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@AdaptableRatman
1) passionate debaters here will suffer due to doxxing potentuality of this, especially as we have not cleaned things up yet but even then users like me live in fear 'islamophobe' comes to mind.
They can choose to opt into and out of it at will knowing what it means to participate. Doesn’t seem like a problem so long as participants are aware that their debate profile name (or whatever other name they go by) will appear on the video and may connect them to other places where it is used.
2) the entire community of mafia here has 0 to do with the site. It is able to be eradicated and the site has to be built for actual 1v1 debating.
Just straight up disagree with this. Just because the site has “debate” in the name doesn’t mean anything else should be off-limits.
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@AdaptableRatman
…wasn’t it your argument that fear of my being doxxed and cancelled led me to stop debating? If that was true, why would it matter what I debated?
And FYI, I did in-person debates for about a decade before I even found this site and the topic range was plenty wide. I didn’t get to select my topics there and I have a long track record with my real name attached.
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@AdaptableRatman
…so you believe that I and others largely stopped debating because someone might be able to tie our profile on here to our actual names and “cancel” us based on our views? Not sure how they’d go about that, but as someone who has done and posted several live debates on this site, that’s never been a concern of mine and it won’t start being one just because I participate in live mafia games posted on social media.
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@airmax1227
@Mikal
I know I’m excited for this. Thanks to both you and Max for setting all this up and I’m happy to take part! Hope we can round up even more people to participate and enjoy some of the frenetic energy of these games.
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Depends on when this is starting. If it's towards the end of the weekend or early next week, I'm /in, but please don't let it start between now and Saturday.
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@AdaptableRatman
The way Pie describes it is accurate to how I've seen it done before. The idea is to punish town for lynching the Beloved Princess and punish scum if they kill them. Double-edged sword where keeping it secret is the best strategy.
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@ILikePie5
I actually clarified with Earth tho on Discord. Like what happens if I hammer a Super Saint. He said DP gets skipped. So I think he just phrased it wrong.
Oh well, yet another way that we were probably doomed early in this game. Even fewer levers we could pull to win than I thought, and a lot of trap doors.
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@AdaptableRatman
Now I know why Wylted baited the NK to Pie, Pie misunderstood his role.
Yep... makes it all the more frustrating we couldn't get that NK off.
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@ILikePie5
If you are killed during the Night, the following DP will be skipped.
AR's right on this one. Would've been bad if we'd NK'd you.
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@Casey_Risk
Honestly, given the circumstances, I think we did what we could. Claims were always going to be a shot in the dark to some extent. Still good being on a team with you again.
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@AdaptableRatman
My dream not having Lunatic in it also messed you up.Had it done so, Casey could have hardclaimed Luna's stuff, tweaked it slightly to a doc variant or something and made it very difficult for Luna and us.
Yeah... we were sitting there unsure how we wanted to handle your Dreamer and decided it wasn't worth the loss of information to stop it. Lost a number of coin flips (Luna's role in particular) that really screwed us.
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Well, we did what we could. Didn't have a lot to work with and it felt like a losing battle after seeing how much confirmation there was by DP2. This game definitely could have swung in our favor if our selections had gone just a bit differently. Casey and I had it down to Luna and Pie as our targets (was considering WyIted, but ruled him out), and if we'd flipped our choices or if Luna hadn't protected Pie or if he'd just failed the coin flip and died instead of Pie, things could have turned out a lot better for us.
Also could've gotten some credit from claiming that I'd Tracked Luna to Pie, but I was a little hesitant to do that since we didn't know if there was another protective role in play or a Tracker by that point. Didn't have much choice but to go for the Tracker claim and hope to get some form of internal confirmation Ultra/Savant. Kinda worked, but a little too late.
FWIW, we would have gone for the NK on Pie, so that would have cost town a DP. Didn't know he was the Beloved Princess (we were considering that as a claim for Casey), but it wouldn't have won us the game regardless since we just would have been at 2-1 instead of 3-1. Oh well.
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@Mikal
Logically I think it’s you. Same POE I had last day phase. Only thing that is throwing me is the bodyguard. But like I said. Pretty sure it just meant Luna had a 50 percent to live and basically be a doc.
My understanding is that the role functioned like a half-doc, half-BG, so he either survives and protects or dies and protects. Seems like scum wanted to leave that unclear, but I'm not sure for what reason.
And yeah, completely understand that PoE puts me in the hotseat. I have one result that's been confirmed and my claim. AR would have to have made some very ballsy moves this game with the claimed Dreamer and the result. It wouldn't be a first to see it, but it's still hard to believe he'd take that risk.
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@AdaptableRatman
So to me its definitely WF. To others I am viable janitor-roleblock hybrid.
I've been pretty certain you're town from DP1, so I'm also hesitant to buy you as scum here, even though that appears to be what we're down to by PoE.
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@Mikal
So just to be clear about where I was coming from with Alduin's involvement in the split, he is the only dragon I know from Skyrim and the central antagonist of the game. It's possible that Earth went with a more complex theme split, but given that Casey clearly did fake claim their character and he was only a follower of Alduin, that strongly suggests that alignment with Alduin (and possibly Alduin himself) are scum in this game. Can't be dragons vs. not since we have Casey's flip. I don't think Greybeards vs. not works because Luna was a former Greybeard, so that would make the split a little strange.
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...Seriously? I hop online and the DP's already over. Looks like we're in Twilight so I guess I can still talk, but damn, things moved quickly this morning.
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I'm not clear on why scum decided to Janitor Luna, either. Everyone had already claimed and he had full claimed too, so I don't get the point of doing it.
Anyway, I'm flagging fast and I'd also prefer to Mikal to be online before pursuing this any further. I'll return to this in the morning.
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@AdaptableRatman
Scummy to hide, since we would be wanting your report the next day if this was wrong amd wrongly vote you off if you are real.
I can see circumstances where it could end up mattering how many shots I have left, given that we could NL. Wouldn't call it scummy to be prepared for that, but I understand this is about reads as well.
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@AdaptableRatman
Don't really love giving away the info, but fine: it's a 2X.
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@AdaptableRatman
Are you 2x or unlimited
Do you really want me to respond to that?
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That lack of sleep is really catching up with me. I can stay on for a bit, but I'm going to have to call it here soon. Two more votes are required to execute this lynch, I'm just not going to jump onto it so quickly in my current state, not without everyone else weighing in.
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@ILikePie5
As I said to Savant, I got RB'd. No results, I'm afraid.
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@Savant
So, just to be clear, you're confirming that you (when Ultra was in control) did not do anything NP1?
I understand targeting Mikal since he's necessarily in PoE and I still don't get how his role works with WyIted's apparently confirmed Deputizer. That still rubs me the wrong way.
Also, unfortunately, no results this DP: I got RB'd. Tried to target RM.
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@AdaptableRatman
Alduin is definitely in the game imo. Scum fakeclaimed
I agree, so I don’t see much point in establishing a theme split with faked characters. There likely isn’t one.
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@AdaptableRatman
WF why say that and not track?
Because that’s a given? Either you trust that I’m the Tracker or not. Repeating that that is my night action isn’t netting me any gold stars.
Give me a theme split that makes all townies fit you as well
I think Alduin has something to do with the theme split, though his absence from the game makes it hard to derive one. Scum likely have faked their character claims at minimum.
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As for what else has been said, I’ll remind those who have discussed it that, yes, I paraphrased my PM.
And as for everyone who has argued what I should do with my role, all taken under consideration.
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I think I’m good to hammer whenever. Just let me know if you want to wait for Ultra to post.
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Alright then, don’t want to risk not getting this out so catching up fully will have to wait:
I’m Aela. I’m a werewolf, member of The Circle and The Companions. I was in love with another werewolf named Skjor, who was slaughtered by the Silver Hand. It was my aim to track down the murderers, therefore I’m the Tracker. I Tracked Ultra last DP, he did not move.
At least from what I could breeze through so far, I’m good with hammering Casey. If anyone has questions, I’ll wait to answer them and catch up first.
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Catching up. Can someone give me a vote count on Casey? The lynch seems justified, but I want to get my claim up as soon as I get caught up and I want to make sure the DP doesn’t end before then.
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Got enough on my plate this afternoon that I'm going to have to step out for a bit. If we can sort this out in some way that makes sense when I return, I'll full claim and we can move on.
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@Mikal
I was thinking from a balance thing on DP1 if I targeted wylted, it may have be designed for me and a (scum if wylted added them) to 1v1. Cus they could nk wylted and fake results. I could be the way to balance that.
Still seems off to me, gives town an awful lot of investigative results, specifically alignment-based, and then a means to check that could theoretically apply to everyone WyIted recruits since they all receive results? Either it offers you an excess of opportunities to use your role to confirm basically everyone WyIted recruits or it just creates a group of people who receive results instead of just being part of a Mason group for no reason beyond... I guess Earth really wanting to excessively and internally confirm WyIted within the group he recruits? So town has both an excess of investigatives and simultaneously a lot of internal confirmation?
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@ILikePie5
He’s the Deputizer. He can invite someone to a private PM and then investigate people. I don’t know how many times he can do that (I asked him not to tell me and cause I frankly don’t care) to keep scum guessing. Whatever results he gets, I get as well. Earth literally in our discord channel said XXXX is innocent.
So he recruited you during the DP, then investigates and those results are delivered to the group? I can't say I buy that, man. I had reason to allow it in DP1 because I felt there was a purpose to it, but it sounds particularly strange for this game, particularly with a Forensic Investigator in play. If you died and Mikal used his role on you, how would that work? You'd technically have received results, even though you are yourself not the investigative role.
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@ILikePie5
Wylted and I still have another reason to suspect that Casey is scumLunatic is 95% confident I’m town, and I’m 99% sure Wylted is town
To a certain degree I trust you, I just can't say I trust what I'm seeing from WyIted. Feels like I'm missing something, if not several hints as to what's going on.
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@Mikal
Would you be willing to full claim. I have a feeling it will help poe.
I'm willing to full claim, but I'd prefer to get some clarity on WyIted's role in particular beforehand.
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@ILikePie5
My Martyr functioned like this: Because of this, you are the Martyr. Once per game at night, you may choose to sacrifice yourself. All night actions will fail that night. You win with the Town.
That's not how I recalled it and this made me question my memory, so I checked back. Here's how you described the role:
"Because of all this, you are the Martyr. If you ever die in the night, all lethal actions in the subsequent night will be negated. You win with the Town."
I agree, that's more akin to the Virgin role as described elsewhere. It was a rather specific choice in that game to call it "Martyr."
Plus as Wylted said, there’s a reason to seriously doubt this.All 3 of me, Luna, Wylted can’t be scum.
I don't know why that's true, but I trust that that perception comes from some role or roles I'm not yet privy to.
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Apologies in advance for what is almost certain to be a rambling post. Coffee can only do so much.
So we have a few pieces of information we have to consider, the first being the absence of an NK. That almost certainly means the NK failed. I can't see a reason why scum would just forfeit the NK in NP1 beyond some crazy mechanics that I have seen like once in previous games (e.g. Arsonist). I'm not fishing for a protective role, but I think we can assume someone was successfully protected.
Second, we've got the Dreamer list, which at least helps with PoE to some extent. We know there is at least one scum between Casey, Mikal and WyIted.
On that note, we have a few claims. WyIted already claimed this Deputizer role, though Pie has said he's just straight up the Cop, but there's still somehow a Mason involved? I'm still unclear on this. Casey has now claimed Martyr (I recognize this version from a previous game - I think it was Pie's game, pretty sure I received it, lack the bandwidth this morning to go back and check), which WyIted claims he can dispute somehow. Mikal says he's a Forensic Investigator, which functions similar to the Pathologist role I ran last game (just with who they targeted rather than what results they received). I don't know much about their characters, but from my limited search, Serana does seem to be setup as a sacrifice and Elenwen interrogates prisoners (and Mikal mentioned a dossier), so there's at least something to both of them even if it's pretty weak. Less clear on the link between Balgruuf and the Cop role. I am, however, not going to focus on the timing WyIted was online vs. Earth. That's not something I can verify at this point and it's stretching the limits of what we should be considering for this game anyway.
I know there's a lot of discussion about the possibility of fake claims and I don't think it gets us anywhere. I'm functioning under the assumption that what Earth said in the sign-up thread is gospel. I don't think he changed his mind on a whim and didn't mention it.
Apart from that, Luna seems very confident that Pie is town. Not sure how he knows that, but maybe I'm missing subtext. Pie certainly seems confident that WyIted is town, which suggests that they have some connection (would be explained by the day Mason), even if it has yet to be confirmed. I don't think they'd buddy each other this hard as a scum team, especially not this early.
I do think it's really odd that we even got Dreamer results. Doesn't make a lot of sense that scum didn't do anything to prevent that knowing it only takes a visit.
Anyway, initial take-away is that I've got problems with both Casey's and WyIted's claims, the former because it seems torn directly out of a previous game and seems to function chiefly as an explanation for why they wouldn't be targeted during the NP, and the latter because their claim still doesn't make sense to me, even with Pie's confirmation. I believe that they have reason to townread each other, but I can't help but be suspicious of a claim that looks particularly strange, especially compared with everything else on the table so far. Outside chance this is another Dreamer gambit like the one Luna pulled a couple of games back, but RM would have risked a lot to do it since anyone could have claimed to visit him.
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I got an absolutely awful night's sleep, so I will catch up on this DP... after I've injected caffeine into my veins and my vision is no longer double.
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Got another early morning, so I have to call it here for tonight. I'll come back to this in the morning.
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@Mikal
When I was pressuring you a few games back two games in a row. You got to a spot where you told me to fuck off and just lynch you basically. Everyone gets there. My point is lynching him to prove a point is something scum would do or allow to happen
Responding with this really bugs me, dude. Yes, I got pissed. Yes, I said just to lynch me. Note that, despite all that, I still full claimed and made a case for myself. I understand where Savant's coming from all the more because of that experience, but that doesn't mean I condone his decision to continue to be intransigent. You can disagree with that take, but Pie and Luna are right that Savant is just going to exist in permanent PoE if he continues past this DP, and RM is at least correct about how the numbers game is going to work if we try to form a separate wagon.
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@Mikal
So the argument is lynch a person you town read to prove a point or lynch a person you town read because after (24 hours) you think we won’t get another lynch because RM is being stubborn. You know we don’t need RM to Lynch anyone. You just ignore him and move on.I’m not sure I buy either of these as plausible or something you would do. Maybe more the first but I feel like you genuinely town reading him is a reason to resist a policy lynch.
I didn't say I'm taking this stance because RM, specifically, is stubborn. He's not the only one on this wagon. If he was, I probably would just move on.
This is hardly the first time I've set aside my own read to achieve something in a DP rather than just being the one who refuses to go along. I spent a great deal of yesterday pushing back against this lynch, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that my opposition is doing anything valuable when I don't have any scumreads.
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@Mikal
WhatYou behavior read him as town but are just conceding because RM is being stubborn. Nah I don’t buy that
You can call it a concession, but I recognize that being intransigent about my own reads may well cost us the ability to even get a lynch this DP. That, and I think Pie and Luna in particular have a good point about how it's a pretty bad precedent to set that anyone can just skate by without claiming at L-1 if they're frustrated enough with how previous games have gone.
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@Mikal
Wf is non committal and is willing to kill savant when he said before he wasn’t sold and read the frustration wa genuine
I've made clear what my reason is for pursuing Savant's lynch at this point. It's also been made very clear to me, multiple times by Pie, AR and Luna, that we're almost certainly not getting out of this DP with a lynch if it isn't on Savant. I still think he's behaviorally town, but I'm not just going to refuse to vote him based on my own read.
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Fine, I'll let others decide on who should do the hammer.
VTL Savant
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@Lunatic
@ILikePie5
@WyIted
@AdaptableRatman
Vote Savant please. Ignore Wylted.
I don't know why you have a problem with my saying that I'll be the hammer. I've tagged all the people either on this vote or who have said they would be. If we get to four votes and everyone's good with it, I'll hammer.
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@AdaptableRatman
Vote Savant please.
See my response to WyIted.
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@WyIted
Whiteflame needs to hammer savant just in case savant is town and trying to draw a lynch.
I'm willing to hammer Savant at this point, so it's mainly a matter of when. It's become clear that a lot of people support the massclaim idea. I still oppose it, but I'm not just going to unilaterally end the DP to get my way. If enough people want the massclaim, I'll wait for the time, claim, and then hammer after that.
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