balancing act between the rights/interests of the unborn and the rights/interests of the mother, but even that push and pull comes down to a set of much more basic questions, including issues of when life begins and the extents to which bodily autonomy can be abridged. For all the analogies that people use to relate to abortion, there's really no good comparison without leading to something incredibly convoluted that would never or almost never happen in real life.

So, to answer your question, it is neither right nor wrong. Perception is everything and this is highly polarizing issue for a reason. For all the arguments that people like Checkpoint present that make this sound black and white, there are numerous assumptions that are built into both sides' points. Moreover, I think the fundamental problem with this debate is that it remains almost entirely focused on whether what we're doing now (in a world where abortion is legal) is wrong rather than comparing this world to the one where abortion is either abolished or substantially restricted. Sure, arguments come up about illegal abortions happening, though honestly, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Understanding legal systems shift to accommodate an understanding that the unborn are due the same rights as an infant born into the world alive is essential to this debate, and I don't think that arguing about abortion in a vacuum entirely free of the consequences of legal changes does much for this debate. Even if we all agree that abortion is wrong, it could still be less wrong than a world in which abortion is banned or substantially restricted.

Nothing is "definite" in this, you are correct. Perhaps I should rephrase. I initially found your claim dubious, I have a strong town read on Supa, and I think his cop claim makes sense. I don't buy the behavioral analysis, that wasn't the basis for my post. There's always a reason to believe I'm wrong, but if anything, you're actually doing more to give me a behavioral reason to see you as sus now. You're not contradicting the view that Supa is the cop, but instead targeting his behavioral analysis. I don't think that's the most important consideration here, and I think it's odd that you've chosen to focus in on that. Right now, the only real concern I have regarding whether you are mafia is whether Supa is a paranoid cop rather than just a normal one. That's where my uncertainty lies. So, yes, it's not definite, but you seem awfully defensive against my use of a single word.

It looks like our suspicions of That1User are bearing out. The pure vanilla claim sounded sus from the start, though clearly, vanilla is an option for this game. I definitely do not buy that there are 4 of them, though, and we still have 3, all of whom claim to be pure vanilla. Still, I trust SupaDudz's read on That1, so that sets him above the rest in terms of priority.

I don't know what to make of this situation with Danielle and Greyparrot. I wasn't familiar with the Hot Potato role to begin with, though it appears to win with town, so if Danielle verifies, then Greyparrot would definitely be town. Unclear why he decided to go with mason early on, or why Lunatic claimed to be able to speak with him if he survived the NP (which may have been the reason that scum eliminated him). Also, and maybe I'm just not in the know about how kills are being reported, but clearly Lunatic had a more complex role than just pure vanilla. 

At the same time, we don't know what Danielle will do. Assuming she confirms this, her PGO claim will have been proven false, which makes her look pretty scummy. Not sure how she can confirm it, but if she doesn't, it means one of them is lying. I'd still favor Greyparrot in that, if only because the claim he's making is pretty absurdly specific and easily disprovable.

The role definitely fits, but Croc's pretty behaviorally sus. I'm largely split between Speed, Croc and That1User for votes this DP.

As for Lunatic and Elm, both of them have, at least behaviorally, alleviated some suspicion.

It’s the combination of that with the push for the mass claim. To some degree, That1User is similarly suspicious to me, though this being the first time I’ve played with him, I’m less certain what to think.

People did choose to claim for separate reasons, but you achieved the aim of the mass claim even if the effort itself wasn’t the reason for achieving it.

I find your claim as vanilla to be pretty convenient after having pushed for the mass claim. It might be real, but whether it’s out of sheer paranoia or reasonable distrust, I’d say that if your goal was to unveil as many town roles as possible while giving nothing away, you were certainly successful.

Speed is still the most suspect to me. I don't have a strong bead on That1user, and though I'm not convinced by Croc's claim, it at least makes some sense in a game themed around paranoia. 

Thought the same thing about you in a previous game, and that was in DP2. It's not anti-town to recognize that this massclaim was based on bogus reasoning to begin with and that no one except the mafia in this game stand to gain from my claiming now.

Like I said, you guys can wait until DP2. As Danielle said, I could claim virtually anything at this stage based on the claims made so far, so I don't know why you're all this interested. You have no reason to believe what I tell you.

And I’ll stay that way until DP2.

Been told that before, and I’m saying again that I’m not claiming in DP1. The whole massclaim idea is BS to begin with.

Not sure if I buy it, but unvote

I believe Speed already asked draft if a 6/6 vote with a gallis would still end the DP. Mod said that it would, which means it would have ended in a NL if he was the gallis, if I’m not mistaken.

If I’m correct about this, and he’s welcome to speak for himself to the extent that he is able, Lunatic was unclear whether his unified vote/unvote post was sufficient to breach the 6/6 threshold. As such, he posted them separately to be certain that the vote counted. And yeah, I think his goal was just to test the role. He didn’t want to be party to a lynch based solely on uncertainty regarding that role.

So iLikePie’s role was confirmed twice since the two 6/6 votes did not count as lynch votes.

The mod did confirm the 6/6 vote, albeit with a post that was quickly changed to reflect the change in the votes. We can confirm with him, though.

@drafterman, can you confirm that a 6/6 vote was registered for iLikePie?

Based on that response from drafterman, I don’t think it’s worth trying. That virtually guarantees that Pie is popular since that appears to be the only role one could have that would allow you to reach 6/6 without resulting in a lynch or NL scenario.

Much as I’m largely inclined to vote Speed in general, and especially so given this claim, I think we’re unlikely to get much out of him at this stage. Could push on him, but I’m not seeing much support for that. However, I am starting to see why others, particularly Danielle, are suspicious of  Supa and we don’t have a claim from him. So, I’ll go in on that.

Maybe so, but that's basically true of any claim. As long as it's either not verifiable or difficult to verify, it's paranoia inducing.

I don't need to check with something that quickly verifiable. I'll accept what you're saying, and I already said earlier that I think Pie is town.

I'm not saying that it's impossible for there to be any vanillas, I'm just saying that, unlike with other games of mafia, with this theme, I don't automatically assume there are any. I find the claim harder to believe here. Perhaps I'm wrong, but the claim is impossible to challenge, so it would be suspicious regardless.

So in the case of a filibuster or gallis, it would end even if no one was actually lynched? That's a bit odd, but OK. Appreciate narrowing it down. That just leaves lynchproof and popular.

Pure vanilla just doesn't fit the theme. Maybe there are one or two among us just because there usually are a few vanilla players in each mafia game, but I'd say that's the least believable role under this theme. It doesn't inspire any paranoia beyond just making us paranoid about what you could be. Perhaps that's the aim, but I doubt it would be that simple.

That's the spirit. Haven't met a perfect debater yet, and I'm always working to improve as well.

Guess I wouldn't have much to say beyond what I'm working on for you, then, since we appear to have the same difficulties for the most part. Motivation's honestly never been a problem for me. If anything, I tend to spend more time than I should on each debate - that's the perfectionist in me.

As for defending your case, I'll refer back to something I already mentioned in my response to Death23: do your best to scratch at your points when you're making them so that you can easily find the holes you anticipate your opponent will hit. I find that when I know the directions my opponent will take, I come up with much more effective points on case defense. Like you, I'd usually rather be on the attack, but part of what motivates me is just seeing my own case as one to attack. It gives me a stronger appreciation for the strengths and weaknesses of the points I'm making as well. 

Yep, it would, but this is a Paranoia game, and I'm not dismissing options at the moment. That being said, I'm not calling you mafia. If anything, I'm leaning town with you. I'm just saying that we don't have a clear picture of your role yet.

Agreed in general. Don't suspect there are any Vanilla players in this game, and Popular is at least a little strange. That being said, I think either Elm or Speed (the former more likely than the latter) are trying to make themselves look innocuous to Mafia. I can't explain what Pie's doing, but there are more possibilities than lynchproof and popular at play. Could be dealing with filibuster or a gallis, both of which would not be lynched with the votes we put on Pie. I could see the latter two being more paranoia inducing, and he would certainly want to disguise both.

I'm of a similar mind to Danielle. Not sure why we're mass claiming at this stage. It's DP1, and yet everyone's being pushed to claim? All that's doing is giving mafia easy cover.

As for my reads, I'm still thinking Elm and Grey are town, adding Lunatic to that list. I give Pie greater odds of being town at this stage, but I'm not certain. Speed claiming vanilla doesn't give him any cover and his efforts to further the mass claim make me suspicious of him. Don't have a solid read on anyone else.

Pretty sure that those words are just ones Lunatic has already used and not been modkilled for using. It's trial and error. Drafterman has a word in mind that will get Lunatic modkilled if he uses it, so that may be written down somewhere.

Tempted to test this. Two more votes, people!

Sure, I'll pile on.

My condolences :(

Does that mean you can only communicate with Greyparrot directly after the DP?

Looks like other people have addressed your questions.

As for my reads at the moment, I agree that Greyparrot looks like town, as does Elminster.